Non-motoring > Coronavirus - Volume 18   [Read only]
Thread Author: VxFan Replies: 160

 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - VxFan

Ongoing debate.

607465
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 18 May 20 at 03:01
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Duncan
Charlie Brooker.

You might not like him.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000j4bl/charlie-brookers-antiviral-wipe
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - sooty123
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52686519

Seems like most people have been pretty sensible about going out and about.

In that article though it states you can travel as far as you like in England, yet the police are stopping cars on the roads into Brighton. Can local councils in England decide to go against government advice?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
Don't think councils can really control what the police do can they?


I can see why some areas would be pi$$ed off with an influx of visitors, whether it be long or short term. I think I'd get a bit antsy if there was some attraction round here which meant we were suddenly swamped with people - potentially bringing risk and also using "my" local amenities, which hadn't been available to me for some weeks.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Bromptonaut
>> Don't think councils can really control what the police do can they?

IIRC control of Police transferred from County or Unitary Councils to elected Police and Crime Commissioners during the coalition era. I would however expect there to be channels by which the councils are involved in how the PCC determines priorities.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - sooty123
>> Don't think councils can really control what the police do can they?

I was more thinking about the legality of the police stopping people on the way into Brighton, for example. Under what law can they stop them and turn them around?

I appreciate it didn't say motorist were turned around, but from the councils comments it would be something they'd support.



>>
>> I can see why some areas would be pi$$ed off with an influx of visitors,
>> whether it be long or short term. I think I'd get a bit antsy if
>> there was some attraction round here which meant we were suddenly swamped with people -
>> potentially bringing risk and also using "my" local amenities, which hadn't been available to me
>> for some weeks.
>>

I honestly don't think it would bother me.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
>I think I'd get a bit antsy if there was some attraction round here which meant we were suddenly swamped with people

There's surely some comment about all these businesses who rely on tourists for their revenue in the good times?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
Absolutely!

I'm not a business though :-)


I read a forum entry from a Cornwall resident and he reckoned there were only enough hospital beds for the people who live there.

EDIT In fact last time I reported that here (11 May, in this thread!!), I said pretty much what you said.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 17 May 20 at 19:20
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
I can see them now with their pitchforks baying for the witch burning.

I think each one should be asked to identify the business that they work for so that in future people can make a decision about which they will use when this is over.

I wonder how many of them would suddenly go quiet. Or get fired.

       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Manatee
>> >I think I'd get a bit antsy if there was some attraction round here which
>> meant we were suddenly swamped with people
>>
>> There's surely some comment about all these businesses who rely on tourists for their revenue
>> in the good times?

I do think some are being a bit sulky. I have relatives in Northumberland and some of the locals are practically out with pitchforks in Rothbury. The fact is that people will go to places they know.

We decided mid-week that if the weather was good this weekend we would stay in. The boss went up to the fire damaged house today to clear up some possessions that are still up there. She said she had never seen Tring Reservoirs so busy with people queuing to park on both sides of the road and all the verges. It's not exactly the Taj Mahal. When you've walked round the ressy and fed the ducks that's it.

Quite how you predict the quiet places I don't know.

       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
We've used a fair few walks round this way over the past 2 years, and learnt which are popular and which less so. Having said that we misjudged one yesterday - we usually see no-one on it but came across probably 10 sets of cyclists and other walkers in the or so 5 miles.

Having said that we usually don't walk a lot at weekends in normal times... it may always be busier at weekends but there are def more people out walking these days.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Zero

>> I do think some are being a bit sulky. I have relatives in Northumberland and
>> some of the locals are practically out with pitchforks in Rothbury.

Didn't stop Raul Moat going there, did it.


>> that are still up there. She said she had never seen Tring Reservoirs so busy

Why? Its a boring pimple on the landscape, why go there when you have the Chilterns so close?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Manatee

>> Why? Its a boring pimple on the landscape, why go there when you have the
>> Chilterns so close?

My point exactly, although it's pleasant enough walking round Startopsend. Perhaps all those people thought it would be quiet.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Zero
Your community shop, Its not Wilstone is it?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Manatee
Yes. Although I was 'laid off' for being vulnerable. You know it?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Zero
>> Yes. Although I was 'laid off' for being vulnerable. You know it?

Yer, I go dog training in the village hall once a month, and raid the shop for lunch. The cheese and bacon tartlet things are historic.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 17 May 20 at 22:24
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - legacylad
Is that a posh way of saying stale ?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Manatee
>> Is that a posh way of saying stale ?

I did wonder. They aren't, but they are a most unattractive looking savoury. I prefer the volunteer-made made sausage rolls but I don't eat them very often, they land a bit heavy.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Zero
>> >> Is that a posh way of saying stale ?
>>
>> I did wonder. They aren't,

No Not stale,

>> but they are a most unattractive looking savoury

Yes not good looking, but very tasty with ferociously salty bacon. .

>> the volunteer-made made sausage rolls but I don't eat them very often, they land a
>> bit heavy.

Bit Dry.


We call our dog training group "the coven"
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
Currently there are 243,403 confirmed cases and 34,636 deaths.

If there had been no, or at least less, publicity or recognition of COVID-19, then I wonder how many of those would have ever been detected.

I wonder what percentage for the 243,403 would have just assumed that they had flu or something similar and how many of the 34,636 would have been put down to other causes.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
I am one of those deemed vulnerable. I don't want to keep myself isolated forever.

So it occurs to me that it is entirely to my advantage if the lemmings get out there and crawl all over each other and pass the virus amongst themselves as quickly and thoroughly as they can.

It can only shorten the amount of time the rest of us need to stay isolated; 2 weeks incubation, two weeks to die or recover, a month from now the sensible ones could be free.

I recommend all people at illegal gatherings and flaunting safety are encouraged to get even closer whilst the rest of us watch and keep safe.

We might even get the country's average IQ up at the same time.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 17 May 20 at 20:54
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Haywain
"So it occurs to me that it is entirely to my advantage if the lemmings get out there and crawl all over each other and pass the virus amongst themselves as quickly and thoroughly as they can."

Entirely my thoughts - that is why I have been spending the weekend in the garden. On Friday afternoon, though, I did venture out to attend a funeral of an old friend. When I first arrived in E Anglia in '75 to take on a new job, I was keen to find someone who appreciated motorbikes - and John was my man, along with his two sons. At 18 years my senior and a divisional director, John was approaching my father's generation whilst I was 7 or 8 years older than his boys. The years passed and our last outing, to Bury Jazz Club, was about 4 years ago - very soon after that, John's memory deteriorated rapidly and he developed Alzheimers.

About a fortnight ago, I received the message that John had passed away and that, as only immediate family were allowed at the funeral, friends were invited to pay their respects by walking behind the hearse for a couple of hundred yards as it passed through the village. Then, on the day before, the funeral director phoned to say that the number allowed at the crem had been raised to 24. So we duly gathered in the village as previously planned and formed up behind the hearse as it passed through the village playing loudly 'On the sunny side of the street'. Then there was a pause for a quick count-up then we drove after the hearse for the 12 miles or so to the crem.

There was another head-count outside the chapel and friends were ushered inside. Chairs had been carefully laid out in ones and twos, all distanced at 2m. Chairs at the front were placed more closedly together for relatives. Some words were said, some jazz was played - it was all very quick and simple and, frankly, that's all that was needed - I don't imagine that John would have wanted any more, coronovirus or not!

       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Duncan
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52678750
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Haywain
"www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52678750"

There was no hugging, kissing or shaking hands; social distancing was maintained at all times.

Talking of social distancing, here's another appropriate tune from the guitarist's guitarist .....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglnFbq6ybI

and if you want to hear him messing about on a Strat, turn the volume up for this Cream cover....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGzVHBrUKw

       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
You may have seen that Brazil's infection figures are shooting up along with their president saying it's only flu and campaigning against any lockdown restrictions.

What is perhaps not generally know is that Brazil *only* tests people when they are actually hospitalised. God only knows what the real figures are like.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - sherlock47
Brazil *only* tests people when they are actually hospitalised.

I wonder where they got that idea?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
There is *no* other testing. Not even in A&E. Seems a bit pointless to me.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Duncan
>> You may have seen that Brazil's infection figures are shooting up along with their president
>> saying it's only flu and campaigning against any lockdown restrictions.



www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/brazil/
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
I know, you know, but their president seems not to.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Business Outlook - zippy
I have just been catching up on some reports before I go back to work tomorrow.

Generally, business turnover has dropped a further 4% in the last month - above the 33% reported previously.

Most companies are still trying to pay suppliers and loan levels are actually reducing - companies are actually drawing less.

Some credit insurers are keeping limits in place or reducing them to used levels (unused limits stop other suppliers getting them). Some credit insurers are reducing limits to zero across the board - I suspect they will leave the market.

Retailers. There is a real mix. Some are paying to terms or more promptly to help suppliers. Others are paying on terms of over 250 days! Others are taking (not agreed) deep discounts of up to 40%!

The worst companies tend to be regulated utility companies. Some are taking exceptionally long terms and not accepting late payment on the other side what so ever. There have also been examples of attempted hostile takeovers - i.e. not paying then when the company calls administrators, offering to buy the business at a huge discount, often less then the debt owed by the utility.
Last edited by: zippy on Sun 17 May 20 at 22:54
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - zippy
My brother is a manager at a large regional sorting office for RM.

There have been deaths from CV19 amongst the staff at the office and sorting machines are not being repaired as suppliers refuse to visit. The result is that mail is being sorted by hand. Gloves are not been worn as they slow down the staff.

Disinfect letters and parcels guys.

       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - legacylad
How exactly ?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - zippy
>> How exactly ?
>>

Disinfectant spray?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
I guess it's not impossible, but catching it from letters doesn't seem very likely.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
Maybe but all my post goes in the garage for 3 days, and has done pretty much since the start. We don't seem to receive anything "urgent" through the post so why not?

I did buy a sticker for the front door saying addressed mail only, no menus, circulars blah blah which seems to work.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - CGNorwich
How will you decide when you believe it safe to stop the practice?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Duncan
>> Maybe but all my post goes in the garage for 3 days, and has done
>> pretty much since the start. We don't seem to receive anything "urgent" through the post
>> so why not?

And if you haven't become infected then that shows that it works - doesn't it?

Surely, that's all the proof you need.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
"And if you haven't become infected then that shows that it works - doesn't it?" That'll do for me.

Not sure when I'll stop doing it, I doubt it will be soon as I don't see the problem with doing it - but I'm not that hung up on it. What post am I not getting that is so urgent it can't wait a few days? Excluding advertising mailshots, I doubt I get one letter a day on average.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Duncan
>> Not sure when I'll stop doing it, I doubt it will be soon as I
>> don't see the problem with doing it - but I'm not that hung up on
>> it.

A technique that I have found to be effective is to throw small rolled-up balls of paper on the ground as I move about.

It's a method that has worked for me, so I will keep on doing it.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
That'd be plain stupid :-)
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
>>We don't seem to receive anything "urgent" through the post

Out of interest, what do you get through the post?

I don't think I get more than 2 or 3 things a year which matter to me, and that's no more than the very occasional legal document. (Packages being a different thing).
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
As I said

"Excluding advertising mailshots, I doubt I get one letter a day on average."

In the post we opened today there were some loyalty point vouchers from Tesco (no idea why they don't do away with paper) and a latter from Santander saying the interest rate was changing on an account we have.

Yesterday opened mail was a circular from Barclays and a package for me of some light bulbs.

The postie knocked today because he had another package which wouldn't go through the letterbox and that was all.

I can't really remember getting anything important through the post recently (except the car insurance docs which I'd already got online).

Hence the reason I'm happy for it to sit in the garage for (at least) three days before it gets my attention.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
>>As I said
>>
>>"Excluding advertising mailshots, I doubt I get one letter a day on average."

Yes you did, sorry.

But even so one a day seems quite a lot to me and I was curious. Mind you, the mail service here is a basket case so it's probably just as well.

I do miss receiving personal letters though. So much nicer than emails.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
By the way, remember those NFC tags from years ago? I just used the last one and it's massively useful. Thanks, yet another beer I owe you.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
BBC News - Coronavirus: Hospitals in Brazil's São Paulo 'near collapse'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-52701524
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
Another little gem from Chile; if you need a COVID-19 test then they are available. Results currently take 2 - 3 weeks.

FFS, you couldn't make it up.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 18 May 20 at 01:47
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Bromptonaut
>> Another little gem from Chile; if you need a COVID-19 test then they are available.
>> Results currently take 2 - 3 weeks.
>>
>> FFS, you couldn't make it up.

UK seem to be getting this sorted. Daughter and husband both displayed symptoms from last Wednesday. Tested on Thursday and negative result received Saturday. She reports a vary slick operation with Army personnel running most of it.

She may however have been prioritised as a key worker. Employed by the Blood Transfusion service in a management support role she has volunteered to return to a mobile collection team during the crisis.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
I suspect they weren't prioritised - the timeframe and process) sounds about the same for SWMBO, who was tested a couple of weeks back (as reported in an earlier volume). Or maybe SWMBO was prioritised too.

She was referred for test because she reported having the trots for two days running (haha) on the Kings College tracking tool we've been actively using daily since the early days.

Good that they had negative results...
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 18 May 20 at 10:00
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Zero
>> >> Another little gem from Chile; if you need a COVID-19 test then they are
>> available.
>> >> Results currently take 2 - 3 weeks.
>> >>
>> >> FFS, you couldn't make it up.
>>
>> UK seem to be getting this sorted. Daughter and husband both displayed symptoms from last
>> Wednesday. Tested on Thursday and negative result received Saturday. She reports a vary slick operation
>> with Army personnel running most of it.

I assume mine was clear, Tested at 14:30 on the Thursday, and admitted into hospital on the Monday. Jeez they really stuff that swab down the back of your throat.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 18 May 20 at 10:15
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Bromptonaut
>> Jeez they really stuff that swab down the back of your throat.

Daughter was expected to do that for herself and then her nose too.

Since the negative result both she and my sister, also an NHS worker, have reported that there a significant number of 'false negatives' on self administered tests.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
It's supposed to be swished around your tonsils for 10 seconds IIRC, which can induce a gag reflex in some. Then swizzled up a nostril for 15 seconds.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Manatee
I haven't a very good idea of where my tonsils are, although I can find my nostrils.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - tyrednemotional
>> I haven't a very good idea of where my tonsils are........
>>


....neither have I; last seen heading off to an incinerator somewhere.

;-)
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - legacylad
Likewise. Bradford Childrens Hospital, several decades ago.

You know what they say “you can pick your friends. You can pick your nose. But you can’t pick your friends nose”. Something I learnt at infant school.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - God
My mate Danny could stick his tongue up his nose.

Just saying.

:o}
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - tyrednemotional
...popular with the girls....?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - God
I was going to say ... but thought better ovvit.

;-)
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - VxFan
>> ...popular with the girls....?

I don't think I know any girls that like someone else's tongue shoved up their nose.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
What a strange thing to be excited about.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - God
You need to get out 'moor'.

:)
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
That's not my idea of fun, but hey, if it works for you, why not.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - God
>>That's not my idea of fun, but hey, if it works for Danny, why not.

;-)
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
Sorry, you misread; I said you, not 'Danny' whoever he may be.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - God
Danny was my best friend when I was 8 years old. Yes, he could stick his tongue up his nose.

I (and others) have tried it, but no way Jose, not even nearly.

Orf to bed now for an early night - surveyor coming tomorrow to check out my 230 year old cottage :(
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - VxFan
>> I (and others) have tried it, but no way Jose, not even nearly.

I'm curious why he would even let you try and stick your tongues up his nose.

You Cornish folk are a strange breed.

At least with the Welsh, they have sheep to keep them entertained.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - No FM2R
Damned fine sheep at that.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - God
>>I'm curious why he would even let you try and stick your tongues up his nose.

hehe very good .. we were blood brothers ya know, cut our fingers (on Hungerford Br.) and held them together (strange coves, kids!)

>>You Cornish folk are a strange breed.

Inbreds guvnor, including the sheeple.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Zero
>> It's supposed to be swished around your tonsils....Then swizzled up a nostril for 15 seconds.

I hasten to add its not the same Swab!!
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
SWMBOs was. Same end of same swab.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Zero
>> SWMBOs was. Same end of same swab.

Clearly our NHS is much classier in Surrey
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - tyrednemotional

>> Clearly our NHS is much classier in Surrey
>>

...nah....they've just got more swabs...
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Rudedog
Plenty of results come back as 'indeterminate' or 'specimen not found' which then unfortunately means you are treated as positive and all that entails for us in theatres...

       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Bobby
The latest update re loss of smell and taste was the final confirmation for us that the missus most likely had COVID in middle of March. She had first symptoms on 10 Mar and proceeded to feel ill for around 10 days. Peaks of high temp, flu like symptoms, coughing (not persistent) and total
loss of smell and taste. Remember it well, I had pulled pork in slow cooker overnight and in morning you could smell it as soon as you opened the door. Three of us commented straight away. Missus couldn’t smell anything.
Five days before her first symptoms she had been swimming in the local pool.

Which now makes the rest of us wonder have we had it? Could we have lived in same house and not got it?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - Haywain
"Could we have lived in same house and not got it?"

Dunno about covid, but I know that I've had 'flu in the past, and my wife hasn't caught it, even though we kip in the same bed.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 17 - smokie
My nursey daughter lost her sense of smell and was flu-like in March too. So there's a chance she's had it too. She is working out in the community with some of the worst residents of Birmingham, almost exclusively in pretty rough areas.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
Santiago just announced that its health system is now at capacity. This is a city of 7 million people.

And th country's health system is at 85%

Makes tomorrow onwards a worrying time.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 18 May 20 at 17:10
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
And now in this Third World country populated by the terminally stupid, the riots have restarted - burning barricades, destroyed vehicles and the police being attacked.

They say it is because they are starving. They're pretty fat with flash trainers for starving people.

It is actually because that particular comuna, El Bosque, is populated by thieves, burglars and drug dealers who can't get out to work during a quarantine.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 18 May 20 at 18:39
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Zero

>> It is actually because that particular comuna, El Bosque, is populated by thieves, burglars and
>> drug dealers who can't get out to work during a quarantine.


Its a living, a traditional skill set that would normally see you ok under any circumstances. You can understand their consternation.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - BiggerBadderDave
"You can understand their consternation".


I recommend more roughage.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - CGNorwich
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52717161

The disinfectant must not have worked
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Manatee
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52717161
>>
>> The disinfectant must not have worked

I am baffled as to why they haven't got the straitjacket on him yet.

The list of common side effects of hydroxychloroquine includes emotional lability. I had to look this up.

"In medicine and psychology, emotional lability is a sign or symptom typified by exaggerated changes in mood or affect in quick succession... These strong emotions can be a disproportionate response to something that happened, but other times there might be no trigger at all...

Emotional lability is seen or reported in various conditions including borderline personality disorder,histrionic personality disorder, hypomanic or manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and neurological disorders or brain injury..."


Could be tricky to know whether he has had an adverse response.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Haywain
"The disinfectant must not have worked"

Of course it worked - he hasn't had covid has he?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Duncan
This man, although wordy, I find interesting. Lengthy examinations and explanations of all the statistics.

He is very worried about Chile - amongst others.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDQieIJc6Zc
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - zippy
Two people I know have been asked to take the CV19 test as part of a random sample (random my a*** the male aged in his early 50s had very bad pneumonia last year and the woman late 80s had TB).

Anyway the lady has tested positive. She has been fully shielded since early March and has not had any visitors save for essential supplies which are all wiped down religiously with disinfectant.

She also has not / does not feel unwell.

I’m guessing it’s a false positive.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
Which test? To see if you've got it or to see if you've had it?
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - zippy
>> Which test? To see if you've got it or to see if you've had it?
>>

Have it.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - legacylad
4 of my acquaintances have now tested positive. Not my drinking buddies.
One person, aged 30, may have picked it up at work, then given it his mother as he moved back home last year to save for a house deposit.
Another pal, aged 66, contracted it from his son. They think he got it at the large supermarket where he works.
All 4 felt quite rough, confined to bed for several days, all now back at work. Thankfully.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
>>One person, aged 30, may have picked it up at work, then given it his mother

>>They think he got it at the large supermarket where he works.

How'd they work that out? Chances are they've no idea and it could have come from the briefest or most unnoticed contact. Or from work, indeed.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - legacylad
If you spent 8 hours a day at work, 40 minutes commuting in your own car, and the rest of the time at home then the odds are you caught it at work. As you say, could have caught it elsewhere, but as he and his parents live in a hamlet with 4 houses and a farm its more than likely. Maybe they should have implemented smokies postal routine.

Good thing is they recovered. Not important where he caught it.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
Given that I am acutely aware of when someone sneezes within 100m of me, and I don't touch anybody, and I assume that most people are the same, then it does make one wonder how it is still getting passed around.

Makes it pretty sure that we're getting it from people close to us rather than strangers, I should think.

One careless person in a small group of friends or family, is my guess.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 19 May 20 at 23:05
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - smokie
Not everyone is the same. I don't do shops much now unless I have to, but for instance Tesco have a fine queuing system which snakes round the car park and is administered by a member of staff. You'd feel quite safe in that as you each have a 2m square to stand in.

Once inside the shop there are arrows showing you which way to go round the aisles. Nobody takes any notice. People stop for a chat. Staff (who are as usual helpful) lurk along the aisles, with no masks or protection. People cause chicanes with their trolleys. People pick things up (incl fresh unwrapped fruit and food) , decide they don't want them and put them back - nothing changed there then. Few wear masks of any kind. Nothing seems to be enforced. You can't help being within two metres of someone regularly.

My little shop up the road has a limit of two customers at a time. The bloke ought to enforce it but doesn't and people just waltz in without a thought.

I've not had to full up with petrol but I suspect few washes their hands after using a pump. The plastic waste and recycling bins we use are left at the roadside for us to collect, I expect not many do much to disinfect them, or themselves, once they've handled them. And mail - don't get me started on mail LOL


I know I'm sounding again like an obsessive but I'm really not. Just taking sensible precautions which are pretty effortless.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Clk Sec
>> Given that I am acutely aware of when someone sneezes

Oh yes, the dreaded sneeze. Unfortunately that's going to be more evident over the next few months.




       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
Whilst I do think this is the right way to go in principle, I think cautiously tiptoeing along the corridor might be sounder approach then running fast off a cliff.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52742406
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
CG,

I have a new document just issued (or about to be issued) from the Pensions Institute written by a group of knowledgable people. It is entitled "The Impact of COVID-19 on Future Higher-Age Mortality".

It's 34 pages and a serious document for the industry, not for the media, but I think you'd find it interesting.

If you're interested and you drop me an email (my address is in my profile) I'll send it to you. I assume it will also be available on line somewhere, so I'll post the link here when somebody tells me what it is.

M.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
Got the link;

www.pensions-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/wp2007.pdf
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Manatee
Interesting, thanks. I hadn't seen that despite getting a lot of stuff in my mailbox from the world of pensions from consultants, lawyers and administrators. Everybody except actuaries in fact!

I was discussing the mortality effects in general terms with an actuary last week and the gist of his opinion was that any sustained effect on mortality was unlikely which is fairly obvious really (because it brings deaths forward but it is presumed it will be over or at low levels within say a year), but what interested me here was the comment that UK has not only had a lot of deaths but has incurred vast costs through lockdown, whilst Sweden has had the deaths but not the economic hit, and South Korea has had neither due to its track and trace policy.

Whether it's anybody's fault or not, we appear to have made the worst possible decisions. If the work is in fact correct - there's a huge amount of guesswork and assumption behind that maths.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
>>Whether it's anybody's fault or not, we appear to have made the worst possible decisions.

The best decision for the country as a whole would have been to take no action and let 500,000 die. I think there is no doubt about that.

But oh my God, what a price.
       
 But what about Sweden? - Manatee
>> >>Whether it's anybody's fault or not, we appear to have made the worst possible decisions.
>>
>> The best decision for the country as a whole would have been to take no
>> action and let 500,000 die. I think there is no doubt about that.
>>
>> But oh my God, what a price.

And I for one have accepted that prediction as credible, not that it matters what I think. But I am beginning to wonder if SAGE has been suffering from groupthink, although it's possible that they have just taken what they consider to be a failsafe view or indeed that they are right, regardless.

A few days ago, albeit on the basis of very little data from the population testing, it was suggested that there could be over 6m who have had the virus. That seems to tie in with the idea that the population infection fatality rate (IFR) is on a scale of 1%.

However there is some circularity here. At the beginning of the epidemic, various early studies in other countries showed a very low level of people with anti-bodies. From that flows estimates of R0, and IFR. However we now know that some people who test positive for COVID do not show antibodies, either because they haven't been detected or because they are not there. That could upset the whole applecart.

I was eager to pounce on Johnson (never wholly unjustified IMO) when he said that it was the right decision to introduce lockdown at the peak of infection. But what if he was accidentally correct and many more people had in fact been infected than was thought, but lots were asymptomatic or had had only mild illness? Maybe it was the peak of infection regardless of lockdown, and what we were seeing was the infection tailing off because a more significant number had already been infected than was thought to be the case?

Some of your pensions mortality study provides another piece of this alternative jigsaw. Sweden.

Inter-country comparisons are apparently odious, but Sweden must merit some study. Given there has been no lockdown, it seems incredible that the epidemic has followed a similar course there and in the UK. In fact the UK has so far had 531 deaths per million, and Sweden only 384. Maybe Sweden is behind UK, or has fared better because they are slightly less 'international' and a bit more spread out? Or perhaps we actually have extra deaths because we emptied the hospitals, partly by shipping infected people out into care homes?

I'm making it up here but could this be a comparison of UK's mitigation strategy with what in Sweden is actually a herd immunity one, that we were told - sincerely and logically, I don't heed conspiracy theories - would cause 510,000 deaths, or about 7,000 per million? This hypothesis, that there was really a lot more infection early on and that the epidemic started sooner than we thought, has been around from the start ;I'm sure the basis of the herd immunity approach wasn't predicated on 510,000 deaths, that was a prediction that came with the Imperial paper and changed everything.

If in fact many more people have been infected than was assumed by SAGE (the one big assumption on which all the predictions depend), then the IFR could be an order lower and the epidemic nearer the end, at least in the UK.

Sunetra Gupta articulates the alternative view quite clearly although it has received little continuing coverage.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKh6kJ-RSMI

Commentary from other sources:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/04/science-clash-imperial-vs-oxford-sex-smear-created-rival-covid/

A debunking of her modelling, although it is based on the assumption about number of infections in does make the valid point that if we follow this view then being wrong has a high cost:

www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-infections-oxford-study-immunity



Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 22 May 20 at 10:30
       
 But what about Sweden? - Robin O'Reliant

>>
>>
>> I'm making it up here but could this be a comparison of UK's mitigation strategy
>> with what in Sweden is actually a herd immunity one, that we were told -
>> sincerely and logically, I don't heed conspiracy theories - would cause 510,000 deaths, orabout
>> 7,000 per million? This hypothesis, that there was really a lot more infection early on
>> and that the epidemic started sooner than we thought, has been around from the start
>> ;I'm sure the basis of the herd immunity approach wasn't predicated on 510,000 deaths, that
>> was a prediction that came with the Imperial paper and changed everything.
>>
>>
That's interesting about Covid-19 possibly being around for longer than we thought. Back in October Mrs O'Reliant had symptoms which are very similar to those that come with Covid and the doctor just dismissed it as "Some sort of virus" and sent her away with tablets of one sort or another. It was after Christmas before she was back to normal and around that time I was mildly and vaguely unwell, though nothing that bothered me.

It could be just coincidence of course, lots of illnesses are floating round in the winter and the symptoms are often much of a muchness. On the other hand...
       
 But what about Sweden? - Terry
Comparing the UK with Sweden is almost certainly an inappropriate comparison.

Sweden has 10m population - 1/6th of UK. The largest city is Stockholm with around 1.5m vs London with 9m. Sweden has a population of 64 per sq mile, the UK is 259 people!

A far better comparison would be Spain, Italy, Germany, France - all relatively well developed Western European countries with similar populations. There still, however, climatic, social and structural differences.

What is interesting is that if an unconstrained R0 is (say) 2.5, cases in the UK were initially reported as doubling every 3 days,

- after 5 "cycles" (15 days) the number of infected would be 62
- after 10 "cycles" (30 days) the number of infected would be 2046
- after 20 "cycles" (60 days) the number of infected would be 2097150

If the first infections arrived in the UK late December (UK is a global level destination), by the time lockdown happened (say 75 days, 2.5 months later) over 67m would have been infected.

This is clearly implausible as it is quite clear that not everyone in the UK has now been infected (and mostly recovered). Also as infections increase, the average R0 will fall as many with whom an infected person comes into contact with will already have immunity.

So the real question is how many have actually been infected, are now (probably) immune, and how close are we ( and Sweden) to having "herd immunity".
       
 But what about Sweden? - smokie
Interesting discussion, thanks - esp Manatee.

A question - has it yet been reasonably firmly established that having had it gives immunity? I thought there was still quite a doubt.
       
 But what about Sweden? - Manatee
>> Interesting discussion, thanks - esp Manatee.
>>
>> A question - has it yet been reasonably firmly established that having had it gives
>> immunity? I thought there was still quite a doubt.

Correct. And I don't think it's understood whether some people who don't show antibodies might still have some immunity, or indeed whether some people who haven't had it are immune to begin with.

This matters because to work all the models depend on knowing, or making the right assumption, about the numbers who are susceptible to infection.
       
 But what about Sweden? - Zero
>> This matters because to work all the models depend on knowing, or making the right
>> assumption, about the numbers who are susceptible to infection.

I think its accepted there are considerably more who have had it, or been exposed than first thought. Its also clear that some form of genetic marker makes one susceptible or not and the most vulnerable have been hit.

So clearly given those circumstances, the scrubby brush has been burned away, the greener stronger grass is left, and a future spark wont flare up as badly.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 23 May 20 at 04:46
       
 But what about Sweden? - Kevin
>I think its accepted there are considerably more who have had it, or been exposed than first thought.
>Its also clear that some form of genetic marker makes one susceptible or not and the most vulnerable
>have been hit.

I got out of hospital today after testing positive for the virus last Tuesday while undergoing tests for an unrelated condition. I'd been put in the AAU (Acute Assessment Unit) on Monday after being referred to a specialist by my GP but I also had a slight cough. On the Tuesday morning I was transferred to a general ward while waiting for some of the results to come back. About an hour afterwards the head nurse came to me and told me that I had tested positive for CV and I was being moved to an isolation room. It seems a bit of a cockup that they hadn't waited for the Covid results before contaminating another ward and putting two other patients at risk.
I was put in an isolation room and pumped full of intravenous vitamins and antibiotics, presumably to ward off secondary infections, while they took another half dozen blood samples. I didn't sleep very well that night.

On Wednesday morning I was given the good news that most of the virus in my system was either inactive or already dead but they needed to keep me on the drip for a few more days. Now that I'm home I just need to self-isolate until next Tuesday and Mrs K for another 7 days after that.
       
 But what about Sweden? - God
>>I was put in an isolation room and pumped full of intravenous vitamins and antibiotics

Says a lot for the "just makes expensive urine" idea then.

:-)
       
 But what about Sweden? - sherlock47
>>I was put in an isolation room and pumped full of intravenous vitamins and antibiotics


I thought that IV vitamins was EBay and DIY treatment? Our resident medic to comment?


Or maybe Trump has changed his shareholdings?
       
 But what about Sweden? - Lygonos
Not aware of any use for vitamins per se (though I am not a hospital doc) but presumably nutrients would be a better term?

Saline/dextrose - more for fluid replacement than anything else.

I'm not at the cutting edge of Covid-19 treatment - not impossible they keep quiet about treatments initially to stop price gouging and markey collapse as morons buy supplies.

Like bog roll, pasta, yeast, etc.

Seem to recall supplies of the antibiotic ciprofloxacin were jeopardised back when some disgruntled US agent guy was sending anthrax in the post 20 years ago.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 24 May 20 at 11:02
       
 But what about Sweden? - CGNorwich
About 19% in London and 5% in the rest of the UK apparently
       
 But what about Sweden? - CGNorwich
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/coronavirus-study-says-one-in-six-have-had-covid-19-in-london-one-in-20-across-uk-11992393
       
 But what about Sweden? - No FM2R
>> About 19% in London and 5% in the rest of the UK apparently

This was the last that I saw....


www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/14/public-health-englands-latest-coronavirus-modelling-north-south/
       
 But what about Sweden? - Manatee
>> Comparing the UK with Sweden is almost certainly an inappropriate comparison.
>>
>> Sweden has 10m population - 1/6th of UK. The largest city is Stockholm with around
>> 1.5m vs London with 9m. Sweden has a population of 64 per sq mile, the
>> UK is 259 people!

I did say inter-country comparisons are odious. However I think average population density in most cases will not be the main driver of differences in outcome. I'd guess very few live at average density in any developed country since most live in towns and cities. Scotland has 1/6 of the average density of England but most live in the central belt which has a density similar to England's. 70% of Sweden is trees. On a crude calculation using reported areas and populations, Stockholm has a higher density than London.

The purpose of attempting that particular comparison is that the progress and outcome in terms of deaths is fairly similar, yet we have had lockdown and they have not. As Sunetra Gupta put it, by the 'Oxford' hypothesis the epidemic runs more or less by clockwork (presumably unless suppressed early enough or contained by track and trace from day 0).

That particular comparison is probably harder to explain if you think the Imperial/Neil Ferguson analysis best represents what is actually happening
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 22 May 20 at 15:49
       
 But what about Sweden? - tyrednemotional
>> I did say inter-country comparisons are odious.

They are for all kids of reasons, but it is still interesting to try to get as valid comparison as you can (UK vs Sweden is not good), since it may be all we have.

IMO, Sweden is best compared with the other Scandinavian countries for reasons of Geography, Demographics and Social Practice, etc.

In this case, the comparison shows the kind of result one might logically expect. Denmark, Norway and Finland all locked down early and relatively tightly (and are currently emerging well from that).

Per Capita cases and deaths in all those three countries are considerably lower than Sweden's (by factors of 4, 9 and 7 in round terms).

Sweden's per capita death rate is, on a rolling 7 day average, currently the worst in Europe.

At the end of April, the expectation was roughly 21-25% of the Swedish population would have had the virus. Antibody tests at that point (figures just published by the Swedish health authorities) indicate a figure of only 7.5% in Stockholm at that point. In addition, the number of deaths experienced is rather greater than expected under the strategy.

The Swedish approach is being widely questioned, including by its own population and academics. The other Scandinavian countries are likely to exclude Sweden from a post-lockdown pan-Scandi travel bubble out of concern about the existing position.

Patently, it isn't over until the bulging bint warbles, but there is enough there to throw severe doubt on the Swedish approach being a substantially better option.

Given the results of the rather late and dysfunctional UK response, I hate to think what position we'd be in now if we'd continued to pursue herd immunity.
       
 But what about Sweden? - Manatee
>>Sweden's per capita death rate is, on a rolling 7 day average, currently the worst in Europe.

Different sources probably, but I think ours is a bit higher.

ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-per-million-7-day-average


It does seem likely that Sweden could have saved lives like the other Nordic countries. But we know the reason for that. The question is why UK hasn't saved more.

Sweden started slightly after UK, has had fewer deaths pro rata, and actually a lower 7 day rolling average 4.8 deaths per million vs the UK's 5.1. It reached 1 reported death per million about 2 days after the UK on 27/28 March vs. 25/26 March. We reached peak deaths (7 day averge again) around April 23) Sweden around April 25th.

Now whether it is comparable with UK or not, the progress to peak deaths, and the fallback, are remarkably close, we have 40% more deaths pro rata , and they haven't completely trashed their economy. Our lockdown has been credited with bringing new cases down from 23rd March - Sweden's came down without a lockdown, at the equivalent time!

The difference between Norway/Denmark/Finland v. Sweden is that they locked down and Sweden didn't. The difference between them and UK is that they locked down sooner than we did - in Norway's case on the day of their first death, 13 March. Denmark locked down on 11 March, 6 days before its first death. Finland announced lockdown on 13th March, the first death was c. 21 March. Our first death was 7th March, and we locked down on 23rd March.

Norway has achieved a much better level of compliance then us as well as starting much earlier - their pubs were empty before they were closed, ours were still busy until they actually shut. An extra 1-2 weeks would have made a tremendous difference to our numbers.

I don't know whether Gupta has it right, or Ferguson and SAGE but I can see the reasoning in both - and it all comes down to how many people had it, and how many were susceptible, at any given time - which has never been known.





Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 22 May 20 at 17:37
       
 But what about Sweden? - Manatee
>> What is interesting is that if an unconstrained R0 is (say) 2.5, cases in the
>> UK were initially reported as doubling every 3 days,


R0 is the initial reproduction rate when all are susceptible. Subsequent R's should be lower as you say, even without infection control measures, so the rate of increase is not strictly exponential because the number of people available to infect falls exactly as you say although it did look pretty exponential for a few days with the straight line on the log graph.

>> So the real question is how many have actually been infected

Spot on also and that is the big difference between Gupta/Oxford and Ferguson/Imperial.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 23 May 20 at 04:47
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - CGNorwich
Coronavirus: UK arrivals could face £1,000 fines if they break quarantine www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52765054

More FUD?
       
 Supermarket Online Deliveries - Duncan
Have we done this?

Until this CV nonsense started, our shopping routine was - bulk of stuff from Lidl, with a few special things from Waitrose. That suited me down to the ground. I would go out once every ten days or so, buy a shipping order of UHT milk, semi-skimmed and skimmed and all the other bulk items from Lidl. Lady Duncan would go out once or twice a week and buy all the poncy things, like special bread and so on.

When CV kicked in, LD was deemed extremely vulnerable and we had to have groceries delivered. The problem was getting a slot! Members of the extended family were very good. We had a couple of expensive Ocado (Waitrose) deliveries arranged by a relation. We then managed to get slots with Sainsburys. They were ok, if a little pricey. The ordering was a random affair until we had a couple of deliveries under our belt when we could just click on 'Favourites' and choose what we want from there.

Today we had our first Tesco delivery, slightly better than Sainsburys, I think. Nice cheerful driver. similar prices to Sainsburys.

Prices! Having been used to Lidl, and earlier, Aldi prices, I have found other supermarkets to be expensive. If you aren't convinced have a look at the price comparison in the link.

www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=nRUPQPB4OgQ

For example the UHT milk that we use is around 50% more expensive at Waitrose, Tesco and Sainsburys by comparison with Aldi and Lidl. The German discounters - as some like to call them - charge 52p for a 1 litre Tetrapak. Tesco's price is 79p. Plus Aldi and Lidl sell UHT milk in boxes of 12 x 1 litre. In Tesco, one can only buy a maximum of 3 x 1litre
       
 Supermarket Online Deliveries - zippy
Mrs Z likes Aldi, she says its the same as supermarkets used to be in the '80s - more manageable sizes and suitable for a quick weekly shop.

Our shopping bills have gone up dramatically since we have been shopping online for food.

Mrs Z does a comparison by bag. She estimates that a bag of Aldi shopping is about £20 whilst at Sainsburys it's nearer £30.

More dramatically our weekly bill has gone from about £80 to £140.
       
 Supermarket Online Deliveries - smokie
In normal times we use a mix of Lidl and Tesco as they are quite close.

I'm fairly price-aware and we go to each shop for specific things. Some products, e.g. pickle, is much nicer when you get Branston rather than Lidl, despite being much more expensive. Also fresh stuff at Lidl definitely does not last as long as Tesco - but it's fine when used soon after purchase.

At the moment we've managed to get Tesco delivery slots on pretty much a weekly basis with not much effort. So I've only been to Tesco once since this all kicked off, and Lidl twice. I have "stocked up" on stuff we use frequently which has inflated our weekly cost, as has having a daughter living back with us for the time being, and also the pleasure of someone else lugging all the heavy stuff around for me :-) This week's bill is back to near-normal.

Some of the Tesco bulk buy restrictions have been odd. I was only able to buy three bottles of Crafty Hen beer but I could also buy 3 Abbot special reserve, 3 King Goblin etc etc. Not sure if the same applies to baked beans - 3 Tesco, 3 Heinz and so on.

We are still in the "I like Lidl but couldn't get everything there" mode.

We used Tesco delivery for years then gave up on it about a year back. I'm quite enjoying it but we'll probably let it lapse once the current sub runs out.
       
 Supermarket Online Deliveries - sooty123
We tried online shopping at the beginning got a couple of slots but found it pretty hard to get slots so we knocked it on the head. We're back to shopping at lidl and aldi, queues aren't particularly long.

We noticed the difference as well in prices when we did shop at sainsburys instead of aldi/lidl.
       
 Supermarket Online Deliveries - The Melting Snowman
The missus and I like Lidl for the non-perishable items - things in tins or jars, cereals, household cleaning products (the W5 range of products are good and cheap), washing powder, bog roll, that sort of thing. So we go about once every two months and stock up. But for fresh food we go to Sainsbury's, we have found the fruit, vegetables and salad lasts longer than Lidl so we waste less.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - smokie
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52782913

First offence: Dominic Cummings caught out driving 260 miles up to the NE with his family when his wife (and possibly he) had symptoms to get the kids looked after by his parents while they isolated, at a time when the guidance pretty much forbade this and explicitly said to not put your children with older people.

Second offence: No 10 (and Raab and Gove) rallying round to say he did not break guidelines and did nothing wrong.

I was already surprised at the other senior people who had been stupid enough to break the rules but at least they had the common decency to recognise and admit in public that they had made an error of judgement. They also resigned, which I wondered whether it was necessary or particularly desirable at the time - but at least they had the humility to admit a mistake.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - Manatee
Should have stayed at home with wife and children, and worked as best he could while staying alert of course.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - The Melting Snowman
I don't know what these 'Special Advisors' earn but I expect it's a decent salary - you would think Cummings might be able to look the part rather than the bloke who visits to do the gardening.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - sooty123
>> I don't know what these 'Special Advisors' earn but I expect it's a decent salary
>> - you would think Cummings might be able to look the part rather than the
>> bloke who visits to do the gardening.
>>

Probably some sort of image thing. He likes to play the part of the eccentric intellectual.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - zippy
This is the type of sleaze that hurt the John Major govt.

One rule for them and another for us.

Do the right thing and resign
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - smokie
What an arrogant **** he is in the clip in this article.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52782913
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - Bobby
He can't resign - he is the government - he is making the strategy, the decisions, the PR etc.
Boris couldn't function without him - Boris is literally a puppet for Cummings. Thats is why Boris isn't doing any daily conferences as he can't be trusted to speak without being controlled by Cummings.

       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - No FM2R
>> He can't resign - he is the government - he is making the strategy, the
>> decisions, the PR etc.
>> Boris couldn't function without him - Boris is literally a puppet for Cummings. Thats is
>> why Boris isn't doing any daily conferences as he can't be trusted to speak without
>> being controlled by Cummings.


What garbage. I've no love for Cummings, or Johnson for that matter, but for goodness sakes, you're being ridiculous.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - Bobby
Which part is ridiculous? Why is the PM not hosting the daily conference and facing scrutiny?
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - No FM2R
>> Which part is ridiculous? Why is the PM not hosting the daily conference and facing
>> scrutiny?


Oh i wouldn't narrow it down to parts, I'd say your entire post was ridiculous. And I have no idea why the PM is not presenting the daily conference, but your idea that it's because "he can't be trusted to speak without being controlled by Cummings" is just sad.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - No FM2R

>> First offence: Dominic Cummings caught out driving 260 miles up to the NE with his
>> family when his wife (and possibly he) had symptoms to get the kids looked after
>> by his parents while they isolated, at a time when the guidance pretty much forbade
>> this and explicitly said to not put your children with older people.

Bear in mind I'm not in the UK. If he felt that his wife, and potentially he, were likely to be come sick and possible incapable of looking after children, what should he have done? I have no idea whether or not he has family or close friends around him.

And "pretty much forbade" does not equal "forbade".

Perhaps he did wrong, perhaps he was even stupid, or perhaps not. But honestly this pretend outrage on behalf of the media and Cummings' political opponents is pathetic.

I totally dislike this baying of mobs and bandwagon leaping that the UK seems to suffer from. Especially given how it is intentionally stirred up by a media desperate for sensationalism.

Neither the media nor the other politicians give a flying crap about whether he was right or wrong. One just wants to report sensationalist stories justified with chest beating outrage and the other is looking for political capital.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - Bobby
I think you are far removed from the UK and the rules that we have been living under. The clear rules about staying at home.

Cummings has broken every rule that he and his puppet have issued and he absolutely should be sacked.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - No FM2R
>>he and his puppet have issued

You're obsessing.

"Every rule"??? ridiculous. Constant need to refer to puppet & master? somewhere between obsessive and sad.

Sacked for what, exactly? Or do you mean paid off under a compromise to satiate the baying hyenas?
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - Bobby
Not obsessing. Clear to see. Unless you don’t want to see it or believe it which is your prerogative.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - No FM2R
You really need to sit down and try and see past your political prejudices to reality.

There's plenty of stuff to criticise, you don't need to make up playground stories.

And please don't sink to the "if you disagree with me it's because you don't want to see" argument. It's not worthy of you.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - sooty123
>> Not obsessing. Clear to see. Unless you don’t want to see it or believe it
>> which is your prerogative.
>>

People see what they want to see?
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - No FM2R
Nick Cohen wrote recently in the Guardian;

"Don’t be too quick to scoff at pundits who never made it out of the prep-school playground. They may talk like prepubescents but their readers are running and wrecking the country"
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - PeterS
As I understand it, the guidelines are the governments wish, but they are not the law. I’m not sure any of the four relatively high profile ‘failure to adhere to guidelines’ actually break the law do they? Kinnock drove 200 miles because wanted tea and cake with his father on his birthday, Calderwood wanted to check a holiday home because she’d planned on de-camping to it, Ferguson wanted to continue to have a bit on the side and Cummings wanted to sort out care for a 4 year old. Rather odd for such a fuss really, but if a fuss is to be made Cummings journey seems to have rather better basis than the others! I think they’re all perfectly capable of assessing risk themselves, as is much of the public, so the hysteria is rather tedious.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - Manatee
I hope Starmer doesn't bring it up at PMQ for the reasons you state. The controversy, point-scoring, headlining etc is what it's about and I'm pretty sure most of the people doing that will have made some decisions for themselves too.

I've made probably a dozen visits to my damaged house either to pick things up, get test holes dug for planning groundworks, take pictures for planning, measure for plans etc. I have a rationale by which I am not endangering anybody and it's no good looking at the rules because there will be nothing about what you can do if your house is wrecked and you are trying to get the plot cleared and build a new one, and I know full well my purpose is not listed as one of the permitted ones.

I detest this government and the way its senior figures comport themselves but I don't really care about this supposed transgression one way or the other.

      1  
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - No FM2R
>>I detest this government and the way its senior figures comport themselves but I don't really care about this supposed transgression one way or the other.

Absolutely. But really I think it is any UK government and any UK senior political figures. Appalling, all of them.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - sooty123
Bear in mind I'm not in the UK. If he felt that his wife, and
>> potentially he, were likely to be come sick and possible incapable of looking after children,
>> what should he have done? I have no idea whether or not he has family
>> or close friends around him.

I get the fake outrage in things like this and all bandwagon jumping. And it's hard to string together with such smoke and mirrors in stories like this what actually happened but I do think if we was that ill in not sure jumping in the car was that wise.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - smokie
I get fed up with bandwagons too, and the intolerant attitudes of many which clearly are driven by the press - but in this case - on 20 March the Beeb said "On Monday (30th March), a No 10 source confirmed Dominic Cummings .... has developed symptoms of the virus and was self-isolating at home."

In the recent article the Beeb says

"On Tuesday, 31 March, when Dominic Cummings was in Durham with his sick wife, UK government advice on essential travel included:

Not visiting second homes, whether for isolation purposes or holidays
Not leaving your home - the place you live - to stay at another home
Remaining at your primary residence, to avoid putting additional pressure on communities and services at risk"

So maybe what he did was strictly speaking not forbidden but there is absolutely no doubt he went against Government advice of the time (which as an adviser and member of SAGE he most likely would have contributed to).

Whatever you think, that is a pretty arrogant attitude and IMO he ought not have done it. I'm not pretending outrage, I am genuinely irritated by the fact that he and those around him are now suggesting it was OK to do what he did when the official advice at the time was exactly and explicitly the opposite to not do what he did.

I haven't said he should resign but I still think at least an acknowledgement that he was morally wrong wouldn't go amiss, rather than defending it. Especially when other lesser mortals have fallen on their sword for similar actions.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - No FM2R
Expecting decent behaviour from politicians is destined to lead to disappointment.

I just wish that the people that were throwing the stones, [not you], were doing it for a decent reason. Not for political advantage or selling media coverage - the baying of politicians and reporters is an atrocious sight.

Would I have done it to get my children to my parents? (actually my parents are both very ill, so let's say my sister). Absolutely I would have done, without a moment's hesitation, if I felt it necessary and I could do it without endangering anyone else.

Had I been caught then I would have expected a rollocking, a fine if I'd broken the law and to apologise. I would not expect to be fired and I most certainly would not resign. If my employer wanted to get rid of me then they would need to pay me off unless they could find something in my employment contract and were prepared for a fight.

Cummings has not, as far as I am aware, told anybody how they should behave or what they should or should not do. Perhaps he's had input behind the scenes, but he's not told anyone himself.

So, I'd say that the punishment should be the same as if it was me, everything else is a matter for his boss and the next performance review.

Add to the noise the hypocritical, sanctimonious cynical jerks in other political parties or the media playing it entirely for their own advantage and I find the whole thing intolerable.


Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 24 May 20 at 02:46
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - No FM2R
......though I think Cummings is a dick and I couldn't give a crap what happens to him.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - smokie
I suppose I differ, and I suspect many others do, in that we would have adhered to government advice, or if we were caught at least say sorry rather than justify it.

Another angle is that many front line workers have given up quite a bit of their home and family life to de-risk their families while carrying out their roles, and I doubt seeing a senior figure flout advice would sit well with them. Well, it wouldn't if I were one. (There I go, arguing on behalf of someone else!!)

I see there are allegations of ruther trips this morning, as yet unproven.
       
 Hardly setting the right example...twice - smokie
Just one other thing on the dateline - the PMs letter to every household was published on the .gov website on 28th March and reported and reproduced in full in the press on 29 March, and contained the line

"That is why we are giving one simple instruction - you must stay at home."

I think I didn't get the letter till maybe a couple of weeks later but I'd be a bit surprised if Dom hadn't read it somewhere at the time, which was around his travel date.

Cynical, hypocritical and, unfortunately, par for the course for some MPs.

The letter in full

www.gov.uk/government/publications/pm-letter-to-nation-on-coronavirus
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
This far too detailed and technical for most people to be interested, but I thought someone might find it useful; Manatee might though?

royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2020.0230
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Manatee
I don't know about too detailed and technical to be interesting, but it might be too detailed and technical for me to follow:)

Thanks for the thought. I do devour a fair amount of information when I get interested in something.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
>> I don't know about too detailed and technical to be interesting,

Ah, but I said "for people to be interested" not that it wasn't interesting. Quite different.

It interested me, which is why I thought it might interest you.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Runfer D'Hills
I've lost interest. ;-)
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 23 May 20 at 20:28
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - tyrednemotional
...if that was due to miss-selling, I can put you in touch with someone....

;-)
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
I think you maybe overused the letter 's' with a potentially superfluous hyphen.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 23 May 20 at 20:37
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - tyrednemotional
...piles playing up again Mark?

(Technically I'll give you the "s", but not the hyphen - though miss-selling is in common usage)

;-)
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - CGNorwich
>> ...piles playing up again Mark?
>>
>> (Technically I'll give you the "s", but not the hyphen - though miss-selling is in
>> common usage)
>>
>> ;-)
>>

Which reminds me:

Who was the leader of the Pedant's Revolt?





Which Tyler
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
Sadly it took me a minute....
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - No FM2R
Manatee, two more which feed into some of your earlier posts - especially the second link. Do let me know if either I'm boring you or passing on stuff you've already seen..


fullfact.org/health/covid-deaths/

ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Duncan
>> fullfact.org/health/covid-deaths/

That is an interesting read. I haven't looked at the others.
Last edited by: Duncan on Sun 24 May 20 at 18:10
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Lygonos
He drove 250miles with his wife while infected to an area and peoplw who were not.

There is no rationalising that one.

He's toast as far as involvement with Covid strategy.

I expect now Johnson has embarassed himself to defend him he'll now quit "to save further distraction" and be found another strategic role in government.

Mandelson 2.0.

He even got a peerage.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 24 May 20 at 18:25
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - Rudedog
Four hour trip apparently... good change that he stopped along the way for a pee and drink if not for himself then the kids.

       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - martin aston
I think the idea that he might be taking the P is not yet proven.
       
 Coronavirus - Volume 18 - tyrednemotional
...well, at least somebody will probably get sacked...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-tweet-civil-service-arrogant-offensive-a9530706.html
       
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