Outside our back door is a self-contained light with PIR movement detector. There are no controls for daylight sensitivity or timer duration on the outside of the light unit; those values are pre-set at the factory. It's powered by a wire coming through the brick wall. On the indoors end of the wire is a switch which makes or breaks the Live feed. The Neutral feed is permanently connected. We leave the indoor switch on all the time. The outdoor light comes on during the hours of darkness when it detects movement. It stays on for around 4 minutes and then switches off. It's a "Coach Lantern 110deg PIR LBLP091".
Over the last few weeks I have put up a canopy over the patio; something like this www.amazon.co.uk/Primrose-White-Veranda-Garden-Canopy/dp/B0773TBHZR
At the weekend I fitted three non-sensor lights, one each on the three supporting pillars. I have connected each of the lights to a junction box fixed to the wall of the house above the existing PIR light, and taken a feed to the junction box from the connections behind the existing light. I have put a switch in the Live side of the feed to the junction box.
I'd have liked to have swapped the 1-gang switch indoors for a 2-gang switch, so I could switch the PIR light power and the non-sensor lights on and off independently, but the existing switch isn't in line with the PIR light so tapping the single feed outdoors seems to be the easier option.
I would expect that the outdoor switch would simply switch the new pillar lights on and off like a, y'know, light switch; and that the existing PIR would continue to function as before.
What actually happens is this:
1. When the outdoor switch is Off, the PIR light triggers by movement after dark and turns on all four lights (existing and new) for 4 minutes.
2. When the outdoor switch is switched On, all four lights come on and stay on.
Why??
Too Long, Didn't Read:
I've installed a switch and some non-sensor lights taking their power from the same feed as a PIR sensor light. Now all the lights are operated by the PIR sensor, and the PIR light is operated by the switch. Can't work out why.
|
Perhaps somebody has wired neutral and live wires inconsistently.
Are you sure the switch is on the live side?
|
|
It's brown wires to both L1 and COM. The house is 4 years old so has brown, blue and yellow/green wires in the walls.
|
|
The PIR driven light is completing the circuit when it activates as an alternative to the switch. I'm not sure how that could happen unless the wires were crossed somewhere. Or shorting, I suppose.
|
I'm certain there are no shorts anywhere in my wiring, or in the wiring block in the PIR light, or in the indoor switch pattress.
One point of note which I'd forgotten was that the house RCCB tripped while I was wiring up one of the new lights. With the downstairs lighting circuit breaker switched off, and the hall and dining room lights not lit although they were switched on. I didn't get any hints or tingles at any point to suggest something wasn't right. Just two children complaining the wi-fi had gone off.
Just as well my stepladder's fibreglass, I suspect.
Last edited by: Dave_ on Tue 2 Jun 20 at 23:16
|
|
How d'you check with a multimeter which wire's at 240v with the circuit breaker off then?
|
I am definitely no expert on this but "It's brown wires to both L1 and COM." indicates it's a ring circuit doesn't it, with no live and neutral as such - which is pretty common in the UK (less so abroad*).
And I know on my lighting ring circuit here there are many wires behind some of the ceiling roses, where lights feed off one another. I've no idea how or why, but it might spark (haha) a thought in someones mind.
This is how I think mine look
www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/diy/electrics/light_fitting/light_ceiling_rose.jpg
* I only think this because there I was looking at some WiFi lights swicthes fron China but they require L&N and are not suitable for most houses here
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 3 Jun 20 at 00:27
|
I'm struggling to picture this and then struggling even more to put it into words..
I understand that you had;
live from the house to the switch to the original light live.
Neutral from the house straight past the switch to the original light neutral.
Have you then taken the live from the original light into and out new light #1, into and out new light #2 and then returning to the neutral side of the original light?
i.e. the first light effectively in parallel but the new lights in series?
Or have you put the new lights in parallel? Or all the lights in series?
Because if you've got them confused then there could be two ways for the entire circuit to be completed; either the PIR OR the switch could complete the entire circuit..
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 3 Jun 20 at 03:38
|
How many wires are there in the original PIR switch that you've jumped?
(my guess is that you have two (and probablly an earth) - and it sounds like they are both brown? - conventionally it would be a brown and possibly a blue with a brown 'sleeve' to denote switched live.)
If it's a simple one-way one-gang switch, it's possible (conventional in loop-in, loop-out room lighting) that the two wires in the switch will both be live - one permanent (typically COM) and one switched (L1) with the neutral routed elsewhere (nowhere near the switch) to the light.
The next question is how have you wired from this existing PIR switch to the junction box? I could read that you've treated the two brown wires as live and neutral, rather than permanent and switched live.
Then, how have you wired from the junction box to the new lights?
(I can see some potentially interesting effects here, depending on whether/where there is a Neutral introduced into the system).
|
Tripping a modern RCD is really easy- the neutrals are still connected even when the live is off, so touching the neutral wire can generate a tiny current that causes an imbalance and trips it. Done that plenty of times, gives a moment's head scratching when you put it back on, and it doesn't work....!
I can't imagine what you have done to make this situation! If you have COM and L1 then you've used a 2-way switch? This shouldn't be a problem. If the lights are on when the switch is 'off' (do you mean off, or just in the 'up' position, as that can be on or off depending on the configuration!) then you must have a stray live somewhere, possibly on the earth (although I am surprised this doesn't trip the RCD).
How many wires are there coming into the light fitting, and which have you wired to?
|
Oo'er I just tried the link I posted above only to find they inhibit all linking directly to the page.
So here's another, but now you have the attention of more experienced people you are in safer hands than mine :-)
www.practicaldiy.com/electrics/lighting-wiring/light-wiring-loop.php
|
|
For safety's sake I would get a competant elecrtrician to check it out.
|
>> For safety's sake I would get a competant elecrtrician to check it out.
>>
Here lies Paddy O'Sparks, Amateur Electrician.
Brown to live
Green to neutral
Blue to bits.
|
Best to bear in mind the fate of Lord Finchley
Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light
Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right!
It is the business of the wealthy man
To give employment to the artisan.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 3 Jun 20 at 12:04
|
My thought is that things went wrong when you took the feed from the wiring at the back of the PIR light.
Does the mains feed go through it with a switched live to the fitting itself - multiple wires - or is it just on a switched spur - two wires but probably plus earth unless it's a double insulated plastic fitting?
|
>> My thought is that things went wrong when you took the feed from the wiring
>> at the back of the PIR light.
Its ok if you take it from the right side of the PIR, ie the feed in, not the feed out.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 3 Jun 20 at 15:51
|
|
First things first. I am NOT an electrician. It seems to me you might be feeding the PIR from the non sensor lights instead of the other way round. It might be best if the non sensor lights were completely independant from the PIR.
|
How about temporarily taking the PIR light out of the equation and just wiring the new lights to the internal switch wires? Using a multimeter to check for live. Once sorted wire the PIR back in.
Process of elimination.
Presumably your internal switch will be taking its power from the lighting circuit and down the wall to it unless someone has spurred off the main ring.
|
The wires through the wall to the PIR light are brown, blue and green/yellow into terminal blocks on the wall-mounted backplate. The other side of the terminal blocks are wired into the PIR light, which is effectively a sealed unit.
I have wired the new set of 3 outdoor lights in parallel, by connecting the wires to the terminal blocks - so two browns in one terminal, two blues in one terminal and two green/yellows in one terminal. The yellow/green and the blue go directly to the three lights, the brown goes through the outdoor switch (in L1, out COM) and on to the three lights.
I suspect the RCCB is super-sensitive from previous experience; I had my late father's house rewired because its original 1950s rubber-sheathed wiring leaked enough current to trip the new circuit breakers. I had a shower fitted in that house, which meant the original fusebox had to be replaced with a modern circuit breaker consumer unit. Expensive shower. Anyway, I digress.
I won't get the chance to sort out my new outdoor lights until the weekend; I'll have another look at what's wired where in the house and have a think.
Thanks for all the advice so far.
|
Add extra outdoor lights - PIR confusion - No FM2R
