Non-motoring > Replacement windows Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Lemma Replies: 23

 Replacement windows - Lemma
We live in a small village within a conservation area. Our property is something of a Trigger's broom but dates back to around 1610. It was fully renovated and modernised around ten years ago when we bought it. The softwood, double glazed window frames simply don't keep the paint on as they move with exposure to the elements and some are rotting. Basically, they're rubbish!

We have decided to replace rather than than continue to patch and paint. There are three options emerging. UPVC (shock, horror!), engineered wood and accoya. UPVC is not as horrendous as it sounds, there are several remarkably good brands out there and I have been pleasantly surprised when checking them out. The Conservation Officer is happy providing the look of the property is maintained. Engineered wood frames look very good but are the most expensive. A local and highly regarded tradesman can make and install frames made from Accoya, but the catch is - eventually. He also happens to be the cheapest in terms of price.

Is there any experience or advice with regard to the relative merits of engineered wood v accoya frames? I think we are rather lukewarm about UPVC despite the attractive price. We want frames that will be stable and not need repainting every couple of years as at present, and will have a lifetime measured in decades.

I would welcome any thoughts, thanks.
 Replacement windows - maltrap
When we had wooden double glazed window frames installed 30 years ago i bought a wood preservative made by Dulux (i think) and painted it on the frames prior to the glazed panels being fitted, paying particular attention to the rebates, so they have lasted 30 years without going rotten. But they still need painting! On the other hand the UPVC windows fitted 35 years ago have not needed painting and are probably more thermally efficient. I should point out that we have a mixture of wood and UPVC. If i replaced the wooden ones it would be with UPVC. Assuming that there are no restrictions on the materials that you can use on a house of that age. Hope this helps.
 Replacement windows - Zero
I dislike UVPC windows, they are far too thick in width restricting light, stain and discolour far too easily, and structurally weak. Show me a UVPC door, and if it hasnt dropped, its going to.

I am slowly replacing UVPC with powder coated steel or aluminium.


As far as the original post goes, at the end of the day, nothing replaces the look of timber in its original setting. As far as a 1610 house goes, you may be living there, but you are merely a custodian of history. I wouldnt be happy with anything other than trying to be original as possible.
 Replacement windows - Dog
I had Argon gas filled aluminium double glazed windows fitted to the lounge of this place.

The profiles looked much better than the plastic things fitted to the bedrooms. not cheap though:

tinyurl.com/y9mjogrb
Last edited by: R.P. on Fri 5 Jun 20 at 14:38
 Replacement windows - R.P.
Oddly having four windows replaced today. Modern UPVCs are quite pretty (!)
 Replacement windows - Pezzer
not sure if you are bothered but that link brings up an address.
 Replacement windows - Dog
>>not sure if you are bothered but that link brings up an address.

Is that to me Pezzer? .. I sold that place back in 2004, only owned it for 12 months and made a cool £100k on it.
 Replacement windows - Pezzer
it was ! Nice.....
 Replacement windows - Dog
Sea views from the lounge, and two of the bedrooms. Rayburn in the kitchen and a massive bath in one-of the bathrooms.

We only used it once as we couldn't afford the water bill!
 Replacement windows - henry k
My thoughts.
I would go for aluminium windows. They are not cheap but we have had them for 15 years plus and are delighted with them.
We previously had original Crittall steel frames from the 1930s.
At the time me bought them all the UPVC frames were so thick and ugly. I think they have improved in the passing years.
The frames are a cleaner shape / profile with butt joints unlike the UPVC ones and the handles on ours are the neatest I have seen.
Our upstairs full height winows have a facility to slide the whole unit within the fixed frame to give easier accees to the outside of the pane.

My observation re many of these windows.
They have friction rather than a stay to keep them open.
1. top hinged small upper windows require an arm though the gap to reach the handle so a larger window is easier to close.
2. Full height windows may be a stretch to reach especially if a 600 kitchen work surface also has to be bridged. It is bad enough with our non cavity brick walls.
I know of some folk who say " Just go out side to close the window" :-(
( I would seriously investigate electric actuators for some windows)

 Replacement windows - henry k
GOD
your windows look identical to ours.

We also had a pair of narrow Crittall French doors replaced with a single aluminium door.
It has a wider central vertical bar to look like the original doors
It has no form or retaining stay (s) and that is a drawback to the design.

It seems the norm to internally fit wide flat plasic strips to hide the damage caused when the old frames are removed. I opted to leave the damage on view and for me to fill in the gaps and redecorate thus eventually having and original fit appearance.
 Replacement windows - Dog
>>GOD
your windows look identical to ours.

Bless you my son. If you pan around that image you can see the nasty (compared to the aluminium jobbies)) uPVC windows on the far LH side of the property.

The original windows in that property were softwood farmed :(
 Replacement windows - Manatee
Have you investigated 'composite' windows? Timber with aluminium cladding on the outside.

We have been requested by the planners to use "conservation" windows in a new house. Some councils include uPVC in that if they are of appropriate appearance. They pointed us towards R9 & R7 windows in uPVC but there are other brands now.

I don't really disagree with them. 90% of British homes have terrible looking uPVC windows in them, all odd proportions and uneven sight lines, and of course the thick profiles.

I used uPVC replacements in our soon-to-be-demolished bunglaow but I had all the sashes fitted in the fixed lights to match the openers. Fortunately the old timber windows were pretty heavily framed and the appearance hardly changed at all.

If I can find some aluminium ones with the right appearance and a reasonable price I'll use those. Otherwise probably "conservation" style uPVC, flush style.

e.g. www.southlakeswindows.com/wp-content/uploads/r9-flush-sash-window-3.jpg

I tend to agree that something built in 1610 probably should not have anything that could be mistaken for uPVC!

 Replacement windows - PeterS
When we lived in a cottage in a conservation area we used a localish joinery firm to make new single glazed (it was 15 years ago...maybe we could have had double glazed...not sure) hardwood windows and front door. Obviously they were all non standard sizes, but they too were cheaper than the alternatives we looked at, excluding fitting. Fitting was more expensive...and obviously they needed painting after installation. However when we sold the house 7 years later the paint still looked fine. I happened to walk past the house a couple of moths ago...so 17 years after they were fitted. I’m not convinced they’ve been painted since! But still looked good. You can’t beat wooden windows in a period property I don’t think.

The house I’m in now, which we bought almost 11 years ago, is Edwardian and still had wooden sash windows. We spent a five figure sum having them refurbished, including some replacement sashes and cills, but again almost 10 years later, albeit having been repainted once in that time, they’re fine. Everyone said, just replace with UPVC. But, they just don’t look right. As Z said, the frames are too thick and there’s no detailing. In order to combat cold and drafts, as Andy was at home a lot of the time, we had the windows refurbished and draft-proofed, increased insulation, new central heating and shutters on the huge downstairs bays, and ended up with a house that can get too warm when you light a fire. Not bad given it’s still single glazed and the ceilings are 10’ both up and down stairs!!
 Replacement windows - zippy
Zero mentioned problems with UPVC. There are differences in quality but overall yes, there are better materials.

I do like wood but dislike the maintenance issues, even with hardwood.

How much extra %age wise do you think does aluminium cost over UPVC?
 Replacement windows - Zero
>> How much extra %age wise do you think does aluminium cost over UPVC?

Three times as much on average.

Heres a guide. I got quotes for french doors and side windows.

UVPC £1200

Aluminium, thermal break, thermal filled, £4000

hand made crittal style, extremely thin profile, £8000 (plus an 8 month waiting list)
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 6 Jun 20 at 03:40
 Replacement windows - The Melting Snowman
I think the comment about matching the materials to the period of property is a good one, certainly in the previous two properties that we owned which were period (both c17) then fitting wood was the only option. Maybe if you're well-heeled then aluminium seems an option but for us if the price difference is 3x then no. Our current home which will hopefully see us out is a modern 1970's box (fortunately the days when developers still gave you a decent garden) with uPVC all around. I don't dislike them at all, the fact I don't have to sand and paint every few years is a huge bonus. Regarding the doors dropping, all the ones I've seen including ours have an adjustment and by coincidence I have been cleaning all the plastic using uPVC cleaning solvent (the full monty, not those cream cleaners) so yes they can stain but I have to admit the solvent has brought the plastic back like new, far better than I predicted.
 Replacement windows - Dog
>> the fact I don't have to sand and paint every few years is a huge bonus

I haven't touched the white-painted wood framed double glazed windows fitted to my cottage, and I've been here 9 years.

It's a case of using the 'right' paint (or wood stain) Sikkens is one.

uPVC windows would ruin the look of this 18th century cottage - seen it too many times :(
 Replacement windows - maltrap
Another cosideration might be secondary glazing. You would keep the traditional wooden frames but have have the benefit of noise & thermal insulation. I've seen them used on period cottages they seem unobtrusive.
 Replacement windows - Ambo
I would use secondary glazing where the present window is wide enough to have central supports, since double glazing might not have enough strength to take over the task of support and downward slippage above the frame might result.

 Replacement windows - Lemma
Thank you all for your various thoughts, much appreciated. I am sorry not to get back sooner, we have had difficult wifi problems, I put it down to some firmware issues.

There was no real possibility of replacing with UPVC windows, although I have to say I was very surprised at the appearance of "heritage" style upvc windows. I did weigh up R9 (Residence 9) against Evolution upvc brands. R9 windows are made with the glass bonded against the frame, interesting if the glass needs replacing. One company listed as a supplier who I approached said they were no longer fitting them due to quality issues. If anybody is thinking of this brand then take a look at Trustpilot. In a different style house I would certainly consider them but probably the Evolution brand. Secondary glazing is a non-starter as the frames and cills are rotting.

Whilst it is a property that dates back a very long way it has been very significantly changed over the years. A local historian investigated the house and showed where the original fireplace was and the chimney passed through the roof. A beam in what is now the bathroom shows evidence of charring. It seems the style of the house is very typical and one of similar design is erected in the Weald and Downland Museum. The chimney is no longer there but can be seen on old photographs.

I think we are likely to go with accoya, a form of acetylised pine treated to remove the moisture. I have a little more research to do and am awaiting one more quote and then its decision time. Its an expensive process and being a bit nerdy I am spending some time to make sure I get this right.

Thanks again, Lemma
Last edited by: Lemma on Sun 7 Jun 20 at 09:43
 Replacement windows - PeterS
As you mention the Weald and Donwland museum, are you in Sussex? I only ask as we used this place for the windows in our cottage in Arundel, and the quality was excellent.

www.sethevansjoinery.com/

Though when new to the area, the location was somewhat confusing. A guy doing some work shortly after we move in said he was going to pick some stuff up from Clapham... Clapham I said - that’s a long way to go!!

 Replacement windows - Lemma
We are actually just over the border in Hampshire. There are several good, local companies/craftsmen who have quoted but thank you for thinking of me. Who knows it may well be that we go a little further afield as we have not finally accepted the quote yet.

Not made it to the Weald and Downland museum since my historian friend visited, but am keen to take a look. I think our house is most likely a Pendean style, one that was common at the time with a centrally placed fireplace opposite the front door. Apparently the tell tale sign for dating it is the type of joint between the rafters and vertical wall timbers.
 Replacement windows - Netsur
For those looking at uPVC windows (and I understand they do not suit all properties), then you don't have to have white. There is a wide range of colours which can be external only or both internal and external.

We live in a 1980s bespoke house originally built by my parents with hardwood frames and narrow double glazing some of which has failed. Some alterations to them and lack of decent maintenance over the years means that they are no longer fit for purpose so we are replacing them with uPVC frames but with a mid-grey exterior.

No only does this mean that they do not look garish and staining is minimised but the darker colour absorbs UV so the frames last longer before they become brittle. The other benefits are better sound and heat insulation and the ability to lock the windows in a night vent position, improving ventilation through the house.
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