Non-motoring > The US Election... Miscellaneous
Thread Author: No FM2R Replies: 145

 The US Election... - No FM2R
And so it begins.

Will Trump achieve a second term? Damn I hope not, but he might.

If one looks at the promises he made last time, he´s been true to most of them. And the ones he hasn't (Obama Care and a Full Wall) he can point pretty clearly at the Democrats for stopping them.

It wasn't his doing, but the US economy was doing pretty well until COVID-19 brought it down, but half the US electorate don't seem to believe in COVID anyway.

What has changed that would move voters away from him? Not much that I can see. The issues haven't changed, his position hasn't changed.

Last time his opponent was awful. Well that doesn't seem to have changed much.

Will Trump voters see that he comes across as a buffoon with his ridiculous statements and his behaviour on Twitter? I doubt it.

I don't think Trump will get less voters, the Democrats have to focus on getting more.

I hope we don't get him again, but we might.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 7 Nov 20 at 04:15
 The US Election... - sooty123
From what I've seen DT is behind in the majority of the swing states by a fair bit. There he seems to be struggling, although it's difficult to say how accurate the polling is.

Reading on a couple of other forums that has a few Americans give a different impression, plenty in the mid West are worried about how the Dem party have hitches their wagon to the BLM which associates with more violent groups. Trump might well come through as a law and order candidate if enough people start worrying about the riots.

How much that is representative of wider Americans I don't know, but there is a lot of time before the election for things to change.
 The US Election... - Terry
It is difficult for Brits to properly understand a US culture - hence "two nations separated by a common language" which is attributed to George Bernard Shaw.

Healthcare, right to bear arms, social security (universal credit etc) are all issues which we view differently. The Tory right wing gets close to the US, but UK politics centres around what could be described as moderate democrat.

I find Trump a reprehensible character - a bully, narcissistic, lying, fundamentally ill informed and ignorant. He is inarticulate as soon as he goes off script, and surrounds himself only with sycophants (he fires the rest).

But he does know how to tell a part of the electorate what they want to hear. He also has the benefit of a weak opposition - another virtual geriatric rather than someone with energy, drive ambition and imagination.

So there is, sadly, a real chance that he will be re-elected.
 The US Election... - henry k
>>It is difficult for Brits to properly understand a US culture
Indeed.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/13/donald-trump-20000-false-or-misleading-claims
( The Washington Post is behind a pay wall
Many more stats
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump

The response from his supporters seems to be " Oh thats just Donald !"
Will others vote him out ?

>>So there is, sadly, a real chance that he will be re-elected.
That is the worrying bit.
Meanwhile time for him to get back to the golf.

 The US Election... - Zero
I like to tune into US news. From Very Very pro Trump Fox News, to Anti Trump CNN via the others in between.

NBC news summed it up perfectly

On election eve, this country is just unbelievably stressed out
One psychologist referred to what he's seeing as a pervasive "sense of dread and isolation." "Election Stress Disorder"



Trump has explosively exposed and exploited the cracks in American Society for his own ends.





 The US Election... - Manatee
" ...62% of adults in the United States get news from social media.,[6] as well as three-fourths who say they get news from e-mail or social media sites updates, according to a report published by CNN. The survey suggests that Facebook and Twitter make news a more participatory experience than before as people share news articles and comment on other people's posts. According to CNN, in 2010 75% of people got their news forwarded through e-mail or social media posts, whereas 37% of people shared a news item via Facebook or Twitter."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_as_a_news_source

And there's your problem. The thickos actually prefer the propaganda channels where campaign funds are increasingly used to make false claims and smear the opposition. There seems little doubt that malign state actors are also swamping social media with material designed to undermine democratic societies. It's not nuclear weapons we need to defend ourselves against any more.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/14/russia-us-politics-social-media-facebook

I doubt whether western governments are doing nearly enough about this. They can't measure it, they don't understand it, so they can't deal with it.

FB, twitter etc. are the favourite conduit for conspiracy theories, fake news, manipulation of all kinds. Yet many perceive them to be more trustworthy than traditional mainstream journalism.

The more fantastic the theories, the more the lumpen masses lap them up. What I might see as proof of Trump's near-insanity, only confirms to them that he is right with his outlandish claims and theories that they find far more appealing than serious commentary in the Washington Post or the NY Times.

There's every chance he could be re-elected.

And are we in the UK really much better off? It's hard to see how the brainwashing can be stopped. The structures beneath the politicians that should be running the country are being dismantled when we need them the most. It really does feel like the start of a new Dark Age.

But maybe there's hope. Johnson looks finished, by Brexit, by COVID-19, by his own illness, by corruption, by cronyism and by sheer incompetence. Given we can't shift them for five years, is there someone in the Conservative party with the support and the courage to get us back on track?

It would certainly help if Trump gets chucked out. Why oh why couldn't the Democrats have come up with a better candidate?
 The US Election... - Zero

>>
>> Why oh why couldn't the Democrats
>> have come up with a better candidate?

Money. To just get the party nomination requires an enormous amount of funding, and then you have to convince conference you have even more dosh to fight the election.

 The US Election... - bathtub tom
I feel sorry for the American electorate. The last time they had a choice between Trump or Clinton, this time they've a choice between a couple of septuagenarians, either of which could die in office.
This country has not much better choice. There doesn't seem to be anyone suitable for the job prepared to take it on.
Perhaps it's time for a coup?
 The US Election... - Zero
>> I feel sorry for the American electorate.

Sod the yanks, what about us? Jelly Corbyn or Buffoon Johnson.


And you know the real tragedy? if you don't vote for either, one of them will get in.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 28 Aug 20 at 14:30
 The US Election... - No FM2R
Made me smile.

news.sky.com/video/share-12058162
 The US Election... - sooty123
The day has finally arrived, what's everyone's predictions for the result?

I think Trump will win but the Democrats will secure both Houses and it'll turn into a log jam for the next 4 years.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> I think Trump will win

Will he win by fair means or by foul?
 The US Election... - sooty123
They'll be legal cases brought however wins.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
The Florida result will be an early straw. I'll wait for that before predicting.
 The US Election... - sooty123
Go on be brave stick your neck out ;-)
 The US Election... - smokie
Biden by a handsome amount
 The US Election... - CGNorwich
I’ll go with Biden. My fervent wish is to see Trump out on his ear and an effective vaccine announced by the end of the year. The first leg of the double will be a good start deserving of a celebration.
 The US Election... - Clk Sec
I think the Donald will win, as he did last time.
 The US Election... - bathtub tom
I see someone's placed a £5million bet that the chump will win.
 The US Election... - Zero
I hope he does win. I can go back to calling Americans the dumbest people on earth (I lost the right to do that when we voted Bojo in, hopefully we wont be double dumb)
 The US Election... - Duncan
>> (I lost the right to do that when we voted Bojo in, hopefully
>> we wont be double dumb)
>>

To be fair, what choice was there?
 The US Election... - henry k
One long serving Democrat said
"The Democrats will unpack the Supreme Court"
i.e. Trump packed it so we will re adjust the balance.
That should re kindle Trump.
 The US Election... - Robin O'Reliant
I'm going for a Biden win. Let's hope it's decisive too.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
Last time it was near as dammit 50:50

I don't see much has changed.

Trump is saying the same things and behaving the same way. If anything he may have reinforced his support because as a President he behaved exactly as he said he was going to.

Biden & Clinton? Well, I guess their home address is different, but not much else. Uninspiring with dodgy bits would describe either of them.

So, I think it's going to be damned close again and result in a week long acrimonious soap opera before Biden narrowly sneaks it.
 The US Election... - James Loveless
A few weeks ago I thought Biden's lead was convincingly wide and in most of the Swing States it still seems to be - Trump leads in Ohio by 2% and in Iowa by a weak 0.4%, but Biden leads solidly in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin, though less so in Florida, N. Carolina and Arizona.

I can't decide whether the media's perception that Trump is putting in a strong finish is anything more than the sound and fury from the Republican circus.

I agree Biden is an unattractive candidate, though Harris far less so.

Trump has indeed behaved as he promised and that, incredibly, still seems to appeal to a large proportion of the US. However, he has failed to deliver on some of his promises (e.g. The Wall), has presided over a slowing in economic growth (even before the pandemic) and has very obviously failed to provide any leadership in the pandemic. He has also contributed to the fragmentation of US society and has never reached out to the majority of Americans who voted for someone else last time.

But for his fervent supporters, none of it seems to matter. There is almost some bizarre personality cult at work, where normal perception of truth and fact are suspended.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
>>But for his fervent supporters, none of it seems to matter.

Agreed, and it is quite remarkable.

I suspect that considerable civil unrest could result from this election. God only knows how a messy result, or a disruptive loser, could magnify that.
 The US Election... - zippy
Speaking to some colleagues in our reciprocal office in the US, it’s going in favour of the Donald.

When asked they say because they think he thinks along the same lines as they do. This is American is great, they don’t like foreigners or different races and don’t like paying taxes.

It’s bizarre!
Last edited by: zippy on Tue 3 Nov 20 at 15:57
 The US Election... - No FM2R
I've said before, Trumps appeal is not that he promises to do much, it is that he vocally hates the same stuff they do; Washington, Establishment, Media, Communists, Foreigners.

So they think he's on their side, even if he is not particularly effective.
 The US Election... - smokie
I suspect there is a limp of people who would vote for him just because he has upset the establishment. It happens in other votes too these days...



Speaking of which, SWMBO was reading some posts to me from some"followers" of Strictly, on Facebook. They are more rabid and unbalanced than any voters (though I guess they will be voters too). They absolutely live for the programme... I don't get that either!
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 3 Nov 20 at 16:34
 The US Election... - CGNorwich
Clever how he has managed to convince his base that he is "one of them" depite the fact that he is in fact a rich New Yorker, born to wealth and privilege and I rather suspect actually despises his followers. He certainly has nothing in common with them. An odious man but certainly a clever and cynical one
 The US Election... - sooty123
>> Clever how he has managed to convince his base that he is "one of them"
>> depite the fact that he is in fact a rich New Yorker, born to wealth
>> and privilege and I rather suspect actually despises his followers. He certainly has nothing in
>> common with them. An odious man but certainly a clever and cynical one
>>

I think it's a bit more subtle than that, he stands for something that appeals that is he's dead set against pretty much everything the Democrats are for. Its not so much that he's one of them, although they'll be a fair few who believe that, it's more he can keep the status quo which they want to keep.

Many think the other side have tilted too far to the left, they aren't remotely interested in public sector health care, gun restrictions, many think the riots in the summer are more of the sort of thing to come should the other side get in.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
Gun restrictions make as much sense as prohibition or the war on drugs. Using the law to try to stop people doing something they really want to do only generates criminal activity.

The US problem with guns is not their law, it is that as a society they fundamentally want to own guns. Much as a junkie fundamentally wants to use drugs, an alcoholic alcohol and a gambler betting.

It won't get fixed by the law. It can't be.
 The US Election... - Zero
>> It won't get fixed by the law. It can't be.

It wont get fixed by any mean, law or hearts and minds. They see it as their cowboy heritage*, a constitutional right.


*Even tho "the wild west" and the cowboy is a very small and short part of American history and development.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 3 Nov 20 at 17:03
 The US Election... - James Loveless
"... he vocally hates the same stuff they do; Washington, Establishment, Media, Communists, Foreigners."

Add one more important thing to that list. He hates everyone who he perceives as being against him.

Apart from the bile he has spewed in the direction of the Democrats (the party generally, state governors, former presidents etc.) look at the list of those who he dispensed with because he considered they did not put loyalty above everything else (including the truth).

Fauci is next for the chop, apparently.

In the land of the free where anyone could succeed if they tried hard enough it is astonishing that such negativity should take hold. I mean, what is the future they look forward to? Just more hatred, more negativity? Where is the promised land?
 The US Election... - No FM2R
>>In the land of the free where anyone could succeed if they tried hard enough it is astonishing that such negativity should take hold

Not if you think about it.

If it is the land of the free, if you can succeed if you try hard enough, who do you blame if you fail?

The negativity comes from all those who have failed and want someone to blame rather than admitting that their failure is entirely of their own making.

The need for a scapegoat to avoid personal culpability drives a remarkable amount of social negativity and protest.
 The US Election... - James Loveless
"The need for a scapegoat to avoid personal culpability"

That's certainly true of Trump himself. The reason he hasn't build The Wall is because the nasty Democrats denied him the funding. If he's caught in a lie, it was because the media reported him falsely. If he loses the election, it will be because of cheating by the other side.

"No politician in history...has been treated worse or more unfairly," he said in 2017.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
Right.

And unfortunately that cry resonates with the fairly rubbish and frustrated who also feel that it's not their fault and that the nasty Liberals / Foreigners / Communists / Media / Washington have denied them their rightful rewards.

It's a broken country. My only concern is how far we may follow it down the same road. It's a road the likes of Farage want to take us down.
 The US Election... - Zero
>> "... he vocally hates the same stuff they do; Washington, Establishment, Media,

Because he cant control it it and they have rejected him, even before the election bid.
 The US Election... - sherlock47

>>Speaking to some colleagues in our reciprocal office in the US, it's going in favour of the Donald.<<<

They are his supporters - they would say that wouldn't they!


To quote from JL up-post

"But for his fervent supporters, none of it seems to matter. There is almost some bizarre personality cult at work, where normal perception of truth and fact are suspended."


My money is on a Democrat win on paper - followed by a legal challenge. Where will it all end? Gun sales are at an all time high I believe.

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-guns-insight/u-s-gun-sales-soar-amid-pandemic-social-unrest-election-fears-idUKKBN2701GB


 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> I suspect that considerable civil unrest could result from this election. God only knows how
>> a messy result, or a disruptive loser, could magnify that.

I share that suspicion.

There are various pro-Trump militias already on the ground; the harassment of the Biden bus in Texas is but one example.

I've also heard before the argument that the second amendment is as much about internal as external threats to the security of a free state.
 The US Election... - Manatee
>>Biden & Clinton? Well, I guess their home address is different, but not much else. Uninspiring with dodgy bits would describe either of them

Biden and Clinton are dodgy on a normal scale of dodginess. Trump is on a scale of his own.
 The US Election... - No FM2R

>> So, I think it's going to be damned close again and result in a week
>> long acrimonious soap opera before Biden narrowly sneaks it.


That's what I said, though it seems that "narrowly sneaks it" is going to turn out to be a lot more torturous, litigious and acrimonious than I envisaged.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
I was reading an article that said many people send in a postal vote and then go and vote in person, so cross checks to rule out duplicate votes must be made.

A question, do we have that issue in the UK? Can I register for a postal vote and then change my mind and vote in person at the last minute?
 The US Election... - tyrednemotional
AIUI, if you've registered for a postal vote, you can't vote in the normal fashion at a polling station.

OTOH, if you "miss the post" for the defined postal deadline, you can actually hand your postal vote in at a your normal polling station up to close of poll.
 The US Election... - henry k
>> AIUI, if you've registered for a postal vote, you can't vote in the normal fashion at a polling station.
>>
IIRC from the days I used to do the job, one of the flags on the electoral roll we were issued with at the polling station indicated a postal vote.

>> OTOH, if you "miss the post" for the defined postal deadline, you can actually hand
>> your postal vote in at a your normal polling station up to close of poll.
Yes that is correct.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
Anybody know when we start to see early results, exit polls, etc, etc?
 The US Election... - sooty123
First polls shut 23.00, get a better idea around 4-5.00am.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
UK time, I assume?
 The US Election... - sooty123
Yes.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> Anybody know when we start to see early results, exit polls, etc, etc?

The Guardian has a timeline:

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/02/us-election-2020-presidential-what-time-results-guide?
 The US Election... - zippy
0:08 GMT

Trump 11
Biden 0

So far Indiana 33% Biden 64% Trump at 8% counted.

May be an interesting night!
 The US Election... - Kevin
1am and 36 votes difference between them in Florida with 81% of votes counted.
 The US Election... - James Loveless
05:11 GMT

Biden 223
Trump 145

270 required to win
 The US Election... - sooty123
The BBC are saying 220 biden 213 trump.

Trump has won several states, texas and florida being the main two, by a pretty comfortable majority, certainly bigger majorities than what the polls thought.
 The US Election... - zippy
>> The BBC are saying 220 biden 213 trump.
>>
>> Trump has won several states, texas and florida being the main two, by a pretty
>> comfortable majority, certainly bigger majorities than what the polls thought.
>>

Second time the pollsters have got it wrong. They need to review their methodology.

 The US Election... - sooty123
They appear to have got 5 out of 6 important states correct, however by how many they were a fair bit out.
 The US Election... - smokie
SWMBO just read something out which said that one theory for the polls being inaccurate is that people don't want to admit to voting for Trump.

Could be true I suppose.
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 4 Nov 20 at 10:20
 The US Election... - James Loveless
The way things are going is very concerning.

Biden may well win, but even if he does, the likely closeness of the result and size of Trump's support mean that the probability of unrest after the election must now be a major concern.

The one thing that might have stopped that would have been a crushing defeat for Trump. The fact that this won't happen shows a lot of Americans have something seriously wrong with their thinking.
 The US Election... - Ambo
According to the Guardian (as culled by MS News) Trump has already claimed victory.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> According to the Guardian (as culled by MS News) Trump has already claimed victory.

He has. Live speech at around 07:00 our time.

It's completely false; college votes so far are Biden 238 Trump 213 with approx 70 seats undeclared.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 4 Nov 20 at 11:01
 The US Election... - sooty123
>> SWMBO just read something out which said that one theory for the polls being inaccurate
>> is that people don't want to admit to voting for Trump.
>>
>> Could be true I suppose.
>>

Shy trump voters I think the term is, in the US anyway. Or the poll companies are not getting it right.
 The US Election... - Runfer D'Hills
It does, though undoubtedly it probably shouldn't, still occur to me that in a country so populated and successful as the USA, as deeply surprising and concerning, that the best candidates they can come up with for about the most important job in the world, are Trump and Biden.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
224:213

So, a nightmare for the US.

Trump already complaining about fraud and threatening the Supreme Court, the Election isn't going to be a clear win for either, and the arguments have started.

Riots, court cases, and vitriolic statements to the media would appear to be the order of the day.

Whoever does finally win, I think the US is in for a pretty crap 4 years.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
As an aside, Trump's fund raising target for his 2020 Election campaign was $1bn.

Typically the Party National Committee and the Political Action Committee will contributes about half as much again to that candidate.

That's aside from anything the State pays for (admin, conferences, logistics).

That's a lot of money. And statistically the candidate who spends the most money wins. The one time that was not true was last time when Clinton spent more than Trump but lost.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 4 Nov 20 at 12:10
 The US Election... - Zero
I may be wrong, but I think Bidens pot was bigger, spent less on mass rallies, and more on advertising.

This is of course on top of the equally huge bribes budget
for the primaries and the candidacy.
 The US Election... - Duncan
Who do we - the British - want to win?

Biden seems much more sensible, rational and balanced. He is of Irish descent, he will support Ireland, which means to a greater or lesser degree not favour Britain.

Trump is a crass, vulgar, irrational man who is of Scottish descent(?), I think that when it comes to it he is more likely to favour Britain than Trump will.
 The US Election... - Zero

>> Trump is a crass, vulgar, irrational man who is of Scottish descent(?), I think that
>> when it comes to it he is more likely to favour Britain than Trump will.

He wont only when it suits him
 The US Election... - No FM2R
>>Who do we - the British - want to win?

Neither will particularly favour the UK unless there is some advantage in it for them.

Direct harm is also very unlikely from either of them, though there is always a higher chance of Trump taking umbrage, sulking and doing something petulant.

I think there's little doubt that Trump will screw up the US more than Biden. I don't think it is particularly clear that Biden will bring positive, more a lack of negative.

Some of the things that Trump has done Biden will politically need to be seen to undo, even if he doesn't particularly want to. There are definitely areas where it will suit Biden to be able to shrug his shoulders and say "nothing I can do, the Senate won't let me".

Other than the fact that Trump is in power, the Republicans don't particularly like him and much of the stuff he's done either. So it will equally suit them, on some issues, to say "not our fault, the [new] President made us revoke it".

Inactivity is as likely to come from each shoving it on to the other as from trying to stop each other.

Of more interest is their foreign policy and behaviour and the implications that will have on the world and, indirectly, us.

And that is complicated. The US losing it's position as Princess of all global relations and behaviour will be no bad thing.

And the US's treatment of China, for example, has pushed them into a PR exercise including significant environmental commitments. So that's not a bad thing in any way.

Trump's action is also removing the US's global monopoly on cell phone operating systems. Again not bad.

More difficult to predict is Russia. Trump's relationship with Russia is a worrying thing.
It will become bad if the US pressures another country so much that they decide to take action. Escalation is almost always bad.

Biden's likely international behaviour is not a known thing.

tl:dr - NAFC
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 4 Nov 20 at 14:04
 The US Election... - henry k
>> 224:213 >> So, a nightmare for the US.
>>
>> Trump already complaining about fraud and threatening the Supreme Court,
>>The Election isn't going to be a clear win for either, and the arguments have started.
>>
Prof Kim Wehle says
Don't think any cases will go ( eventually) to the Supreme Court.
There is a deadline of 08 Dec to complete such an action
There is no law to stop counting anywhere.
Some states may be challenged where postal votes although stamped up to 03 Nov but did not arrive by 03 Nov are not counted.
She said she thinks Biden will prevail.

>> Whoever does finally win, I think the US is in for a pretty crap 4 years.
>>
Kim said the Senate will screw any attempts to undo Trumps damage.

 The US Election... - Lygonos

I see Royal Mail shares are up over 10% today - this due to lockdown (and thus more parcels for Xmas) more than the US election presumably?

Haven't seen any new data from RM.
 The US Election... - Lygonos
As of 3:40pm GMT according the figures on the Beeb website, it's pretty much down to Michigan.

Assuming the other states go the way they appear to be, Michigan is 49.3% Biden, 49.1% Trump with approx. 10% of the votes still to be counted.

This may get very ugly if Biden wins by a whisker.
 The US Election... - henry k
>> Assuming the other states go the way they appear to be, Michigan is 49.3% Biden,
>> 49.1% Trump with approx. 10% of the votes still to be counted.
>>
If a state is won by less than 1% the loser ( only) can ask for a recount.

>> This may get very ugly if Biden wins by a whisker.
>>
Many others agree hence the significant boarding up of The White House, shops and other sites.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> As of 3:40pm GMT according the figures on the Beeb website, it's pretty much down
>> to Michigan.

What do they say about Pennsylvania?
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> What do they say about Pennsylvania?

The BBC have yet to 'call' Arizona although several other sources record it as a flip to Biden giving him 238.
 The US Election... - Robin O'Reliant
BBC reckons it will be Biden by a whisker.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
Wisconsin has been called for Biden by AP.

If he wins Nevada (counting again tomorrow) and Michigan then he's hit 270 with Pennsylvania still to play for.
 The US Election... - Terry
It is quite pathetic that a nation which claims leadership of the free world (and indeed the planet) are incapable of:

- having consistent unambiguous voting processes - postal votes, timescales etc etc
- producing a clear result within 24 hours

For Trump, "socialist" is an insult - although Joe Biden would sit comfortably inside the Tory centre ground in the UK. Why the Democrats selected a geriatric as their candidate beats me!

The closeness of the election reinforces the view that the US is culturally aligned to its cowboy past. "Look at me", "my gun is bigger than yours", "who's got the biggest c******" is integral to their feelings of self worth.

Far from world leadership, their actions are leading them towards marginalisation - dangerous when they still have dominant military capability.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
>>The closeness of the election reinforces the view that the US is culturally aligned to its cowboy past. "Look at me", "my gun is bigger than yours", "who's got the biggest c******" is integral to their feelings of self worth.

I often watch late night / early morning TV and I don't like shopping channels, so what I end up watching is loads of Police, Customs and similar TV. Mostly South American, Italian or Spanish, occasionally North American.

The belligerent, Dirty Harry Wannabee, self-important attitude of the US Authorities really stands out in comparison to the others. *REALLY* stands out.

Officious, stroppy, aggressive t***s. (You probably shouldn't move there, Zippy).

The difference constantly surprises me, and yet they are neither more effective nor more successful.

Their military personnel are similar.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 4 Nov 20 at 21:26
 The US Election... - Duncan
>> Why the Democrats selected a geriatric as their candidate beats me!
>>

Biden is 77. Born 20.11.42.
Trump is 74. Born 14.6.46.

Three years between them.
 The US Election... - Zero
>> >> Why the Democrats selected a geriatric as their candidate beats me!

Money.
 The US Election... - tyrednemotional
...not, I think, Biden's own, though. AIUI is one of the least wealth candidates of recent years.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
Jim Naughtie, covering the election for BBC R4 PM thinks the path back to the Whitehouse for Trump is now so narrow and twisty the it's no longer passable.

Biden needs only one from Nevada, Georgia or Pennsylvania (where counting has been suspended) to reach 270. That's per the Guardian using AP as it's source to call undeclared States. Other outfits have still to call both Arizona and Michigan.
 The US Election... - Zero
>> ...not, I think, Biden's own, though. AIUI is one of the least wealth candidates of
>> recent years.

The price of election is such a large sum that no candidate can fund it themselves. Trump can't, he's broke. Most of it comes from parties with a financial interest. A nomination is in effect bought.
 The US Election... - Zero
The USA is a god awful advert for the democratic process. Dictators, Autocrats and despots the world over are basking in the pool of legitimisation.
 The US Election... - zippy
Just watched Trump speak at about 19:00 EST (midnightish here).

What an a***.

Have been watching interviews with some of the American civil servants and local govt officials and elected representatives. They seem to be normal people doing a hard job.

 The US Election... - sooty123
www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54834584

I think he knows the game is up. I think the pressure has got to him.
 The US Election... - CGNorwich
Loved Greta Thunberg’s Tweet yesterday.
 The US Election... - Lygonos
Biden now a few hundred votes ahead in Georgia.

Chance of Trump winning seems very remote now.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> Biden now a few hundred votes ahead in Georgia.

Trump's lead in Pennsylvania is down to 18,000 with most outstanding uncounted ballots being from Philadelphia and Pittsburgh both of which are Democrat leaning.

>> Chance of Trump winning seems very remote now.

If Biden takes Pa then it's game over, even if Arizona flips back to Trump on late votes.
 The US Election... - henry k
Trump has many supporters

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-us-2020-54833319
 The US Election... - Lygonos
Delusional cretins do tend to stick together.

(look at any church congregation)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 6 Nov 20 at 12:18
 The US Election... - CGNorwich
>> Delusional cretins do tend to stick together.
>>
>> (look at any church congregation)
>>

Isn’t that just the sort of statement and language that makes Trump such a deeply unlikeable and unpleasant person?
 The US Election... - No FM2R
>> >> Delusional cretins do tend to stick together.
>> >>
>> >> (look at any church congregation)
>> >>
>>
>> Isn’t that just the sort of statement and language that makes Trump such a deeply
>> unlikeable and unpleasant person?


I certainly think that people making a big thing of such statements and creating an issue rather than simply ignoring and dismissing them is what gives Trump power and influence.
 The US Election... - CGNorwich
People like Trump and his supporters should stop to consider the effects of their words on others. It is is easy to say that the recipients of these insults should ignore them but unfortunately many find this difficult to do. Wrong perhaps but a fact of life. Bad manners and intemperate language encourages more of the same and this can even lead to violence as we have seen. We should all choose our language with care, especially those in positions of responsibility.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
>>People like Trump and his supporters should stop to consider the effects of their words on others

Yes they should. But I'm not holding my breath.

>> It is is easy to say that the recipients of these insults should ignore them but unfortunately many find this difficult to do.

I'd say "dismiss as unimportant" really. Obviously easier to say than do, but if you can't stop them saying it then you need to devalue or disarm it somehow.

>>Bad manners and intemperate language encourages more of the same and this can even lead to violence as we have seen

Unless the comment(s) are ignored or dismissed. Then it won't.

>>We should all choose our language with care, especially those in positions of responsibility

Yes, but I'm still not holding my breath.

Each to their own path, I guess.
 The US Election... - Zero
One thing that should be outlawed, both in the US and the UK, is the publication of election polls and forecasts. They serve no useful purpose, and can be misleading and deliberately interfere with and muddy the election process.
 The US Election... - Manatee
Never mind polls, why on earth do they give a running tally of the votes?

Trump, obviously, is just disgusting but what of 'respectable' republicans? Is Pence too cowed or venal to stand up and disown Trump's delusion? The republicans could have had him in the straitjacket long before now if they had any shame. There's no shortage of doctors willing to certify him incapable.

Generally I assume Trump's stupidity to be wilful and conscious, a technique he has honed in his business life, but I think he's in meltdown now. The Philadelphia story must be sending him further over the edge.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> One thing that should be outlawed, both in the US and the UK, is the
>> publication of election polls and forecasts. They serve no useful purpose, and can be misleading
>> and deliberately interfere with and muddy the election process.

If they're accurate then they serve a purpose and I don't see how it's possible to outlaw 'soundings' by the parties standing. Neither am I convinced that they mislead in any measurable way. I'd accept though the idea that publication in the last few days, as is/was law in some other countries, be banned though that may be overcautious.

The other issue, which should cause far more concern to the pollsters than the public, is why the things regularly get it wrong.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
>> Neither am I convinced that they mislead in any measurable way

I don't think much sways voters in the last week or so. Not polls, political broadcasts or rallies, etc. etc.

But I guess with a population of 328 million and elections being decided by 4,000 votes you don't need to sway many.
 The US Election... - Kevin
>We should all choose our language with care, especially those in position of
>responsibility.

In case someone is offended?

Yay! Let's shut down Private Eye and Charlie Hebdo!
 The US Election... - sooty123
I really don't know why it's taking this long, I'm not sure many other countries take this long, I think even places like India are done quicker than this.
 The US Election... - tyrednemotional
As someone commented somewhere:

"I was born and raised in Egypt. Our results are out before voting has even started!"

;-)
 The US Election... - sooty123
I think there's been a fair few variations on that joke this week!
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 6 Nov 20 at 13:28
 The US Election... - Rudedog
Biden will win.

Then resign mid-term due to ill health.

Step-up first female President.

 The US Election... - Zero
>> I really don't know why it's taking this long, I'm not sure many other countries
>> take this long,

The Guyanese Polling day was 2nd March 2020. The winner was sworn in on 2nd August. And that was with less than a 600,000 total vote count.
 The US Election... - smokie
drive.google.com/file/d/1Kkh8ELBLXO4nM8NzSuf4PCRtIAzdMIgK/view?usp=sharing

Taken from a social media app
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 6 Nov 20 at 14:48
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> I really don't know why it's taking this long, I'm not sure many other countries
>> take this long, I think even places like India are done quicker than this.

Because of the huge volume of postal ballots it's not a normal election.

Postal votes take longer to sort because the double enveloping and signatures for the security/secrecy of the ballot need to be verified. The electoral officials would have liked to process the early postal votes, at least to the point of verification, before polling day. In a significant number of States that was not allowed.

Florida declared early because following the debacle in 2000 they reorganised everything. They allowed early processing of postal votes.

And of course it's a very close fight so it's gone down to the last votes in key states; they'd normally be called by the networks long before a relative handful of absentee/military votes were counted.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
As an aside, I'm pretty damned sure that a Trump Jnr. will burst on to the political scene if [when] Trump Snr loses.
 The US Election... - Zero
>> As an aside, I'm pretty damned sure that a Trump Jnr. will burst on to
>> the political scene if [when] Trump Snr loses.

He will try for sure. Thats a dead cert. He has just however had a pop at most of the GOP elders and the political movers and shakers in Washington. A lot of enemies have just been created. People he will need.
 The US Election... - CGNorwich
When Trump finally accepts that he is no longer President what do you think he wii end up doing?

 The US Election... - Crankcase
Time.
 The US Election... - sooty123
Ranting on twitter probably.
 The US Election... - legacylad
Ask BBD. A predictable reply
 The US Election... - No FM2R
>> When Trump finally accepts that he is no longer President what do you think he
>> wii end up doing?


It's an interesting question. I think the *eventual* realisation that the world no longer cares what the thinks will be quite genuinely shocking for him. He will certainly try to rationalise what happened as someone else's crime.

I expect he believes that it will have some huge benefit to him as he tries to do various deals as part of his business empire. I suspect that it will be quite the opposite and in fact he will suffer from other people's retribution.

I should think he'll retreat to his ranch, or whatever he has, surround himself with sycophants and regale them all with his tales of "When I Wuz Grate".

A book has got to be odds-on. Ghost written of course.
 The US Election... - Lygonos
He may try again in 2024....
 The US Election... - No FM2R
Maybe he'll show up in the UK at Farage's next political rally.
 The US Election... - tyrednemotional
My suspicion is that (if the result does remain as it seems to be going) that the Trump brand will become toxic and devalued very quickly (if it isn't already).

The Republican party have indulged him in recognition of the power it brings them with a Republican president, but he has made few (if any) friends amongst those who really matter, and many of them find him, in all other respects, repugnant. The electorate has enabled what they themselves were to frightened to do.

In defeat, I expect him to be dropped, sooner rather than later, like a hot potatoe (see what I did there?)

Without power/influence, and reputedly without money either (it may well be that creditors will now be queuing up, where they wouldn't if they were dealing with The President, and could (reputedly) take him to the cleaners), he is rendered an "untouchable" (in the Indian sense).

There are a number of people that look like they will go into rapid decline with him. Rudy Giuliani is one, but most notably Steve Bannon, who seems to have fallen foul of his lack of finance and (pending) lack of friends in high places (following his latest outbursts re Fauci et al, even his lawyers have abandoned him).

The chances of the Republican party selecting him to stand in 2024 are less than zilch, though a return to populism and the politics of the gutter with a different candidate will depend on how Biden/Harris walk the very difficult path they've been selected for. The Trump-style support is not going away as fast as he himself might.
 The US Election... - smokie
I think there will be ongoing rumblings in the populace over the election and the loss of their leader, and it will be similar to the divisions BREXIT caused here but with violence. There are many people in the US who really believe in him.

I also wonder how long Biden will last for. The Mail has reported a couple of fairly serious "senior" moments in the past week or so which can only get worse as he gets older.
 The US Election... - sooty123
The ideas and movements that propelled Trump to the White House weren't of his making, they were there before he turned up, what he did do was have a very keen sense of what people wanted and how to use that to his advantage.

The political divide started years before, and it'll be there after he's gone. The question now is how do the current and future leaders deal with it?
 The US Election... - henry k
>> The political divide started years before, and it'll be there after he's gone.
>>
Maison Dixon ?
>> The question is now is how do the current and future leaders deal with it?
>>
A long job.
 The US Election... - sooty123
>> >> The political divide started years before, and it'll be there after he's gone.
>> >>
>> Maison Dixon ?

No not that far back, however this sort of thing is difficult to pin a date on. However I'd say the origins go back probably 20 years and started to gain momentum in the last 10.

>> >> The question is now is how do the current and future leaders deal with
>> it?
>> >>
>> A long job.
>>

Very much so.
 The US Election... - CGNorwich
They get it wrong simply because how some people say the will vote and how they actually vote are not the same. There is no way of eliminating this discrepancy. Polls can never be totally accurate. They are just straws in the wind. People place too much faith in them
 The US Election... - sooty123
The BBC and CNN have just called it for Biden. He's far enough ahead in Pennsylvania to make it his election. The other states are still counting, but too late to matter now.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
From the BBC....

"Trump statement: 'This election is far from over'

We have a statement from Donald Trump, who was apparently golfing at his Virginia resort when news broke that Joe Biden is projected to have won the presidency.

“We all know why Joe Biden is rushing to falsely pose as the winner, and why his media allies are trying so hard to help him: they don’t want the truth to be exposed," the written statement begins.

"The simple fact is this election is far from over," it says, correctly pointing out that the vote counts have not yet been certified by election officials and remain projections by news media.

However we should point out that this is normal after an election - the media projects a winner based on an analysis of the votes that have been counted.

Trump vows that "beginning Monday, our campaign will start prosecuting our case in court to ensure election laws are fully upheld and the rightful winner is seated", in a reference to legal challenges that have already been filed - and many rejected - in several states.

Trump claims, without evidence, that the Biden campaign "wants ballots counted even if they are fraudulent, manufactured, or cast by ineligible or deceased voters".

“So what is Biden hiding? I will not rest until the American People have the honest vote count they deserve and that Democracy demands."

Election observers and officials overseeing vote counts have repeatedly said that no widespread irregularities have been seen in the process."
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 7 Nov 20 at 17:17
 The US Election... - zippy
The Last Leg had an interesting view that went something like this...

Trump is frightened he will be prosecuted for crimes he committed.

Will therefore give up the office to Pence saying he's bored of it all now.

Pence will then pardon him for all crimes.
 The US Election... - sherlock47
>
>>
>> Will therefore give up the office to Pence saying he's bored of it all now.
>>
>> Pence will then pardon him for all crimes.
>>

Overnight, (or did I dream it?),* it was suggested that if this did happen, it would be possible to prosecute Pence for corruption offences - something along the lines of " receiving a reward in return for promise of an action".

* I am in the habit of sleeping with the radio on overnight - consequently I hear snippets of programs - mixed in with fairly lucid dreams!
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Sun 8 Nov 20 at 07:29
 The US Election... - No FM2R
>>My suspicion is that (if the result does remain as it seems to be going) that the Trump brand will become toxic and devalued very quickly (if it isn't already).

AS at this moment on BBC.COM front page and BBC.COM/NEWS there are *NO* articles about Trump, mentions of Trump or any statements by Trump.

Have they dumped him *that* quickly?
 The US Election... - Zero
>> >>My suspicion is that (if the result does remain as it seems to be going)
>> that the Trump brand will become toxic and devalued very quickly (if it isn't already).

The Brand could have survived, his tantrums on twitter post election however have plastered the whole brand name with ridicule. The press featuring the more stupid and unsavoury of his supporters wont help.
 The US Election... - Zero

>> AS at this moment on BBC.COM front page and BBC.COM/NEWS there are *NO* articles about
>> Trump, mentions of Trump or any statements by Trump.

A brief aberration, this is on the BBC front page

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54788636

Not a bad article as it happens.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> AS at this moment on BBC.COM front page and BBC.COM/NEWS there are *NO* articles about
>> Trump, mentions of Trump or any statements by Trump.

Since the last news conference on Thursday/Friday I don't think he's said anything other than angry tweets. Neither is there much domestic political action, that will presumably restart this week.

I don't think he ever worked weekends, he was reportedly golfing when Pennsylvania was called for Biden.

What coverage I've seen/heard has been wrapped up in items headlined Biden.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
Team Trump's press conference yesterday :

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/08/the-other-four-seasons-trump-team-holds-press-conference-at-suburban-garden-centre
 The US Election... - sooty123
What's with Giuliani, he seemed vaguely normal, although I can't say I followed his career much but since he started working for Trump he seems to have gone off the deep end.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 8 Nov 20 at 08:47
 The US Election... - R.P.
Borat made him look a right idiot.

For those that can't face watching the full movie.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b1tQco530
Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 8 Nov 20 at 09:13
 The US Election... - CGNorwich
From the Ayrshire Daily News comes surely the best headline of the election.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.ayrshiredailynews.co.uk/amp/south-ayrshire-golf-club-owner-loses-2020-presidential-election


Truly all news is local news.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 8 Nov 20 at 12:33
 The US Election... - henry k
>> From the Ayrshire Daily News comes surely the best headline of the election.
>>
>> Truly all news is local news.
>>
The trump campaign accidentally booking a press conference at something callled Four Seasons Total Landscape in Philadelphia instead of The Four Seasons Hotel they intended is such a perfect disfunctional way for this to end. The writers really out did themselves.

The Four Seasons Total Landscape parking lot between a Dildo store and a crematorium.

The press conference was also notable for Giuliani, who was describing the forthcoming legal challenges to the result, being told by a reporter that Joe Biden had just been declared the winner of the election. His response: “Don’t be ridiculous.”

The real hero today is whoever answered the phone at Four Seasons Total Landscape and offered no clarification whatsoever until it was too late.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/08/the-other-four-seasons-trump-team-holds-press-conference-at-suburban-garden-centre
 The US Election... - Manatee
I watched that on NBC. No wonder Giuliani looked confused. I thought it was just the ridiculous announcement of vexatious litigation.

Could there be a more fitting coda to the reign of the disgusting reptile? Whoever coolly took the booking without pointing out the obvious error deserves a medal.

I watched a few hours of US news channels yesterday, senior republicans are not in general supporting Trump, who looked as if he was in meltdown and then seems to have gone off to play golf.

His irresponsibility is breathtaking, he must know he is stoking up violent protests.
 The US Election... - CGNorwich
Have there been violent protests? Motvheard of any.
 The US Election... - sooty123
>> Have there been violent protests? Motvheard of any.
>>

I've read of a couple of incidents, one involving armed protesters trying to get in a vote count and a couple of plots to attack or blow up other similar places.
 The US Election... - Bromptonaut
>> The real hero today is whoever answered the phone at Four Seasons Total Landscape and
>> offered no clarification whatsoever until it was too late.
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/08/the-other-four-seasons-trump-team-holds-press-conference-at-suburban-garden-centre

Same link I posted this morning!!
 The US Election... - zippy
Pence claims Trump enabled the vaccine to be created.

Trump says the vaccine will be available to all the USA except New York! What a petulant child!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-54932067
 The US Election... - Terry
He personally set the ball running - first he told them to try bleach, then hit the virus with some sunlight.

When the scientists failed to turn his insights into reality he just left them to it. He knew of course that it was a chinese virus and real men like him could treat it with disdain and a few aspirin.

Just to prove it, he caught it and recovered in only a few days, taking a trip around town in the presidential limo just to prove it to his devoted rabbble.

Fortunately the scientists he had ignored since they failed so dismally at internal body sunlight, managed under his guidance to come up with a magic injectable potion.

Generously giving them the credit for their outstanding work, he modestly said his only part in their success was a few well chosen clues provided at the start of the project, and a never ending supply of funds he thoughtfully saved by cancelling the WHO subs.

He knows intuitively that this proves he actually won the election and that the democrats simply faked it. He has a lot of experience with fakes in the media.

 The US Election... - No FM2R
An interesting point on the BBC today, it is very rare that an incumbent President needs to concede. They usually win their second term and are not permitted three, so by the next election they are merely spectators whoever wins.

The Bush beaten by Clinton was the last time it happened.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 20 Nov 20 at 12:43
 The US Election... - Zero
There is an interesting theory that trump was always onto a loser. It centres around the fact Biden told his supporters to vote by post because of Corona Virus. They did in numbers because they knew they would be safe.

Trump told his supporters to turn out in person, because the China Virus wasn't to be worried about. They said they believed him, but when push came to shove, sone of them wouldn't risk it.
 The US Election... - No FM2R
Along from that I saw another theory that the polls were wrong because many people would vote Trump but not be prepared to admit it. They secretly liked his position(s) but thought it socially unacceptable.
 The US Election... - smokie
You heard it here first

www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=28229&m=616095

(Well, maybe not!)
 The US Election... - Zero
>> You heard it here first
>>
>> www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=28229&m=616095
>>
>> (Well, maybe not!)

Never let an original thought go un-plagiarised.
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