Does the water get too soft i wonder, most tablets have softener added but you are advised to keep the machine filled with salt too.
It's one white good i'd be loathed to do without.
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Fought of having one for years, but eventually gave in to the requests from the wife, have to say would not be without it now, but not the most important white good, that has to be the Fridge and washing machne, the rest are considered a small luxury.
Whilst we are on the subject of soft water, just bought a water softener and will plumb it in at the weekend, 4 yr old has mild eczema and it looks to be our hard water.
Can anyone answer this question, why are they so damn expensive !!!!! Was after one that goes for more than £1000, but settled for one at £650, but still hard to see that figure on the cc statement !!!!!
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it acts as a water softener! - helps the water and detergent soak the pottery better.
beaten! thanks to correcting a spelling mistake!! ;-)
Last edited by: devonite on Tue 26 Oct 10 at 20:25
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If you check with your water supplier (website) they should tell you if you need salt or not, (we don't), which is pretty obvious as nothing collects scale in our area.
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I gathered that is was a softener, but Mrs MD bowls along as ever. I've 'ad me dinner so I can argue a bit now. I had a thought earlier that perhaps the salt contributed to the almighty swirling mess on stuff within, abrasive carp and all that.
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IIRC, it's the resin compound in the water softener that has a chemical reaction with the water, removing the 'hardness. Passing a salt solution through the resin compound creates another chemical reaction that returns the resin compound to its original state and creates a compound that's flushed down the waste pipe.
There's a long chemical equation somewhere in my '60s text books.
Claiming a detergent can soften the water's a load of hype. It doesn't soften the water for the pre-wash rinse or any of the subsequent rinses, particularly the all important final rinse.
Here you are, courtesy of Wiki:
How it works
The water to be treated passes through a bed of the resin. Negatively-charged resins absorb and bind metal ions, which are positively charged. The resins initially contain univalent hydrogen, sodium or potassium ions, which exchange with divalent calcium and magnesium ions in the water. As the water passes through the resin column, the hardness ions replace the hydrogen, sodium or potassium ions which are released into the water. The "harder" the water, the more hydrogen, sodium or potassium ions are released from the resin and into the water.
Resins are also available to remove carbonate, bi-carbonate and sulphate ions which are absorbed and hydroxyl ions released from the resin. Both types of resin may be provided in a single water softener.
[edit] Regeneration
As these resins become loaded with undesirable cations and anions they gradually lose their effectiveness and must be regenerated. If a cationic resin is used (to remove calcium and magnesium ions) then regeneration is usually effected by passing a concentrated brine, usually of sodium chloride or potassium chloride, or hydrochloric acid solution through them. For anionic resins a solution of sodium or potassium hydroxide (lye) is used.
Most of the salts used for regeneration get flushed out of the system and may be released into the soil or sewer. These processes have been researched and deemed to have no negative environmental impact upon soil. The Water Quality Association (WQA) sponsored research at the University of Wisconsin (Madison) and at the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) in an effort to conduct comprehensive studies to confirm or reject these assumptions. As a result, conclusive evidence revealed that, in fact, a water softener's discharge posed no harm to the soil, and in some cases caused enrichment. "The increased sodium content in a water softener's discharge was shown to have no detrimental effect on the soil's ability to absorb water in a normal drainage field. Interestingly, certain soil conditions benefitted from it. Additionally, when the softener's calcium-rich regeneration backwash emptied into the septic system, the discharge could actually improve the soil's percolation. (Gypsum, a high calcium mineral, has long been used to increase the porosity of clay soils.)" (Water Quality Association, 2009)
In industrial scale water softening plants, the effluent flow from re-generation process can be very significant. Under certain conditions, such as when the effluent is discharged in admixture with domestic sewage, the calcium and magnesium salts may precipitate out as hardness scale on the inside of the discharge pipe. This can build up to such an extent so as to block the pipe, as happened to a major chlor-alkali plant on the south Wales coast in the 1980s.[citation needed]
If potassium chloride is used, the same exchange process takes place, except that potassium is exchanged for the calcium, magnesium and iron instead of sodium. This is a more expensive option and may be unsuited for people on potassium-restricted diets.
In residential or small commercial softeners. salt bridges and salt cakes can easily occur if no routine maintenance is performed. This could be done by poking a broom handle down the salt tank to break up salt clumps and bridges. Also, every so often, salt should be emptied out of the tank, and the sides of the brine tank should be wiped down with a diluted vinegar/water solution.
Last edited by: bathtub tom {p} on Tue 26 Oct 10 at 20:39
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>>It's one white good i'd be loathed to do without. <<
me too! - remember having to fish a cup out of the previous nights cold washing up bowl first thing in the morning? ;-/
before meeting the present kitchen appliance operator, i was toying with the idea of getting two! then i could use clean pots out of one, and put them straight back into the other after use, that way i wouldn`t need to keep putting them away in the cupboard! - three half lagers an a smile saved me over two hundred quid! - bargain!!
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There was a classic surreal retro black and white commercial about a woman waking up from a nightmare where she didn't have a dishwasher.
She was a tiny figure at the bottom of an enormous swirling sink full of crockery.
It was overcoming women's (the "housewife") instinctive opposition to dishwashers that brought about their sudden acceptance in the UK. Men of course had always been in favour, and even sometimes married one.
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The next time I move house, I will make sure there is room for two dishwashers, side by side.
One to drop the dirty pots into, one to take clean pots from. Then my life will be perfect.
I hate loading and unloading the damned thing and my wife always does it wrong.
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Have you got the new kind with a shelf on top for the cutlery, instead of a basket?
They are a real pain to load, placing the spoons etc all carefully back to back, but the labour amply pays off when you unload, because you can just scoop up all the spoons, say, in one hand and dump them straight in the drawer.
With the old basket method, it was important NOT to put all the spoons together, because they stacked themselves too neatly together and got glued with the food stuck in between.
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>> With the old basket method, it was important NOT to put all the spoons together,
>> because they stacked themselves too neatly together and got glued with the food stuck in
>> between.
#
My Bosch has sufficient jet power to separate them. You can actually hear the spoons jingling as they are attacked.
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...You can actually hear the spoons jingling as they are attacked...
Not good for the Iffy family silver cutlery.
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Oh but the butler cleans the silver.
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...Oh but the butler cleans the silver...
If the butler cleans your cutlery, what do you have to put in a dishwasher?
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...The spode dinner service...
Damn thing wouldn't do that a lot of good, despite what the manufacturer tells you.
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>> With the old basket method, it was important NOT to put all the spoons together,
OLD basket method. Our 4-y-o new Bosch dishwasher has a basket. No we don't put spoons together, we call it "spooning" ho ho v. droll my dere.
What pray is the new method? Serious question; can any of you dishwasher anoraks help me expand my knowledge?
PS Northern Richmond has the limeyest water ever; I'm always filling the salt dispenser.
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"What pray is the new method? Serious question; can any of you dishwasher anoraks help me expand my knowledge?"
It's a Miele thing - a thin third drawer at the top of the machine where you lay the cutlery out - ours just goes in mixed up, don't bother separating it. Once you get used to it, you wonder who ever though the basket was a good idea - you get covered in cack putting the utensils in, you stab youself with knives sticking out, and it occupies half the bottom shelf where you could be putting pans etc!!
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Quite so.
But I think it is worth taking the trouble to group similar items, firstly as I said it makes it quick to empty, but also you can get twice as much in if curved spoons and straight knives are not mixed.
I didn't realise it was just Miele. Most of the machines I looked at recently had them, I thought.
The next breakthrough in dishwasher technology needs to be extra long prongs for beer glasses. The only way in ours to stop them falling over is to wedge them in between the plates
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The bosch has a plastic side support to keep the beer classes upright (upside down of course)
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Here's a question for you all.
Do you load the washer from the back working towards the front of the machine or front to back?
I always fill it from the back first to avoid running my arm and sleeve against manky cereal bowls, but 'er indoors insists it should be loaded front to back.
Blimey, what a sad life I lead, posting questions about how to load a damn dishwasher...
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Ashamed to admit I really didn't know we had one until a couple of years ago. Apparently it has been here 8 years. My wife tells me it is very good. I'm pleased for her of course. She works jolly hard bless her...
:-)
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Wine glasses are a bit of a pain.
I've found the best way to stack shot glasses is to place them facing down on the handles of knives.
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I find ours is good for cleaning engine parts (when SWMBO's out). The detergent they use is powerful stuff.
A colleague used a dishwasher detergent in his cooling system to clean out the oil from a blown head gasket. Reckon it cleared it a treat after several flushes failed.
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I always sort the cutlery into the basket. Generally not very difficult - starter knives and forks all appear when the starter is finished, so go into starter knife & starter fork sections. Main course likewise, and pudding forks go in with starter knives, and spoons separately.
The female half of the world thinks I am mad, but it makes life so much easier.
(On holiday once with a paid cook. We had to stack & unload dishwasher. I'd faffed with that wretched Miele thing and loaded it beautifully, everything in order. Following morning, cookie dumped contents on kitchen table & I had to re-sort it in order to put it into drawers. Anybody but a paid cook I'd have shouted...)
PS My dishwasher is called Helga.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 27 Oct 10 at 14:51
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"The female half of the world thinks I am mad"
They know nothing about dishwasher etiquette. My wife will cut a couple of slices off a bloomer and then dump the bread knife in the dishwasher, meaning it can't be used for a couple of days.
She will pack it well and tight with filthy cups, saucers, mugs, cutlery and then place a couple of huge salad bowls over everything so the jets can't reach.
Or she'll pack the pans first (that have done nothing more arduous than boil water and could really be rinsed under the tap) and then try and and squeeze everything else in around them.
But normally, she just piles everything in to the sink.
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>>
>> I've found the best way to stack shot glasses is to place them facing down
>> on the handles of knives.
>>
Ah, there's an advantage of the old method.
Stack from the back, obviously. Then as it fills up, you don't need to pull the drawers out so far. People who stack from the front are probably the same as those who hang bog roll down the wall instead of nicely to hand at the front.
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We don't have a washing up machine and never will. The way to avoid having to fish a cup out of a cold sink in the morning is to wash it before you go to bed. It is also possible, with a little domestic co-operation, particularly when entertaining, to wash-up course by course if necessary, so there isn't much left at the end of the evening anyway.
I am filled with horrified fascination at the idea that someone could want two washing up machines in the same kitchen.
In my opinion, if washing up machines and tumble dryers were banned, the world's energy problems would be solved overnight.
But I know when I'm on a loser...
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>> In my opinion, if washing up machines and tumble dryers were banned, the world's energy
>> problems would be solved overnight.
You sure, Mike?
www.treehugger.com/files/2009/01/built-in-dishwasher-vs-hand-washing-which-greener.php
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I'm the dishwasher in this house. Wife was put off them many years ago when she stayed with various friends who had them. Without exception they stank as they sat there for a few days accumulating a load. Just can't see the point.
John
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>>Wife was put off them ............... Without exception they stank as they sat there for a few days accumulating a load.
I worked with a guy that had that problem. We told him to try the 'rinse and hold' facility and leave the door ajar when not in use. He came back after a few days and said it 'worked, it was what the instructions said'.
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>> >>Wife was put off them ............... Without exception they stank as they sat there for
>> a few days accumulating a load.
>>
>> I worked with a guy that had that problem. We told him to try the
>> 'rinse and hold' facility and leave the door ajar when not in use. He came
>> back after a few days and said it 'worked, it was what the instructions said'.
>>
21-y-o son complained about that when we left him in the house on his own while we went on hols this year.
"It smelt really bad after the first week". Well it would wouldn't it? And ...
"I spent ages looking for something the cats had killed and hidden". No, you clot, it was either the dishwasher or the compost container, unemptied for three weeks.
I did teach him how to wash up manually, honest.
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>>21-y-o son complained about that when we left him in the house on his own while we went on hols this year. "It smelt really bad after the first week".
Nah, you're making it up. No 21-y-o lad would notice anything smelling sweeter than his bedroom. ;>)
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Doesn't your Jaguar have two V6s bolted together Mike!!!??
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>> In my opinion, if washing up machines and tumble dryers were banned, the world's energy
>> problems would be solved overnight.
>> But I know when I'm on a loser...
I think you're probably right about tumbly driers although going back to clothes horses and washing hung over the bath is too muchto contemplate....
Dishwashers use about the same amount of water as a couple of bowls in the sink (I was always washing in soup long before getting to the pans). And they only heat as much water as is needed without leaving as much again to go cold in the pipes.
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Never put glasses in a dishwasher unless they are cheap and you don't mind them going cloudy.
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>>Doesn't your Jaguar have two V6s bolted together Mike!!!??<<
Yes, but I don't switch it on very often ;-)
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Missed BBD's comment about two dishwashers. Absolutely. Though I'm not sure about unloading from one into the other...
I generally find that there's always more washing up than will fit into one dishwasher. So the most efficient option is to have two.
On the loo roll topic, how is it that women manage to tear it otherwise than along the perforations. No man would.
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How come men can point but still can't manage to hit a space that 18'' across?
Dishwashers....they don't sooth painful hands and anyway I have a washing up fairy. He looks good in a pinny!
Pat
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I don't do washing up Pat except for my Le Creuset pans which get treated with the utmost respect. I've had them for decades and they are still in very good nick. I do most of the cooking though and shopping for food. Love it in fact but I genuinely didn't know we had a dishwasher until relatively recently. It dioesn't get used very often and is concealed behind a false door in the same style as the rest of the kitchen units. Still wouldn't know how to work it to be honest.
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I regard dishwashers as an aid for the disabled.
I'll get one only when everyone in the household becomes too old, addled and/or crippled to wash up manually.
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Well Humph, that's just about completed the picture.
A lycra clad garden gnome, attempting to do wheelies while dancing around in a gingham frilly pinny, washing his Le Creuset pans.
God spare me from men who cook.
I've made two Christmas cakes today and we have liver in onion gravy tonight, so today I am qualified to make that statement:)
Pat
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Steady on Pat ! Two words "Potato" "mashed" .....
Anyway a D/w has been debated and will be duly installed in our next home. I hate washing up and will only do it when listening to the Archers...
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...I've made two Christmas cakes today and we have liver in onion gravy tonight...
Thought you said you can't cook?
I'm quite partial to a bit of liver.
It was one of the few edible school dinners.
Can be tough if over-cooked, mind.
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>> Can be tough if over-cooked, mind.
Its a mere minute between creamy tender and shoe leather.
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...Its a mere minute between creamy tender and shoe leather...
Rarely buy it.
Any thoughts on which animal to go for?
Lamb's?
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Yes - lamb's is best IMHO.
Pig's & cow's liver is too strongly flavoured for our taste
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Calves liver is best, if you can get it, followed by lamb.
Wont touch pigs liver.
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>>we have liver in onion gravy tonight
With a couple of rashers of bacon and a good dose of garlic in the gravy, I hope?
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Mountain bikers don't do Lycra. Real cooks don't do aprons either and I've got almost nothing in common with a gnome. Don't even fish and don't own any tights. So, all told, not a particularly accurate picture I'm afraid.
:-)
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>> Stack from the back, obviously. Then as it fills up, you don't need to pull
>> the drawers out so far. People who stack from the front are probably the same
>> as those who hang bog roll down the wall instead of nicely to hand at
>> the front.
>>
Female?
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"Stack from the back, obviously. Then as it fills up, you don't need to pull the drawers out so far. People who stack from the front are probably the same as those who hang bog roll down the wall instead of nicely to hand at the front"
You are so right Cliff.
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>> The bosch has a plastic side support to keep the beer classes upright (upside down
>> of course)
>>
All of us Beer (C)lasses stay upright...until.............>
MD
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There are, generally, 2 dishwasher 'camps' - those that have one and couldn't imagine life without one; and those that don't and can'timagine why you'd possibly want one, and trot out all the reasons for not having one (more often than not without having tried it for a few weeks).
The camps are alive and well on here!
Me, I'm firmly in the former - when you go somewhere that hasn't got one, you remember just what a ball ache all that washing up is!
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how long does it take to wash dishes? i work in a care home where we got a professional dishwasher a electrloxus, and it takes roughly 5-7 mins per load to wash.
Do the domestic dish washers wash as fast as that ?
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Reckon our domestic Meile on a normal wash takes around an hour including drying time, pre wash (glorified rinse off) lasts about 10 mins.
That washer sounds a mean machine Sajid, what on earth does it do to the dishes to get them clean so quick.
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The full wash / dry cycle on our bosch is about 2 hours.
I think the commercial ones use pretty vigorous cleaning stuff.
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its got its own voltage supply about 400v and uses jeyes dishwasher detergent and rinse aid, i thought that all diswasher took a few mins to wash but 2 hours or a hour is too long when you got another load to wash as well.
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>> how long does it take to wash dishes?
>>I work in a care home where we got a professional dishwasher a electrloxus, and it takes roughly 5-7 mins per load to wash.
>>
I was recently involved in washing up at a local village hall after an evening event and yes their dishwasher also took just a few minutes to wash but we had to drain the items off and dry them. Everyone was impressed as previously things were very slow.
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For lightly soiled dishes a lot of dishwashers have a quick wash. Ours gets most things clean and it is around 30 minutes but like any good dishwasher it is variable depending on how dirty things are.
The other two programmes (55-65 deg C and 70 deg C) are nearer two hours total. Again depends on how dirty dishes are. When it does a rinse the water quality sensor checks for food and therefore decides if it can be used for the wash or clean water is used.
Ours is probably on daily so it never smells and it must save us at least 30+ minutes per day. And uses less water than hand washing and we have a water meter... so water costs.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 27 Oct 10 at 22:30
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It doesn't matter how long it takes, its the quality that counts.
We set ours in the evening to come on during the night on the cheaper electricity rate. All nicely done, rinsed and dried by morning.
What on earth's the point of standing over it waiting?
I can see the ultimate advantage in having two. That way you wouldn't need to empty the one that had been on - just treat it as the storage place for all the contents, and use as required, meanwhile filling up the other machine for the next wash. You would probably save on storage space at least equal to the space occupied by the second dishwasher.
One irksome social chore/dilema that has now thankfully passed is whether to offer to help your hosts do the washing up. Nowadays anyone who doesn't have a dishwasher can be presumed to enjoy washing up, so can just be left to get on with it.
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Dishwasher - Iffy
