|
Treasonable activity, punishable by death, or the best laugh since the MPs' expenses scandal?
|
|
Or a total waste of everybody's time, perpetrated by some sad little misfit with a persecution complex?
Last edited by: paulb on Fri 3 Dec 10 at 10:04
|
|
Diplomats and politicians caught telling the truth, no wonder they are upset. :-)
|
|
And we trust the Americans' judgement on stuff outside their borders ?
|
On the basis of what I've read and heard so far, tomorrow's headline - for want of something polite - will be 'Pope suspected of strong links with Vatican'.
|
Treason, punishable by hanging.
I see that people are boycotting Amazon (allegedly) for pulling the service on Wikileaks. Strangely I had decided to boycot Amazon for hosting it in the first place...
More intriguingly I class myself as a libertarian, but I think that sometimes - e.g. national security - that privacy is important.
|
I think its all jolly good fun. Its made for far more interesting news than Jordans driving.
Will it do much damage? There seems very little we didnt already know or suspect.
Im waiting for some Climate Change leaks. Now that would be fun.
|
It's all so dull, of course the Americans talk about other world leaders behind their backs, our lot will be doing the same.
Last edited by: Iffy on Fri 3 Dec 10 at 11:58
|
>> More intriguingly I class myself as a libertarian, but I think that sometimes - e.g.
>> national security - that privacy is important.
>>
Wikileaks.org web domain now de-registered.
libertarian - a difficult one, a case of blaming the messenger. Look at the "top ten" previous leaks 9as rated by The Telegraph) hosted on the website:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8070253/Wikileaks-10-greatest-stories.html
re. Mike Hannon "tomorrow's headline - for want of something polite - will be 'Pope suspected of strong links with Vatican'." Already been done by someone. first day it was "Pope is Catholic", second day it was "Pope is still Catholic".
Last edited by: John H on Fri 3 Dec 10 at 12:04
|
...Already been done by someone. first day it was "Pope is Catholic", second day it was "Pope is still Catholic"...
Richard Littlejohn mined that vein of humour in the Daily Mail a few days ago:
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1334274/WikiLeaks-latest--Pope-Catholic.html
|
>> Wikileaks.org web domain now de-registered.
213.251.145.96/
|
Think they could publish the secret tapes of the England 2018 World Cup Bid Team discussing why they lost?
|
|
Bearing in mind the oppresive and widespread scrutiny to which we and our communications are subjected I don't think "They" should kick up a fuss when the methods are applied to them!
|
|
My initial and instinctive reaction is to disagree with the leaking of these documents - however when you consider how slack HMG has been with our data over the years, I can't help but laugh..
|
>> however when you consider how slack HMG has been with our data over the years,
>> I can't help but laugh..
>>
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/siprnet-america-stores-secret-cables
"it can be accessed not only by anyone in the state department, but also by anyone in the US military who has a computer connected to Siprnet. Millions of US soldiers and officials have "secret" security clearance. The US general accounting office identified 3,067,000 people cleared to "secret" and above in a 1993 study. Since then, the size of the security establishment has grown appreciably. Another GAO report in May 2009 said: "Following the terrorist attacks on September 11 2001 the nation's defence and intelligence needs grew, prompting increased demand for personnel with security clearances." A state department spokesman today refused to say exactly how many people had access to Siprnet."
|
Should have said
Makes compulsive, but disturbing, viewing
tinyurl.com/ygajvoz
|
Well ... my stance is that I'm pro Wikileaks, and always have been, I have watched the full length video of the civilians and journalists being killed in Iraq by Americans, I have seen the results of missiles launched from drones, and I don't and have never supported the bush/b-liar wars.
I have also followed what good work George Galloway has done in the middle east over the years - especially in Palestine and I keep up to date with his work via spiderednews.com.
|
Dog said:
>> Well ... my stance is that I'm pro Wikileaks, and always have been, I have
>> watched the full length video of the civilians and journalists being killed in Iraq by
>> Americans, I have seen the results of missiles launched from drones, and I don't and
>> have never supported the bush/b-liar wars.
There is something to be said for releasing information about abuse of civilians if it means that the abusers are brought to book, or future abuse is prevented. But this stuff was not of that kind.
>> I have also followed what good work George Galloway has done in the middle east
>> over the years - especially in Palestine and I keep up to date with his
>> work via spiderednews.com.
Galloway is a copper bottomed fruit cake. And very naive.
|
>> Galloway is a copper bottomed fruit cake. And very naive.
I'm not sure naive is a word i'd instinctively associate with Galloway. What makes you say that?
I'm not having a go, i'm genuinely interested. I think he's silver tongued enough that i have to watch him twice as closely - these types often have a skill in diverting attention exactly where they want it to go whilst lulling me into a false sense of security without me noticing.
As much as i'm skeptical of him (and others like him) i've never seen him trip up yet, and he has racked up a lot of credit in my book so far for positive actions.
|
He can put on a good performance.. if you've 10 minutes, here's a snippet that starts slowly and builds up a bit:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnflzhtDkJM
|
>> He can put on a good performance.. if you've 10 minutes, here's a snippet that
>> starts slowly and builds up a bit:
10 minutes? compulsive viewing i had to watch the whole lot again, thanks for the reminder link there FT.
Something very satisfying seeing GG wiping the floor with smug members of the status quo.
|
...Something very satisfying seeing GG wiping the floor with smug members of the status quo...
I think Status Quo have got more brains than that brainless senator.
To me, GG is all puff and bluster.
britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8903300
Last edited by: Iffy on Thu 9 Dec 10 at 02:02
|
" have also followed what good work George Galloway has done in the middle east over the years - especially in Palestine and I keep up to date with his work via spiderednews.com."
May I suggest that before you jump to any conclusions formed from the rantings of a self publicising has been, you actually visit the Middle East and talk to all parties. You may find that it is not as black and white as you imagine.
I would not dream of telling you that only the Israelis have the answers (in any event there are more opinions in Israel than there are citizens), but equally have you wondered why it is the Europeans who are supporting the Palestinians and not the oil rich Arab states of the Gulf?
|
|
the only thing Gorgeous George cares about is Gorgeous George.
|
"but equally have you wondered why it is the Europeans who are supporting the Palestinians and not the oil rich Arab states of the Gulf? "
Many of them are dictatorships, ruled by a small unelected group who oppose rights for the citizens. Many are full of foreign workers on low wages, with no rights at all. The Palestinian cause is a nice way to take attention away from problems at home.
|
>> Treasonable activity, punishable by death, or the best laugh since the MPs' expenses scandal?
I'm against it. A lot of the stuff is pretty minor as far as we are concerned, and hardly big news, but it could make life difficult for diplomats and the like in the future, if they cannot speak frankly to allies. But the real issue is why so many people had access to so much supposedly restricted information. A bit of a balls up on the part of the Americans I think.
|
More helpful information leaked...but helpful to who?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11923766
|
It seems that Swiss bank accounts aren't the refuge they once were.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11929034
|
|
The gnomes of Zurich aren't happy ! :-)
|
Looks like there's more to Wikileaks than whistle blowing:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11935539
|
Every story ive read suggests these attacks are by sympathisers, not Wikileaks. Pays to read the text as the headlines are abit misleading.
It is quite interesting seeing just how much reach the US government has, although I dont think its a suprise, its interesting to see it in action.
It rather amuses me that there is a fightback - I dont think anyones going to win as such, but its a nice virtual war.
I wonder how long it will be before Assange finds himself on a plane to the US that lands at undisclosed locations in the UK on his way to an uncertain future. Gutsy fella though, right or wrong - I expect Iran and North Korea will take him in!
|
...these attacks are by sympathisers, not Wikileaks...
Stu,
I was trying not to over-analyse the source of the attacks.
As I understand it, Wikileaks is a loose alliance of thousands of journalists/whistleblowers, so arresting the founder has very little impact on what is wiki-leaked.
My interest in the story perked up when I saw one of the sympathisers is the rather delectable Jemima Khan.
|
>> As I understand it, Wikileaks is a loose alliance of thousands of journalists/whistleblowers, so arresting
>> the founder has very little impact on what is wiki-leaked.
>>
"wiki" meaning explained by wikipedia: - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki
BTW, to make it clear to anyone who is not aware, wikileaks has nothing to do with wikipedia.
|
be afraid for the future of the internet as im sure these disclosures are as bad as what china chooses to seek by making the wwb no such thing
big brother may soon close that link you went to
|
|
But then it works both ways Bb - 'they' know more about me, than I do.
|
quite true
how does it go
lies lies and more lies
i believe
menwith hill ,testing,testing...........
|
I deplore the Wikileaks website. It does a great deal of harm. However these trumped up charges against Assange are so transparent in their nature as to be worthy of a thriller novel rather than real life.
Surely it was easier to bump him off in a car accident? Get in the people who sorted Diana out for the Windsors.
|
|
The wikileaks thing is all a lot of hot air. None of it is really that secret, and its pretty bi-partisan, not favouring any one side or view over another.
|
Well that's true. I like to think I have a reasonable idea of what governments really think about other governments and personalities and the Leaks have confirmed my thoughts. Some are obvious - Berlusconi/Gaddafi etc etc. Some less so, but its nice to know that Iran and North Korea really are the pariahs of world.
I don't give China much credit, but at least they realise that North Korea is out of control and likely to do something very stupid without a slap across the face.
Last edited by: Espada III on Wed 8 Dec 10 at 21:37
|
>>However these trumped
>> up charges against Assange are so transparent in their nature as to be worthy of
>> a thriller novel rather than real life.
>>
There is a very detailed lurid account on the internet, of allegedly what happened, as told by the two women who are accusing Assange of the sexual crime.
Have you read it? If not, do so and then give us your opinion of the charges.
|
>> There is a very detailed lurid account on the internet, of allegedly what happened, as
>> told by the two women who are accusing Assange of the sexual crime.
I think the courts should decide. Rather than allow the masses to decide based on details revealed to the media.
|
>> I think the courts should decide. Rather than allow the masses to decide based on
>> details revealed to the media.
>>
I agree, but it would be useful to know whether Espada formed his opinion before or after reading the details.
BTW, the names, photographs, place of employment etc. of the two women are plastered all over wikileaks supporters blogs, and there is a campaign afoot to bully, harass and intimidate these women - just as they are attacking Paypal, Visa, and Mastercard.
|
>> BTW, the names, photographs, place of employment etc. of the two women are plastered all
>> over wikileaks supporters blogs, and there is a campaign afoot to bully, harass and intimidate
>> these women - just as they are attacking Paypal, Visa, and Mastercard.
The hacking of PayPal etc is disgraceful. A small minority of thugs take it up on themselves to cause mayhem. Whatever happened to democracy? This morning R4 interviewed a hacker using a pseudonym. Evan Davis took me back when he admiringly asked the scumbag "How did you get into this". R4 should be ashamed of giving free publicity to these scum, and giving the impression they approved of their activities. Disgraceful.
|
...R4 should be ashamed of giving free publicity to these scum, and giving the impression they approved of their activities. Disgraceful...
The many Gurdianistas sat in the ivory tower of BBC, awash as it is with public money, will think any attack on American capitalism is a good thing.
Must say I thought Evan Davis had a bit more sense.
|
Hackers is a bit of a strong term for this, no breach or unauthorised entry is being performed here. Although DDOSers isn't exactly memorable.
As you were :-)
P.s. if anyone felt the urge to join the digital protest / picket line, it's very easy to join in even for non technical users. Google "low orbit ion cannon". Not my cup of tea, but i wouldn't stop anyone.
|
>> P.s. if anyone felt the urge to join the digital protest / picket line, it's
>> very easy to join in even for non technical users. Google "low orbit ion cannon".
>> Not my cup of tea, but i wouldn't stop anyone.
Good idea, as long as you don't mind risking prison for a few years
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ddos#Denial-of-service_attacks_and_the_law
...and spending those years trying to deny service to your cellmate.
At least it would be in a good cause, supporting those good folks who must urgently release lists of strategically important sites to the world.
|
...Get in the people who sorted Diana out for the Windsors...
I thought that was one dumb conspiracy theory which had been laid to rest.
|
Not if you ask my wife who is "convinced" she was done away with.
I find the proximity (timewise) between the release of the US files and the allegations against Assange to be remarkable. I am happy to wait for the trial I just have this unhappy feeling he has been set up.
Don't get me wrong - as said above I deplore his actions regarding the Leaks and do not hold him in any favour.
|
>> I find the proximity (timewise) between the release of the US files and the allegations
>> against Assange to be remarkable. I am happy to wait for the trial I just
>>
25 July 2010, WikiLeaks published secret documents related to the war between the U.S. and the Taliban in Afghanistan.
21st August 2010, rape allegations made against Julian Assange.
|
|
you have to say, its very convenient.
|
...you have to say, its very convenient...
You do, but as with most conspiracy theories, too many people have to go along with it.
In this case, the whole criminal justice system of a third country.
It may be that after whatever happened, happened, the girls were more inclined to make the allegations because of who they knew him to be.
But to say the whole thing is a plot by the Americans is just not credible.
|
|
Am I missing something ? These allegations have been bubbling under the surface for some weeks if not a few months ??
|
|
I believe the allegations leading to the arrest were made in August (or maybe that's the events which led to the allegations). Seems to me he played around a bit too fast and loose for his own good - having slept with one woman he then slept with another in quick succession, and they happened to speak to each other about it - hell hath no fury etc etc... allegedly, of course.
|
I guess the chances of him seeing Micky Mouse in person for the next few years are slim !
The UK has a similar arrangement with the US as regards extradition as we do with Sweden and South Africa (as it happens) where the CJ systems are trusted and we would extradite without a prime facie case having to be made out... so it seems all very convulated for the US to get a third party country to get him. After all the US have one of their own already banged up for leaking this stuff....mind you he may have Max Clifford as a publicist !
The Americans may be secretly pleased with some of these leaks, especially the bits about Iran. Diplomacy is a very clever game. How we all laughed at Prince Andrew - totally undermined now so that's good news for US business....
|
...Diplomacy is a very clever game...
Everyone's in this for what they can get out of it.
I thought about that when Jemima Khan popped up on my telly.
Presumably she's on board because the current Pakistani government got some stick over its control of nuclear material.
Ms Khan's presence has nothing to do with any high-minded notion of a free and open society.
|
>> Presumably she's on board because the current Pakistani government got some stick over its control
>> of nuclear material.
The only connection that I know of that Jemima Khan has with Pakistan is that her ex-husband lives there.
|
>> I believe the allegations leading to the arrest were made in August
>>
See the dates I posted above; date of Afghanistan leaks and date when rape allegation reported.
Dates I had left out:
During his stay in Sweden Assange planned to give lectures. A group within the Swedish Social Democratic Party, The Brotherhood Movement, hosted the lecture titled, “The first victim of War is Truth.” Miss A was the organiser of this meeting, and Assange stayed in Misss A's flat in central Stockholm.
Misss A. She is no dumb blond bimbo. She is an astute, highly intelligent (up there around genius) intellectual. A political scientist by profession, specialising in women’s rights, and active in politics.
Between the the 13th and the 15th August, Assange is alleged to have had sex a number of times with Miss A.
On the night of the 16th August, Assange is alleged to have had sex twice during a one night stand with a Miss W, whom he met the previous Saturday.
On the Thursday, the the 19th August, Miss W contacts Miss A and tells her she has had sex with Assange.
On Saturday 21st August, the allegations of rape first surface in the news.
|
...A political scientist by profession, specialising in women’s rights, and active in politics...
What a tiresome sounding woman.
|
>> ...A political scientist by profession, specialising in women’s rights, and active in politics...
>>
>> What a tiresome sounding woman.
>>
I think that's par for the course where groupies who pursue Assange are concerned. His supporters Blogs claim that he has a large following of such women and that he has an insatiable appetite for them.
|
If Wikileaks had confined itself to exposing people on the take (cf. the expenses scandal) then I would have a different opinion of it.
It is naive though in the extreme to think it's a good idea to make public the private discussions of those involved in foreign policy (unless it's part of the plan of course, which does happen). Anybody who needs an explanation of that should just think about it a bit more.
|
>> If Wikileaks had confined itself to exposing people on the take (cf. the expenses scandal)
>> then I would have a different opinion of it.
>>
>> It is naive though in the extreme to think it's a good idea to make
>> public the private discussions of those involved in foreign policy (unless it's part of the
>> plan of course, which does happen). Anybody who needs an explanation of that should just
>> think about it a bit more.
I agree.
I probably support the release of the helicopter video, even though the end result is probably negative (i.e. that it will be used to recruit more extremists, who will carry out more attacks, which will eventually lead to more armed conflict and more innocents killed).
However, the apparently indiscriminate release of confidential diplomatic communications is simply unjustifiable. If they leaked a specific release that had definite merit in being in the public domain, then again fine, but that is not what is happening here.
Why, for example, is it in the public interest to leak a list of sites that the US considers of strategic importance?
Because of this I am less inclined to believe that the people behind Wikileaks are fearless campaigners for the truth, and more inclined to believe that they just enjoy causing trouble and the notority that comes with it.
|
|
Interesting article - reporting style apart - I rather approve of the UPS - may buy a couple of those for next winter !
|
How many years of this sort of stuff will it take people to realise that phones, emails, computers, cables, etc are not secure?
One is driven to the conclusion that any organisation that suffers a leak has contrived it deliberately.
|
>> One is driven to the conclusion that any organisation that suffers a leak has contrived
>> it deliberately.
Well, that is one of the conspiracy theories that has been raised (although you would think that they would have fabricated more juicy stuff).
The other, of course, is that these charges against Assange are trumped up just to get Wikileaks stopped.
It's a shame that those two theories don't support each other.
I suppose the next logical step is that it is a deliberate release, and this Assange arrest is just a smokescreen to pretend that the NWO is unhappy with the release.
You can have hours a fun with these conspiracy theories, can't you? :)
|
I still don't understand what is meant by "leaked cables". How cables are different from documents??
Is cable signifies telegram here?
|
>> I still don't understand what is meant by "leaked cables". How cables are different from
>> documents??
>>
>> Is cable signifies telegram here?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_cable
|
|
It's an Americanism I suppose and sounds more important than an e-mail or letter....
|
>> If Wikileaks had confined itself to exposing people on the take (cf. the expenses scandal)
>> then I would have a different opinion of it.
>>
>> It is naive though in the extreme to think it's a good idea to make
>> public the private discussions of those involved in foreign policy (unless it's part of the
>> plan of course, which does happen). Anybody who needs an explanation of that should just
>> think about it a bit more.
I agree.
|
Just watched an excellent ITV documentary John Pilger's "The War You Don't See" certainly a worthwhile watch includes an interview with Julian - slightly changed my view of the world.
Includes a discussion on the infamous AH64 attack on the civilians and journos.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 16:58
|
|
I didn't look - fortunately it was saved on my underused BT Vision box...
|
< sarcastic Rick voice on >
"Oh i saw this reeeeeeealy good programme on TV excellllllllleeeeeeeent"
"but you cant see it tho"
< sarcastic voice off >
< raspberry > Ppppppppppppppfffffffffftttttttttttttttttt
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 19:30
|
|
Sorry Zero - try searching the SKy+ system or on iTV Player :-0
|
No wonder your an ex solicitor, you are supposed to be able to cite case law.
"Oh its somewhere in some legal book somewhere" dont cut it as a defence!
|
Good job you have a decent clerk, is all i can say!
www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=198443
|
|
Thanks, have Christmas Day off Bob Cratchit.....:=)
|
John Pilger is serious and apparently well-meaning.
But he looks and sounds so sanctimonious and so lugubrious that I really can't bear to listen to him. It must be my Auberon Waugh side (the late Waugh was always sniping at Pilger).
It's a pity because he's quite good sometimes. But there it is. I am just irredeemably frivolous and reactionary, or so my nearest and dearest sometimes dare to hint.
|
|
Did anyone else hear John Humphrys interview with Julian Assange on Radio 4 this morning, and did anyone else think Mr. Assange came across as somewhat creepy?
|
and he looks creepy. Now he is issuing all sorts of threats.
He needs max clifford.
|
|
I do. The interview with Pilger is the best/I've heard seen. What time was it on Today so I can Listen Again ?
|
|
thank the lord. your clerk can have a day off today then.
|
|
Good interview - I can see him alienating some of his female supporters - smug, arrogant, self centred but I guess we knew that.
|
>> >> P.s. if anyone felt the urge to join the digital protest / picket line,
>> it's
>> >> very easy to join in even for non technical users. Google "low orbit ion
>> cannon".
>> >> Not my cup of tea, but i wouldn't stop anyone.
>>
>> Good idea, as long as you don't mind risking prison for a few years
>>
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ddos#Denial-of-service_attacks_and_the_law
>>
>> ...and spending those years trying to deny service to your cellmate.
>>
>> At least it would be in a good cause, supporting those good folks who must
>> urgently release lists of strategically important sites to the world.
As I said
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12299137
|
|
Yup. Don't forget to conceal your IP address. These people were using a fairly simple implement which didn't do that.
|
>> Yup. Don't forget to conceal your IP address. These people were using a fairly simple
>> implement which didn't do that.
Difficult to do, especially for a DDOS attack. Using things such as Tor would never provide the bandwidth to knock a website offline.
|
Wikileaks - paulb
