Hello All,
I am seriously thinking about investing in some hifi, the sources to be CD plus DAB tuner, I have a very good early 90's system currently based around a Yamaha amp, two Technics CD players (I guess would like to stick with two CD players if pos) and Mordaunt Short speakers.
I am thinking about either a full sized separates system based around the much lauded Yamaha AS500 amp or a mini system such as the Teac Reference 385, 500, 600 or Yamaha MCR-640.
Budget no so important as value and a system that both sounds and looks good and will be a pleasure to use.
Any thoughts or recomendations?
Thanks.
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Full seperates will always sound better due to the simple physics, the mini Denon/Teac systems are fine as an entry into HIFI or a second system but will be no match for a decent 90's system.
That Yamaha amp does have a good reputation but I would go to a good HIFI shop and listen to a few amps first.
As for CD players they are kind of out of fashion now so there should be some good bargains about but if yours are ok then keep them.
I wouldn't bother getting a decent DAB because the bit rates are so poor it is kind of pointless.
I would be tempted to buy a decent DAC as a good upgrade to your CD player. What model Technics are they? Some of them had a sort of soft sound so it is important not to match them with a soft sounding amp or it could become a bit lifeless.
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Nip round to RicherSounds - lots of bang for every ££ spent - and most branches (in my experience) have staff that know their right hand from their left - CT your Saturday boy @ Gomet & Gurrys
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>> Nip round to RicherSounds - >>
The Bristol branch will be receiving a visit soon, well next year maybe ...
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Thanks Rattle.
>> Full seperates will always sound better due to the simple physics, the mini Denon/Teac systems are fine as an entry into HIFI or a second system but will be no match for a decent 90's system.>>
... at the same price point, yes. Though systems such as the Teac Reference 600 with well matched speakers should compare well with a decent separates system - albeit the Teac costing a little more for aesthetics and convenience.
>> As for CD players they are kind of out of fashion now >>
Really, I always want the CD to have my own original copy even if I RIP it later.
>> I wouldn't bother getting a decent DAB because the bit rates are so poor it
>> is kind of pointless.
FM reception is poor here though DAB is OK.
>> I would be tempted to buy a decent DAC as a good upgrade to your
>> CD player. What model Technics are they? >>
One of them, SLP477A, has an optical out. They were very well rated in the early 90's with the Philips based transport etc.
I might replace the amp only in the short term though the objective is to improve the aesthetics as well.
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>> Full seperates will always sound better due to the simple physics
Crap. There is no physical reason why seperates should sound better. In fact all the interconnects are a physical impediment that needs to be overcome and mitigated against.
Hifi separates are a long standing and successful ruse to force Hifi enthusiast to pay more for the gear.
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Zero said:
>> Crap. There is no physical reason why seperates should sound better. In fact all the
>> interconnects are a physical impediment that needs to be overcome and mitigated against.
>>
>> Hifi separates are a long standing and successful ruse to force Hifi enthusiast to pay
>> more for the gear.
I asked a colleague who made his own high end hifi amplifier, and he reckons that in general separates are better, one reason being better shielding and separate power supplies, transformers etc. One advantage of separates is the ability to upgrade a component if it blows, or gets outdated. I have an old Teac Reference 300 and it knocks the spots off a cheap beat box, although you have to be careful to mount the speakers properly e.g. on speaker stands. But then I guess the OP knows about mounting speakers. :)
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>> in general separates are better, one reason being better shielding and separate power supplies, transformers etc. >>
Though high end minis are produced to the same standards ...
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Have you thought of an Arcam Solo / Naim Uniti or similar? I'd keep my digital options open.
John
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I have a Teac Reference system - takes a lot less space than the 90s mix it replaced. I keep meaning to upgrade the speakers -it originally drove a pair of Mission floor standing speakers to great effect - those have now gone and it's back on the standard Teac ones - may upgrade one day !
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Cheddar in a true hi-fi forum way you will have to give us the model numbers of all your gear as otherwise it's impossible to assess what your starting point is before thinking of an upgrade. Also you say budget not important... but £500 or £5000 makes a big difference.
Something like the Yamaha midi system may well be a reduction in quality over the system you have now.... if you're considering this type of thing is it that you want a music system and not really hi-fi?
I see the Yamaha amp you mention is a What HiFi 2010 awards winner. In truth they (and similar magazines) are very quick to get into hyping gear that in many cases is no better than stuff from 20yrs ago.
If you are serious about wanting to go the hi-fi route changing more than one component at a time can blur the issues. For example last time I changed our amplifier I home auditioned several at home (borrowed from the dealer) and found all bar one were worse than our old one... the one we chose was head and shoulders above. We also did the same with speakers and must have taken 5 pairs home (often two pairs at a time) before finding some that suited.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 31 Dec 10 at 09:46
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>> Also you say budget not important... but £500 or £5000 makes a big difference.
>>
Up to £1500, maybe £2000.
>> Something like the Yamaha midi system may well be a reduction in quality over the
>> system you have now.... >>
Some of what used to be called midi systems now offer top componentry, that Yamaha has had mixed reviews though some really rate it with well matched speakers.
>> I see the Yamaha amp you mention is a What HiFi 2010 awards winner. In
>> truth they (and similar magazines) are very quick to get into hyping gear that in
>> many cases is no better than stuff from 20yrs ago.
>>
Also I find it hard to trust them when they can seriously say that it is worth spending £100 on a HDMI cable, an HDMI cable is an HDMI cable and as long as it meets HDMI spec (v1.3 etc) it will work as well as the next one.
>> If you are serious about wanting to go the hi-fi route changing more than one
>> component at a time can blur the issues. >>
Hence I might just change the amp initially plus invest in a DAB tuner.
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As RattleAndSmoke says, DAB broadcasts are appallingly bad quality, even Radio 3. I have a Pure pocket DAB radio which I put through a stereo on the auxiliary input. I doubt a proper DAB box would be much better, and I have the added advantages of a pocket radio. The Pure one box hi-fi is said to be very good. You can always look at reviews in magazines like What HiFi but I came to the conclusion that there is too much subjective opinion, given that I have owned quite a few of the headphones reviewed, and disagree with the reviews. Places like Richer Sounds allow you to go in an listen to a couple of systems. They have proper listening rooms.
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Leif is right... at the moment DAB is not a serious hi-fi source. For that reason I have removed the tuner from our hi-fi and just listen to radio as a disposable medium on a DAB portable.
FB mentioned Richer Sounds.... if you absolutely know what you're doing.... or don't care at all what you get they're an option. Bear in mind though the tie up between the shop and brands sold. Of the 35 amps they list 23 are from a company owned or co-owned by the same guy as the shops.
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I would take care in Richer Sounds as well. They will sell you what they need to get shot of rather than what you want, and they are rather inaccurate with descriptions, by design in a clever way.
For example they sell a TV described.
"Full 1080p HD Digital, Freeview"
Is it full HD on freeview? No.
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I think DAB in the home is a requirement, but mostly due to the quantity of content, not the quality.
The bit rates on some radio stations on freeview and freesat are higher than DAB. Radio on that medium is a sadly overlooked source by many.
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Cheddar I wonder if you will be able to home audition that Yamaha AS500 amp... or at the very least take in your old one and do a comparison in the shop. There is a possibility there isn't a significant/worthwhile jump in quality from what you have now.
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What I meant was in all in ones is that space is a major issue, there isn't room to put in all the massive heatsinks, transformers and capacitors so sound per £££ they are always worse.
None of my amps for example are empty inside.
A portable DAB is a good idea and it is the route I wish I had gone. As for FM reception I would invest in a decent roof areal and a good old fashioned FM tuner. You can get some second hand very high quality FM tuners for less than £50 because like CD Fm is going out of fashion.
One thing I have noticed is that HIFI seperates are also going out on fashion in the lower end. I noticed Sony don't even seem to make budget seperates any more. That said HIFI itself is now not in fashion. People are now just tone deaf and seem to want to listen to their music on £10 computer speakers.
If I move out to a small flat and no longer have room for the seperates then the very least I would need is one of those Denon/Teac type systems.
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i got myself a roksan kandy and roksan cd player l3 two years ago, the sound quality knocks the spots out of any mini midi systems.
Separate amps and cd players are the bees knees, the manufacturer spends more on the componets in the amp and cd players, like toroidal transformers, copper shielding, cerafin capacitors, all in the aid of improving sound quality.
My roksan combo can be upgraded, check the hifi reviews on it, you dont say cheddar why you not happy with your current system, sometimes placing speakers differently, changing interconnects, speaker wires all make a difference
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>>>changing interconnects, speaker wires all make a difference<<<<<
but I bet the best improvement is to have you ears syringed!
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...(I guess would like to stick with two CD players if pos)...
A dedicated hi-fi hard drive could be the way forward:
www.brennan.co.uk/?gclid=COmH-JXUlqYCFQ4f4QodFxtlZA
I think that box is expensive, but the likes of Richer Sounds have cheaper ones.
Another retailer to consider is Superfi: www.superfi.co.uk/
Similar to Richer Sounds, but arguably a little more up market.
There aren't many independents left, but if you have one in striking distance, it could be well worth the journey.
DAB quality is not fantastic, but I have a DAB separates deck which does a better job than any portable.
Mine is made by Cambridge Audio - effectively a Richer Sounds own brand.
This Teac looks OK: www.richersounds.com/product/tuners/teac/tr650dab/teac-tr650dab
As Rattolo says, a roof aerial is well worth the money.
I'm also convinced it's worth paying a pound or two a metre for speaker cable, but no more, and maybe a tenner or so for phono leads.
Set-up and positioning make a big difference - few people can build their room around their hi-fi, but try to keep speaker runs short - a metre or two at most.
This also puts the cost of speaker cable into perspective. It might be £2 a metre but you only need eight quids' worth.
Last edited by: Iffy on Fri 31 Dec 10 at 14:20
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Some interconnects have tonal slightly different tonal qualities so it is worth listening to a few to fine tune the sound.
The TEAC tuner looks good as it has FM too so you have best of both words, but the same of £100 I would get an FM anthena. It is something I have been meaning to do but as it is not my house never bothered.
Another place worth considering is Audio T and Seaven Oaks.
Was just in PCWORLD just now which is now more like Currys, they had quite a few 'HIFI' systems some of them costing up to £200. I had a play to my ears they all sounded awfully lifeless.
At least those Denon/Teac type all in ones have are true HIFI they just lack a bit of clout.
My stop gap Marantz PM4000 has a similar sound, very rounded off won't hurt fly and you could never say it sounded bad, it just lacks grunt. The drum beat on Blue Monday for example sounds slower than it is because there is not enough power to drive those drivers.
That is why high wattage amps can be important, it is nothing to do with loudness but all about how well it can grip the speakers.
Again also make sure you toe in the speakers etc. I have a mate who has a B&W 602 speakers, A mid range Denon amp and CD player but it sounds awful because it is not setup properly. With proper stands and positioning it would sound 20 times better.
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I'd hang on to the speakers if you like them.
I once bought a pair of delightful Kef Calindas from a guy who had 'upgraded' to something made by Linn, together with a new amp. After the deal was done he invited me to listen to the Linns. After ten minutes I made an excuse, got the Kefs in the car ASAP, gave him another 50 quid for the mint NAD tuner/amp that had been driving them and beat it quick.
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>> I think DAB in the home is a requirement, but mostly due to the quantity
>> of content, not the quality.
>>
>> The bit rates on some radio stations on freeview and freesat are higher than DAB.
>> Radio on that medium is a sadly overlooked source by many.
>>
Yep, I can't get 6Music or Planet Rock on FM so DAB it is (or internet where convenient).Agree about Freeview/sat audio, but not very convenient in a music system unless unless you've got a TV in there as well for GUI.
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My Freeview box is connected to my HIFI amp but it lacks Rock FM my favourite station plus it is all compressed anyway so I only listen to it on the crappy car radio.
As for listening to others peoples HIFI system it can be tedius if you don't like the music!
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I used to have a system consisting of separate components dating from a time when I had more money than sense. About 5 years ago I replaced them with a Denon unit which at the time was pretty much the only thing available with an iPod connector.
I've not bought a CD since about 2003 having ripped my entire collection onto an old PC running a Twonky uPnP server connected by WLAN via a Noxon MP3 streamer to the hifi. Only bought MP3s since then, CDs to me are clutter, I'm only interested in the content. Plugging the iPod into the Denon turned out to be a more stable and usable solution than the WLAN system and the sound quality is excellent. It only has 2 speakers but also does a fairly good 5.1 simulation.
The Denon will play any disk known to man but we only use it for DVDs. I think the days of needing a disk for videos are numbered so my next purchase will probably completely disk free.
The best thing about the separates is that they fetched far more than I expected in eBay. I don't buy all this hifi fetishism about separate components. As Z says, electronically it makes more sense to integrate as much as possible and reduce the external interfaces to an absolute minimum.
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Indeed but the problem is most mini systems are physicaly too small to house the transformers, capacitors and massive heatsink you would require for a powerful amp.
The idea solution would be one great big massive box with the sources connected to the amp circuit with a very small signal path but there would be no market for such a thing.
The problem is on the all in ones the same power circuit has to power the amp and source. On the lower end of the market that isn't a problem and the Denon units are very good for what they are.
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i sold hifi for a living when manufacturers really went to town on quality but at a price this was 1975/97
the overiding factor for amps was always buy above your station so you never ran it into clipping,this is doubly important if you are into classical music rather than run of the mill rubbish music
record decks needed heavy platters and needed nailing to the supporting wall
cd's hadnt been invented and as ive found out since were a retrograde advancement anyway
speakers need to be efficient for your system but only the ears of the man buying them can ascertain if they are suitable,ive never moved on from my range of celestion speakers but really fancy a pair of old leak 2060's even though i remember them as crashy
leads just make sure good contacts at both ends for anything other than speaker cable
speaker cable good ole 5 amp lighting wire is emminently suitable and available quite cheaply from a wicks near you
as i say i know nowt about hi fi just used to take something different home every night if i could and remember to return it next day in case the directers of the company took an uffy
ps i was in richer sounds leeds last week ,loved the new shop but was very underwhelmed by their choice and i would take on zero's comments most carefully
personally i prefer super fi shops as they can be a bit snotty if you go in in your working attire and your hob nailed boots mark their carpet but once you show you are wonga rich they do take to you
ps if you dont like the speakers start there but make sure your amp is compatable first
good luck you will need it
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Richersounds is more of a run of a mill AV shop now. Very good for TVs but as you say poor for HIFI. Superfi is a lot better for HIFI but still box shifters.
For the OPs budget I think the suggestion of finding a good local supportive supplier is the best bet.
Currently listening to my music via my Marantz and it is so lifeless. I am going to save up for the AudioLab power amp at £300 from Superfi and also get the Camrbidge fixed and flog it for about £150.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Fri 31 Dec 10 at 18:19
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>> >> I think DAB in the home is a requirement, but mostly due to the
>> quantity
>> >> of content, not the quality.
>> Yep, I can't get 6Music or Planet Rock on FM so DAB it is (or
>> internet where convenient).Agree about Freeview/sat audio, but not very convenient in a music system unless
>> unless you've got a TV in there as well for GUI.
Same situation with me. I bought a Denon DAB/FM tuner a few years ago, because my FM tuner was playing up. The sound quality on DAB isn't a patch on FM, but I can get 6Music and Amazing Radio (thanks Iffy for the recommendation).
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...and Amazing Radio (thanks Iffy for the recommendation)...
I expect you've doubled their listenership. :)
Glad you're enjoying the station and let's hope it lasts.
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Cheddar,
Glad you brought this topic up. In my previous house I had a great sounding set of separates, which I have yet to set up in my new place. Over the years, I have added Sound Organisation spiked stands, for both speakers & units, an LP12 deck, Denon Tuner, Arcam CD player, Dynaudio speakers, and Naim Nac/Nap & Snaps power supply.
If I don't set it up within 4 months I shall Ebay the lot.
I found that previously I was spending several entire evenings each week lost in music.
Not a bad way of idling away the hours I suppose.
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I am leaning towards the Yamaha amp and have decided that I want a Yamaha DAB tuner that has just been discontinued and I can only find it in silver and not black - doh!
I think I would then set them up with my Technics CD players and Mordaunt Short speakers initially and see how it all sounds, a couple of new CD players would probably follow and I might stick with Yamaha for aesthtic reasons in the shape of the CD-S300.
To be honest one of the reasons for changing is aesthetics, to have a more contemporary looking as well as great sounding system.
Thanks all.
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After nearly investing in a lot of new kit I decided to play around a little. Having tried various amps over the years I always fell back on my 1989 Yamaha RX-300 receiver, very natural and detailed. Hence upon seeing a mint AX-300 amp of the same era advertised and knowing it was very well reviewed using high quality compontry, gold plated terminals etc, I snapped it up. This together with two 5* Cambridge Audio CD players, a 640C V2 and 340C (with Fisual interconnects) are really making my old Mordaunt Short MS35Tis sing! I have also bought some Atacama speaker stands though these dont do it for me so I have dug my old engineering brick plinths out of the garage. All sounding great though I may look at some floorstanders and I still want a DAB tuner.
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As said DAB is so poor the quality of a DAB tuner dosn't matter too much. Don't spent a lot on a DAB as you won't get the benefit.
FM is far better (and yes I know you don't get the same choice).
If you like your new Yamaha amp I would look into the costs of having it recapped it should help things to sing even further :).
I am still stuck with my 10 year old Marantz PM4000 as I just cannot justify spending money on HIFI repairs at the moment, my Cambridge 640A is still dead.
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What's this world coming to when we need someone hospitalised before they have time to update their own threads!
Sounds like you had most of what was needed all along. Apart from the AX-300.
I am guilty in saying most of my music is in digital format now and either listened to in the car or on an MP3 player. Sorry ;-)
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Actually the CD players are new, the 640C end of line and the 340C clearance, the 640C V2 was 5* at 350 quid a year ago and I paid 119, the 340C was 5* at 150 quid a year ago and I paid 40!
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More fun for you if you play Angry Birds tonight than posting on here ;-)
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Now you've the main electronics sorted I'd give a thought to some alternative speakers. They will give the biggest change in sound for a single component swap. I'd be looking at models that fetch £100-£150pr on Ebay to make a worthwhile upgrade to yours.
Floorstanders can give a very impressive sound per £ but unless you have large room and get them well away from the walls/corners they can be a bit bloaty.
Some of the very small expensive standmounts of the last 25yrs can sound amazing (ProAc, Dynaudio etc).
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The MS35Tis are a largish cabinet and I have not found a compact standmount / bookshelf speaker that offers such a rich yet controlled bass partcularly when sitting on nearly 20kg of engineering bricks.
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...when sitting on nearly 20kg of engineering bricks...
I've never heard floorstanders when mounted in this way, but I've always suspected floorboards are not quite solid enough.
Top-notch compacts are meant to be just that, and it would be interesting to try a pair, on stands, on Cheddar's bricks.
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They are not floorstanders, rather they are large standmounters on a stand made of engineering bricks. The theory is that as the speaker cone moves air it is truly only the air that moves and not the speaker thus giving a solid, controlled and well defined sound with particular advantages in the bass range.
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>>>I have not found a compact standmount / bookshelf speaker that offers such a rich yet controlled bass.
Speakers like yours do have the advantage of cabinet size (and front port reinforcement?) for a full bass which perhaps suits the music you play. I've moved on over the years to the slightly smaller but perhaps more punchy types, I did have to add a sub to the very smallest pair but they were most impressive as the impression given was that these tiny speakers were producing the most amazing bass.
I've had loads of pairs from Ebay over the last few years and had great fun comparing them at almost no *cost to change*.
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Hifi - thoughts and recomendations? - RattleandSmoke
