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Why shouldn't local library services be closed? What benefits do local libraries provide?
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I would have thought the benefits were self evident (education etc). But then I cannot remember when I last used ours.
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Libraries are "nice to haves" in any civilised society. The problem is, they are usually only used by those who don't need them, and not by those who have no other access to books.
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its the hub for where i live
and the wife gets at least 4 books a fortnight out and reads them
me i go in for a warm
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Locally, as well as book & media loan, there are a number of computer terminals for public use, kids activity classes (based around reading), access to publications, periodicals and journals which you may need to look at but don't want to subscribe to, a repository of local information. And of course there are reference books (useful when planning a holiday or when someone dies etc). I think ours also runs some adult classes (hobbies) but that could be done elsewhere.
I can afford books, and I don't read a lot, but voracious readers like my mrs and daughter use the library all the time...
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Our local libarary has turned into an internet cafe....
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...as well as or instead of?
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Libraries are vital for communities. Now my entire family was based around them, about 14 of us (including my cousins) would not be burn if it was not for the libraries.
In a modern society they are a vital source of free books so people can become educated for free and they also function as internet cafes so the poorer members of society always have internet access and can access information like the rest of us can.
The biggest reason they should not be closed though is I know personaly of far too many people who will loose their jobs.
I personaly don't use the library much but I do like to pop in every month or so but with a new project I am starting I suspect I will be using it a lot more often.
Some libraries will close, I think five of them are closing within Manchester city council but it is important that libraries as a whole remain open.
My late grandad was very well read, he must had read 10000's of books in his time, all from the library. There is no way he could afford to buy them all.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 8 Feb 11 at 15:46
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> The biggest reason they should not be closed though is I know personaly of far too many people who will loose their jobs.
Rattle, public services do not exist to provide people with jobs. I do not pay my taxes or council tax to provide work for people. Public services exist to meet the essential needs of the community.
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But I have mention before fiscal policy is far better paying people say £12k a year as a library assistant than having them on the dole. Most of that £12k will go back into the governments pockets anyway via taxes, it is this point the Cameron et al have missed.
If people loose their jobs, I loose mine it is simple as that.
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>> But I have mention before fiscal policy is far better paying people say £12k a
>> year as a library assistant than having them on the dole. Most of that £12k
>> will go back into the governments pockets anyway via taxes, it is this point the
>> Cameron et al have missed.
Its that kind of economics that got us into such debt. The reason that people are being made redundant in the public services now, is because the job was artificial in the first place.
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I think the problem was over management however I am pretty sure that low wage jobs are more beneficial than being on the dole. The higher the pay the higher the cost to the tax payer though.
While I am not happy with a load of managers working for the council managing mangers this has been stopped and I am sure by reducing this wastage we don't need to cut so many front line services.
In Manchester for example over night street cleaning has been axed, I would dread to think of the smell of the city centre on a Monday morning without that.
I can see the return of Ghost Town by the Specials.
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Most of that £12k will go back into the governments pockets anyway via taxes, it is this point the Cameron et al have missed.
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So if we pay everybody without a productive or necessary job 12k a year for doing a non-job we will increase government revenue?
Pity you didn't go to a school where they taught proper maths.
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Well don't pay that person and that person will just claim £12k of the state in housing benefits and dole money anyway! That is my point. It is not as if there is enough private sector jobs to replace the lost public sector jobs.
When your city centre is a ghost town, your house is burnt down due to riots and all your family have lost their jobs don't say I didn't see it coming.
I just feel very strongly about this.
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Rattle, the cost of employing someone is not just wages.
It costs near on another 12k to employ someone earning 12k. Thats 24k.
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And I am sure half that can be reduced by reducing red tape.
I am just convinced there are much better solutions to all this, for a start asking people to work a 3 day week if it meant saving jobs.
Just don't start moaning when 6 million people are on the dole because that is what will happen.
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>> And I am sure half that can be reduced by reducing red tape.
Exactly. That means sacking people who administer the red tape.
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>> I am just convinced there are much better solutions to all this, for a start
>> asking people to work a 3 day week if it meant saving jobs.
NO thats worse. Two people doing one job? Thats twice the admin cost.
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No I mean you cut services like opening hours and such like so you reduce peoples hours. It will hurt pockets a lot but it will hurt a hell of a lot less than loosing her job entirely.
My sister is on £30k a year in a public sector job and is worried and would much rather take a pay cut and work less hours than loose her job.
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>> My late grandad was very well read, he must had read 10000's of books in
>> his time, all from the library. There is no way he could afford to buy
>> them all.
Why is reading so different from foreign holidays or fast cars that READING should be the only one subsidised by the state?
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I use mine occasionally, but as an indulgence rather than a necessity. All the people I see in there look prosperous enough to buy their own books, those who would benefit from a little self-disciplined education don't go near them.
I am surprised free libraries have lasted as long as they have, a £25 per annum membership fee would go a long way towards funding, be good value for money and show whether there really is a demand for them.
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"those who would benefit from a little self-disciplined education don't go near them"
They do. They use them as a place to pee or shoot up.
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Because it is education, libraries are actually quiet cheap to run. My dad used to be one of the people that ran the libraries so I knew quite a lot about it but no doubt things have changed too.
Andrew Carnegie will be turning in his grave at all this. My local library for example which he paid for acts as a main hub of all community life. Council meetings etc are all done there. Thankfully my local library is not under threat.
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My local library has also broadened its appeal and does more than lend books.
Quite a few community groups meet there, and there are displays by locals schools and artists.
Also free internet access, which can be quite handy if you are out and about and want to fire off a quick email or check the hotmail inbox.
I'm in now and again, and there's always a few others there.
Reading the morning papers/monthly magazines seems a popular pastime.
Must be handy if you've not got spare money to buy these publications.
It would be a shame if libraries shut, and I don't suppose much would be saved in the grand scheme of things.
Also, what would you do with the buildings?
I expect most would stand empty because of the poor economic climate.
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Wht about mobile libraries?
They are being axed too and are a refreshing lifeline to a lot of housebound, disabled people as well as the elderly.
Pat
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I think mobile libraries have a higher running cost per borrower and are popular with a local few. The big big problem is like that local bus services look likely to be cut too. So if you cut the local libraries and mobie libraries and cut subsidies for buses in more remote areas which low demand people who cannot drive will be cut off from any library service at all.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 8 Feb 11 at 16:23
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>> Wht about mobile libraries?
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>> They are being axed too and are a refreshing lifeline to a lot of housebound,
>> disabled people as well as the elderly.
You have a choice. Cut the meals on wheels/home help or the mobile library?
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...You have a choice. Cut the meals on wheels/home help or the mobile library?...
Or sack a few blue suits in the town hall and keep both.
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There is another choice, cut the benefits of those who shouldn't be entitled to them. Deport any foreign lawbreaker, and give community service jobs to mild offenders staffing the Mobile Library.
Pat
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>> Also free internet access,
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All libraries near me have their internet stations nearly always booked up, but not by locals - mainly the East Europeans and ex-USSR migrants who are making use of them.
As for books and magazines, it is the middle-class educated retired elderly folk or the middle-class children who use them.
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Libraries must stay!
It is probably the only thing I can get some return for my council tax!
Theare are loads of other useless things councils can get rid of like offering driving test in 20 languages, spending too much money on ethnic community integraton projects, intrepreter for asylum seekers etc. etc.
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>> Theare are loads of other useless things councils can get rid of like offering driving
>> test in 20 languages,
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1/ Councils do not run driving tests.
2/ The only language a test is conducted in is English. If a candidate can't understand the language he or she must provide an interpretor at their own expense.
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...mainly the East Europeans and ex-USSR migrants who are making use of them...As for books and magazines, it is the middle-class educated retired elderly folk or the middle-class children who use them....
What fun your local library sounds like.
A veritable polyglot patchwork.
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I think this thread has become the Daily Mail.
As long as the migrants are working (probably doing jobs nobody else wants to do) and paying tax etc then we should support them.
The balance does need to be addressed though and we porbably do have too many foreign workers in this country but the biggest problem is the ilegal imigrants draining resources.
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>> I think this thread has become the Daily Mail.
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>> As long as the migrants are working (probably doing jobs nobody else wants to do)
>> and paying tax etc then we should support them.
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>> The balance does need to be addressed though and we porbably do have too many
>> foreign workers in this country but the biggest problem is the ilegal imigrants draining resources.
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So lets get rid of some public sector workers then and they could take up the slack with these jobs that have been below them before.
I really wonder where we would be if the Labour Govt. were still in power, I mean how long did they think we could just keep spending borrowed money....
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>> ...mainly the East Europeans and ex-USSR migrants
>> A veritable polyglot patchwork.
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Yes. They work as plumbers, gardeners, au-pairs, cleaners, "housemaids", etc. serving the double-income middle-class families.
They also work as Aldi and Lidl workers, courier van drivers; - you name any unskilled labouring job, and they will happily do it.
They attend the local colleges to improve their English and to gain trade skill certificates.
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i tried to borrow the computer in my library about 3/4 years ago and was told there was a long waiting list yet all the desks were empty
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they were after you borrowed all the computers....
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>> they were after you borrowed all the computers....
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yes i meant to say stab the keyboards with my fingers as i couldnt tipe back then for chocolate
;-)
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Norwich library is located in a modern building called the Forum and is often held up as a model of what a modern library should be. It has a huge range of books and magazines, dozens of computers and is used by a cross section of the population from children to students to pensioners.
It also has a fantastic audio library and also houses the USAAF memorial library. It is always busy. The building also houses a restaurant, cafe, gift shop, the, local radio station and an exhibition area.
Libraries have to move forward. The old dry as dust image will not attract new users.
Mind you we were lucky in Norwich, the old 1960's library burned down some years back despite being 200 yards from then main fire station! I remember taking some books back that I had on loan which I had effectively saved from destruction and being asked to pay a fine for late return!
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Our local library is well used and is not subject to closure. SWMBO gets 6 or 7 books out each time and I am a member as well. It played a major part in my learning to read and form interests in all sorts of things. We couldn't afford books.
The building...( nice, isn't it?..and listed. )
tinyurl.com/5ssamrg
....is next to a large Edwardian primary school to the right, which includes Rattle and myself in it's former luminaries ( not at the same time ) My mother used to collect me at 4pm and we went straight into the library to look at the books in the childrens section.
I read voraciously, no telly, just a wireless. It was of massive importance to me, maybe less so to today's kids, although when I go in, there are always groups of children at the tables working on projects.
It's not just the libraries though, two swimming pools are to close...but where ? Of course, it's two in the poorer areas, Miles Platting and Levenshulme. Not our's here in a wealthier area ! Care homes, drop in centres, all sorts of useful services are to be axed.
Oh, and guess what ?....They've just started work this week to put in new pavements in our road and the next one to replace ones, 86 yrs old and, scruffy admittedly, which are still ok for the purpose......tens of Ks there !
Ted
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Always the way. I am worried about them stopping street cleaning. The entire city centre would stink of urine on a Monday morning :(.
The problem is leasure facilities including libraries tend to be used more in better areas, so it is always the poorer areas which suffer more. I think it is a mistake to close Levenshulme Baths.
The wealthy areas get the richer and the poorer areas get poorer.
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NOt surprised, would you spend money on areas where they pee in the streets?
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Rattle - you should try living down here then. In this area the more afluent areas get very little as they know the locals will stump up for it themselves, but the rough council estates get state of the art kids play areas which then need to be manned by security staff to stop them being destroyed by the same people that the equipment was installed for.....
On a positive side my local council have not really said much about cuts, and so far there has not really been any evidence of any. Some of the local Councilors have themselves voted for a 10% cut in their allowances - they felt that if the people they represented were suffering from cutbacks then they should also feel the pain.
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>> On a positive side my local council have not really said much about cuts, and
>> so far there has not really been any evidence of any.
Most of the councils slashing services and jobs are labour run councils, that had much larger grants than other better run councils.
The magnificent expensive tram system in Manchester? Hope it was worth it, its now being paid for by peoples jobs.
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>> >> On a positive side my local council have not really said much about cuts,
>> and
>> >> so far there has not really been any evidence of any.
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>> Most of the councils slashing services and jobs are labour run councils, that had much
>> larger grants than other better run councils.
Ahh that fits then - Tory Council and local MP is in the Cabinet
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I think the council is a bit careful where it spends money, it knows the state of the art playground in certain areas will be robbed by the scrap scum.
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>> would you spend money on areas where they pee in the streets?
I didn't think there were any areas where they don't, Zero. Needs must when the devil drives, innit?
It isn't restricted to men either. In my bohemian youth I used to drink in Fulham and Chelsea with, among other people, a hard-drinking ballet dancer. She was small enough to vanish under parked lorries for a tinkle. Of course they weren't as low-slung then as they are now.
I see that the Sheikh is inclined to be old-maidish about this as about some other things. Like the Daily Telegraph office boy, now the religious correspondent, who wrote a piece reeking with veiled
racism about Notting Hill carnival. He said that in 'his part' of the Gate - close to Kensington High Street I shouldn't wonder - no one liked carnival partly because of the frightful clamour and partly because of people taking a slash in their front gardens. Little carphound.
The Sheikh seems a nice fellow so I wouldn't wish it on him, but a spell in the army, the nick or one of our better public schools would work wonders with his attitudes.
:o}
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One Manchester library to close will be Barlow Moor (Chorlton)... hands up those living nearby who knew it existed?
Libraries in Manchester will no longer be open on Sundays or Fridays for that matter. A no brainer closing them on Sundays I guess but that means changes to staff hours and jobs will go.
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I think staff will just get fewer hours, don't think any will loose their jobs but some natural wastage might happen.
Miles Platting and Clayton are also closingt them and Barlow Moor are nothing more than huts in council estates with low borrowsship but it these few people in these areas which use which will be hurt by the closures.
I know in Barlow Moor for example there is a lot of elderly people with health problems living there and they cannot get into the main Chorlton centre without help.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 8 Feb 11 at 21:50
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Library closures. - Bromptonaut
