There has been some slightly bad-tempered discussion in another thread on the question of people's class origins.
I have a fairly strong conviction that you don't have to go very far back in history to find 'working class' individuals in most people's ancestry. And if you do go back a very long way - say 1,000 years - you will find slaves, bandits and aristocrats in everyone's bloodline.
Had an argument once with a Nigerian who was disparaging West Indians as the descendants of slaves. When I made the point that we are certainly all descended from slaves somewhere along the line, he just looked very puzzled. Some people don't understand history in all its depth and messiness.
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There three classes of people
The Antisocial classes. I dont need to describe them
The working classes. Anyone who has to work to earn money to keep them in whatever chosen lifestyle they have
The don't need to work classes. The Old money.
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>> The don't need to work classes. The Old money.
>>
you forgot those retired on "fat" pensions? ;-)
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>> three classes of people
Personal definitions though Zeddo.
It is certainly true that those who have to work to earn a living are working class, in a sense. But many who have white-collar or management skills identify closely with the capitalist bourgeoisie although that may not be in their own best interests.
'Running dogs of the ruling class'. There are quite a few here in the pub.
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>> Personal definitions though Zeddo.
>>
>> It is certainly true that those who have to work to earn a living are
>> working class, in a sense. But many who have white-collar or management skills identify closely
>> with the capitalist bourgeoisie although that may not be in their own best interests.
>>
>> 'Running dogs of the ruling class'. There are quite a few here in the pub.
Thats the point of my three tier class system. They may think they are lower middle, upper middle, or Upper class, but they are not. They all toil like sons of the earth, and if laid off are in distress. They don't really have any power or influence.
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>>They don't really have any power or influence.
>>
But can be sour and have flatulence.
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>> 'Running dogs of the ruling class'. There are quite a few here in the pub.
>>
rephrased "I am of working class stock, I have a chip on my shoulder about the ruling classes, but still consider that I am superior to all of them and their running dogs in the pub, but they are too stupid to know it and recognise that I am making a personal attack on them".
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>> they are too stupid to know it and recognise that I am making a personal attack on them".
All except you John, eh? But I'm not upset by your personal attack on me. It's too wide of the mark to hurt.
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>> There has been some slightly bad-tempered discussion in another thread on the question of people's
>> class origins.
>>
So why do you think some people are so keen to play the poor downtrodden "working class" card?
As you say "you don't have to go very far back in history to find 'working class' individuals in most people's ancestry.
It is pointless to bring class in to most discussions, unless of course it is titled like this one.
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I am working class, anyone who isn't is a lazy freeloader. And I worked for my pension.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 15:11
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The point you're missing is that working class don't see themselves as poor or downtrodden. It's what others perceive of them.
Just as the rich don't see themselves as haughty and pompous.
We all have a view of ourselves, what we portray to others is more in the eye of the viewer.
Pat
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Ah but Pat they do. They are always moaning about being downtrodden, being poor, moaning about management, rich bosses.
Its a state of mind. Proud of my working class roots, is a cobblers statement.
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>> The point you're missing is that working class don't see themselves as poor or downtrodden.
>> It's what others perceive of them.
>>
others like you, you mean, as you did here:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=5057&m=110983&v=e
"The only social responsibility I feel at the moment is to see that others of my working class roots don’t ever allow themselves to feel downtrodden or browbeaten into silence by people like you."
BTW - you made a judgement about Mapmaker and me: "people like you"; yet you don't know me at all.
Good afternoon for now, hope to be back tomorrow. ;-)
Last edited by: John H on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 15:28
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Lets not make this personal AGAIN.
You are perfectly intelligent and erudite enough to direct an argument without making it personal.
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In the not so distant past my ancestors were hung (in the Scottish borders) for cattle thieving.
Which class does that make me?
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>> In the not so distant past my ancestors were hung (in the Scottish borders) for
>> cattle thieving.
>>
>> Which class does that make me?
Australian. Your ticket and visa are in the post.
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As the population has become more affluent there has been a blurring of classes. I would think they are now -
1, Don't need to work.
2, Workers / Pensioners.
3. Benefit income families / Politicians.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 15:47
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I was chatting to my dad about this very subject not long ago. He is very much a working class man. His mother was a single mum in the 40's due to his rather feckless father. They were the lowest of the low without a man in the house.
My nan went out and worked, the 7 kids all worked, they looked after their mum and she looked after them.
Every single one of my dads siblings has done well, my dad and my aunt possibly the best. He said that the true working class actually go to work because when he was young, there wasnt an option and bettering yourself was an aspiration, so he worked his way up through companies in the 60's and 70's, then in early 80's started his own company which made him decently well off in retirement.
Nobody ever gave it to him, but he said quite often he has felt that other people from similar backgrounds look down on him for doing so well financially, which he said is a pathetic jelousy by the lazy in society who want it all but arent prepared to work for it.
He gets very irate at supposedly working class people who dont seem to have much inclination to work. He said those who have never worked have no right calling themselves anything with 'work' in the title.
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"He gets very irate at supposedly working class people who dont seem to have much inclination to work. He said those who have never worked have no right calling themselves anything with 'work' in the title. "
He was of course wrong. They are "workshy"...:-)
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I was wrong about my three classes.
There are the
1/ Dont care,
2/ The Aspirant
3/ The made it.
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>>he said quite often he has felt that other people from similar backgrounds look down on
>>him for doing so well financially, which he said is a pathetic jelousy by the lazy in society
>>who want it all but arent prepared to work for it.
I think you're spot on, Wilberforce. Nobody else cares what class anybody is.
Interesting to read en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class
Its usage can alternately be derogatory, or can express a sense of pride in those who self-identify as Working class.
There's no similar bit about middle/upper class.
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>>to feel downtrodden or browbeaten into silence by people like you<<
The detail is in the first two words John.
BTW, I'm working tomorrow so you'll have to argue with Mapmaker.
Pat
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"BTW - you made a judgement about Mapmaker and me: "people like you"; yet you don't know me at all."
I too have made a judgement about you John H, yet I don't know you. Nothing wrong with that, I suspect lots of people here have made a judgement about you.
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My grandfather on my father's side was a language teacher and so was my father, my mother's father was a vicar. I had a private education and was an officer in the Army for many years but I don't regard myself as either special or superior and nor do I think I belong to any "class". I am who I am and I try to be useful and helpful. I treat people politely and with respect and hope for the same back. I try to fit in and conform to society and lead a good and useful life. I hope that just makes a good citizen and of no particular class of any sort.
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And that is exactly how you come across PP:)
Pat
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>>And that is exactly how you come across PP:)
Indeed. A good egg, I reckon.
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i have no aspirations
i work
i pay my way
im happy to be working class
i have food in the fridge and a roof over my head and ten bob in my pocket
what more can man desire?
oh yes i have woman too
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Woman 2. You lucky lucky man.
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Only ten bob in his pocket, though.
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...Only ten bob in his pocket, though...
And he only found that under the back seat of a trade-in.
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He really means ten bob, he is such a tight get, he still has a ten bob note in his wallet.
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It is all down to Maslow's hierarchy of needs most people are happy once they have the basic needs. However some people stride to want more.
I think a lot of class is pfd anyway. I think the most important thing about class is it actually has very little do with money these days.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 13 Feb 11 at 03:02
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My roots are very working class but IMO it matters not a jot where you come from but what you do with your life.
I hope that I live respected and die regretted......
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>> Only ten bob in his pocket, though.
>>
With two women, he's lucky to have that!
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I'm slightly surprised - my working class roots are well documented - my dad was from a well working class background, one of eight, two of them moved into "professions" which no doubt uplifted offspring - most of us have done very well for ourselves and have adopted middle class ways really, one of us has done really well (cousin) and knocks about with aristocracy in an ancient professional role. When we met at the time of her father's death last summer she was still well in touch with her roots, but her children have stepped up further onto the greasy pole....Me ? I don't really care, it certainly means less in Wales than in England where most Welsh people are from the "Werin or Gwerin" despite their apparent current "class" and are proud of their roots as well.
Roy Hattersly puts it rather well in his descriptions of the Welsh working class in his book about Lloyd George. I won't spoil the surprise. But the Welsh were able to educate themselves out of their hovels, mainly through the Chapels, and consequently became upwardly mobile - plenty of living examples of this upward mobility - Huw Edwards being the one that springs to mind - his father was an intellectual power house but kept very, very close to his working class routes.Huw less so.
I don't give a stuff about class - but I suppose I do aspire to middle class values.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 22:39
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Being perfectly serious for a moment, I don't really think of "class" as a measurement tool for myself or others. It's a concept I find very hard to relate to. Sure some people have greater wealth or have benefitted from educational opportunities or indeed life experiences than others but the markers on my measuring stick when sizing others up is their conduct and demeanour rather than taking a reading from the street they grew up in or the value of their possesions. All walks of life contain a spectrum of personalities some of whom are great value as human beings, some who are not and a vast majority who are somewhere in between.
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My parents would say they are a middle class, but I bed to differ, they read the Mail not the Telegraph.
The jobs my parents had were very middle class though, but the past 15 years all the jobs my dad has done are very working class.
The reason I say I am from a middle class background is education not really university but were always told go to college to get a better job, we were not send down the mill at 16.
My grandparents all had a mixture of working class and middle class jobs but the London side of the family about 150 years ago where very rich business men and they owned a few buildings including a factory on Kings Road, Chelsea.
Ten years ago if anybody asked I would say I was middle class as I am fairly well spoken and don't swear (much) etc. Now however I just don't aspire to be middle class or working class I am just myself.
I think working and middle class have merged anyway and the bounderies are not at all as clear as they were 30 years ago.
The first I knew of anything odd was when I ended up at a school in a poorer area, I got called posh (and other names like it) because of my dads job, where I live and the fact I had a PC and even the internet. So you can imagine the commedy value of my dads Lada.
I am anything put posh but put me in a mens club and I would be a intermediated at the same time I don't like posh and pretentious pubs either. I cannot speak the lingo of the streets but does that anything do with class anyway?
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Humph,
i think the Scots have a similar view to class as the Welsh do.
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So it would seem. I can't remember it being discussed or focussed on much.
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Seems to be the same here - In the UK I almost think it's an English obsession.
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As they have none its not surprising.
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I find the class thing quite laughable, petty snobberies creep into it, estate agent's selling ''The Meadows'' (there might have been meadows there before they put 500 couldn't swing a cat bijou executive barrack style gaffs on it ) push it to massage fragile aspirational egos.
There's a new 'village' going up not far away, all along the outer perimiter as you drive by on the way to the distribution centres just past, there are artwork signboards giving the impression of steady chaps playing cricket in this secluded wonderland...i'm yet to work out whose garden will be big enough for the pitch.
I care not a jot if people feel they're a peg or three up the ladder, good for them if it makes them happy...sitting back, taking stock and realising who convinced them and why that they are of a raised class might be good for them.
The thing that does gall me is benefit and other ne'er do well scroungers calling themselves working class...in a lot of cases the've never been working class and have no intention of becoming so, as the mere mention of a days real work would frighten the living daylights out of them.
PS. I'm working class, not particularly proud of it but that's who i am, i come from real parents who were working class people who couldn't have been better role models or more decent honourable people, and i'm glad to be their son, and glad to see their decency passed to my children.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 23:39
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That is the problem with the word working class, it has sometimes become confused of which some might call the underclass.
I think working class/middle class no longer properly exists anymore but the undeerclass culture certainly does.
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I am solid working class. A patriotic Englishman of Irish descent. Typical Londoner! :-)
Luckily for me I've had a LOT of good breaks in life, and so I have a few savings. Most of the time I don't FEEL myself as belonging to any class. However, I rarely feel comfortable in middle-class circles (work functions and the like). Slag me off for stereotyping as much as you like, but the English middle-classes must be some of the most snobbish on the planet.
>> estate agent's selling ''The Meadows'' (there might have been meadows there before they
>> put 500 couldn't swing a cat bijou executive barrack style gaffs on it )
Near me there is a housing development called Abbey View. There hasn't been an abbey there since Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries almost 500 years ago! There was a Lunatic Asylum on the site, but "Asylum View" doesn't have the same ring to it.
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Nice one Londoner - made me LOL :)
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>> I too have made a judgement about you John H, yet I don't know you.
>> Nothing wrong with that, I suspect lots of people here have made a judgement about
>> you.
>>
I'll make a judgement about you and the others then. Goes to prove your and their sheer stupidity, innit?
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>> I'll make a judgement about you and the others then. Goes to prove your and
>> their sheer stupidity, innit?
Just to clarify - you're saying it's stupid to form an impression of someone from their posts?
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>> >> unless of course it is
>> titled like this one.
>>
>>
What's a "titled thread" ? Does it have a little coronet icon to display its status?
Drop-down menu "Sort by order of precedence".
Perhaps ducal threads automatically go straight to the top, while peasant threads are deleted out of hand.
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What often goes unmentioned is that many so called 'old money' familes actually stem from one generation that had an idea, seized an opportunity and made a mint.
Then subsequent generations of that family did a great job of managing the assets.
I have a customer who's ancestors made a fortune from whisky. That money was then sunk it a variety of enterprises, many of which made money in their own right and today they have a decently large portfolio with a net worth of app £35 million according to the Times Rich List. They are not in the least bit 'up themselves' and will still go any make you a cuppa and pass the time of day with you.
The reason these fortunes carry on despite huge death duties every 50 years or so is that despite huge asset wealth, many so called posh old money familes live somewhat modest lives compared to people like footballers in order to protect the pot for future generations.
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I met a very interesting man, on holiday in Portugal, about 15 years ago. We and our wives were at adjacent sun-loungers and I asked him if he would could care to swap newspapers to read. It turned out they were there without a car and we offered him and his wife a day out in the mountains. We had a day out, eating local wine and cheese in a village bar and a good time was had by all. He had introduced himself and I thought I recognized the name but made nothing of it at the time.
When I got home I found out that he had left the Army, as a corporal, at the end of WW2 and he and a friend had pooled their discharge pay-outs and used them to rent a bomb site off Baker Street for use as a car park. To end the story it turns out that he was one of the co-founders of NCP, and is a very rich man indeed. He gives money to good causes, has no children and is leaving all his money to a charitable foundation. A real rags to riches story and he didn't seem to think he belonged to aspire to or belong to any "Class" - just a very lucky and good man.
X and Y teamed up after investing £200 in a bombsite in central London in October 1948.
The two ex-servicemen went into partnership and bought the area in Red Lion Square, Holborn. They converted it into a car park, naming the business Central Car Parks.
Bomb site
A ż200 bombsite grew into a business empire
At the time the business was considered a wild gamble since parking was unrestricted and the number of cars on the road was few.
However as post-war austerity receded, their operation took off. They expanded their company by buying National Car Parks, founded by Colonel Frederick Lucas in 1931, from his widow Anne Lucas in 1958.
The deal created Europe's largest car parking organisation.
X & Y each got £580 million from the sale
Last edited by: overthehill on Fri 11 Feb 11 at 10:52
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I think the business of trying to pin down the concept of social class is futile. My Irish great-grandfather wasted the family farming fortune on drink and horse-racing so my grandfather came to England in 1915 as a mule-driver for the British army. He started a timber haulage firm after the Great War but was killed by a falling tree in 1927. My father and I both grew up as council house kids and I left school at 15 with no qualifications and got an apprenticeship in newspapers. I escaped very early to a comfortable existence in rural France. So what does that make me? Other than very lucky of course.
I prefer the explanation of the one man who doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far - Karl Marx. There are only economic classes - those who have to sell their labour to live (or live off those who do) and those who don't.
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>> Karl Marx. There are only economic classes - those who have to sell their labour to live (or >>live off those who do) and those who don't.
That is indeed about the size of it. But we British have a special take on the peripheral details. I once wrote a piece about British accents, in French, for the Paris paper I then worked for. Its 'peg' was some comment by a South African linguistics professor on Mrs Thatcher's accent. It included a passage something like:
'... When two Englishmen greet one another, with a fixed and distant look in their eyes, each is listening not to the meaning of the other's words but to his soul, via the architecture of his vowels. This makes the English seem like a nation of parrots, something that goes back to a time when people perhaps not yet quite human uttered cries, like birds or apes...'
The Frogs loved it.
As for myself, I sound posh but very seldom look it, swear incessantly and have a lot of bad habits.
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>> As for myself, I sound posh but very seldom look it, swear incessantly and have
>> a lot of bad habits.
Crumbs. We have more in common than I ever imagined.. :-)
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...who doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far - Karl Marx....
When I did some reading around this a few years ago, I picked up on a phrase which is taken to be Marx's definition of working class:
"An artisan is a person who has nothing to sell other than his labour."
Many of us will have started out as artisans, but will have accumulated capital - in its broadest sense - during our working lives.
I am still working in a broadly similar job, but now have capital - Iffy Towers - which I could sell.
Am I still an artisan, a working class person?
My conclusion is Marx was a clever chap, but he didn't foresee Thatcher's great property owning democracy.
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Sady, Iffy, this country isn't an outright democracy, Thatcher the Great wouldn't have dared try that.
And as for property owning, that's going rapidly out of the window as first time buyers simply can't first time buy any more. We're going to end up looking like Europe with many more life long private renters than ever before.
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...ady, Iffy, this country isn't an outright democracy, Thatcher the Great wouldn't have dared try that...
For the sake of not sending the discussion way off beam, I'll amend the remark to:
"Marx didn't foresee the artisans would end up owning their homes outright."
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>>And as for property owning, that's going rapidly out of the window as first time buyers
>>simply can't first time buy any more.
Blame Gordon Brown and his "miracle" decade. (Otherwise known as legalised theft by the old from future generations.)
Brown has helped to subjugate the working classes, as Labour always do.
It annoys me enormously, just in case you cannot work it out. A nation does not progress by restricting the intellectual contribution of the poor. A bit like Hitler, really, who drove out/killed millions of Germans including many who were successful/intelligent/wealthy. If he hadn't waged war against Germans he would have been far harder to defeat.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 11 Feb 11 at 12:04
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I think most of class is irrelevant these days.
The nobility have titles, but have lost their seats in the House.
The poor can go to direct grant schools or grammar schools, decent universities and then into the professions as easily as the wealthy. By the time they're 45 you cannot tell the difference.
Oh dear. Some kind-thinking crowd abolished direct grant schools, and grammar schools, so now the poor struggle to get into decent universities in a way they didn't 30, 40, 50 years ago.
Well done Labour at subjugating the working classes in order to keep the party alive. The ex-working classes don't need the Labour party.
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Oh dear. I do hope you don't think I'm a Labourist. I've voted Tory more times than Labour (the latter having secured my ballot preceisely zero times in any kind of election).
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>> I do hope you don't think I'm a Labourist.
Why would I?
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Because you quoted my message and went in to one about how crap Labour are. Which is a good way of indicating that you're: A) replying to me directly, and B) showing that you think I'm a Labour supporter.
If you didn't want to give that impression, you wouldn't have quoted me.
'S not difficult.
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>>Which is a good way of indicating that you're: A) replying to me directly, and B) showing
>>that you...
... agree with you!!!
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My dad always told me that if you want to get ahead financially, you want to be aspire to the politics of individual aspiration which was traditionally the Conservatives, not Labour. I guess it was reinforced by the fact that under Thatcher, his company which he started in 1982, thrived and got him where he is today.
My East German relatives actually werent so keen when the Wall came down because suddenly they became part of Capitalist Europe and they were entrenched in the ideology of only doing just enough work as they would get paid regardless. There was no aspiration to do better than you were already doing, which was much the same as anyone else.
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>> My East German relatives actually werent so keen when the Wall came down
I can understand that. There's more to life than money and material trappings in some people's books. People were very happy in Socialist Yugoslavia for instance, but no-one was hugely wealthy. People had the time and resources to follow intellectual and other pursuits which they actually wanted to, and which made them happy, rather than chasing the Dinar 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to stay afloat.
Everyone had enough (in terms of posessions and freedoms) and desired very little more.
Then the Nationalists and Mafiosi took over. The rest is history.
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My grandfather who was East German by birth once told me about when he visited in the late 60's and early 70's, how there was quite a wrangle at the border because he was driving a nearly new Ford Zepher an they werent at all keen on the locals getting a glimpse of such delights. He said it drew a small crowd in his town as nobody had seen such a car before, they thought he was some sort of government rep at first.
There was descent about Communism though. My dad visited with them in the mid 70's and the local vicar was very openly critical when he knew nobody local was listening, incase he disappeared in the night.
My East German relatives are now adjusted to Western life - my two cousins over there both took the opportunity to study medicine and travel - the youngest who is 26 is on Facebook - can you imagine that level of worldly contact 30 years ago. Some progress is always good and you must give people the option of having other things, they dont have to want them.
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>> My East German relatives are now adjusted to Western life - my two cousins over
>> there both took the opportunity to study medicine and travel - the youngest who is
>> 26 is on Facebook - can you imagine that level of worldly contact 30 years
>> ago.
Medicine was available at Eastern European universities before the wall came down. And people did travel - friends of mine in the Soviet Union were widely travelled in Africa and Asia, in fact more widely travelled than I was.
The Facebook story applies to us all, all over the world. I remember the wonderment of seeing my school friend chatting to someone in Australia on Prestel. Noel Edmonds used to host Christmas Day special shows in which he arranged for people to speak to their relatives down under for the first time in decades. So we didn't have it all that much better in those days.
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Perhaps available, but when you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, how would you access the education? After the wall came down, the availability of cars meant they could commute and broaden their horizons. They never left the local area until then, there was no encouragement to do so, not least from their parents.
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Access to education for the less priveliged in our country is still a massive issue and talking point. Especially those in cities.
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In the late seventies or early eighties I was having dinner, alone, in the restaurant of the Aletti hotel in downtown Algiers, a classy establishment that in the days of the French had been the municipal casino (its writing paper claimed it still was). At the next table was a large, noisy party of Russians enjoying a well-watered banquet.
My wife has an old poster from the time of the Russian revolution. It shows a loaf of bread on a plate and in the background some downtrodden-looking people. Its slogan, in big letters, is 'Pomny o golodaiushchi!' (Feed the hungry!).
I wanted very much to quote this to the aid workers, diplomats or KGB at the next table to see how they would take it. But I didn't quite dare.
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>> Well done Labour at subjugating the working classes in order to keep the party alive.
>> The ex-working classes don't need the Labour party.
The trouble with the labour party is that they only have one method of operation to remove class barriers.
Drag everyone down to the gutter, rather than elevate those who are already there.
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>>Drag everyone down to the gutter, rather than elevate those who are already there.<<
That's pretty much how French worker politics operates even now. Sadly.
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Great Armstrong & Miller sketch on their current series, spoof of 'Who do you think you are' the (serious) BBC genealogical programme:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=c65QRaR16io
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That's an interesting article, although I have to say I've never heard the terms "rah", "charver" or "worcester woman" before. You learn something new every day, and in my experience, forget it instantly.
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I think it's more subtle than most people appreciate, and is largely a matter of individual inner feeling. People seem to naturally want to have origins, roots, somewhere they came from. This is encouraged by TV programmes, either at the detailed genealogical level of paper records, and at a genetic level with DNA testing.
Obviously in practice we all have thousands of different roots, so who we really are or like to think we are is a matter of choice. The curious thing is that whatever choice we make, other people instinctively pick it up, and go along with it, as long as the acting is reasonably authentic. In general, others always treat someone according to his own estimation.
The feeling of inner belonging to one's chosen group may be a simple matter of class as generally understood, but is occasionally more specific, and rarer. Example the feelings held by "old" catholic families in England. Sometimes even a single family has it. It is hard to pinpoint, but you know them when you meet them.
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"The UK Office of National Statistics (ONS) produced a new socio-economic classification in 2001.[6] The reason was to provide a more comprehensive and detailed classification to take newer employment patterns into account.
Group ... Description ... Old equivalent
1 Higher Professional and Managerial workers A
2 Lower Managerial and Professional workers B
3 Intermediate occupations C1 and C2
4 Small Employers and non professional self-employed C1 and C2
5 Lower Supervisory and technical C1 and C2
6 Semi Routine Occupations D
7 Routine Occupations D
8 Long term unemployed E"
The UK Office of National Statistics doesn't mention "working class". Before I retired I was in Socio-Economic Class 5.
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Working class roots - Zero
