| Non-motoring > Power of attorney | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Cliff Pope | Replies: 20 |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 10:16
Power of attorney - Cliff Pope
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My mother set up an Enduring Power of Attorney in my favour under the old regulations, but it has not so far been registered. I understand the process - solicitor via GP. My mother has been on a slow mental decline, now diagnosed as probably early-stage Alzheimers, and is approaching the point when she would lack the capacity to intelligently manage her affairs. However the problem is that she has ups and downs, with good days and bad days. On a good day she can quite rationally agree that it would be sensible if I handled things for her, and then she needn't worry about them anymore. But on a bad day she is quite liable to intervene and undo eveything I have done the day before. As I understand it a power of attorney is only permissive. It is not the same as compulsorily taking control out of her hands, to the extent that the bank for example would cease to recognise her instructions. To give an example, I helped her set up a direct debit to pay her phone bill. That was fine. But when the confirmation came in the post she had forgotten all about it, and rang BT and cancelled the arrangement, claiming to know nothing about it. So I had to start all over again. It seems to me the power of attorney would not actually cover the real situation. To do so would require authority to intercept her post, monitor her phone calls, and in effect put a blanket stop on all possible actions she might attempt to carry out, with any organisation. That power probably does not exist. Has anyone else been in this position? |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 10:30
Power of attorney - CGNorwich
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"It is not the same as compulsorily taking control out of her hands, to the extent that the bank for example would cease to recognise her instructions. " Once power of attorney has been granted and documents presented to the bank the account will be changed so that they are in the attorney's name. Your mother will no longer be able to access the account directly. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 10:46
Power of attorney - Bromptonaut
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My understanding of the old rules are that you must register it with the Court of Protection as soon as the donor is or is becoming incapacitated. The purpose of registration is to allow the court to regularise the power and to adjudicate on any disputes (eg between siblings etc) as to its validity. I don't think that necessarily means you need to use it. The Office of the Public Guardian has a website and helpline, alternatively CAB and the now merged Help the Aged/Age Concern might have useful information. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 10:58
Power of attorney - Fenlander
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>>>My understanding of the old rules are that you must register it with the Court of Protection as soon as the donor is or is becoming incapacitated. Yes that's true.... it's judging that time that is so difficult in these cases. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 11:14
Power of attorney - Cliff Pope
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That's interesting. My solicitor says it doesn't quite work like that in practice, and that the person continues to be able to give instructions to the bank. I need to investigate that further, because that is the crux of the matter. If she can continue to use cheques, draw cash, etc then the potential problems remain open-ended. What you are saying is that in effect the bank account is transferred to a new owner, and the former client becomes a kind of non-person? I can see the potential for very embarassing scenes here. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 11:43
Power of attorney - Fenlander
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I think there are circumstances where an EPA can allow you to take part/full control of a persons affairs before they are fully incapacitated. However usually they are enacted after a decision is finally taken that the person can't manage their own affairs. If the relative was still allowed to operate their affairs after this time it would make the whole point of an EPA a bit daft to my mind. But I can't find confirmation anywhere from a source of repute so you really need to question the solicitor a little more closely. BTW if you make a wrong step in any of this I do know the court of protection has the right to take over the relatives affairs and then the nightmare really starts. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 13:44
Power of attorney - Bromptonaut
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>> BTW if you make a wrong step in any of this I do know the >> court of protection has the right to take over the relatives affairs and then the >> nightmare really starts. If the EPA is defective the court's alternative is to appoint a deputy, as would be the case where incapacity occurs without any preceding EPA/CPoA. Before the Mental Capacity Act came in 2005 this role was known as a Receiver. The court’s preference is obviously to appoint a trusted relative as deputy/receiver but where there are family disputes that may not be a viable option. Even a family lawyer may be identified as being on one side or the other. Historically the court might then appoint a government official, variously the Official Solicitor, the Principal of the Court's Management/Receivership Division or the Public Trustee as 'Receiver of Last Resort'. I was for a time one of the officials carrying out that work. By a long chalk the most rewarding thing I've done in 30yrs in the public service. Of course we sometimes got it wrong but equally we were working with cases where family were quite literally at war with each other and the receiver was seen as an ally or opponenet depending on the time & the issue at stake. Following a damning review in 1999 the govt reformed the then Public Trust Office and a panel of external receivers, the vast majority solicitors, was created to take on the last resort role. That panel still exists but is presently being 'recompeted'. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 13:47
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 10:44
Power of attorney - Fenlander
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Been through this very difficult time/situation Cliff but the death of the relative came just prior to the point where we thought the EPA needed to be registered (enacted). First thing is that some EPAs are no longer valid depending on when they were signed... you need to check if yours is OK or if it needs replacing by the newer LPA. Assuming your EPA is valid do you know the process to enact it... notifying the person involved and several relatives as dictated by the Court of Protection? It is possible to apply to the court if you think it will distress the person involved to be notified that you are taking this step. We were dealing with exactly the same situation as you regarding the OK one day then not a clue the next. Setting aside the personal feelings over this it did make it so hard to get anything done. In a calm moment we'd set up, for example, a meeting with the bank then when it came to it the relative would deny there was anything to talk about. In some circumstances it can make it seem you are trying to manipulate the relative and their financial affairs... we kept records and copies of everything down to the last few pence. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 11:32
Power of attorney - Falkirk Bairn
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Not Power of Attorney but we get all bills to our address. Gas/electricity, house insurance, water rates................all sent to our house and we pay all bills. Most will have a billing address and a supplying address 7 pages from the gas board became 1 sheet page 6 of 7 - That is how it came! It was not important, it was an advert.................it was an instruction to allow council to look after the garden on a fortnightly basis - fall off the list and you wait 12 months to get back on it. Redirecting Bills costs nothing and solves at least 1 x problem per month - no red reminders. Tip - if the old person has Sky/Virgin Media put in Parental control - we were billed for "Naughty Knights" and many downloads of games and competitions. Last edited by: Falkirk Bairn on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 11:35
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 11:46
Power of attorney - Stuu
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My parents have power of attorney over my nans affairs, she was told because she cant get out and about, it allows my parents to sort her complicated finances. Shes not 'gone' yet, but her memory is terrible, to the extent that she simply cant remember what stuff is although understands it if explained, but the explanation leaves when you leave the room sometimes. So my parents make sure that all financial correspondance goes through them, so they can read stuff first. It seems heavy-handed, but actually the biggest step is realising that its not working and sticking your oar in even if there is initial resisitance. Its at teh stage now where my nan just says that when she uses her card, she wants ten grand to be available, tells my dad to do whatever he thinks best with the rest, which he does, but it took her 3 years to arrive at this status quo. Good luck. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 11:49
Power of attorney - Fenlander
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>>>Not Power of Attorney but we get all bills to our address. Yes this is the sort of thing we did in the final months but it was amazing how many things organisations wouldn't let us do unless we had PofA. For example TV licence folks insisted they spoke to the relative and established their ID then the extent of the permissions they were giving me to assist.... before they would then allow the phone to be handed to me to make arrangements for an address change or something simple like that. Simple stuff could take ages this way. Some organisations flatly refused to talk to me without PofA though. Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 11:51
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 13:54
Power of attorney - Falkirk Bairn
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>> >> Some organisations flatly refused to talk to me without PofA though. >> My reply to the above 1) You can speak to the confused 95 yr old - make what you can because we cannot get sense. 2) If your company refuses to cooperate with me - bills will go amiss delayed and unpaid 3) Cooperate with me and you will get Direct Debit on my account 100% success, no refusals |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 15:47
Power of attorney - Cliff Pope
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Thanks everyone. It's a useful tip I hadn't thought of, simply to route bills etc through me. That might be a sort of half-way house, without the legal pitfalls. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 15:53
Power of attorney - Bromptonaut
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Cliff, I was going to post later when I had time that you might want to compartmentalise the practical stuff from the legal process. You seem to have done that already. Don't forget though if there's an Alzheimer's diagnosis it's almost certain that you should be registering the EPA. My recollection is that if you rely on it with a bank or similar they will, if on the ball, want to see the copy stamped as registered by the court. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 16:03
Power of attorney - Cliff Pope
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That's a wise tip. I hadn't intended trying to use it unregistered - for a start, it's in the solicitor's safekeeping, so would only be released I was told after signature by the GP and due registration. One difficulty is Alzheimer's is a very variable desease, not actually positively diagnosable until after death. It's early stages look just like any other mental slowing associated with old age, it can come and go, and the rate of progression can vary considerably. I understand sometimes the symptons can sometimes be held at bay even though the underlying deterioration may be progressing. I am becoming very aware that prompting and guiding someone in completing and signing a form could look very like undue influence or worse if an observer chose to see it that way. |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 17:16
Power of attorney - Bromptonaut
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OPG guidance on EPA registration:- www.publicguardian.gov.uk/forms/registering-lpa-epa.htm |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 21:27
Power of attorney - Bromptonaut
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Cliff, Earlier stuff posted in relative haste while working. Can be a bit more thoughtful now. Been in near identical situation with partner’s mother. We started to notice about 10 yrs ago, shortly after she was 70, that she was loosing her grip. Started to repeat herself, got thoroughly lost in Birmingham (her birthplace). Couldn’t understand the mobile phone we got her after the three hours of nail biting while she was in incommunicado orbit round Brum or the computer we got her for her 70th. Previously she’d taken to techy stuff like a duck to water. Mercifully we were able to secure her accommodation in new sheltered housing close to our home and persuade her to sell the family house in N Staffs. During the move she lodged on a rota with her siblings or with us. During that time her 'official' address was care of us. Her affairs were uncomplicated, just bank accounts and a handful of privatisation/demutualisation shares. She never questioned why, after the move was complete, her bills & bank statements didn’t turn up at the new place. Partner’s sister was manic-depressive and on my strong advice we got an EPA in favour of a solicitor (the prospect of the sister questioning our every move was too dire to contemplate). Medical advice at that stage was that Mum understood the consequences. However, during the time she was with us/ her siblings we helped her put everything on direct debit and she gave my partner co-signing powers on her accounts. Although we should have prompted the solicitor to register the EPA we never did as it would have made matters more complicated. The sister’s symptoms changed and she hassled us much less than we anticipated. Mother declined very slowly and lasted as long as she could in sheltered flat with carers calling daily. In late 2008 she had to go to a care home and is still there. Her affairs run on autopilot and we’ve never got round to regularising the position and getting one of us appointed as her Deputy. And I bet there are lots of others like us. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 21:29
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 21:37
Power of attorney - Zero
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>> And I bet there are lots of others like us. Yeah - kind of Autopilot care. We have an Aunty that nearly died in her house when she collapsed. We sold the house at Auction, just by getting her to sign the docs, got the money paid into her account, and got her into a very nice (but expensive) care home. All payments in and out are now automated, and the care home gives her pocket money and takes her on trips for clothes, she needs to buy nothing else. Never went near POA, no need as she has no idea or need to know how its all working. It all goes pete tong of course when the money from the house sale runs out before she does. Its gonna be a close run thing. Edit, sadly it gets easier to organise and to handle when they get really bad and loose *all* their marbles. The bit leading up to that is the worse. Its the periods of lucidity that is painful for them and you. Last edited by: Zero on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 21:40
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 21:48
Power of attorney - Bromptonaut
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>> Edit, sadly it gets easier to organise and to handle when they get really bad >> and loose *all* their marbles. The bit leading up to that is the worse. Its >> the periods of lucidity that is painful for them and you. +1 !!! |
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New Wed 16 Feb 11 22:54
Power of attorney - John H
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>> My mother set up an Enduring Power of Attorney in my favour under the old >> regulations, but it has not so far been registered. www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8305337/Power-of-attorney-chaos-hits-elderly.html www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8305428/Im-a-solicitor-and-I-cant-sort-it-out.-What-hope-has-anyone-else.html |
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New Thu 17 Feb 11 12:01
Power of attorney - AnotherJohnH
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whether or not you register your EPA, keep thorough records and receipts. If you register, get a number of "office copies" made at the time for your use - they are legally as good as the real thing, and I've had to send them to all and sundry and had difficulty getting them back once or twice. |
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