Recent headlines indicate that 10% of our children are living in poverty.
Here in Hull we rank high up the list - as usual.
Local BBC news interviewed a single mother who by any stretch of the imagination was not undernourished. Footage of the kids playing on their Playstation in their bedroom on a portable colour TV.
Mothers benchmark was that it was embarrassing that her children could not have I phones like the other kids. She said she would love a 9 X 5 job - wouldn't we all sweetheart!
Are children really in poverty or am I being my usual cynical self? Discuss.
Note to myself - must get the chimney sweep sorted for spring.
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what gets me is 1400 people to lose their jobs in the council yet the scammers still scam the system
it so boils my blood as i work hard for my money like you do and see the wasters in society funded to the grave
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>> it so boils my blood as i work hard for my money like you do
>> and see the wasters in society funded to the grave
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I would fund their graves.
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There's official definitions of poverty - I think a saw something on TV the other day which mentioned a single parent family income of less than £12k qualified?
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its poverty when you see kids with holes in their shoes
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And the mother with a fag on the go and no shortage of booze to swill into the huge carcass.
Poverty isn't just a lack of money, throwing money at a problem is labours answer to everything.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 26 Feb 11 at 22:42
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Poverty appears to be any sign of having to be realistic about spending money or reign in wants and desires.
Its when you cant afford to turn the heating on, when your hungry and theres no food to change that, things like that. Given the benefits system, there is no solid reason why someone should be in poverty that I can see.
My wife and I will qualify for working tax credits in April which we shall claim ( looks like the amount will offset the fuel rises ) and by all accounts, they are a useful amount of money which do just what they are supposed to - take the edge off - so they money will go in the bank to cover winter gas bills and a few running repairs to the house - it wont be going on the lottery or a flipping playstation ( I have a secondhand PS2 ).
You can tell genuine poverty by behaviour.
I have rather more time for the plight of the elderly frankly.
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Official definition is income less than something like 60% of median. Not sure how that measures up to quality of life but, when looking at tellies and toys in 'poor' households don't forget the loan sharks.
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>> Official definition is income less than something like 60% of median.
Any idea what that is?
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>> Any idea what that is?
The latest year for which household income data is available is 2008/09. In that year, the 60% threshold was worth: £119 per week for single adult with no dependent children; £206 per week for a couple with no dependent children; £202 per week for a single adult with two dependent children under 14; and £288 per week for a couple with two dependent children under 14. These sums of money are measured after income tax, council tax and housing costs have been deducted, where housing costs include rents, mortgage interest (but not the repayment of principal), buildings insurance and water charges. They therefore represent what the household has available to spend on everything else it needs, from food and heating to travel and entertainment.
www.poverty.org.uk/summary/key%20facts.shtml
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not poverty then as all fixed bills are paid
they just have to pay their own taxi fares to the doctors/bingo/asda/pub/dole office/etc
cant remember the last time i went in a taxi
oh yes back from a holiday and knackered
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Cant you rent a TV these days anymore? I dont think my parents even bought a TV until the early 90's, couldnt afford it!
Last edited by: Wilberstuforce31 on Sat 26 Feb 11 at 22:49
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loan sharks are for people living beyond their fixed means and they will never get off the treadmill as they dont want to
3 balls are for real people who need short term loans to see them through a hickup
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Yes one can rent TVs, and washing machines too.
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>> Official definition is income less than something like 60% of median. Not sure how that
>> measures up to quality of life but, when looking at tellies and toys in 'poor'
>> households don't forget the loan sharks.
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And therein lies the problem. We are working with a false relative definition of poverty rather than a meaningful absolute one.
Within this nonsense definition, if the median were earning footballers' salaries, poverty would be defined as only having one Bentley.
I suspect, but don't know for sure, that the relative definition of poverty is a Socialist invention, as it implies that no matter how well the country does that poverty will always remain, and therefore provide a platform for the left to argue from.
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Interesting article on BBC site discussing changing definition:-
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4070112.stm
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A quote from an unemployed single father I recalled from a while back about how his money was spent - I thought at the time he seemed to have a genuine grip on how it was to have little money.
"when your unemployed you have a budget‚ £65 a week and I have to run a car or I dont see my children and the children live with me for over 1/3d of the year all the extra heating ect comes out my 65 and im expected to help with some of their clothing needs, mind you I get buy with 2 pairs trouser, 2 shorts and a few t-shirts and jumpers for me and no heating when the children arnt home.
Here's is my approx breakdown
food/groceries budget about £20 a week , £5 gas £5 elec , £5 water £3 tv , £10 telephone and internet and mobile, £10 car and insurance and the remaining £10 for clothes and luxury items and petrol butIi some times have to reduce the food amount home grown fruit and veg helps and in the summer I dont always top up the gas but then it runs out in the winter."
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how the hell can ready meals be cheaper than belly pork potatoes and frozen peas
thanks for the link but its written by failed teachers who get jobs in jobsworth enviroments
thank goodness this new government sees through all this crap
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>> Interesting article on BBC site discussing changing definition:-
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>> news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4070112.stm
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Thanks - that was an interesting read. I think that means I side with the "basket of goods" approach of Rowntree.
Talk of running cars, luxuries, internet, mobile telephones and so on doesn't really tally with poverty.
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In the late 60s I attended a sudden death in one of the few residential properties on the division.
There was a small terrace of cottages by the canal near Piccadilly Station. Cobbled road, communal toilet at the back.
The woman's house, rented, of course, had an earth floor downstairs which sloped up towards the cooking range. That was the only heat and the walls had damp a good 3 ft up all round.
A bed, a chest of drawers upstairs. A ricketty table, a couple of hard chairs in the one downstairs room were her only possessions apart from a few clothes and pot/pans/etc. There was no water in the house apart from that on the walls.
I'm not even sure there was any electricity.
Now that's poverty ! Only 40 yrs ago too. There were families living in the other houses.
Like to see some of todays people live like that...I know I couldn't !
Ted
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Working in a CAB call centre - I was genuinely shocked how many people are in genuine dire straits - as a friend remarked everyone is one meal away from anarchy.
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>> I was genuinely shocked how many people are
>> in genuine dire straits
TBH I'm not, kids tend to get what they want regardless of income and then expect to carry on when they fly the family's nest... When they don't cut back they get into debt... I went through it when we had the kids, but careful management got us out of the mess, but I can understand how easy it is to do it... and if you don't get a grip then you're in deep pdf...
Peer pressure doesn't help either... when your mate has the latest mobile that's what you want as well... even if you don't really need it! Its taken us quite a while to get our youngest to prioritize things though the elder one was better, when at Uni she set a budget of £60pw for everything except flat rental and stuck to it... came out with just the student loans and no overdraft/loan debts... We worked out a budget before she went and she worked part time to fund it... Needless to say we're proud of her for doing it!
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 27 Feb 11 at 18:26
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>> Talk of running cars, luxuries, internet, mobile telephones and so on doesn't really tally with
>> poverty.
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Nail on the head, N_C!
Thats the bit I don't understand either... and you can add playstations, etc to the list...
The problem is that people just do not wish to adjust their lifestyle if their income goes down...
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>>The problem is that people just do not wish to adjust their lifestyle if their income goes down...
Spot on in my view. Many adjust, and manage very well indeed.
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We live in a land of plenty.
The Playstation is the new poverty.
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Yes, I suppose you are right (add mobile/car as well)...
But, at the end of the day, they are "nice to haves", not necessities... and its about time people realised that...
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...But, at the end of the day, they are "nice to haves", not necessities... and its about time people realised that...
Agreed, and as PU alluded to earlier, our land of plenty exists on a knife edge.
If supermarket deliveries are interrupted for one day, there's no bread on the shelves.
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Buy a breadmaker iffy ! Joking apart, our new house will be slightly more sustainable in respect of having a 1/2 acre meadow attached. Plans for that meadow include a veggie patch, potentially hens. Researching the potential for electricity generation via a wind turbine and or solar panels and possibly a geo-thermal ground source.....!
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>e
>> in respect of having a 1/2 acre meadow attached. Plans for that meadow include a
>> veggie patch, potentially hens.
Get a porker! super, friendly, affectionate, intelligent animals. Tasty too.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 27 Feb 11 at 10:02
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>> Get a porker! super, friendly, affectionate, intelligent animals. Tasty too.
To be fair to the beast, get at least two.
They're sociable and don't enjoy being alone.
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>>>Get a porker! super, friendly, affectionate, intelligent animals. Tasty too. To be fair to the beast, get at least two.
Pigs are fine if you want the land taken back to bare turned over earth!
Chickens on the other hand are a pleasure to own. Our 5 produce enough eggs for us, parents and 1 or 2 dozen to sell which pays for all the feed.
Mind you the house cost... ahem... £600+...... but we tend to forget that when saying how cheap they are to keep.
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gotta be runner ducks.
very friendly and the eggs are much better than chicken eggs
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...gotta be runner ducks...
And a few geese, which make good guard dogs.
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Strewth - it's going to end up like Noah's Ark. Loads of foxes in the area I would imagine....I'd need to sit on the stoup with a shotgun a banjo and a spitoon...oh and a pair of dungarees !
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>>> Loads of foxes in the area I would imagine
Just do your best with management and replace when taken.... it happens. Ducks are OK... but they make a terrible mess when it's wet (ie most of the winter) unless they are are on a huge area of grass. Eggs taste... well ducky.
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I don't doubt there are people living on the bread line, and have to struggle for every penny, and where luxuries are unheard of.
They don't make it into the news tho, probably due to feelings of shame and pride they don't seek to publicise their plight.
The people you see claiming poverty on the tele or the press, have no feelings of shame - or pride come to that
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I think the definintions of poverty perhaps come from reasonably well-off middle class people who cannot imagine someone living without the frippery they cant remember not having. The idea that someone may not own a TV or cant buy a Tesco Finest ready meal seems unholy to them.
I think the problem is often that the people who dont have alotta money simply dont have the budgeting skills, plus of course, the State will always save them, so why bother being responsible.
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tinyurl.com/n5a5b (link to wages statistics)
So what is a reasonable income for folk such as us?
One aged 75 (no TV tax!), one aged 73.
Home owners with no mortgage, but the usual expenses of food, gas, electricity and water as regular outgoings + running a car?
(Not living in an expensive area, so Band A Council tax at just over £1050 per annum.)
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I'm not sure that possession of money, or lack of money, has anything to do with budgeting skills. If you have loadsamoney you can still spend all of it and get into debt. There was a dumbo footballer last year getting though £25k in cash each weekend and he wasn't even sure where it was going. Sitting in the middle, in income terms, I know of a lady with a reasonable job, husband, 2 kids. Husband's work is less secure and pays less than hers. He's just owned up to £20k on his credit card. That's the house extension cancelled. And then there are people with a genuinely small income. Some manage their money well, others think they need an iPhone. So I really don't think that budgeting skills have anything to do with your income.
John
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I've had periods in my life when we've had nothing and I mean nothing to live on. No income and no state handouts because if you are working to build up a business they won't give you any dole. We had to become credit card tarts etc, taking interest free loans and paying them off with another one. Selling things to buy food, pay bills etc. Then I've had times when by some people's standards we were quite well off. Right now we're somewhere in the comfort zone which exists between the two states of financial extreme. This almost certainly won't last and we are mentally prepared for a swing in either direction.
If I've learned anything from all this, you can cope with most scenarios if you take a positive view of that which you have got and stop worrying about what you haven't.
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I can remember the old man having to sell the car to buy the christmas dinner.
Was that poverty? Possibly, but more like an adjustment of priority.
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...I can remember the old man having to sell the car to buy the christmas dinner...
Was it a turkey?
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Certainly was, an old Morris Series E. It had three piece rings, but only one of the pieces stayed in the engine
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>> 10% of our children are living in poverty
For millions of malnourished children in Asia/Africa, they would love to get the taste of that poverty in UK !
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"Poverty is defined relative to the standards of living in a society at a specific time. People live in poverty when they are denied an income sufficient for their material needs and when these circumstances exclude them from taking part in activities which are an accepted part of daily life in that society."
Scottish Poverty Information Unit
"The most commonly used way to measure poverty is based on incomes. A person is considered poor if his or her income level falls below some minimum level necessary to meet basic needs. This minimum level is usually called the "poverty line". What is necessary to satisfy basic needs varies across time and societies. Therefore, poverty lines vary in time and place, and each country uses lines which are appropriate to its level of development, societal norms and values."
The World Bank Organisation
"There are basically three current definitions of poverty in common usage: absolute poverty, relative poverty and social exclusion.
Absolute poverty is defined as the lack of sufficient resources with which to keep body and soul together. Relative poverty defines income or resources in relation to the average. It is concerned with the absence of the material needs to participate fully in accepted daily life.
Social exclusion is a new term used by the Government. The Prime Minister described social exclusion as "…a shorthand label for what can happen when individuals or areas suffer from a combination of linked problems such as unemployment, poor skills, low incomes, poor housing, high crime environments, bad health and family breakdown"."
The House of Commons Scottish Affairs Committee
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i see lots of kids with rickets trying to walk in their £100 trainers and hoodies made by tommy halfinger
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>> kids with rickets trying to walk
Heh heh... those low-slung trousers, and the rolling gait that goes with them, do suggest some sort of bone-softening condition.
Anyone who has been in places where there are genuinely poor people - and I have been in quite a few of them - knows that poverty in the true sense is almost non-existent in this country. However the point is well made that poverty is experienced as a relative condition: if everyone around you seems stone rich, you tend to feel poor.
By the definition given in the links above, incidentally, this country has more poor in it than nearly all other EC countries. But that is at least partly a function of the grossly excessive amounts paid to so many people in public and private sectors for, er, not much actually.
In places where people are genuinely poor they tend to look out for each other, and they tend to have dignity and touching courtesy in my experience. I am afraid that seldom applies to those who think they are poor in our society, although there are a lot of exceptions. Child-rearing in front of schlock-filled screens amounts to abuse in itself in many cases. Greed, shamelessness and criminality are rife at the bottom of our society.
As they also seem to be at the top. 'A fish rots from the head down'. Reforms are needed, moral and philosophic reforms perhaps even before economic ones. And as a notably anti-intellectual society which has prospered on relatively ill-gotten gains for centuries but regarded its wealth as some sort of birthright, I doubt really that ours is up to it. Years or decades of effort are needed, and populist politicians will torpedo it at short regular intervals.
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I think Zero has got this absolutely right.
We never hear of these people and forget they exist.
Pat
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We never hear of these people and forget they exist.
It's more comfortable to believe they don't actually exist.
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Of course they exist... just as they've always existed...I don't see anyone denying that... its just that the majority we see on the TV pleading poverty are not poor in the true sense, they just have their priorities wrong...
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"To either cut down on beer or the kids new gear, it's a big decision in a town called malice ..."
Last edited by: Chris S on Tue 1 Mar 11 at 12:11
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"This is the modern world."
And some people want jam on it.
Last edited by: Iffy on Tue 1 Mar 11 at 12:15
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Michael Blastland talking sense as usual:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8177864.stm
Important phrase in there defining poverty: "...the point at which people struggle to share the ordinary expectations of the majority."
And that's key. As society develops, becomes more technological and richer, then norms and aspirations change. In the 70s when I grew up, only the rich kids had an Atari. Now, relatively, Playstations are far more affordable (a used PS2 with games can be had for £30 or so).
It's not the same as what perhaps older generations understand as poverty, but it's still there (very, very few people go hungry any more). For me the really important thing is to differentiate between those who are poor by accident of fate (which can happen to anyone) and those that choose not to work and are poor because they rely on the state. I have huge sympathy for the former group, and none for the latter.
As has been pointed out above, I think the bigger problem is the poor elderly, who more frequently are cold and hungry and do not have the 'voice' to complain about it. They also as has been said are proud and generally avoid fuss.
Cheers,
Alex.
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Some people think they are poor because they don't have as much in the way of material possessions/entertainment options, etc as the majority.
There's also a massive poverty of expectation. No wonder that a higher proportion of kids from run down neighbourhoods drift into dependency on the state when all they see is the same. Drag your kids up without respect, love, a nurturing environment, the expectation that you'll go out there and earn a living to better yourself, and what do you expect, really?
Expecting a handout to furnish your home, buy the latest phone, etc makes me as mad as the next person, by the way.
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You only had to watch the programme on childbirth in Liberia the other night to see what real poverty is all about .
The UK midwife was offered a five year old or an 18 year old child to take away to look after by a desperate mother. Mothers were dying in childbirth for the want of money for basic medicines.. 10 in a family living in a hovel not much bigger than my garden shed..
I have seen desperation in the beggars of China and the far east , particularly I recall looking down to see one guy with no legs who sat in a rocking horse type frame and propelled himself around by rocking the frame, lifting it and then moving it forwards with his knuckles.
I do not believe anyone in UK has to live in real poverty these days ( except maybe Rattle if he doe not increase his charging ...)
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Child Poverty - Bellboy
