Today's Telegraph has a story
law-and-order/8355479/Police-pay-packets-must-be-cut-to-save-jobs-Home
-Secretary-to-warn
where it says
"The annual overtime bill alone is running at more than £450 million across the country and will be a key target of any reform.
Individual officers earn on average up to £3,000 a year in overtime. It emerged in 2009 that some officers in London were taking home more than £100,000 a year after doubling their incomes with overtime.
Officers can currently earn four hours overtime for being called back in after going off duty.
Overtime is also available when officers are called in for a shift without 15 days notice or working public holidays.
Chief officers have also become frustrated by the requirement to give officers three months' notice of their shifts, with any changes made at short notice raising the prospect of overtime payments. "
If that is true, do the panel think the Police deserve to have their pay terms and conditions drastically reviewed downwards to save taxpayers' money?
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Armed Forces don't get overtime and a lot of the junior ranks are paid a lot less than junior policepersons. NHS don't get overtime either. not at the lowly level that I worked at anyway. I can't quite see why the police should be treated differently.
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A lot of people don't get overtime, most professional and management grades don't get overtime.
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It's only PCs and Sergeants that get overtime in the Police. There was talk a few years ago that the two lower ranks would have a "buy out" in the same way as Inspectors did a few years ago. Basically the Inspectors got a 5k pay rise and lost all their overtime entitlements. It's right that they get paid for re-scheduling shifts at short notice - it's not a 9/5 weekend off job.
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>>It's right that they get paid for
>> re-scheduling shifts at short notice - it's not a 9/5 weekend off job.
>>
Why, PU? There are plenty of other shift jobs where people don't get paid for re-scheduling shifts... Mine for a start! I can get moved 2 hours each way from a start time, more if they ask nicely, but I don't get paid extra for doing it unless the new shift is longer...
I'm sure we saw the same in the Fireman's dispute a few years ago where these sorts of practices were costing the Gov a lot more than the "basic" pay that they are supposed to be on... The problem may be more that the PCs earning the extra may be a bit too reliant on it now and would find it hard to go back to the basic pay... The usual problem when overtime is regular, and then becomes "part" of the income in the eye of the employee...
Last edited by: hobby on Wed 2 Mar 11 at 14:45
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The whole set-up is a mess, and it's about time that it was sorted out.
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The wages aren't that high anyway. Hopefully the OT helps prop them up a bit. Strathclyde police publish wages for each grade, I suppose all the others do too. Comparing with an equiv level of responsibility in the private sector all the grades are down by at least £3k year and specifically top band sergents are nearer £7k down.
Last edited by: Skoda on Wed 2 Mar 11 at 14:13
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Daughter of a friend is in the police and she's early 20s, has a new car every year, income consistently well around £35k - solely down to regular overtime - doesn't do too badly out of it at all!!!
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Slight thread drift
I understand that a traffic warden, revenue enforcement person or whatever, is paid more than a junior soldier in Afghanistan.
The most junior private gets £17K and highest grade private gets £19.5K
The best info I can find on traffic wardens is
The 2009 figure is £20000. This is a difference of 0% from 2008 to 2009. Figure based on 1 respondents in the 2009 UK data survey.
In 2010, the average salary for Traffic Warden jobs is £31,666. Compared to 2009, this is a change of 58%. Figure based on 4 respondents in the 2010 UK data survey.
Obviously not a very full survey but £31K for sticking tickets on cars and getting shouted at is better than being in the Army and being shot at AND shouted at!
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Wed 2 Mar 11 at 14:45
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31k for a regular traffic warden? I find that hard to believe. As its based on 4 respondents I find it more than suspect.
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I said it was a small sample and I'll be happy for anyone to post any represntative figures, if they can find them
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NSL, who provide wardens for councils, pays up to £8.40 an hour after probation.
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Based on 40 hour week... £17.5k
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Re the Private... He also gets digs and food thrown in... how much is that worth?
As for the TW's pay, I doubt any of the higher figures quoted are anywhere near accurate and its perhaps being a bit unfair to the rest of them to quote those figures, its like saying that all Binmen get paid £45k because we know that a few did in Brum last year! £20k sounds more likely... More with overtime... now where have i heard that before!
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No they pay for food and accomm in UK and abroad they get a free tent and tinned field rations SFAIK
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Coppers do very well.
There are plenty who retire in their early 50s on a five or six figure lump sum and a pension of £1,500 a month.
And that's for lower ranks.
The money's fairly good whilst in-service, too, so they win all ends up.
The trick is to avoid getting filled in too many times whilst doing the job.
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The highest grade of private gets paid £63 per day, which isn't likely to be less than 12 hours.
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.
Last edited by: hobby on Wed 2 Mar 11 at 15:18
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>> No they pay for food and accomm in UK
How much, PP? I'm assuming its subsidized, so nowhere near real world costs... Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge them, I wouldn't do their job, but just quoting basic salaries without taking into account other perks, extra costs that other workers may have, and qualifications needed to do the job is not a fair comparison... As you will gather I'm not a fan of straight salary comparisons!
Also not everywhere when they are abroad do they live in tents...
Last edited by: hobby on Wed 2 Mar 11 at 15:24
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They also pay 11% pension contribution as well - and this will be going up soon to around 14%
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>> They also pay 11% pension contribution as well - and this will be going up
>> soon to around 14%
Also advised to pay into a Injury/death/life assurance fund for Soldiers.
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It is not possible to compare like with like! Servicemen pay something for food and accommodation and it is not a commercial rate but even the UK barracks are often in a dire state of repair and maintenance and are poor value for money at any price
The "tents" used in Afghansitan are something like this, at main bases.
tinyurl.com/5vabkpe
Out on ops and in the field the tents are what you and I understand by the word.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Wed 2 Mar 11 at 15:42
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Food isn't subsidised in the uk. Now it's about 140 a month, but not all of that goes to the mess. Accom costs between 20 and 65 a month depending on the grade. On ops or exercise both are free.
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Peculiar sort of Tory govt.
Son of Blair flexing his muscles on the international scene (have to borrow a aircraft carrier from someone), fiddling whilst our own country disintegrates...when the depth of the depression finally hits home (maybe when interest rates escalate) he might well need an on side police force...Maggie knew that, she upped their pay.
Interesting times ahead.
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Thanks Sooty... now compare that with living costs for a single bloke living on his own in this country... I would say that a Private on 19k has more disposable income than the traffic warden on similar pay living on his own... I still maintain that a straight comparison of salaries is not a fair one...
PP, I think you'll find that there are other overseas postings other than Afganistan...
PU, many other jobs also pay significant monies into their pension, and around 11% is the going rate...
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...PU, many other jobs also pay significant monies into their pension, and around 11% is the going rate...
If I had a penny for every copper who has barked '14 per cent' at me when his pension is mentioned, I would have, well, quite a few pence.
The contribution is tiny compared to the benefit.
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>> PU, many other jobs also pay significant monies into their pension, and around 11% is
>> the going rate...
>>
last official published data:
Total contributions to private (non-state) pension schemes fell at the start of the recession, from £86 billion in 2007 to £82 billion in 2008. The fall was driven by a decrease in employer contributions to funded occupational pension schemes, which fell from £37 billion in 2007 to £33 billion in 2008, as company finances came under pressure. Employer contributions to personal pensions and to unfunded (public sector) occupational pension schemes rose in 2008, but not enough to prevent a drop in total contributions.
There is a difference between employer contribution rates in private sector defined benefit (salary-related) and defined contribution (money purchase) occupational pension schemes.
In 2008, the average employer contribution rates were:
• 16.6 per cent of salary for defined benefit schemes
• 6.1 per cent of salary for defined contribution schemes
At present, employers do not have to contribute to group personal pensions (GPPs) and stakeholder pension schemes. In smaller private sector employers (less than 100 employees), 6 per cent of employees with GPPs and 14 per cent of those with stakeholder pensions received no employer contribution in 2009.
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Hobby there are other overseas postings, we still have troops in Germany and the Falklands, but nothing close to the numbers that are in Afghanistan. Sooty has kindly posted the current rates paid for food and accommodation. I agree that salary comparisons are not easy or perhaps possible. It may be worth asking how many traffic wardens have been killed on duty in the last 10 years and how many have had to give up work because of the loss of limbs, on duty. That is where the true difference lies!
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Wed 2 Mar 11 at 19:18
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>> It may be worth asking how many traffic wardens have been killed
>> on duty in the last 10 years and how many have had to give up
>> work because of the loss of limbs, on duty.
One can but dream.,
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>> It may be worth asking how many traffic wardens have been killed
>> on duty in the last 10 years and how many have had to give up
>> work because of the loss of limbs, on duty. That is where the true difference
>> lies!
>>
I have no wish for this to become a discussion on our "heroes", a word so often used these days, but to me describes my parents and their generation who had no choice but to fight... The current Forces Personnel have my respect, its not a job I'd do, but its their choice to do it, they knew the risks before they joined up... Just like members of the Fire Brigade and Police...
Last edited by: hobby on Thu 3 Mar 11 at 09:54
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Yet you bring discuss something that you have no wish to discuss...
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It was a reply to that earlier quote, Sooty, and explained where I was coming from... However I did have a think about it and reported to the Mods I'd have no objection to its removal if someone thought it caused offense... That still stands...
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Any person who joins the armed forces now, or in the last few years, knows, almost 100%, that they are off to face real danger. Its not like the relatively peaceful 60's 70's and early 80's.
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No offended in the slightest, I see where your coming from, I just thought it odd by commenting on it you're more likely to bring up the subject of our 'heroes' which you wanted to avoid.
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Hobby:
''Why, PU? There are plenty of other shift jobs where people don't get paid for re-scheduling shifts... Mine for a start! I can get moved 2 hours each way from a start time, more if they ask nicely, but I don't get paid extra for doing it unless the new shift is longer...''
Under police regs an officers start time can be moved by any amount of hours without any compensation. So if they were rostered to work a night turn tomorrow, they can be changed to an 0500 early, provided they get 11 hours rest between duties, with NO compensation.
Duties have to be published 1 month in advance but what this actually means is that the working days and rest days have to be published. The daily duty time is subject to change without notice.
Compensation payments arise when a rest day is cancelled. With less than 5 clear days notice then the day worked is payable at double time, with a minimum 4 hr payment. With notice between 5 -15 days then time and a half. Over 15 days notice there is no compensation.
Whether these payments are realistic is a matter for HM Government to decide and there won't be anything officers can do about it. It can become difficult to plan one's life when any rest day can be cancelled at short notice. Proper advance planning should prevent such rest day cancellations except in emergencies.
Police officers have no union and no bargaining power. They cannot strike or take industrial action. To even talk about taking action is a criminal offence. So you might begin to understand why some officers feel a little aggrieved when there's nothing they can do about a further erosion of conditions.
I accept, of course, that a) others may disagree that cops are becoming hard done by and b) cops are free to leave and seek alternative occupations.
Option (b) is being more regularly exercised these days, far more than at any time in my 26 years. I'm told that there's a queue to join, but the issue is what to do when they come in and go out within two years, after the training and expense, whilst older officers retire at the other end.
I'd never argue that the pension is anything less than damn good. But that's only applicable to old timers like myself. Current recruits have a defined benefit scheme that takes 35 years to achieve. Assuming someone joins at age 25, I'd wager a significant amount that they won't ever make 35 years service as a Constable or sergeant. It simply isn't a job for the over 50's. So the pension payouts have already been engineered to a position of significant reduction.
Those like myself on the old scheme are in quite a different position and I wouldn't argue that it's not a significant pension. To try and do so would be folly. But it is wholly dependant on a minor point: Achieving 30 years service. The majority of the benefit is accrued in the last ten years. If an officer has to leave through illness or injury then benefits are massively reduced as they haven't been accrued on a 'level' basis. Nor has the money been invested and is thus not reasonably transferable. So many officers feel tied to the job because it's not financially viable to leave. A private or invested scheme would offer more flexibility in this respect. I would certainly have gone some years ago had I been able to transfer a pension.
A final word on overtime: despite the reports in the press of the few officers achieving significant amounts ( generally on specialist units) most officers are hardly taking a thing. My personal budget for overtime to cover an area one sixth of one of the home counties has been spent thus: January £102, February £72. The most I've ever spent in the last 18 months is about £2000 in one month and that will have been split between a significant number of officers. I'd be the first to argue that managers need to manage the overtime budget rather better, but then I would, because I've demonstrated that it can be done. Other managers need taking to task for their spending, rather than changing the compensation payable to the individual officers when you muck around with their family life.
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Perhaps I was reading too much into the direction PP seem to be going...
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Above reply to Sooty!
Woodster, thanks for that, it seems that the Police (certainly at the lower level) needs some sort of proper "negotiating body" to prevent some of the things you have highlighted happening... 12 hours should be a minimum gap for a start, and start times should be published in plenty of time and stuck to, with only small movements allowed...
Last edited by: hobby on Thu 3 Mar 11 at 12:23
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Police Pay Review - Perky Penguin
