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Eurocrats euro crazy over Greece?
A billion is 1000 million. Or one and nine zeros.
I have recently read that the additional bailout money now being considered for Greece is about 120 billion Euro. A total figure of 200 billion Euro has been mentioned.
Let us consider the implication of 200 billion Euro.
The population of Greece in 2011 in round figures, is apparently 11 million.
So 200 billion is 18, 000 Euro for every many woman and child!
151311
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 7 Jul 15 at 10:22
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You don't help a man with impossible debts by lending him more money.
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The current bailout plans are really nothing to do with bailing out Greece... but all to do with preventing the banks that lent her money having to recognise the loans as non performing and writing them off and thus goings the way of RBS (who are owned £1 billion by Greece but chickenfeed vs the French banks).
Needless to say, urinating into the wind is more productive.
Last edited by: madf on Sat 18 Jun 11 at 20:30
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If Greece phoned the CAB - I'd have some advice for them...
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...If Greece phoned the CAB - I'd have some advice for them...
Careful, they might not let you in tomorrow.
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I think that you must be wrong about the French connection in all this, Madf.
I can't see the European Union ever being willing to help the French.
No - just doesn't happen.
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Don't you find it strange how little coverage it gets in the National news ?
A quick mention of the numbers but what of the uprising in the country itself.
As you know it's not just limited to Greece, if they get a second loan then what of Portugal, Spain and Ireland. Italy isn't exactly having an easy time of it either perhaps they'll join the party?
Of course Greece defaulting then presents France, Germany and UK banks with a headache. 33, 25 and 8 billion were the numbers I saw from each respective country if that happened.
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>> Don't you find it strange how little coverage it gets in the National news ?
>>
Not in the least, the object of propaganda maquerading as news is to tell the story the way you want it told, if that can't be done don't allow discussion.
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You old cynic gb. None of that happens in the UK, that's in the realms of the Soviet Union and the KGB. Remember the UK is an open book, transparency and all that.
Ouch ! be still my aching sides.
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>> You old cynic gb.
Oy, less of the old..:-)
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OK, turn it around. If your creditor can't pay you back, do you help yourself by lending him more money?
The trick for the lenders will be to make their first loss their least loss - there are a few other defaulters in the queue.
The best bet is if the debtholders can agree between them to extend the debt profile. If they don't hang together, they'll hang separately.
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What the Greeks need is Ed Balls, he knows all there is to know about debt and the people seem keen on furthering that state of affairs judging by their protests.
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I wonder if they've tried PFI ;-)
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or maybe they had PPI on the loans....!
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>> OK, turn it around. If your creditor can't pay you back, do you help yourself
>> by lending him more money?
>>
>> The trick for the lenders will be to make their first loss their least loss
>> - there are a few other defaulters in the queue.
>>
>> The best bet is if the debtholders can agree between them to extend the debt
>> profile. If they don't hang together, they'll hang separately.
>>
Think about it. Who are the debt holders ? It might be a bank in name but I'm pretty sure it's the tax payer who is on the hook to honour the payment. That is the pensioner, the average worker (exclude MPs and public sector workers who are at the back of the queue when it comes to pain - 10% paycuts and work until your 66 I WISH!!!! I took a 25% paycut and I am at the mercy of the Government when I can retire and what I receive) and our children and grandchildren who have been sold down the river.
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And we are paying the price for their economic mismanagement and folly.
I can see this all economic enterprice of the EEC breaking up and nations go back to their own money and live with the mistakes they make.Next thing a world goverment and we will all be slaves to a crazy system.I'm sounding like David Icke.:)
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Can someone explain me this in simple terms?
Last edited by: movilogo on Fri 24 Jun 11 at 11:48
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NO it isn't simple!
Beware, the Trojans were warned, of Greeks bearing gifts. One has to be just as careful these days of Greeks bearing bonds.
The euro 110 billion ($147 billion) bailout package announced jointly by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the eurozone countries raises more questions than it answers and, like so many of the policy responses of western governments in the past two years, may well be too little too late.
The crisis in Greece was essentially fiscal, but its implications for Greece and the eurozone countries go well beyond the purely economic. The very existence of the eurozone has come under question and the political future of the European Union (EU) is under threat.
Germany's [ Images ] dithering, for domestic political reasons, has cast a long shadow and it remains to be seen how, if not "if", the EU will survive this crisis.
The Greek debt crisis shows clearly that if the eurozone is to come out of this crisis relatively unscathed, it needs a full-time fiscal-monitoring and crisis-resolution mechanism.
Apart from better fiscal and trade policy coordination, the eurozone needs institutions that can facilitate policy coordination, rescue and bailout programmes at the region-wide level.
With the Mediterranean economy's government finances on the brink of collapse, Greece's sovereign bonds were notched down last week to junk-grade by rating agency Standard and Poor's.
The difference between the yields on German government bonds and Greek bonds (remember they are both part of the eurozone) is a stupendous six-and-a-half percentage points. Greece is a relatively small economy (about 3 per cent of the eurozone) but European banks have large holdings of Greek sovereign bonds on their balance sheets.
Besides, by virtue of its membership of the eurozone, it is considered an "advanced" economy. Thus, if the government had reneged on its obligation, the markets may have seen it as the first of its kind by an advanced economy. In short, a default by Greece would have been a big deal.
The bailout of Greece by the EU and the IMF does not end the ongoing saga in Europe. Portugal and Spain are now on the radar. Both have seen downgrades in their credit ratings last week.
If the UK has a messy election result, it too could come under a cloud. It remains to be seen how far Europe's politicians can stretch the "too big to fail" principle and convince the public in solvent economies like Germany to reach into their pockets each time a bankrupt economy passes its hat around.
Fundamentally, the fate of Greece and the other troubled Southern European economies highlights the costs and follies of using massive fiscal stimulus to pump-prime collapsing economies.
Since economies across the world followed a similar strategy to battle recession, this episode is likely to raise some uncomfortable questions about the future of the global recovery itself. This is likely to lead to enhanced risk aversion and a search for safe havens.
In the panic that came in the wake of Lehman's collapse, the US government bond market and gold emerged as these safe havens. Investors fled all "risky" asset markets, including the Indian markets, setting off a slide in the stock market and a spike in external borrowing costs for Indian borrowers.
The impact on India [ Images ] of the "Greek crisis" depends critically on whether Asia is considered to be the third safe haven this time around. It is possible to argue that the rebound in economies such as China, India and Indonesia in 2009, when the rest of the world was floundering, actually makes a strong case for safe haven status.
BS Bureau
Source:
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Thank you
Now,
Can someone explain me this in simple terms?
8o)
Last edited by: neiltoo on Fri 24 Jun 11 at 13:29
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It's very simple.
We are not paying for Greece.
They need to borrow money, and the only place to get it is via the IMF.
The IMF gets money from it's members and that means us.
So simply put, we are lending them money via the IMF
And they will pay it back.
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If they don't pay up we can always repossess them. They have good weather at least :-)
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>> So simply put, we are lending them money via the IMF
>> And they will pay it back.
>>
You jest, methinks!
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Yep, if Greece goes down the crapper they'll take the rest of Europe with them, so we can't let that happen.
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>>So simply put, we are lending them money via the IMF
There was something in the paper yesterday saying that would equate to around 14k per head of the population.
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There are three words of Greek origin now common to virtually every European language:
chaos,crisis and catastrophe
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General Crisis and Major Catastrophe.
I know them well
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Trying to cure Greece's problems by chucking more wonga at them, is like trying to cure an alcoholic by giving him more alcohol.
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>Yep, if Greece goes down the crapper they'll take the rest of Europe with them, so we can't let that happen.>
Oh yes we can!
Last edited by: Roger on Fri 24 Jun 11 at 16:32
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Can we just not kick them out of the EU and let them get on with it? Unlike Ireland I can't imagine we do that much business with Greece.
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Rattle this has nothing to do with the EU it's the Euro that's the problem. They could remain in the EU and not have the Euro. Indeed they should never have joined it.
By 2013 most think Greece will not be part of the Euro although the Maastricht treaty says you cannot leave the Euro once you join it.
What will happen is they will have the new Drachma, convert all debts to the Drachma and then devalue it immediately. They will then effectively owe everyone less.
They cannot hope to repay all of this money over the next few years. It's huge compared to their GDP and the cuts are costing jobs and therefore reducing income tax even more (and benefits being paid).
The ECB is just buying time - hence the term 'kicking the can down the road'.... eventually the end of the road will be reached.
I just hope air traffic controllers in Greece don't joint the 48 hour strike. I'm off the Greece on Wednesday!
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>>>Yep, if Greece goes down the crapper they'll take the rest of Europe with them, so we can't let that happen.>
Oh yes we can!<<
Estoy de acuerdo con lo que dijiste!
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All these people a few years back who were telling us we would be finished if we didn't join the Euro.
They've gone very quiet, haven't they?
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We didn't join the Euro because we could not meet the entry criteria. Some other countries cheated and now we are all paying the price.
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>> We didn't join the Euro because we could not meet the entry criteria.
Actually, the UK was doing very well in the 1990's and was a better candidate to join than all but a handfull of others. The real reason was that Tony Blair wanted to join, so Gordon Brown setup his "5 conditions" which he could argue were not met in order to thwart his enemy in New Labour.
>> Some other countries cheated and now we are all paying the price.
Absolutely correct. Politics overrode economics. The idea that we are all one big European family and everyone should be allowed to join led to wholesale fiddling of the books in order to meet the criteria of membership. (The EU is no stranger to such practices, of course)
Naturally, EU fanatics are using the Greek crisis to argue that what is required is MORE EU integration as an answer to the problem.
Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of a united Europe - but the EU is just about the worst way of achieving it. It's utterly vile. (Try reading "The Great Deception: The Secret History of the European Union")
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We aren't European - we are British!
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A Cock Knee eh! 'ave you seen the Doctor? They can do wonders now you know.
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>>A Cock Knee eh! 'ave you seen the Doctor? They can do wonders now you know<<
Tell that to my f-i-l who needs a knew nee (and a gnu cock) but the elf service tells him no-chance,
£10,500 @ the Nuffield :(
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>> COCK KNEE ere.
You'll be excused shorts then.
Saves the ladies swooning... :-)
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Seems the only people who think Greece will stay afloat or pay anything back are the eurocrats.
Which begs the question, if its gonna happen, why keep them afloat and prolong the agony.
Greek people seem to be keen to have finanacial ruin judging by their protesting, I say let the people have what they want.
The problems of co-dependancy are never more stark when some blinking country many have never been to is poised to bring down a continent, or so I read many times over.
It appears that Greece cannot be allowed to fail, but it seems almost certain it cant pay the money back, so presumably everyone else will continue pouring money in with no end in sight - the surest way to plug a leak isnt to continue pouring more water through it, but then im no economist :-)
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Sorry old chap "English" isn't actually a nationality I'm afraid. Scottish is or indeed Welsh as they do have their own parliaments but England isn't technically a country. It would need an autonomous parliament to qualify as one by the standards of measurement set to qualify for entry to the United Nations for example.
Bit of a self-inflicted wound during all that aquisitive empire building period I'm afraid chaps but there it is. Might as well say you're "Devonian" for all it means internationally.
Not particularly entitled to your own football team, rugby side or indeed your flag either anymore but for ceremonial purposes and to avoid embarrassment they're tolerated.
Don't lose all hope you can at least claim "Britishness" if nothing else...
Toodle Pip...
:-)
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Very good Humph, very good indeed. Probably no need for you to venture south of YOUR border then.
BTW are we English still financing your lot?
Bye for now. M.
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Think of it as reparation
:-)
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Come the revolution the jocks, micks and taffs can all revert back to poverty caves and tribal sacrifices
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You still in Wales then? Anyone see what you're posting? Just wondered...
:-)
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>> You still in Wales then? Anyone see what you're posting? Just wondered...
>>
>> :-)
Yeah but it's ok, they no speaka da English here.
Making a break for the border tomorrow.
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I've just seen the met office radar image for Wales.
Shame :(
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In simple terms this EU experiment aint working.Greece Portugal Spain who next.?
Oh well free holidays to Greece and free booze from Ireland we own these countrys now.
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>> I've just seen the met office radar image for Wales.
>>
>> Shame :(
It started raining here at 3pm. This is the first day we have been affected by rain
Every other day has been bright and dry with rain At night. Summit of snowdon was clouded in tho. Been very lucky.
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>>Been very lucky.<<
Just as well you didn't come to Cornwall then :(
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>> Think of it as reparation
>>
>> :-)
>>
STAY THERE. Gonna look it up. Pair of what you say?.......... :-)
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>> The real reason was that Tony Blair wanted to join, so Gordon Brown setup his "5 conditions"
I was thinking the reason we did not join started when we had to leave the ERM. Jolly good that we did :-)
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>> I was thinking the reason we did not join started when we had to leave
>> the ERM. Jolly good that we did :-)
>>
I agree with you rtj.
from Wikipedia (usual warnings apply)
"The United Kingdom entered the ERM in October 1990, but was forced to exit the programme within two years after the pound sterling came under major pressure from currency speculators, including George Soros. The ensuing crash of 16 September 1992 was subsequently dubbed "Black Wednesday". There has been some revision of attitude towards this event given the UK's strong economic performance since 1992, with some commentators dubbing it "White Wednesday".["
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George Soros not his real name made a billion dollars in one day by short selling the pound.
A recession in the UK followed.This was under a Conservative Government.Mind you Labour didn't do much better.The more things change the more things stay the same.
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I see that there is talk about auditing the UK banks to see what their exposure is.
Very difficult to do, I think.
Simple to figure out how much direct Greek debt the banks hold, but much more difficult to know how much is held by third parties, and foresee the domino effect.
A strong echo of the banking crisis, when the bank didn't really understand the mortgage debt they had.
With debt repackaged into various different investments and then derivatives traded against those investments, it was probably almost impossible to figure out true exposure, and it is probably the same now.
The Germans are sweating a bit though...
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This will all likely roll on for a couple of years whilst everyone with exposure builds up funds so that the impact of a default is minimised. It has to happen and if it happens now it will be bad. If it happens in the future it might not be so bad.
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Why Britain needs to pay for Greece?
Because we have no choice, that's us by the way the working taxpayer, forget banks and the confusing financial terms (quantative easing, what rot, printing more worthless paper money) used to throw the proletariat off the scent, it's not a UK choice, if its EU policy we have no say.
If the banks can't manage it we'll just borrow some more money to throw around, still makes a change from borrowing billions to give to other economically sound countries, India China et all.
When the figures don't add up, surprisingly, we'll just borrow a bit more, and on it goes.
The beauty of all this ever inceasing borrowing is that when the tallyman's collector calls, those responsible will be living the life of reilly making millions for themselves, no one takes responsibility any more, it's always the fault of the previous govt, which is no different in real terms from the present.
Our politicians signed us up to this EU farce, and successive govts since Heath have committed us ever closer, with Lisbon ratifying and looping together all previous agreements.
That's it by the way, Lisbon means game over, no going back.
I hope those who embrace the EU got enough dosh out of it to be worth it, our children will be paying back for all of their lives, assuming they are honourable net contributors and not more hangers on suckling at the EU milk dispensary.
If you wrote a novel around the farce that is the EU, no one would believe it, fact stranger than fiction.
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Fine anti EU rhetoric there G. Slight flaw in your argument tho.
Being in the EU isn't the cause of the problems in Greece.
We in the UK would still have to help to bail them out even if we were not in the EU under our international obligations to the IMF
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Its people what matter Zero in my opinion.Are we paying the price of speculators causing unrest and misery.A united europe in principal would be a good idea wouldn't it?
Two world wars from Europe and how many people killed in these wars.
We are no different as people no matter which country we live in.We all need food housing and a decent quality of live.Iam more worried about the Middle East how much of our taxpayers money is going to leaders who are killing there own people.
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>> We in the UK would still have to help to bail them out even if
>> we were not in the EU under our international obligations to the IMF
Like other EU Euro countries, Greece has been living the high life on lashings of dosh from Brussells, with ne'er a hope of ever paying it back, unless borrowing borrowed money to pay a loan off is the new 'clearing your debts'.
This whole EU con is a sorry mess, it's fast turning into a bigger charity than the UK, it's always been easy to spend or give away someone else's money...coming out of decision makers own pockets or should they ever have long term performance related pay, there'd be a different story.
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There is a degree of confusion as to where the bail out funds are coming from;
The IMF - The UK will participate under their intentional obligations as Zero says. Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU
The EU - The UK will not be participating in this much larger loan at least that is what the Government are currently saying although there is some pressure from other members on the UK to contribute.
It should be born in mind that the UK itself benefitted from a large IMF loan in 1973.
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"It should be born in mind that the UK itself benefitted from a large IMF loan in 1973."
Yes, but it was well known that we would be able to pay it back since North Sea oil was due to come on-line three years later. How is Greece going to pay this money back? It won't, default in a controlled way is inevitable in my view. The hope is that by 'kicking the can down the road', the excrement won't hit the fan until the Eurozone is hopefully in better shape to weather the fallout.
I would tell Greece a rather less polite version of 'go away'.
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They should sell off some islands to squillionaires. I'd buy one if I had enough money. How cool would that be?
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How cool would that be?
>>
Hopefully not at all.:-)
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Heh heh - Yeah but you could appoint yourself King or whatever. Abolish speed limits and licensing laws etc. Ban anyone with tattoos or football jerseys or men with earrings, anything you liked really.
Deeply cool !
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Can we not lend them with some security?
For example if they cannot pay us back, then we shall own Crete or Santorini. If you cannot pay your mortgage bank owns your house. How it is different from that?
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If Greece can't pay it's way then that isn't very good collateral really...
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None of this "If Greece can't pay".
It can't. Period...
And not only "can't" but "won't". See riots..
"Greece has defaulted or rescheduled its debt five times since gaining independence in 1829, the economists wrote in their paper “This Time Is Different,” published in 2008 and recently expanded into a book. ....."
blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2010/04/26/default-and-greece-historys-judgment/
This time will be the same... the muppets who lend money to people who cannot repay need to learn some time...
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>> This time will be the same... the muppets who lend money to people who cannot
>> repay need to learn some time...
they have learned, they have learned its cheaper than war.
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What they have learned over the past 30 years is that Governments ALWAYS bail out banks . period.
See Lloyds.. in the 1980s Latin American loans..
The 1970s Secondary Banking Crisis.
The US Savings and Loans shambles.
I saw that Conrad Black is getting a net 4 years for embezzlement of what now is a charge reduced from $6 million to $600k. On that basis , the leaders of most UK and US banks should be in jail till 2250.
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Stuff em.
I've been self employed since I was 18yo, paid shedloads of tax & NI, got zilch from the state, and am heartlily sick of bailing people out through my hard work. And that includes all the UK banks that i now co-own. If I ever met some of these pfd I would happily give them a good kicking. With a queue behind me.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 28 Jun 11 at 00:56
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you guys have absolutely no idea of the sh ite you would be in if the banks failed, self employed or not.
Well in truth you would just be self. Employment wouldn't come into it.
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>> you guys have absolutely no idea of the sh ite you would be in if
>> the banks failed, self employed or not.
I think people know that really, Zero.
In fact, technically, they have failed already in many countries.
People are just intensely frustrated - as I suspect you are - that leaders of the worlds most powerful banks have taken unseemly risks again and again over the years, and that this time these risks have backfired to the near ruin of the world economic system, whilst making sure that their own nests were well and truly feathered.
They have done all this with the full collusion of their chums in political class, who know that the taxpayers will be forced to pick up the tab.
What we are angry about is the size of the tab this time, and the feeling that nobody in any position of power really knows how to stop this tab from getting bigger. One gets the fear that the crisis is like a balloon which can only get so big before it pops . . .with terrible consequences.
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The consequences are so terrible that the ballon must never be allowed to pop.
Trouble is the balloon inflators know it.
What would happen if Greece went bust? Military coup probably, small Helvetian war possibly, riots on the streets, people shot. Thats the most likely local scenario.
No effect on us you think?
Ireland would go bust, because their credit would snap shut. Now that would effect us! big time.
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Whenever ,therefore,people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth,
It is clear that the error has slid into their minds.
Through the medium of certain resemblances to that truth.
Socrates.
When will we find the truth when we are surrounded by lies?
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>> No effect on us you think?
I never said anything of the sort.
Good grief, Zero, you do like to create your straw men!
>> Trouble is the balloon inflators know it.
I know what you mean - related to the "too big to be allowed to fail" argument. True, but they can't put two fingers up at the taxpayers forever, even the taxpayers are not a bottomless pit of money to keep bailing them out.
>> ...small Helvetian war possibly....
What? Switzerland dragged in? (Just pulling your leg)
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>> >> No effect on us you think?
>> I never said anything of the sort.
>> Good grief, Zero, you do like to create your straw men!
It was a metaphorical, musing, general populous "you" in "you think"
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Fair enough!
I don't know about you but I feel that some people just don't get how inter-connected the world is. The "Let the Greeks go bust" attitude is reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain's famous utterance on the Czechoslovakian crisis in 1938.
"How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing."
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"small Helvetian war "
Are they going to fight the Swiss then? After the bankers I suppose, or did you mean hellenic?
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>> "small Helvetian war "
>>
>> Are they going to fight the Swiss then? After the bankers I suppose, or did
>> you mean hellenic?
Yeah I did, tho it turned out to be a Freudian slip.
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It's all very well propping up te Greeks - and the Portugese and teh spanish and the Irish etc.. IF and ONLY if it stops a major worldwide crisis worst than the last.
The busts are getting bigger and the next one is coming I suspect come what may. I can see no way politicians will be able to bail out banks again: bankers have shown by their recent actions they have learned nothing .
PPI insurance anyone?
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/11315857/Greek-failure-in-presidential-vote-sends-markets-into-turmoil-as-election-triggered.html
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/29/greece-crisis-president-snap-election
>>
>> So Greece is back in the news, where do we think this one is going?
Oh wow. just like the last time the woe is me merchants were out - Its going nowhere, the EU will not collapse, the euro will not disappear, the world will not stop spinning etc etc
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Yes, I've been trying to remember the last time a Greek snap election caused earth's foundations to tremble. Was it when Agamemnon lost the run-off to Creon? Honestly these political dynasties, tsk!
A good couple of years ago anyway. Perhaps three or four even.
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>>I've been trying to remember the last time a Greek snap election caused earth's foundations to tremble.
Such things cause the media and its sheep to tremble, not any real foundations.
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John Travolta WILL shag Olivia Newton-John?
Its the word that you've heard.
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Ok, the school boy responses out of the way, any intelligent comments, perhaps on whether Syriza have the answer?
I would have thought those of the Leftist direction would be atleast interested from a political point of view at what an anti-austerity party may be able to do if it gains power.
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Is an anti austerity party the same as a spend a lot of money you don't have and hope someone will bail you out party?
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>>Is an anti austerity party the same as a spend a lot of money you don't have and hope someone will bail you out party?<<
If I understand Syriza policy correctly it is to only pay half of it back, the anti-austerity parties tend to follow the bailout after 'magic money tree' party that spends the money is booted out.
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"John Travolta WILL shag Olivia Newton-John?"
Sure? www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2014/09/17/john-travolta-speaks-out-on-gay-allegations/
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 29 Dec 14 at 16:17
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28% Adult unemployement and 58%Youngsters out of work.
Reading some reports people will only be pushed so far.
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Leave the Eu, leave the Euro, default on Govt debts - low value drachma and fingers crossed.
Lowish drachma = lots of bargain hunting tourists, some jobs.......going the current way they are heading nowhere except increasing debts they cannot service
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"Lowish drachma = lots of bargain hunting tourists, some jobs.......going the current way they are heading nowhere except increasing debts they cannot service"
As most of the debts are to Greek banks, expect more crises.. self induced. Huge bank bailouts or a totally bankrupt country.
Of course, what they really want is more EU loans without having to ever repay anything...ever..
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>>
>> Of course, what they really want is more EU loans without having to ever repay
>> anything...ever..
>>
That money is earmarked / spoken for for MEP and EU Bureaucrat Pensions
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They didn't teach me this in school. Knowing nothing of this period, any comments from those here who do actually know something about British military history? Because it doesn't make me feel that good as presented.
www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/30/athens-1944-britains-dirty-secret
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I don't know period either but war is a nasty business.
As I've said before it's only in last year, two years into the Syrian uprising and twelve years after Iraq invasion, that we've identified ISIS as a separate group and definitely 'baddies'.
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True enough. I only read about it recently..Max Hastings' book on Churchill...another place where we left a right mess.
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>> True enough. I only read about it recently..Max Hastings' book on Churchill...another place where we
>> left a right mess.
Greece? left a mess? don't think so. First off the war in Greece was the messiest of all the battlefronts in Europe. Differing groups of partisans, some pro axis, some pro allies, some pro communist and some just bandits - all of them frequently swapped sides so you were never sure who was who. The russians infiltrated the place and had spies everywhere, so did the germans, so did the brits, and the italians thought they did. It was never going to be an easy place to make stable after the war, and Churchill was determined it would not fall to the communist block, being a key part of the med.
Yes we did some nasty things in the war, not at all the gents we were supposed to be, bombarding the french fleet and killing loads of french sailors for example, and of course there was the firestorms on German cities. But hey we won, the victors never get prosecuted or persecuted.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 7 Mar 15 at 20:18
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>> Greece? left a mess? don't think so. First off the war in Greece was the
>> messiest of all the battlefronts in Europe. Differing groups of partisans, some pro axis, some
>> pro allies, some pro communist and some just bandits - all of them frequently swapped
>> sides so you were never sure who was who. The russians infiltrated the place and
>> had spies everywhere, so did the germans, so did the brits, and the italians thought
>> they did. It was never going to be an easy place to make stable after
>> the war, and Churchill was determined it would not fall to the communist block, being
>> a key part of the med.
With appropriate substitutions that sounds remarkably like the Levant today.
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>> With appropriate substitutions that sounds remarkably like the Levant today.
>
Nothing is new, but it always catches us unprepared.
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Sometimes there isn't a right answer. Especially without the benefit of hindsight. All that can be done is to make a decision and make it work.
I doubt if I would have liked Churchill much if I had met him, or he me for that matter. But he who makes a lot of decisions is going to make a few mistakes, and you can't argue with the final score given the general consensus on the odds at the time.
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Churchill insisted on Greece being in the British sphere of influence after the war....the result was an unholy mess....a mess that is still a mess now.
www.coldwar.org/articles/40s/GreekCivilWar1945-1949.asp
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>> Churchill insisted on Greece being in the British sphere of influence after the war....the result
>> was an unholy mess....a mess that is still a mess now.
>> www.coldwar.org/articles/40s/GreekCivilWar1945-1949.asp
Of course he did, anything else was unthinkable then and is unthinkable now. Think how much of a mess there would have been in Greece was in the soviet block, the whole of the eastern med would have been a soviet sphere of influence with control of the suez canal.
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I do know something about this, or used to, having translated from French Dominique Eudes's Trotskyist-leaning book The Kapetanios, covering the civil war in Greece. A fascinating account, not notably pro-British (or pro-Soviet or pro-American to be fair).
Later met a lady peripherally involved. It was all within living memory. People were being maimed and murdered for ideological reasons.
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>> The Kapetanios, covering the civil war in Greece. A fascinating account, not notably pro-British (or pro-Soviet or pro-American to be fair).
In fact the struggles of the Greek left and right have persisted into the present day, with the same families turning out prominent players over the years.
I would really recommend The Kapetanios. It's ideologically biased, but in a completely open way. Otherwise, it's very well-researched and very informative about the Greek factions and their foreign backers. Prices on Amazon vary wildly, but it's possible Verso/NLB still has copies.
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>> But hey we won, the victors never get prosecuted or persecuted.
>>
Are you sure we won? Who runs Europe these days?
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Lot's of things they don't teach you in school.True history is one of them.Does it matter its'all in the past.Most countries have skeletons in the cupboards they don't want to talk about.
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>True history is one of them.
>>
True history is bunk.
Truth depends on what angle you are looking at it from, and who your audience is.
Zero is right. Britain (ie Churchill) shouldered the entire burden of keeping Greece free from communism, in the dismal years before the US grew up and recognised the danger from Russia.
Fortunately Stalin was, curiously, a man of his word, and didn't intervene to support the Greek communists.
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>>Who runs Europe these days?
The crouts sprouts in Brussels.
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............and then in the mix we have the Greek's sworn foes - the Turks, yes - the ones Boris Johnson wants in the E.U.
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>> ............and then in the mix we have the Greek's sworn foes - the Turks, yes
>> - the ones Boris Johnson wants in the E.U.
Turkey is a key location, the locked door to east/west. You really don't want that key to be fully communist or islamic.
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Eurocrats euro crazy over Greece? - Manatee
