M's old man would never treat himself to an expensive tool and he's just built us a cracking new garage roof. He's using a (battle hardened!) Lidl's battery drill / driver but the battery's are slow to charge and fast to discharge.
I'd like to get him something that he'd appreciate. Budget around the £250-£300 mark. What would the panel recommend?
As far as i can tell he mostly uses the drill for driving in screwnails. Have tried asking indirectly what he'd prefer but the only answers i get are along the lines of "i saw a great black and decker at the car boot sale last weekend".
|
Nearly all the pro's i know use Makita's, in most cases they get thrown in a pile with all the other stuff, so builder proof as well as good at the job.
Hopefully Martin will see this thread and point the way.
|
A so-called professional quality Makita looks a bit over-specified to me.
Eighteen volts seems about right, the 12v drills are a bit weedy - I have one.
Dad says he likes Black and Decker, their stuff is well thought of these days, so how about:
tinyurl.com/3dh5qd6
|
|
£82 on Fleabay but no sparae battery included.
|
I think first of all we need to determine if he wants
1. A cordless impact driver. This will usually have a half inch square drive.
2. An SDS cordless drill.
3. A cordless drill with hammer action.
4. A cordless drill.
5. An electric screwdriver.
|
>> 1. A cordless impact driver. This will usually have a half inch square drive.
No, but i'm finding the name confusing - there appears to be 2 different types of product with the name "cordless impact driver". Not ruling out the type that takes a screwdriver bit.
>> 2. An SDS cordless drill.
No
>> 3. A cordless drill with hammer action.
Possibly
>> 4. A cordless drill.
Yep
>> 5. An electric screwdriver.
Possibly
|
He's a joiner to trade but due to lack of work, currently working in a factory making flat pack conservatories.
Makita and Dewalt are names i recognise. I've a feeling 18v (li-ion for the better charge / discharge cycle) is the minimum but looking on youtube videos, can't help but wonder if 36v isn't the way forward.
Is an impact screwdriver worthwhile? What are the advantages? Wiki doesn't give much, only says not to think the impact means a downward force into the screw, yet other sites list impact screwdrivers as being great for reducing fatigue. Confused...
Stumbled across autofeed screwdrivers, that might be an idea.
|
Dog's link put me on to this theme - www.amazon.co.uk/Makita-BHP452RFE-Combi-Li-ion-Batteries/dp/B001K2YBBG/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1315091485&sr=1-1
Leaning towards this now - lightweight (~1.6kg), powerful (32/50nm vs. 11nm for his current one), 22 mins charge time and the batteries seem pretty heavy duty anyway from google reviews.
|
I've also come across different definitions of the term 'impact' in the context of drivers.
My understanding is the application is 'metal on metal' - a bolt, or a machine or set screw, or, of course, a nut.
So impact is more for automotive or engineering, than building.
On that reasoning, dad wants what is called a combi drill/driver, such as the linked Makita ones.
I wonder if a £250 Makita is so much better than a £100 Black and Decker.
But I like Snap-on hand tools, and it seems Makita - and possibly Die Walt - is the driver equivalent.
Two batteries is a good idea, the tool should last dad for years, but a single battery may not.
|
Most of the Dewalt stuff is just overpriced dressed up chinese junk. Sure, they're chunky and heavy, and get plenty of advertising on TV shops, but inside there's chinese bearings and switches.
Makita has always been good stuff, but not sure now. The real true properly built stuff is Festool - 3yr warranty, spares, accessories - but may be overkill.
|
...Most of the Dewalt stuff is just overpriced dressed up chinese junk...
I'd heard something similar, although at one time DeWalt was supposed to be top quality.
|
Amazing innit - I've always bought B & D believing (for some reason) that they were British,
But with the click o'the mouse I find they're from 'over there',
Back to Bosch then (for me) I'ma gonna go and what The Badger on Andrew Marr @ 9am in disgust!
|
Skoda - if you're quick B&Q are doing a deal on Makita 18V 8391D cordless drill/drivers for £99. I've just bought one and have to say it's superb - just drove some screws into my allotment shed that I couldn't do by hand a year ago. They were doing the same deal on the equivalent DeWalts but looks like they've all gone.
www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=10798552
Last edited by: corax on Sun 4 Sep 11 at 09:09
|
|
Black and Decker bought out Dewalt some time ago. Proably about the same time as the Dewalt quality went down. Bosch still seem to make decent stuff, as long as you buy 'blue'. 'Green' is the consumer stuff. They also don't seem to change their battery design every 2 minutes, as well.
|
B&D used to be produced somewhere uo Iffy's way. Factory closed and production offshored 7-9 yrs ago?
Never rated their kit that well though even when still made in UK. Drill, paint stripper gun and basic electric screwdriver all died young. The replacement Bosch kit works better and lasts longer - and that's just te green stuff.
|
I still use the old blue B & D drill that I bought in the 80's (or earlier), it died quite soon after buying it, so I took it to their service centre in Streatham (London) and it's been as good as gold since then,
it will cope with Cornish Granite no prob.
I also have a B & D leaf blow/vac, which I bought to replace the previous old B & D jobbie that I bought about 8 years ago which was working fine when I binned it.
I bought a B & D hedge trimmer a couple of years ago - absolute carp, so I sent it back!
Gorn 'overseas' ave they? ... say n'more.
|
The Black and Decker factory was just off the old A1 at Spennymoor, County Durham.
It more or less closed in 2002, although the factory shop and a few other bits and pieces remained until relatively recently.
At the moment the site is being developed as a business park and hotel.
The building and associated works is causing regular traffic jams at the junction nearby, known locally as the Thinford roundabout.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2295301.stm
|
|
Some years ago I worked for a company called PSM fasteners in Willenhall. I seem to remember visiting a B&D place somewhere in Cambridgeshire/Norfolk way, and trying to flog their design guys some threaded inserts and self tapping screws. It wasn't County Durham, as I've never been there - too far up north for me.
|
These are impact drivers, not what you would want for driving screws.
tinyurl.com/3wva6zf
|
I seem to remember being lambasted for suggesting using an impact driver for driving in screws, with various people saying that they were a waste of time.
Let me repeat once again, speaking as a professional user, if you are driving in screws, week in, week out, get yourself a cordless impact driver. Mine is a Makita with just plain old nickel cadmium batteries and is capable of driving in any size screw up to the maximum I use which is 4 inch. It will drive in a 4inch screw into softwood without a pilot hole with ease.
The torque/size ratio is amazing and will beat a drill/driver into oblivion.
Makita have just brought out a new range of lithium ion in white and black, they really are superb.
My advice is to go to a proper tool seller and ask them to demonstrate one. When you have used one once, you will never be without one.
No doubt Zero and Martin Devon will be along soon to tell you the're rubbish.
Ignore them and go and try one.
Dont confuse these with impact wrenches which have a 1/2 inch drive for sockets.
Look Here
www.makitauk.com/products/front/?id=2115
|
BTW, cordless drills with hammer action are next to useless for drilling into stone/ brick as the hammer action is basically "bump and grind" and just make noise.
The only tool for making holes in stone and brick is an SDS drill with pneumatic action, anything else is an amateurs toy.
|
>The only tool for making holes in stone and brick is an SDS drill with pneumatic action, >anything else is an amateurs toy.
The 15mm hole I drilled through my wall with a non SDS drill to bring in the satelite aeriial must be a figment of my imagination then,
And the one I did in my mums house.
|
The bricks in your house are probably made of Southern crumbly cheese.
Try that on York stone or hard bricks and your drill will probably end up as a smoking wreck.
You may think that you are the font of all knowledge but try to understand and accept that just sometimes, other people have more experience than you.
|
Didn't you once post a picture of your house wall and wasn't it crumbly brick over rendered breezeblock ?
|
>> Didn't you once post a picture of your house wall
yes
>>and wasn't it crumbly brick over rendered breezeblock ?
No?
|
>> The bricks in your house are probably made of Southern crumbly cheese.
Oh I see! Its because I have uniquely soft walls, In two different houses no less.
>> Try that on York stone or hard bricks and your drill will probably end up
>> as a smoking wreck.
>>
>> You may think that you are the font of all knowledge but try to understand
>> and accept that just sometimes, other people have more experience than you.
But it was based on experience, a fact actually.
Now listen to this experience. Take a fairly normal household DIY toolbox, one where a drill is mostly used to drill 7mm holes 40mm/60 mm deep in brickwork for raw plugs. An SDS drill is heavy, difficult to handle, and overkill for such situations. The fact a normal bump and grind hammer drill CAN drill holes through most normal house constructed walls makes a normal hammer drill ideal for home use, why would I lash out on another expensive drill, when its not required.
Given your fetish to beat things through wood and stone, I suggest you invest in a decent hammer. As you like them big and strong and noisy and macho I suggest a roadmenders pneumatic drill is all you need.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 4 Sep 11 at 21:42
|
Zero old chap, its called a Rawl plug, not a raw plug.
Like I said, its an amateurs toy !
|
>> Zero old chap, its called a Rawl plug, not a raw plug.
>>
>> Like I said, its an amateurs toy !
>>
You are sounding like a patronising professional know it all.
|
Nope, just a professional, trying to give out good advice to somebody who asked at the top of this thread.
Others on here, who are in fact amateurs, (which is not meant to be derogatory) are rubbishing this advice, just (IMO) because they THINK they know better on very limited experience.
|
I've often drilled holes in Granite over the last 15 years with my 1980's B & D 'bump & grind' drill,
I'd luv to buy a nice new Bosch SDS jobbie, but wont until old faithful dies, and there is no sign of that yet.
|
How many, how big, how deep, where was the "granite" and how long did it take you.
|
>>How many, how big, how deep, where was the "granite" and how long did it take you<<
I've lived in 2 granite built properties up on the moors of Cornwall and my trusty rusty B & D hammer drill is all I've ever used, obviously I'm talking DIY, I don't drill holes everyday :)
Incidentally, I enquired about a new multi fual stove recently, and the bod that came here to price the job reckons he would have to cut a 5 inch hole through my 2 ft. thick solid granite wall for ventilation
what on earth would he use (I wonder) to do that job.
|
|
he would use a core drill, he might even hire a wet diamond core drill?
|
>>he would use a core drill, he might even hire a wet diamond core drill?<<
I knocked the idea on the head in the end, I'll see how my present stove copes in the ice age, and I may go in for a refurb Rayburn next year
|
>> >>How many, how big, how deep, where was the "granite" and how long did it
>> take you<<
>>
>> I've lived in 2 granite built properties up on the moors of Cornwall and my
>> trusty rusty B & D hammer drill is all I've ever used, obviously I'm talking
>> DIY, I don't drill holes everyday :)
>>
>> Incidentally, I enquired about a new multi fual stove recently, and the bod that came
>> here to price the job reckons he would have to cut a 5 inch hole
>> through my 2 ft. thick solid granite wall for ventilation
>> what on earth would he use (I wonder) to do that job.
>>
How many k/W would the fire put out? (sic). Under 5 (I think) it is there is no requirement for it's own air supply.
|
>>How many k/W would the fire put out? (sic). Under 5 (I think) it is there is no requirement for it's own air supply<<
8kw Martin ~ www.charnwood.com/range/stove/island-ii.aspx
Better example ~ www.woodstockfires.co.uk/charnwood/charnwoodIslandII.asp
Last edited by: Dog on Mon 5 Sep 11 at 08:36
|
I have yet to come across anything a hammer drill will not penetrate at DIY speed with a sharp masonry bit.
I am sure the "professionals" use overkill to save time (money).
|
|
Try an engineering brick.
|
|
Houses are not made of engineering bricks, houses are made of house bricks. I thought you were a pro?
|
Yes, and you clearly are not.
|
If my green Bosch mains hammer drill has bitten off more than it can chew, so have I.
|
I have little or no time for Impact drivers. They are NOT required for driving in screws and if one thinks they are then one is wrong. If a screw cannot be driven home by a Battery screwdriver then one needs to make a pilot hole. A lot of screws nowadays are not of a brilliant quality and all an impact driver will serve to do is weaken them.
Of all of the drills that I would buy now at bargain basement level would be an older generation makita 12v Ni-cad powered drill/driver (often offered in a huge case with a plethora of accessories) for between £99.00 and £150.00.
For a 'serious' purchase I have kitted out mainly with Bosch. Try and look for either a run out model 14.4 or 18 volt Nimh powered drill driver or Combi (which is a non SDS hammer drill too), but is useless on really hard stuff, new bit or not. Lithium is expensive and can be temperamental. Nimh stuff is heavy and my 18v combi is a pain after an hour or more of continuous work.
The market is, as all markets are, overwhelming in the choice department and drives us all mad.
One thing we are prone to forget is that a 240v jobby plugged into someone else's electricity is a wonderful piece of machinery and often at a third of the price of Battery stuff.
Your night time Tool report from Devon........Yours knackered and orf up the wooden hill.
|
You got a point Mr Tee.House I used to live in was engineering brick.Daughters house she just bought pre war also engineering brick they used to make them to last.
My house 27 years old the soft brick breeze blocks inside.Different kettle of fish drilling a hole in engineering bricks.I'm only a amateur.:)
|
Many thanks everyone, order now placed for a Makita BHP452RFWX 18V Li-ion Celebration Combi Drill & extra battery. Jeezo that's as long a name as any fancy computer kit.
Trying to work out the code names was a lesson in itself.
BHP - Combi Drill
452 - Model
RF X - With battery and charger
W - Anniversary special edition (with a nifty hard case)
... i think!
Last edited by: Skoda on Mon 5 Sep 11 at 06:40
|
>> More here, including a video of it battering a hole in concrete:
No it didn't, its not an SDS drill so it cant do that.
|
I understand an SDS drill would be much stronger but for his usage i think it'd just be extra weight to hold mostly.
The combi drill was the same price, and near enough the same weight as the drill driver and he did mention an old drill he liked had the hammer action.
The impact driver, i can understand MrTee's like of them and if i were in his shoes i reckon i'd be having one too. They're pretty impressive on the videos.
On balance though, what MD said about pilot holes probably makes more sense for M's old man's usage because with the impact version you need to use impact rated bits and i can just imagine the cursing and swearing the first time he put a lidl's bit in the chuck and the drill lunched it.
Last edited by: Skoda on Mon 5 Sep 11 at 09:21
|
...you need to use impact rated bits...
Martin also made a good point about screws.
A lot of mine seem to be made of chocolate - my Ryobi 12v driver twists off the heads easily.
So you need top quality screws to go with an impact driver.
For this reason, I still reckon impact is more appropriate for nuts and bolts.
Unless someone can tell me where I can get a good screw?
|
Regardless of the subsequent flannel on the subject, I have to second that.
Many years ago I owned a 1930s house constructed of some sort of high-density block with brick cladding. The sort of place that's the reason they sell those "hard wall picture hooks". Yer traditional hammer drill would do nothing but blunt masonry bits.
I eventually gave up, went out and bought a nice Bosch SDS plus rotary hammer. Hot knife through cheese to that stuff it was.
Roll on some years and I now find myself in a house constructed of reinforced concrete with brick cladding. Fairly standard continental construction. That Bosch rotary hammer is a godsend again.
What I have found is that once you have a proper rotary hammer, you'll never want to use a hammer drill again. Even on softer stuff that a conventional hammer drill will cope with, the rotary hammer is so much quicker and easier to use. Also swapping bits is quicker and SDS bits seem to last forever as far as I can make out, leastways I'm still using the ones I bought with it all those years ago.
Bonus: It came with some chisel bits and doubles as a Kango for light work.
|
Gift Idea - Best Elec (Impact?) Driver - Dog
