www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14556347
Pehaps, just perhaps, if this is spelt out to youngsters it might make a few have a think about their actions.
I was not aware of all the effects.
|
|
It won't because most of them won't get caught and they equate being caught with something being wrong! They haven't got the leap of morality where the action itself is right or wrong regardless of whether someone else finds out.
|
Very interesting article Herr henry, I was born at The Borough BTW,
I'm not saying college student Nicolas Robinson shouldn't be punished but, for a petty crime like that to affect his future employment is pretty sad IMO, yes I know theft is theft, and he should have thought of that beforehand etc.,
If it was his 1st offence and of previous 'good behaviour' he should be given at least a chance at making good, if he gets a criminal record and so finds it hard to nail down a decent job - what good is that gonna do for society.
|
...I was born at The Borough...
Clink Street?
|
>>Clink Street?<<
LOL! .. Nice drop of Directors down there :)
|
>>Nice drop of Directors down there :)
Count me in. I like that even more than Abbot!
|
>>I like that even more than Abbot!<<
Don't forget Harveys, when it's good - it's good!
|
It's a pity it took the riots to galvanise judges and magistrates into doing what they should have been doing years ago.
The man in question has a high standard of education; that pre-supposes a good moral upbringing, the sense to know what theft is and the consequences thereof.
No sympathy for him or any of the others who got what they deserved.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 6 Sep 11 at 21:17
|
|
Whatever the sentence and its consequences it is not as harsh as transportation for 15 years for theft of a loaf of bread! Stealing a load of bread is still theft but it is easier to explain than theft of a flat screen TV!
|
>> Stealing a load of bread is still
>> theft but it is easier to explain than theft of a flat screen TV!
>>
Curveball question: All the folk who are shouting "... but he only stole a few bottles of water...' BUT how dio they know whether bottles of water were all that was left in the shop?
Nicking is nicking. If there'd been a shop full of phones or 42" plasmas, he'd have had some of that as well, no doubt.
|
So are your suggesting that people should be charged, tried and sentenced for crimes they might have committed if they had the chance?
Jails are going to be pretty full and I might be going down for a long stretch.
|
No CG, I'm saying that the thefts committed remain thefts - opportune, no doubt, but still theft.
You are either dishonest, or not. You see a chance to nick something which isn't yours, and you take it - be it a bottle of water, a packet of fags, or a blackberry.
The riot excuse 'oh, well, everyone was doing it' doesn't wash with me - maybe I have a different set of values to others?
It is the old GB Shaw argument - 'we know what you are, we're just negotiating price.'
|
|
It's just as well that in this country we are judged by 12 people (usually) and not just one hard-hearted sod.
|
Maybe juries should be made up of 12 victims of a similar crime?
Let me put it another way - scrote #1 breaks into my car and relieves me of my stereo system.
Scrote #2 arrives on the scene a few minutes later, and nicks all the CDs which scrote #1 missed.
Guess my feelings for both of those vermin?
As I said in another post - you are either a thief, or you aren't.
These rioting types were either taking stuff which did not belong to them, or they weren't. Looks pretty damn cut-and-dried from where I'm sitting.
|
>>
>>
>> As I said in another post - you are either a thief, or you aren't.
>> These rioting types were either taking stuff which did not belong to them, or they
>> weren't. Looks pretty damn cut-and-dried from where I'm sitting.
>>
>>
I see the argument, and it makes a certain sense. But it would continually throw up very disconcerting anomalies. You are suggesting there would be a flat-rate sentence based on the answer to one simple question, Is this person a thief?
Would you pitch the sentence high, appropriate for a cold callous raider armed with a shotgun? Or low, for the little old lady or 11-year old who happened to be passing and took the opportunity to pick up a tube of polo mints?
In the old days the sentence on conviction would have been hanging, or possibly only transportation. But in consequence juries often came out with perverse aquittals because they knew what the sentence would be and they disagreed with it.
|
>> Would you pitch the sentence high, appropriate for a cold callous raider armed with a shotgun? Or low, for the little old lady or 11-year old who happened to be passing and took the opportunity to pick up a tube of polo mints?
In these instances, Cliff, I'd be tempted to use a 'law of common purpose'.
I'm not talking day-to-day crimes, but crime taking place during a time of civil unrest.
Opportunistic theft, because some rioter broke in to the shop, and 'everyone else was doing it' should be no excuse, and should not have a bearing on the sentence passed down.
Again, IF the scrote had jumped into the shop, and found something more valuable to nick, he probably would have done so, it isn't just about a few bottles of water, it is the principle that he is prepared to nick stuff because he thinks he can get away with it, and not suffer the consequences.
Last edited by: Ian (Cape Town) on Wed 7 Sep 11 at 09:27
|
Yes, but you can't sentence based on what somebody "probably" would have done?
Or do you use the criterion, what would a reasonable person have done?
If I found a holdall containing millions of pounds in used dollar notes, and then a policeman walked past, I'd hand it over to him. But if he didn't, I'd be off to South America. Any reasonable person would be.
|
>> Yes, but you can't sentence based on what somebody "probably" would have done?
>>
>> Or do you use the criterion, what would a reasonable person have done?
The reasonable person probably wouldn't have entered a broken-in-to premises and looted goods, IMO.
If you'd found a holdall full of $$$, then good luck to you. Had you been in a place where you should not have been in the first place - ie a bank vault, which had conveniently been smashed open by a bunch of criminals, or at the scene of an air crash, where luggage was tossed about, then bad luck for you if/when you get nicked.
|
I was in Sydney a few weeks ago and did some background reading into the history of the area and in particular its origins as a penal colony.
What struck me was the apparently minor nature of the crimes for which people were transported there - and it should be remembered that this rather harsh sentence was often given instead of the death penalty - perhaps merely for stealing a loaf of bread.
The point I make is that sentencing appears to me to reflect the social attitudes and values of the time, the sentences I've seen meted out for the UK riots don't appear to be overly harsh, indeed reading the BBC article the idea of criminal convictions having a time-period by which they are spent for most purposes also seems fair to me (like points on your license).
So I have to ask - what's the problem here? I've never been tempted to loot or riot and have managed to control the impulse to steal so-far in my life, perhaps those convicted will learn from their mistakes ?
I have been in the position as an employer of receiving information from a CRB check about a conviction, I was able to make an informed judgement based on the time elapsed, my knowledge of the character of the individual and their explanation of the circumstances and I chose to employ that person.
|
Most law in this country is national, but justice is local.
A magistrates' bench hearing a raft of cases of one nature is entitled to come down harder on those offenders - within limited guidelines.
So if I do a solo looting in my town which was not subject to rioting, I may get a more lenient sentence than if I joined the queue of looters in a town in which rioting did take place.
|
>>
>>
>> So if I do a solo looting in my town which was not subject to
>> rioting, I may get a more lenient sentence than if I joined the queue of
>> looters in a town in which rioting did take place.
>>
>>
>>
May be. But when we see a group of locals in Tripoli rooting about in a bombed out shop, we say law and order has clearly broken down here, someone might as well have the stuff, good luck to them.
But if I tried a solo loot in Tunbridge Wells, would I be more or less deserving of a harsher sentence?
|
As usual the one person being forgotten in all this is the most important one, the victim.
Innocent people trying to earn a crust, many of them employers of long standing too, their shops looking like they've suffered a direct hit from a scud missile, meanwhile useless individuals thought it was good opportunity to clear the place.
Think we reached a new low when groups of shop owners had to band together to protect their premises.
I think when a disaster or something like this strikes you see the real person emerge, low life's resort to their type.
|
If I found a holdall containing millions of pounds in used dollar notes, and then a policeman walked past, I'd hand it over to him. But if he didn't, I'd be off to South America. Any reasonable person would be.
Really? I have many, many faults but I damned well wouldn't.
|
|
Well, may be not, but I'd think about it, which would almost be the same crime :)
|
>> Well, may be not, but I'd think about it, which would almost be the same
>> crime :)
>>
Nah, it wouldn't, or everyone would be guilty of something. Just the other day I thought with great pleasure about murdering a colleague at work using just the plastic spoon that came with my dinner. But I didn't. Sadly.
|
>> Nah, it wouldn't, or everyone would be guilty of something. Just the other day I
>> thought with great pleasure about murdering a colleague at work using just the plastic spoon
>> that came with my dinner. But I didn't. Sadly.
Blimey, are you guys so stressed out that they don't trust you with proper cutlery now?
|
|
For our own safety, apparently. That's what the security goons say when my yoghurt is confiscated, anyway.
|
...For our own safety, apparently...
Plastic cutlery and cups in most court canteens for similar reasons.
|
...If I found a holdall containing millions of pounds in used dollar notes, and then a policeman walked past, I'd hand it over to him. But if he didn't, I'd be off to South America. Any reasonable person would be...
If you handed the holdall to a policeman, he's be off to South America. :)
|
A criminal record. The lasting effect. - teabelly
