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Having no axe to grind on this I am just wondering how Unison and others think their pensions are going to be funded during their retirement, which is likely to be longer that it was 10 years ago, unless they pay more into the scheme? If they want to draw a pension for more years I guess they should pay more?
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The unions, (and the Labour party) have never been good at sums.
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Well they say they have already made changes and that makes them affordable now. The next changes aren't needed the gov are planning. I think that is their position.
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The debate reminds me of a certain leader of the NUM who fought the then Government long and hard to achieve pit closures and the decimation of mining in the UK and succeeded.
Last edited by: madf on Tue 13 Sep 11 at 19:21
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I long felt unions dont look any further than their next pay deal/strike, they will always keep asking, persuading their members that the bottomless pit of money/pot of gold at the end of the rainbow exists and must be fought for.
Watching the antics of Bob Crow, I cant help but wonder if what is in essence a worthy notion, fighting for fair play, has been infected with the disease of immorality - doesnt one of these union leaders have a council house while on serious wedge - seems to me anyone with a working moral compass would have vacated for a family in need a long time ago, but it seems that rhetoric about fair play doesnt cross the threashold of some peoples front doors.
I like the idea of a union which offers protection and support, but when it becomes an overtly aggressive entity, it becomes something rather destructive.
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Crow lives in a Housing Association property[20] in Woodford, Greater London. The fact that his rent is subsidised by the state causes controversy, as his annual salary amounted to over £140,000 in 2010.[21][22]
According to Wiki - and it is referenced and sourced.
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As a prospective public service pensioner I'd just make two points. The first is that there is not just one scheme. Teachers, Civil Servants and the NHS for example all have different terms both for the benefits and the funding. The Civil Service scheme is unfunded, the Local Government scheme(s) are. Neither set of employees had any choice in that; the payments and benefits are part of our contractual terms. Lord Hutton's report suggested that the costs, as a % of GDP peak in the next ten years then fall back.
The second is that I think most of us accept that change is necessary in a world of longer life expectancy etc. The issue is the present goverment's determination to push through it's particular proposals without meaningful negotation. If they were willing to compromise around issues such as the phasing of increased contributions (which in the unfunded schemes simple mean a wage cut), longer service and arrangements for those nearing retirement I suspect they could cut a deal.
Crow is a different issue. Apart from London Uderground most of his members work for private sector TOC's.
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Like most socialists the unions have never understood where the money comes from. They think if you want more you just print it.
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You mean like 'quantitive easing'?
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Just check out the salaries and perks of the top union leaders and then appreciate why they want to cause mayhem. They don't want to risk such a luxurious lifestyle by playing along to the gallery.
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Private sector pay has been stagnated for since the mid 2000's, private sector pension schemes have been decimated in the same period, the gap between Public and Private workers has never been closer, so its inevitable that public sector pensions will be pruned, as there is no desire to retain staff or recruit new. No need to make it attractive.
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Good point Fullchat.The unions didn't cause this mess.
Printing money high inflation low pay rises except for some.A merry go round.
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As a GP I'm paying employee and employer superannuation contributions for my pension (self-employed status like most GPs).
That means something like 22% of my top line disappears before NI and Income Tax need to be accounted for (and of course several grand for Indemnity cover, GMC/BMA/etc.)
Makes me glad I earn 5 bazillion pounds per year just like the Mail says...
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>> Makes me glad I earn 5 bazillion pounds per year just like the Mail says...
If you are a GP then you do earn significantly more than most. EVen after taking off the other payments. And the pension contributions are pre-tax.
So we all know (A) you are on a good income (B) you have a good pension and (C) we will be around to steal your Porsche later :-)
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A friend of mine is a GP. He owns a 1920's Bentley, a '68 E Type and a '72 Aston Martin.
Shame he can't afford owt newer...
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I don't begrudge doctors a good income, assorted doctors have saved my life three times for assorted problems and restored me to good (ish) health. Just wait until you really need one to find out if they are overpaid.
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I think most doctors deserve every penny, but if they ever get the notion that their income is in any way average or to be the source of any amount of pity, id have to conclude that their grip on reality was doubtful.
My wife earns £13.5k per year, which is about the least you can earn full time on minimum wage. Her pension contribution is £28 a month and the company chucks in another £50.
I dont think she will be gold plating anything on retirement.
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Be under no illusions, Doctors work hard and earn their money, but underpaid they are not.
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My point, other than to brag about having a gold-plated Ferrari and a holiday home in the Caymans*, is to remind people that an "unfunded" pension doesn't mean "non-contributory".
Most public pensions are paid directly from tax income - most public workers pay superannuation which goes straight back to the Treasury rather than into a fund.
The way some media represent this is we receive our income and get a pension for free.
*lies. It's on the moon.
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BBC tells us that the unions are planning a coordinated "Day of Action" on 30th November. As a professional pedant I would say that not being at work and not doing what they are paid for would be a day of "Inaction"
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There's also the benefit to taxpayers that a day of (in)action by a chunk of public sector workers means a day less we have to pay them for. Based on a 5 day week thats almost 0.4% saving for this year straight away!!
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And perhaps a one day saving on the government's contributions to the pension schemes they are snivelling about. That'll teach them! Let them eat pies!
Last edited by: Meldrew on Wed 14 Sep 11 at 18:01
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If we didn't have such a ridiculous benefits culture in this country perhaps we wouldn't need so many public sector workers. Wifey works for the dept of work and pensions. It ain't all rosy in the garden. From newly released prison scum demanding to know where their money is to foreigners demanding to be put through to a (very expensive) interpreter in order to claim benefits from a system they've paid nowt into, you don't know the half of it. Noone on here would do her job. I certainly wouldn't.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 00:35
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Much of the public service workforce is not actively employed in the administration of benefits - doctors, nurses, healthcare assistants, medical secretaries, admin, managers (boooo), etc make up a huge slice of the public sector.
If you think privately provided healthcare is going to be better and cheaper I'm suspicious you'll be sadly mistaken.
Currently a private GP appointment retails at £80-105 in Edinburgh before you start looking at blood tests, referrals, etc.
www.gpplus.com/FEE_STRUCTURE.pdf
As much as the NHS can be streamlined further, expensive it is not.
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The person on the today talked of mobilizing to a day of strikes...seems a contradiction.
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My missus is a front line specialist nurse, Will she or her colleagues be going on strike? Nope.
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>>My missus is a front line specialist nurse, Will she or her colleagues be going on strike? Nope.
I can't really see a situation, unless the very existence of the NHS is being threatened, that would cause 'front-line' medical personnel to strike.
A much more destructive form of 'worker power' is used is the NHS and similar organisations - trained nurses and doctors leave the profession, retire early, go into private practice, or go overseas when work conditions or morale are allowed to become poor.
This = permanent waste of the money spent training that person (considering it costs over £200,000 to train a doctor that's a big old chunk).
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My niece is in fifth year medical student training.....it seems very, very thorough with plenty of practical on the job training - she has to fund a trip abroad in this year. She pays up front...
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She pays some of the cost of her training.
www.bma.org.uk/press_centre/presstrainingcost.jsp
www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-395095/It-cost-NHS-1m-train-So-jobs.html
I know it's the BMA, and the Wail (in 2006) respectively but medics get a pretty good deal despite coming out of University potentially rather debt-laden. It's sad to see talented men and women go elsewhere because the ongoing training/jobs here can be such a hit or miss.
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>> My niece is in fifth year medical student training.....it seems very, very thorough with plenty
>> of practical on the job training - she has to fund a trip abroad in
>> this year. She pays up front...
>>
On one occasion when I was in hospital my consultant asked me to help with a group of first year medical students introduction to patients. I was to answer their questions but give no additional information. He was teaching them not to take answers at face value and to investigate. things like "Do you smoke"? "No". "What do you ask next!" (have you ever smoked). The kids looked terrified. :)
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>> The kids looked terrified. :)
>>
Missed the edit-
On another occasion it was disconcerting to be wheeled into A&E and to find one of my daughters school pals on duty. She is now a local GP.
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>> On another occasion it was disconcerting to be wheeled into A&E and to find one of my daughters school pals on duty. She is now a local GP.
And what had accidentally 'become stuck' on that occasion, pray-tell ?
www.well.com/~cynsa/newbutt.html
Doesn't seem too NSFW at a cursory glance.
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>> www.well.com/~cynsa/newbutt.html
>>
>> Doesn't seem too NSFW at a cursory glance.
>>
More mundane, non alcohol induced leg failure.
(Guillain-Barre syndrome)
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Usually takes a couple of visits to the GP/A&E til someone twigs the tingling/numbness rising along the limbs might actually be quite serious...
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>> Usually takes a couple of visits to the GP/A&E til someone twigs the tingling/numbness rising
>> along the limbs might actually be quite serious...
>>
Mine was fast, leg failure in a hour, GP came to me in 30 minutes sussed it rapidly and called an ambulance. Fortunately mine only affected my legs, but you need to be near an ICU in case it spreads upwards. Fortunately a full recovery for me.
Sorry Lygonos forgot you are a GP, Granny and eggs. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 14 Sep 11 at 21:23
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I have found that the overseas pensions section of the DWP is the most efficient, friendly and helpful government agency I have ever dealt with.
Based in Newcastle upon Tyne, the 'phone is answered by a real person after commendably few rings and the nice, Geordie accented, staff are knowledgeable.
The ordinary DWP pensions department is pretty good too, in my experience.
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I have had top service from HMRC in Leicester. Filled in my tax return and got it in early. Then got a £600+ demand. Knew it couldn't be right, rang up, found that it was due to a large mathematical error on my part. Sent in revised figures in writing and got a new Tax Code and a £200 refund within a calendar month.
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I second that Roger I have dealt with the Newcasle Branch thumbs up for their expertise.
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I had the same experience....turned an 850 pound debit to a 46 pound one with one quick phone call and a ten minute session at the local tax office.
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>> turned an 850 pound debit to a 46 pound one with one quick phone call and a ten minute session at the local tax office.
/raises eyebrows
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Yep - as simple as that - I took all my paperwork with me including multiple tax-codings in that financial year....everything was skewed by my wife's death....nightmare.
Stopping working in the next tax year really sorted my tax problems out. :-)
Last edited by: R.P. on Wed 14 Sep 11 at 20:59
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the 'phone is answered by a real person after commendably
>> few rings and the nice, Geordie accented, staff are knowledgeable.
That seems to be a common theme with companies i deal with too, once you hear that friendly Geordie hello you just know the call is going to have a good result.
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I don't know if it's correct or not, but I read in the paper today that the strikers will all be on full pay?
Pat
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"but I read in the paper today "
:-)
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>> "but I read in the paper today "
>>
>> :-)
>>
That's why I asked the question...perhaps you could enlighten us?
Pat
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I've never heard of anyone being paid while on strike.
Maybe the 'day of action' isn't going to officially be a strike?
Other than 'work-to-rule' I can't see what action could be taken, other than a strike, that didn't breech an employment contract.
Which paper is it?
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>> I don't know if it's correct or not, but I read in the paper today
>> that the strikers will all be on full pay?
>>
>> Pat
Highly unlikley Pat.
I cannot speak for other parts of the Public Service but strikers in the Civil Service will lose a day's pay.
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It's Trevor Kavanagh's comment to the article in The Sun, which is why I asked for clarification.
It isn't in the online version.
He says '' These strikes,which will cost the strikers not a penny in lost pay, will crucify struggling tax payers''
Pat
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Removed 'cos he was talking pfd
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 00:32
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No Bromptonaut, I meant his comment column isn't in the online version.
Surely someone can give a definitive answer without being derogatory to the source?
Pat
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Anyone who strikes in our council has their pay stopped for the time they are absent, however sick pay is is a different matter.:)
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Sorry Pat, I thought you meant the online version differed from the edition distributed in your part of the country. Not retracting the suggestion that Kavanagh talks rubbish though!!
I can give you a definitive answer for the Civil Service - unauthorised absence leads to a pay deduction. Same in teaching.
Leave is not usually allowed once action has been anounced though managers have discretion in cases of hardship. Staff unable to attend because of kids locked out of school might be an example.
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Unions pay strike pay....sometimes..
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If you get strike pay, its only ever a fraction of your real pay.
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I'm a frontline NHS worker. I won't be striking.
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Strike days don't count for pension either.
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I'd love a pension to get upset about. Oh I've got three or four of the wretched things but they're worth naff all. I could go on strike but I'm afraid no one would really care, they'd just go to a supplier who wasn't on strike...
:-(
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The Unions just don't get it do they?
The whole world is in a recession. Europe is teetering on financial disaster, in that, if Greece goes under, so will a few others. Then look at what our financial problems would be.
We are better placed than some, but still have enormous amounts of debt, as does the United States, an enormous economy, that affects us greatly.
We have a fairly high percentage of public sector workers, who do not generally earn the country anything.
Private sector workers, who do earn the country something have noticeably less pension rights/benefits than the public sector workers. Some have lost what they once had.
Many people either now have no job, are having to work less hours or are deeply worried about their job security.
A secure (ish)* public sector job, with a good pension ought to have people grateful they have what they've got...and if required to pay a bit more for it, still be grateful.
...and yet, the Unions want strikes. What utter, utter, head in the sand clowns.
(* some public sector jobs are going through compulsory redundancies, so fair enough they are vulnerable, but surely you'd want your Union to negotiate the best deal possible in difficult circumstances, not strike).
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>> A secure (ish)* public sector job, with a good pension ought to have people grateful
>> they have what they've got...and if required to pay a bit more for it, still
>> be grateful.
>>
>> ...and yet, the Unions want strikes. What utter, utter, head in the sand clowns.
>>
>> (* some public sector jobs are going through compulsory redundancies, so fair enough they are
>> vulnerable, but surely you'd want your Union to negotiate the best deal possible in difficult
>> circumstances, not strike).
Negotiation is what the Unions are trying to do. Trouble is the gov are determined to push through their opening position without compromise.
And, while I've said this before, is your profession going to take every bit of Tom Winzor's prescription without protest??
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 15 Sep 11 at 20:40
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>> And, while I've said this before, is your profession going to take every bit of
>> Tom Winzor's prescription without protest??
>>
Clearly not.... and I still have the opinion expressed above....because there's a bigger picture here. Some are not willing to contemplate it...but isn't that Union mentality all over?
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>> The Unions just don't get it do they?
The other bit they don't get is the incongruity of striking against other taxpayers who will have to underwrite a benefit that they don't themselves enjoy, and never will.
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>> We have a fairly high percentage of public sector workers, who do not generally earn the country anything.
Private sector workers, who do earn the country something <<
Riiiigggghhhhhhhhtttt.
So if we privatise the NHS it will start bringing in the beans.
And schools too?
And the administration of how the country runs?
And the Armed Forces?
And the Police?
And the Fire Service?
Utter crap I'm afraid, but a view shared by too many.
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>Utter crap I'm afraid, but a view shared by too many.
That's a straw man Lygonos and you should know it!
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You could in theory privatise just about any public service.
The reason it isnt is more to do with notion that its too vital to yield control to private individuals who dont have to consider a nationwide needs and the moral responsibility to the nation to provide these services.
I dont make any money from making the beds, cooking my wife dinner or doing the food shopping, but it needs to be done.
When I go out and get money for cleaning peoples cars, that funds my existance, not the housework, but that doesnt mean both arent important.
The public services are provided in return for our taxes, I presume because it is determined that as a collective nation that money is better spent that way rather than a totally local system for all services.
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If the country's expenditure was based on what we could afford - and still encourage private investment and business formation - the public sector would be reduced in size by one third or so.
For a start, the NHS is basically out of control financially#. Patients expect unlimited treatment at no cost, often with self inflicted illnesses. (smoking, drinking, obesity to name but three). Anyone with any sense can see that with minimal economic growth, it's not financially viable. See the cries about NHS funding and services when total spend is still increasing. The NHS expenditure has real world inflation of c 10% built in due to modern medicine costs.
Of course the NHS model is flawed. The rest of the world either goes totally private (US) or a mix of public and insurance - see France. The involvement of some personal expenditure ensures some degree of fiscal responsibility by users. In the UK there is NO incentive for people to improve their own health.. The NHS replace your liver FOC if you are an alcoholic.
# Short of money and still doing operations to make normal people look better, embryo fertilisation etc.. Nice to haves but when money is tight should be ditched. A&E patients who are drunk? Should pay..
With economic growth likely to be very low over the next 10 years - and certainly well below long term averages around 2.5% pa, the NHS - and other services as currently run are unaffordable. And all politicians know it. It's obvious...
But of course, the Unions support a party which thinks debt is infinite and our children should pay for our excesses. Because all their plans mean the younger generations will have to pay in higher taxes..
Not sustainable...
(Unison are strving to do to the NHS what Scargill did to the mines)
Last edited by: madf on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 12:42
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>>A&E patients who are drunk? Should pay..<<
By the same token..
sports injuries should pay
single vehicle road accidents should pay
Trip over the mat....?
Where does it stop?
Pat
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Im sure your well aware that getting drunk is a deliberate act - accidents arent, thats why they are accidental. How many people do you know who accidentally get drunk???
Im suprised at you for making such a weak point.
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I can see where Pat is coming from. Some sports injuries (say from rugby) are almost inevitable. And then she points out that you then might consider all accidents.
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Accidents are accidents.
Drunk means volunatrily inatke of excess alcohol.
Sports injuries? You don't set out to be injured..
When you drink, you KNOW in advance too much alcohol is bad for you.
.
Simples...
Ditto smoking.
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>> I can see where Pat is coming from. Some sports injuries (say from rugby) are
>> almost inevitable. And then she points out that you then might consider all accidents.
>>
Both examples you quote are very weak arguments.
Rugby is not compulsory. It is a lifestyle choice.
All accidents can be prevented. If you are accident prone, then get insurance for it. If you are not to blame, get the party responsible to pay for your costs. That is what you do for your car, don't you? I suppose next you will argue that your car insurance should be paid for by the state.
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How many people do you know who accidentally get drunk???
I do my wife did once.After Daughters wedding at her house.The wodka came out Polish inlaws.
Somebody put to much wodca in the wifes diet coke made her ill.
Had to take her to A&E for help.I never let her live it down..;)
Pat has a good point where do you stop? In Madf world there is no room for the inperfect.
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>> Somebody put to much wodca in the wifes diet coke made her ill.
>>
In effect,either someone poisoned her or she did not take care to check what she was drinking. In either case, no one forced her to drink. So it was not an accident.
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Not poisoned that sounds a bit dramatic.
All I'm saying things happen and not always out of purpose.Don;t be so sanctimonious.
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If madf honestly beleives that addictions are a matter of choice he/she needs to get out a bit more.
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>>If madf honestly beleives that addictions are a matter of choice he/she needs to get out a bit more. <<
Not all twits who drink too much and do something silly are alcoholics either. Some people are just stupid.
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You should know that there is no such thing as an accident these days.
Evrything that happens is someone's fault and usually turns out to be your own fault if it involves someone else paying for it.
It's called the blame culture.
And taking part in risky sports isn't forced upon anyone.
Pat
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>> Riiiigggghhhhhhhhtttt.
>>
>> So if we privatise the NHS it will start bringing in the beans.
>>
>> And schools too?
>>
>> And the administration of how the country runs?
>>
>> And the Armed Forces?
>>
>> And the Police?
>>
>> And the Fire Service?
>>
>>
>> Utter crap I'm afraid, but a view shared by too many.
>>
>>
Alas, your view is shared by too many in the public sector. This country has become so used to a nanny state where the Gubermint provides for everything that people now believe that without the state sector, we could not survive. As it is, the state sector is draining too many resources and is killing the country.
Much of the Civil Service, Armed Forces, Police, Fire Service, NHS, and Education can be privatised and they would be better in every respect if they were.
>> Currently a private GP appointment retails at £80-105 in Edinburgh
>>
Obviously the market for that service exists at that price even when competing against a someone willing to provide the service free - a doctor in the NHS. Out of the 10 or so Doctors who work in my GP surgery, I think only 2 would be able to get their patients to use them as paying customers. The other 8 are so bad that patients accept appointments with them only as they are "free" and no other choice is available on the NHS.
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SO far most of those who don't agree with my comments have just not realised what I am saying.
The simple fact is the NHS will HAVE to save money and set priorities. No choice just financial neccessity.. Money is not infinite...
So there will be a choice: Say..
save somone with a heart attack - say at age 45 - or treat three drunks in A&E with injuries caused by their drunkeness. Or a chronic druggie.
>Rattle.
Everyone makes lifestyle choices. To suggest otherwise is to suggest life is pre -ordained...
As it stands, the system is designed to treat everyone regardless of cost. Of course, the result is long queues so lettting thm die before treatment...
The idea that personal responsibility might have a bearing is obviously too appalling for some...
Last edited by: madf on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 13:47
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Equally so, the idea that the NHS should be run efficiently with less managers and more managing.
Pat
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I remember Roy Castle madf never smoked and ended up with long cancer.
Iam now at a age to be very carefull to judge people,we all do it but it never cures any problem.
Some of your points are valued I have worked in A&E.And seeing people coming in with drug and drink problems.Don't sell the cheap booze or sigs governements make good profits out of the taxes they charge.We are resposible for our own well being but some illness I'm afraid nobody asked for.People are living longer but need more medical care.What to do/Give us all a injection at 70 due to cost?
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Dutchie
One thing for sure, I do not intend to live my last years senile, incontinent or in a hospital bed.. That's not living..
Similar argument with the elderly. The current gov't talked about elederly not having to sell their houses to fund care. A rubbish argument economically.
I don't have a solution but any solution that cannot magic money from nowhere is going to mean reduced standards of living for the young to fund the old.
That is of course politically unacceptable to the future.
And of course fuel costs keep rising as affluence spreads in China and elsewhere. Many of the old need much warmer temperatures than normal (>20C) in winter to keep from hypothermia..Unaffordable long term.
I can see withdrawal of some kinds of free healthcare to the over 70s becoming an economic neccessity. (Which has in reality existed in some shape or form from the NHS start)..
Last edited by: madf on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 14:13
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Give us all a injection at 70 due to cost?
>>
Won't be needed D, another few hundred years down the line they'll be putting monitoring chips in the bodies of worker babies, once they reach the end of their productive lives they'll get switched off as will the worker adult....this is one of SWM's strong suspicions as to how things will go, she has an uncanny knack of being right.
Seeing as how many of our old folk will die of various causes for fear of putting the heating on or feeding themselves adequately this winter we have the poor's version already.
Notice many ethnic immigrant familes don't allow their old folk to die alone and neglected, i've always admired other culture's for their respect and care of their elders, hopefully we here buck the British trend (no offence to British of other cultures, difficult to phrase it without colour).
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>>Notice many ethnic immigrant familes don't allow their old folk to die alone and neglected, i've always admired other culture's for their respect and care of their elders <<
I think its part of a Western ideal of taking care of number one. Ive never subscribed to it and nor has either my mums nor my dads family. Nobody with needs that can be coped with by the family has ever been put in a home.
My nan is almost bedridden atm due to a week long illness that stopped her ability to walk, our reaction was to persue every avenue of care available on the NHS so the OT came in and she now has a host of equipment to help her get about, a physio has been in and all of us are working with the physio to get her leg strength back enough that she can walk again.
I do her housework twice a week, physio once a week, I do her food shopping, I take her out on a wkend.
My dad manages her care team including care nurses 4 times a day and her medication, my mum manages her finances and monitors her correspondance to ensure she pays bills etc and doesnt forget birthdays aswell as filling in when care nurses arent there.
In the last few days my parenst have elected to move from their downstairs apartment in their house to upstairs so my nan can have their area which is easier to get around and then the OT can get a special bed sent in for her.
There was no discussion about whether they wanted to do it, nobody thinks like that, its whats best for the family and the queue is always those in need come first. Its a collective unit that works admittedly if everyone gives of themselves, which we do so willingly.
I know in the future there is no question about whether my mother can live with me, its an unwritten rule almost that has been going on 150 years over every generation.
The way some people look upon their elderly relatives disgusts me. The care nurses have told me some horrific stories of neglect by families, even while they are sponging off their elderly relative as they go. It really isnt all that good.
Last edited by: FoR on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 14:54
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NHS may be designed/intended to treat everyone regardless of cost but it doesn't work out that way. Operations are delayed in the hope that people will get fed up and go private if they can afford it. Some operations for the elderly are denied when an analysis is done of how many years of use someone may get from a hip or knee operation when measured against the cost of performing it. Too old or too expensive means get by on pain and limited mobility for the years you have left!
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>> Utter crap I'm afraid, but a view shared by too many.
>>
Why do you need to be so rude....
...and you've got the wrong end of the stick, I wasn't saying to privatise everything...
and i'm a public servant myself, as is my wife... so i'm hardly going to ignore our own essential contributions.
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I don't expect my daughter to care for me, when I become incapable in so doing for myself.
She has her own life, with her own responsibilities to her children.
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>> I don't expect my daughter to care for me, when I become incapable in so
>> doing for myself.
>> She has her own life, with her own responsibilities to her children.
>>
>>
So who do you expect to look after you if you are no longer able to care for yourself?
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You dont bring children into the world so they can look after you in your later life.
I will have spent 50 years contributing to the state, the state can give me some payback.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 15:32
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>> I will have spent 50 years contributing to the state, the state can give me
>> some payback.
>>
Dream on Z. You don't qualify, you were born here.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 15:43
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You spend about 20 years of your life bringing up children and they repay you by looking after you in your dotage; it works in cultures East of ours! There are countries that don't even have a word for "Old People's Home"
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>> You spend about 20 years of your life bringing up children and they repay you
REPAY YOU? Oh I see, did they know they had been brought into this world as an investment? did they know that they were wopping up a debt, at what age do you tell them?
Anyone who brought kids in the world expecting them to provide for them in later years should be forcibly made infertile, clearly not fit to be parents.
>> by looking after you in your dotage; it works in cultures East of ours! There
>> are countries that don't even have a word for "Old People's Home"
They don't have a word for health service either.
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>> They don't have a word for health service either.
>>
Presumably they don't have a phrase for ''taxed till the pips squeak'' either to pay for it all, and every visiting health service user in the process.
I don't want my children to look after me a such, what i do expect of them is human kindness and duty to their parents which because theye have been raised properly and seen the way things are done they will replicate, the same as i showed to my parents, who still lived in their own home till the very last few days before their deaths...my father came home to die at my mothers insistence, and quite right to.
We made the downstairs living room into my dads bedroom for the last few weeks, he then passed peacefully in his sleep....his car still outside the window kept clean and looked after by us for 'when he gets better', several months like that, i drove it regularly and kept it clean...obvious reasons, if anyone needs that explaining i'll spit.
My poor mother unfortunately died of a sudden heart attack whilst apparently improving in hospital, otherwise she too would have come home to die...she lived in my downstairs living room converted to bedroom for several months whilst recovering from a broken hip.
No heroics, basic human kindness and respect to our loved ones, replicating the kindness and respect my parents showed for their parents and to me/us.
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>> No heroics, basic human kindness and respect to our loved ones, replicating the kindness and
>> respect my parents showed for their parents and to me/us.
Agreed, but with some key points, your kids are not saddled with a debt to look after their parents because that's why they were conceived, nor do you want to impinge upon or ruin their lives because its their "duty"
your kids owe you nothing, anything you get back is a bonus,
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 16:24
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Surely part of the escalating costs of 'public services' is due to the reduction of households with 3 generations living in them as we have become 'richer'.
Someone has to pay for all the nursing homes where it costs £500-600 per week per resident.
In the past it was more normal for infirm grandparents to be at home.
Those care costs need to be met privately or from the public purse.
Once you have a generation who think it's abnormal to look after your elderly relatives I'd guess it is very hard to go back to the old ways.
Similar to the effect where a single generation who never work tend to spawn generations equally unlikely to be productive.
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>
>> Someone has to pay for all the nursing homes where it costs £500-600 per week
>> per resident.
You are looking at this the wrong way round. Given that the old age pension is £97.65 how can it cost 5-600 pounds a week in a home?
The cost of care homes is way out of proportion to what they provide for the residents.
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>> You are looking at this the wrong way round. Given that the old age pension
>> is £97.65 how can it cost 5-600 pounds a week in a home?
>>
>> The cost of care homes is way out of proportion to what they provide for
>> the residents.
>>
>>
>>
Hmm..
Let see.
A home built to Government standards including wide corridors for wheelchairs, lifts and fully secure exits/entrances plus gardens.
Full time staffing including tthose with Alzheimers, bathing (including lifts in baths).
Heating to 20C plus all the time.
In house cooking.
Entertainment. etc.
Rates/insurance /licenses etc.
It's liek a cheap hotel with 3 full meals a day for £70/day including heating, washing and ironing..
And you need at least one qualified nurse to oversee drugs etc.. a lot more if it's a home for the mentally incompetent.
Costs a LOT more in expensive locations...as staff and building costs rise...
...
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>> Costs a LOT more in expensive locations...as staff and building costs rise...
All that and more is expected be covered by the pension, and the current health services.
Lets say we have 50 people in a home, all paying 500 a week. Thats 1.3 million a year.
No wonder its gone private.
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My daughter in law works in one of these private care homes and gets paid JUST above the minimum wage.
Her shifts can be antisocial and up to 15 hours long but she loves her 'old ladies' as she calls them.
She is currently on holiday but studying to do her 'drugs' course so she can administer medication. This won't amount to an increase in pay but will look better on her CV if she needs another job.
And don't get me started on the foreign nurses employed there, who don't seem to think they should do anything at all.
Pat
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>> And don't get me started on the foreign nurses employed there, who don't seem to think they should do anything at all.
Plenty of foreign nurses work like troopers also, I think what accounts for the lack of effort is what you mention: paying someone £6.50 an hour to perform a busy, antisocial, responsible job borders on sexual discrimination through the back door.
How many men would do that work for that money?
A similar job performed "by men" eg. hospital porter (maybe that's lower down the scale of responsibility) I bet you'll find the pay higher.
I think some councils have caught this particular bullet and are having to find mucho pesos to top up the pay of 'underpaid' women.
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This is a PRIVATE nursing home Lygonos, charging the earth in sumptious grounds.
Pat
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Doesn't matter - the going rate of pay for nursing/care staff isn't much different from public to private homes - most homes where I am in Scotland are run privately but much of the funding comes from the public purse.
Every pound you don't pay your staff ultimately feeds back to the owners.
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>> Similar to the effect where a single generation who never work tend to spawn generations
>> equally unlikely to be productive.
has nothing to do with it and has no place in this discussion.
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>> has nothing to do with it and has no place in this discussion.
Other than making the point that a generation of behaviour changes often becomes the norm.
Also the days of major profiteering from nursing homes is long gone.
Even private companies using imported (cheap) foreign nursing care can barely turn a decent profit - the costs are very high as noted above.
see also Southern Cross (nice bit of selling property and renting back by the previous owners?)
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>> see also Southern Cross (nice bit of selling property and renting back by the previous
>> owners?)
Southern cross was as near to corporate fraud as i have ever seen.
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>> They don't have a word for health service either.
Do they have the same incidence of dementia as western society?
Partner's Mum began to get forgetful about 12yrs ago. We arranged for her to get a place in sheltered flats in our village and she adapted well to that as 'home'. Managed her gradual decline there for a further 5 years with visiting carers but eventually wandering, losing keys and locking herself out were commonplace. No way could she be cared for in our house; apart from inability to orientate and find toilets etc she would be distressed and want to 'go home'. If asked where 'home' was the answer would be the Birmingham suburb where she grew up. Frustration could lead to lashing out and at 5 foot nine and over ten stone she could pack a punch!!
Fortunately we were able to find a home that couild take her but places that deal with physically active dementia sufferers are few and far between. No NHS money though; she's self funding.
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How much of this selffunding comes from people have to sell their home to finance this.
You work hard all your live pay your morgage and then the state makes you pay for care in old age.Don't sound cosha to me.
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If they are brought up well they will see it as part of family life not a debt that needs repayment.
If you are looking to our NHS to look after you are in your old age you will be disappointed.
Last edited by: Meldrew on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 17:17
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>> If they are brought up well they will see it as part of family life
>> not a debt that needs repayment.
Not if you tell them
"I spent about 20 years of my life bringing you up, you repay me by looking after me in my dotage"
they wont.
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Well of course, not having your blunt and direct approach to life and everything, I wouldn't say that or have to say it. Mutual support and help in time of need is part of the ethos of my family life.
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>> Well of course, not having your blunt and direct approach to life and everything, I
>> wouldn't say that or have to say it.
But thats exactly what you said!
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>>If you are looking to our NHS to look after you are in your old age you will be disappointed
True. But that's because it is Social Work +/- Local Authorities that should be providing this service.
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Wherever it is meant to come from you are likely to be disappointed!
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Lots of 'public' services have already been made private, either because of a need for £££ by the govt of the day, or to avoid massive infrastructure charges being the responsibility of govt.
eg. sales of BT, Gas, Electric, Water in England, etc.
All of these services have paying customers (at the point of use) and are easy to privatise.
How do these private companies 'make money' for the country?
They are a (probably more efficient) way of taxing us for services that were once provided by the State - while giving a very tasty chunk to shareholders (private individuals/pension funds/etc)
Make money for the country? Don't see it - especially as many are owned by overseas consortia.
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I was talking to the OT and she said that the State will, if you know how to access it, throw tens of thousands of £££ at someone like my nan because if they spend say £30k on her now and ease the workload from us the family, it decreases the likelyhood that they will have to fund further care later down the line. She likened it to preventitive medicine.
My nan funds her own care team, but medication, equipment and some other bits and bobs the state pays for. What it means is she gets the highest level of care at a relatively cheap price.
On the subject of duty, I was NEVER told I had any duty to look after any family when they were old BUT I was raised to believe that you help people who need your help, not to gain reward, the reward is to give because you can.
Since I rather like my family, it seems only natural I would help them in any way I can - they have been immensely supportive towards me, I see no reason why that cannot be a two-way street.
My attitude extends towards my sons mother too - id happily go and dig her garden or strip wallpaper for her, regardless of my personal feelings towards her because she is family, the mother of my child and I feel a better person for thinking that way than being a self-absorbed selfish individual.
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>>She likened it to preventitive medicine.
This is the biggest healthcare lie ever sold!
Back in 1948, the NHS was created to "improve the health of the nation" and by spending the money upfront, this healthier population would cost less in future years.
We now have a vast army of aging people drawing pensions for 30+years, requiring increasing healthcare as time goes past.
Good healthcare costs a lot. An awful lot.
It can certainly be provided more efficiently than in the past, and I can confirm at least from the GP side there is huge pressure to reduce prescribing costs - many of you may have been receiving letters advising of planned switches of medication from brand A to brand B - this is entirely to do with saving money (brand B may have lost it's patent and as a result now costs 10% of brand A).
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OK Lygonos, then why has the NHS wasted money over the years?
I had a Thyroidectomy in the early 1970's. I have been on thyroxine ever since as you will know.
This entitled me to free perscriptions for ANY medication for the rest of my life.
Why not just perscribe Thyroxine free and make people pay for any other medication.
This is just one single example...there are many more, as you know.
This sort of thing has been going on for years and is one of the reasons for my remarks about NHS Managers managing economically.
Why should we all suffer now because they thought there was a bottomless pot of money 40 years ago?
Pat
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Prescription charges come via the Govt of the day - the NHS management have nothing to do with it.
I agreee with your sentiment - I reckon having to pay perhaps 20% of the drug cost and having 80% covered by the NHS (with a cap for those unfortunate enough to require massively expensive treatment) would help patients focus on whether they want the £2.00/month simvastatin, or the £25.00/month atorvastatin.
Most prescription items cost less than the prescription charge (in England)
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Thanks for bringing the 'duty' in again Stu, i didn't phrase my above post very well.
To me a duty to my loved ones (among other things) is something i will carry out with the utmost pride and pleasure, a duty to my loved ones is a privelidge not a bind.
If my son and daughter do not feel the same i will not pressurise them under any circumstances, but i shall be surprised seeing how they behave in their day to day lives, with honour and hard work.
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Spot on Lygonos.
Both my wife and I have had these letters this week. At least it mentioned cost in amongst the reassuring waffle about a review to give us the best treatment for our health and welfare.
And they had amended repeat prescriptions attached.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 17:54
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Just as a fr'instance I reckon we (in common with most other practices) will be looking at cutting the cost of prescribed medication from around £200 per registered patient per year (~£2,000,000 for a practice of 10 thousand) to around £180, largely through these switches to older generic drugs.
This is a £200,000 'saving', which if replicated across the country would mean potentially ~£1 billion saved on prescription meds.
I have some reservations about a few of the switches, and it's a lot of work that I'd rather spend face-to-face with patients but I guess it's necessary.
Some of this saving will be gobbled up by rampant inflation, but I would like to believe it will lead to better care/services for patients.
I certainly don't expect to see any increase in my pay for some years (which has been static since the rather pleasing increase in 2005 and 2006...) and expect it to actually fall slightly as income is static and staff and premises costs will inexorably rise.
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We had our prescriptians changed Lygonos.My wife was put on cheaper tablets which caused her a lot of problems.
Also in my case tablets I could't swallow properly and now back to capsules.
I hope you are right for better care for patients.If you have reservations regarding the switches I presume you are a doctor, it can be worrying which way this is going.
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>>>>She likened it to preventitive medicine.
This is the biggest healthcare lie ever sold!<<
I was talking about maintaining people in their homes as in the situation I described, so I presume you believe that care homes are cheaper than home care solutions given you think its a lie?
On the subject mentioned further on, I see you mention cheaper drugs. My nan was taking MST, then 3 months ago they switched her to this odd sounding stuff, began with a 'Z' I think, Im sure you will know the one.
When she had a rapid decrease in appetite and thirst, heading in the way of dehydration, her GP said ' we have been having trouble with these cheaper pills. ill stick you back on the MST' - problem solved. Have to wonder what tests they do on the stuff, but great that her GP was on the ball about it too.
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My letter told me to have bloods done as a check all is well six week after I switch drugs, so at least there is a follow up.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 20:18
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>>My letter told me to have bloods done as a check all is well six week after I switch drugs, so at least there is a follow up
That'll probably be either a cholesterol lowering drug (statin) or a change in blood pressure lowering medication (usually switching XXXXsartan to YYYpril).
Because different drugs are broken down differently by people it's best to ensure the liver and kidneys respectively don't object to the medicine change.
Stu's comment about the change from MST to Zomorph isn't because Zomorph is bad, but because it will release the morphine at a different rate to the usual tablet - morphine is very, very safe stuff used correctly but side effects usually relate to the dose, or changes in regular dose.
I don't have a BNF handy so I've no idea if Zomorph is cheaper (I presume it may well be)
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>>Stu's comment about the change from MST to Zomorph isn't because Zomorph is bad, but because it will release the morphine at a different rate to the usual tablet - morphine is very, very safe stuff used correctly but side effects usually relate to the dose, or changes in regular dose.<<
Her GP specifically said he had several instances of this change of pills causing loss of appetite and lessening thirst, he said the reasons arent clear and it wasnt with everyone but more prevelant in the elderly. He did say that the change to Zomorph was done on a cost basis but they were switching people back from them if problems arose.
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Stu,
I was referring to any plan that suggests spending more money now will somehow lead to money being saved in the future - this must always be viewed with some suspicion.
I've seen examples where families have managed to convince Social Work to fund major house changes (up to, and including adding an extra accessible bedroom and bathroom) of 10-20grand to avoid nursing home care - the patient maybe lives another year and dies.
The family then have an even bigger house to sell and none of the 'added value' is recoverable by SW.
There is nothing underhand about this, it's just difficult to look after people cheaply unless you let volunteers (the family usually!) do it.
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Im sure there may well be people who do that 'fiddle' but most of what my nan has got has got has been handles, a stand aid ( brilliant things ) and her move downstairs is esp to accomadate a hospital style bed they OT says she needs.
The house itself is sprawling so no need for an extension, although if they offer anyway... :-)
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Been away for a day and totally confused by the tread drift on this --- :-)
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>> Been away for a day and totally confused by the tread drift on this ---
>> :-)
>>
Don't worry Rob we know whats going on and are behaving ourselves. :)
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In the last 15 mths I have had around £100,000 spent on me by the NHS. Only once did I hear ££s mentioned.
I had scans, cameras + a BIG operation. Coming off morphine drip to morphine tablets, then to non morphine - Pain nurse was poor, Pain Consultant said give him XXXXX, A this the pain nurse said - they cost £30+ each! I offered to pay which made her feel worse as the consultant gave her a look that put her down. 5 days later I walked out of hospital at a cost of say £30,000+
The big money was in the chemo - 1 x infusion every 3 weeks @ £1,000 + £200/day for 8 tablets x 6 month course - 14+ other tablets per day but they were pennies each apart from 2/3 which were £s
Thanks to Drs, Surgeon, Nurses etc and all you British Taxpayers
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You and everyone getting treatment is welcome to my money like this when needed. Who knows one day I might need it too.
This is why the NHS should not be privatised. But I can see an argument why some treatments should not be free.
I know many benefit from fertility treatment and I think it should be offered. But there was recently someone who'd had treatment and finally got pregnant. Then decided she did not want children anymore so had an abortion. So this sort of person should have been better vetted. Just my opinion.
And this woman is not the only one:
www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7806740/Dozens-of-woman-are-having-abortions-following-fertility-treatment.html
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 21:44
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Far more common that this is the number of people who wish to have sterilisation reversed (usually as a result of a new relationship after the previous one failed, very rarely as a result of losing a living child).
Except in the latter scenario this is generally an operation that must be self-funded.
Sterilisation is still free (mandatory perhaps?) ;-)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 16 Sep 11 at 21:54
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No-one has a right to have children, IVF should not be funded by the NHS under any circumstances.
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Depends how our lawyer chums interpret -
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights#Article_12_-_marriage
I could have no difficulty supporting the cessation of free IVF - a good number of people do pay the NHS for their treatment as they already have children, or have had a successful IVF preganacy previously (most of the cost is for the drugs to gather eggs) at around £3000 a shot, with a 20-25% success rate per cycle (on a good day with a following wind)
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>> No-one has a right to have children, .
So where does the NHS stop? IVF might be costly compared with say a new car but what about other treatments for people who have trouble conceiving?
I'm almost embarassed at the ease with which Miss Bromp and B junior were placed on the stocks. OTOH it took some fifties level intervention to jump start me and my sister.
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>> >> No-one has a right to have children, .
>>
>> So where does the NHS stop? IVF might be costly compared with say a new
>> car but what about other treatments for people who have trouble conceiving?
In this field, the NHS should not start.
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>> In this field, the NHS should not start.
>>
I agree Z.
It can become a slippery slope, it is not too far from a certain European countries projects during the last century.
United States of Europe anyone?
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>>United States of Europe anyone?<<
Long live President Van Humpty Dumpty!
Actually, Frau Merkel is the real power.
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>> Actually, Frau Merkel is the real power.
>>
Oh them again.
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>> Oh them again.
>>
Blimey ON, you don't think they're going for a hat trick?
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Someone is trying to run Europe, war didn't work, so................
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They were unlucky to lose the last two. Good start, lack of stamina.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 13:44
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And each time our stamina was provided by the USA. I would not trust them to bail us out of anything if it was not in their best interest.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 17 Sep 11 at 13:48
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>> They were unlucky to lose the last two. Good start, lack of stamina.
>>
The last one failed because they picked on too many people at once. If Op Barbarossa wasn't initiated when it was (or at all) things would have been a bit different Herr Zero.
.... and/or their Far Eastern friends sending in a load of Zeros at Pearl Harbour.
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Public Service Pensions and Strikes - Old Navy
