I have a number of computers in the house that I'd like networked.
2x Desktop with XP
2x Desktop with Windows 7
1x Desktop with Vista
2x Laptop with Windows 7
And I know nothing about windows networking.
I'm guessing Home Groups won't do it because of the XP machines but I can't see how to set up Workgroups on the W7 machines.
I really don't care about a purist solution, what I really want is all the machines to be able to share a set of directories which sit on one of the W7 desktops, and for that machine to be able to read/write to a directory on each of the other machines.
However, at times there are other machines using the WiFi and I don't want them to have access to anything.
There are also two iPads, but I suspect that's going too far.
I know its a huge question, but even a starting point would be welcome.
Thanks,
Mark.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 14 Aug 12 at 16:36
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>> I know its a huge question, but even a starting point would be welcome.
>>
try this post and the rest of that thread:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=11370&m=252382&v=e
>> However, at times there are other machines using the WiFi and I don't want them to have access to anything. >>
will have to think about that one.
Last edited by: John H on Tue 14 Aug 12 at 16:52
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That's certainly a good start, thanks I'll have a start with that.
In a perfect world I would have two levels of access to the LAN here. One where I am able to allow someone access to the WiFi which gives them printer and internet. And then the second which would ideally be a further password allowing access to the files on the machines.
However, lets see how far I get with this first.
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What do you mean by networking?
1. Do you want to share files among the PCs via shared folders?
It might be easier if you attach a NAS (Network Attached Storage) disk to your router then all computers can access it (while on same WiFi).
2. Do you want to connect from one computer to another via Remote Desktop?
Then you can install TeamViewer (or LogMeIn or similar) in all the computers.
3. Do you want to create a true network like they do in offices?
This is a proper network and I don't know how to do it.
Case 1 and 2 do not require any network set up at all.
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>> 3. Do you want to create a true network like they do in offices?
If you've got a switch and/or wifi connecting computers then that is a 'proper' network. :-)
If you mean proper user accounts (e.g. active directory for Windows) with a domain and then you can have full control over shares etc then you'd need to introduce something like Active Directory or another LDAP service. AD needs a Windows server which will cost. And home variants of Windows XP/Vista/XP cannot join a domain either.
The OP mentions 'guest' type access to the Internet. Some routers support the concept of two levels of access. The Apple Airport Express does just that.
store.apple.com/us/product/MC414LL/A?fnode=4d
Other routers must do it as well. This way the home network can have less strict security. The alternative is to restrict shares with passwords which gives some level of security.
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Let me try to explain;
The children have a computer each which are XP machines and used for internet, e-mail, games and media.
The majority of the media is held on my machine, although some is on theirs.
My machine is used for recreational stuff, and confidential stuff. Some of the stuff I deal with is extremely confidential, to the point I am not even supposed to discuss it with my wife. (its commercial rather than anything even vaguely James-Bondy).
My wife has a laptop, which has work and recreational, and is private to her, rather than confidential. She also has an iPad, may she be forgiven.
There are other machines used periodically by other people.
I need everybody to be able to see and manipulate the media on my machine, but not able to see or manipulate anything else.
I need to be able to see and manipulate anything on any machine from mine.
Everybody else needs to be able to share stuff between them.
All printers and scanners are shared.
There are 3 WiFi routers/access points in the house, 2 switches, and all the televisions (10) are networked either through their own capability (a couple of Bravas) or because they have media streamers attached.
With the exception of 3 TVs which are connected to the XBox, Wii and Playstation and all have internet access.
One way or another all the TVs, media streamers and games machines (not the Wii) need to be able to stream media from my machine.
I've got it working, but its very messy and the XP machines are a constant issue. I'm also concerned about how secure my confidential stuff is. Nobody would deliberately do anything, but you know how kids are.
I could replace the XP machines, but the kids are young and I'm loth to spend anything much on machines for them for a year or two.
I did try a NAS, which would have solved all the issues and concerns, but the performance was absolutely dire. It was a Dell device with 4x 2TB disks.
Maybe I should revisit the NAS idea.
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I would definitely consider a NAS and put all media to be shared on that. Most will be DNLA compliant to help streaming/sharing of media. Probably work from some of the TVs without anything extra.
I'm not sure when you last tried a NAS. Mine would probably handle what you are asking - it's a Netgear ReadyNAS Duo and the later ones are faster still. There are larger version - you mention RAID 5 4x2Tb. Mine connects to the LAN via Gigabit Ethernet and accessible via wifi from the router.
From what you describe of your machine I wouldn't be sharing anything from it just in case. And if you centralise all media/files for sharing you know where to look. A folder for movies, another for music etc.
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As an aside, I don't use RAID at all, and one of the annoying things about the Dell was that you couldn't turn it off.
RAID is for availability, and does not help data security at all. Within reason availability is not critical, whereas data integrity and security is.
But you're right, perhaps the correct answer is stick all the share stuff on a NAS and keep all the machines secure. And now you ask, I think it was about 4 years ago that I last tried the NAS.
Certainly sounds easier.
Thank you all for your trouble, any further thoughts welcome.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 15 Aug 12 at 16:52
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When I looked into this 2 years ago I concluded the ReadyNAS Duo was best for me. And the deal I got was the device with an extra free 2Gb drive in the box from where I bought it. And another 2Gb drive free via voucher from Netgear. It came with a 2Gb drive anyway. So the extra 2Gb drive is used in a USB enclosure to backup the mirrored device to. I personally want RAID here. But know if a file is corrupt, deleted or even the file system itself has issues you lose.
So I'd consider a ReadyNAS if choosing again. And there's plenty of others on the market too. I ruled out what some would claim was brilliant (the Drobo) because performance was poor, and with a Drobo Share needed to make it into a NAS it was expensive.
Some features on this you might not need/want but the add-ons to the original ReadyNAS (Netgear bought them) were handy. This is based on a Linux implementation on a SPARC processor - latest ones use an Intel CPU but there are fewer addons but it's faster. Some examples of useful things on the NAS which remains on:
- DNLA server
- Music server (I'd have to look up which one it is as I don't use it)
- BitTorrent client (handy to leave it downloading 'stuff')
- Photos server
Obviously does file sharing via SMB (Windows client/server), AFP (Apple), FTP, HTTP/HTTPS, NFS.
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Do you mean TB, 2GB doesn't seem likely.
How about using an older desktop as a file server?
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Would that not give you the same inter-operating system access issues you imply at the outset?
NAS seems a good plan. I have Thecus N2200Plus with 2 x 3Tb drives configured as one (gives something over 5Gb usable). Gigabit to the router, but the limitation is the cabling from the router to wherever (now, for me, Powerlines - except true Gigabit between my own PC and the NAS).
I wouldn't recommend or not recommend the Thecus over any other, but it is quick - has dual processor which helps write speeds, and two network ports which run on different subnets. I only have slow speed drives in it. (5400s). Not really sure why the two subnets but in my case I was able to run a cable directly from my PC to the NAS therefore maximising performance.
It serves all my media and also is the backup device for all PCs - to a single folder which occasionally gets copied to a large USB drive which I keep offsite. (I have set up everyone's PC with AllWaySync so once in a while, when they remember, it updates their data on the NAS - being a sync it is a lot quicker than a backup...).
You can get additional modules for it to do all the stuff Rob says - not an area I know much about, but I did manage to get to it once from my phone when at work. it has good power management i.e. sleeps when idle for a while, and comes back quick enough.
You can obviously set up different shares with different access and permissions which might help you.
For me, it freed up a bunch of 1 Tb USB drives which I eBayed. I still have the old Western Digital NAS (2Tb) but it is considerably slower - only 100Mb connection - and barely gets used now.
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>>Would that not give you the same inter-operating system access issues you imply at the outset?
No, for two reasons. Firstly because I wouldn't have Windows on it, and secondly because each computer could connect to that server in its own way. It wouldn't need to be a multi-way all things to all computers web approach.
Additionally, its a holiday here and the shops are closed. If I use a Unix File Server I can carry playing on this afternoon. If I go the NAS way I'm stuck till tomorrow.
I'm kind of an "if I want, I want now" sort of guy.
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Yes of course I do mean TB. Sorry. And if I had meant GB I still typed Gb!
I did think of suggesting an old desktop (not too old) - there's a few NAS type Linux based solution you could try.
The old PC route is no different to using a NAS based on Linux - which most of them are. I wouldn't use a desktop OS like Windows XP on the old desktop to try to make it into a NAS device.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 15 Aug 12 at 19:34
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>>Sorry. And if I had meant GB I
>> still typed Gb!
>>
;)
Not to worry. IT experts get their B and b, M and m, and G & T mixed up all the time.
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>>
>> How about using an older desktop as a file server?
>>
An idea I've considered, with a couple of 3GHz P4s knocking around doing little, but I suspect energy costs would mount up; must get round to doing some sums on this.
there's always the microserver approach:-
www.hotukdeals.com/deals/hp-proliant-n40l-microserver-239-139-with-hp-cashback-amazon-1283783
yes i know 200 notes would buy a lot of electricity for the P4 :-)
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>Some of the stuff I deal with is extremely confidential,
Our company CIO would blow a head gasket if he discovered someone was even thinking about allowing external access to their machine through shares.
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>> Our company CIO
>>
and FM2R would not be so strange bedfellows.
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I don't know what business he's in.
I can tell you that my company laptop has to have loads of security stuff. Full hard drive encryption with pre-boot password. The usual virus/firewall protection plus Endpoint protection and monitoring.
It slows things down (especially booting) but it can be quite interesting to see how often Windows tries to pass information back to Bill, especially when it sees a new device.
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Kevin
My laptop is the same - as it should. Full disk encryption from boot which needs a logon before it boots. And then the usual security like AV, firewall, etc. If the security software signatures are out of date you then cannot VPN into the network. etc.
And if you work on certain accounts all emails/documents need to also be PGP encrypted. I've not mentioned security accreditation of individuals too. But that too is necessary to work on certain pieces of work.
It will be similar for any decent IT company. If not, why not.
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I'll add I used to use my laptop a bit more for personal use and still do. But with all the auditing and the fact I have home PCs/Mac etc. then I tend not to. Not up to no good or anything but it is monitoring more and more that we look at! Big brother and all that.
Happy to work here still. Not forever but they do pay in 20% of salary to my pension on top of my contribution. For now.
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>>It will be similar for any decent IT company. If not, why not.
Because some of them take a different, and safer approach. One can spend time, money and effort trying to technically tie down a disk which holds confidential data and then is taken out of secure premises.
Pedantically I suspect that you mean the IT group of a company, rather than an IT company, which are typically awful.
A better approach is to prevent the confidential data being removed from the secure environment in the first place. In order to understand that, you need to consider who is using a laptop, why they are using a laptop, the alternatives and the cost and value inherent in that facility.
There are also approaches where the only facility the laptop carries is the ability to access the place the data is held, not the data itself.
However, these are usually somewhat too imaginative for the majority of environments.
A good starting point is this; Why does this person need a laptop? I know reasons why people want one, why it suits them, why it suits their company, but I know of only two reasons why someone would NEED a laptop.
Encryption is typically a way of making people feel better about the risk that they are taking.
And it is some years since I was last a CIO, I have moved on.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 17 Aug 12 at 00:39
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Mark I am talking about regular contracts for most of what I describe. And PGP on top for some more secure contracts. But for the more secure you cannot have documents stored on a laptop/desktop at all. So you have to work in certain buildings on those accounts to do anything.
I was saying ALL laptops and desktops have encryption. For some secure account PGP email/files/drives is acceptable. And it goes on from there.
I am not saying this is for secure users. Most of this is for ALL users. And here's you talking about sharing files form your machine to the family - quite quaint ;-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 17 Aug 12 at 01:05
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And before I got to use it, I briefly had a second laptop to access more secure systems last year.... project changed for me. It had four levels of user authentication including two different key fobs before you got anywhere. And the laptop was secure if lost too (again full disk encryption). A keyfob (RSA) with rolling codes was needed to boot it up to logon to the disk encryption logon. And another key fob was needed later.
And then a minister leaves a laptop on a train.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 17 Aug 12 at 01:10
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I've worked for one of the big banks as an IT project manager. When we had laptops, there was no data on your laptop at all, but it was all encrypted etc anyway. There was also no way to use the laptop for anything other than work needs (well, I suppose you could browse a few websites such as BBC, but that was about it - no access to the drivers on your laptop to save anything).
Then a group-wide decision was made that only absolutely essential laptop users retained laptops - which for mobile IT PMs trying to implement change in the business brought difficulties - but sure tightened their security! Whilst being a pain for work reasons, I soon realised how pleasant it was to not have to lug the thing, plus power supply, around with me. From home I'd use secure tunnels on my own PC and in work use whatever machine happened to be at the hotdesk - could be a PC or a Wyse terminal. When at home, there was no printing to my local printer, nor copying anything from the work session onto my own computer. It all seemed pretty secure to me.
judging by some of the resistance we received to removing laptops, I think for many NoFM2R's fourth reason exists - the status of being a laptop user.
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 17 Aug 12 at 07:38
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Got your point, but arguably there should be NO encryption on laptops except for communication.
You couldn't lose a laptop with important data on it if there was no important data on it, if you see what I mean.
Allowing a laptop to carry sensitive data because there is some level of security on it is frequently giving a false sense of comfort encouraging quite in appropriate behaviour.
There's pretty much three reasons why people have laptops with confidential data;
--Somebody is saving money, or at least believes that they are.
--Somebody hasn't thought it through.
--Somebody is skiving or incompetent.
There used to be 4 reasons, but I'm assuming nobody actually thinks a laptop is a status symbol anymore.
Not that there is no value in those three reasons, but usually there are better ways and people don't consider the risks.
And the most secure is no laptops with sensitive or confirdential data at all.
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>>And then a minister leaves a laptop on a train.
Exactly.
Although quite why anyone would trust a minister with confidential data is beyond me.
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>And here's you talking about sharing files form your machine to the family - quite quaint ;-)
Mmm, well. Because I control physical and electronic access to the machines and the network. You would need to have physical access to my house to get to anything.
However, its a fair point.
And then you could rifle my drawers anyway.
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>> Because I control physical and electronic access to the machines and the network
So none of the computers, especially the childrens' connect to the Internet? If one got a virus or trojan then it could threaten other computers. If they are running on Windows then there's plenty of security holes. And security software is not infallible.
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>>If they are running on Windows then there's plenty of security holes. And security software is not infallible.
You are absolutley correct, but in the real world that may not be the most important thing.
People rarely start wth the person they want to attack, the file they want to get, or the password they want to break. If they do, and the target is me, then I'm screwed - eventually. I can make it hard or time consuming, but they will get me in the end.
They start randolmy looking for anything; a password, a file, a computer, belonging to anyone. When they find something available, they will then go after it.
You can liken it to fishing in a lake; If you decide to go after a particular fish, you will eventually get it however hard it hides. But that's not usually what people do, typically they go fishing for any fish and catch the one that ends up on the line thorwn into an area where the fisherman believe he is mosy likely to find potentential catches.
If you accept that analogy then clearly what you should (and perhaps all you can) defend yourself against is a fishing expedition. And no one fishing will catch me or my machines wihtout deliberately coming after me.
I would only worry about defending myself agaiinst a personal attack from someone within the perimeter, as it were. So I am more cncerned with keeping an individual file, or disk for that matter, secure against someone intentionally havng a go from the LAN. I defend myself against fishermen from the WAN or internet.
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>And no one fishing will catch me or my machines wihtout deliberately coming after me...
Do you really believe that?
Do you really believe that your Netgear/Cisco/Brand-X internet access point is totally secure?
No open ports with as-yet-unpatched buffer/range overflow/protocol vulnerabilities that can be exploited after a port scan?
When was the last time you checked and upgraded the firmware on your routers?
>I defend myself against fishermen from the WAN or internet.
That is practically impossible I'm afraid.
Zero day attacks against browsers, Add-ons, etc. injected into perfectly legitimate websites are not unknown and are, to all intents and purposes, impossible to protect against.
Your kids visit a forum at rlbs.org to chat with old friends and you're compromised as soon as you connect your laptop to the LAN.
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Kevin, you're saying what I tried to. We can do our best but if you're connected to the Internet using consumer routers then it's not the best is it. And then if you visit a dodgy website you could be infected and quickly infect other machines.
But we can't all have proper firewalls at home in a DMZ etc. Well we could but it would cost and need managing.
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There is little point in me repeating my post which was, for once, pretty coherent and explanatory.
I'm guessing you're an IT Techie?
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Yes - the odds of being compromised if you take precautions are small. But they are still there.
Back to the original question - the fact there are some important file on your machine then I'd have a NAS to hold all shared files. As you know that could be a PC running appropriate software. It can be left on 24x7 and it doesn't matter if your machine is available or not.
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I think you're right on the NAS. I shall have a go at UNIX on an old desktop and then retreat to buying a purpose designed NAS box if I don't get anywhere.
Thanks for your hel.
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Installing a Linux based NAS will be simple. Installing Linux on my first PC in 1993 involved specifying how the monitor was refreshed - it was possible to break it. If you could do the maths and knew the bandwidth of the monitor it was fine and interesting or useful resolutions were possible.
Having mentioned Linux, FreeNAS is BSD based (as is MacOS).
www.freenas.org
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 17 Aug 12 at 23:23
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>There is little point in me repeating my post which was, for once, pretty coherent and explanatory.
Yes, there's no misunderstanding here.
You have a machine that you want to allow your kid's PCs to access over a LAN but also potentially "other machines used periodically by other people."
You have limited or no control over which websites they visit.
Some of the data on your machine is "extremely confidential, to the point I am not even supposed to discuss it with my wife."
You ask for advice and then try to lecture us on info security?
>I'm guessing you're an IT Techie?
I'm guessing you aren't?
Last edited by: Kevin on Fri 17 Aug 12 at 23:30
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I hope he doesn't work for anyone important Kevin. I must say I was glad I didn't have to use my secure laptop in the end for any length of time. Contract/project changes. But people do use these day-in-day-out and there is no alternative.
The infrastructure was not in place to get into my systems but from power on it needed about 4 separate logon stages, some with SecurID type keyfobs. Depended if you were on a secure Internal network (our building) or not. If not then it was more than if you were.
But this laptop was meant to access secure UK government systems so that's fine by me
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>I hope he doesn't work for anyone important Kevin.
I have no idea rtj, but I was a bit miffed about the dismissive "I'm guessing you're an IT Techie?".
Where is Zero when you want to 'debate' Windows security?
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>> I have no idea rtj, but I was a bit miffed about the dismissive "I'm
>> guessing you're an IT Techie?".
>>
;-)
Was he rude? If so, he probably meant it.
"These days I'm trying to only be rude when I mean to be,... "
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=11608&m=258308
>> Where is Zero when you want to 'debate' Windows security?
>>
he ain't coming back unless you pay the ransom.
>>I hope he doesn't work for anyone important Kevin.
He has given hints about his varied recent work, since moving on from Wireless.
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John,
I'd appreciate you leaving the occupational "hints" at that point. Although I do appreciate the support.
Mark.
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Why would it matter whether or not I work for someone important?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 18 Aug 12 at 01:40
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>>I'm guessing you're an IT Techie?
>
>I'm guessing you aren't?
I was. And if I can liken the IT personnel of today as frequently fitters or the better ones as mechanics, then I was the guy designing the engines.
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>>I was a bit miffed about the dismissive "I'm guessing you're an IT Techie?".
Why? Because you're not, or you are and are ashamed of it?
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>>Installing Linux on my first PC in 1993
Oh, a latecomer.
I installed Unix on my first cluster in about 1985. I presume you know what a cluster is?
I was teaching myself UNIX while on a break from the secure TEMPEST facility in the UK.
Surely that makes my willy bigger than yours? This is a ****** contest, right?
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 5 Sep 12 at 01:40
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Anyway, thanks to all of those who helped, and it really helped. NAS is going to be the way. I've got the Unix machine working, but its flakey and I need the kids to be able to maintain it, so It'll be off to the store for a NAS tomorow - if I can just find one without any form of RAID.
I leave the rest of you to mourn my sad misunderstanding of the world of security and risk.
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>> I installed Unix on my first cluster in about 1985. I presume you know what a cluster is?
Yes I do. I was 15 in 1985 so didn't get near clusters then ;-) Hard to build one at a home computer in the 80s.
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For goodness sakes man, you could have strapped 3 or 4 ZX81s together, where's your ingenuity.
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Easier to connect two Atari ST's via the midi ports ;-) Now that could have worked!
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I remember a guy in the 80s who was into using the midi port to program a synthesiser and was going to make his fortune selling it around the world.
It was unbelievably complicated, I wonder if he ever made any money.
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In 1990 I had to write in assembly a file transfer program that used the Atari midi ports. Did error correction and all sorts. That was a university project. :-)
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0111001001100101011000010110110000100000011011010110010101101110001000
0001110101011100110110010100100000011011010110000101100011011010000110
10010110111001100101001000000110001101101111011001000110010100101110
[Real men use machine code]
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 18 Aug 12 at 17:32
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I used to write machine code for the Spectrum using a FOR-NEXT loop using POKE and DATA statements. I used to disassemble machine code with a loop printing out memory contents (using PEEK) and writing down the mnemonics. Seem to recall LDA was 62 in decimal.
;-)
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I used to play Blaster on a Spectrum and beat my sister every time.
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>I was teaching myself UNIX while on a break from the secure TEMPEST facility in the UK.
>Surely that makes my willy bigger than yours? This is a ****** contest, right?
I worked on TEMPEST as well. Specifically, the integration, testing and debugging of security extensions (B3) to the UNIX kernel.
Then on the optical interconnects between the servers and desktop. Those horrible terminals, printers, keyboards and card readers enclosed in CE shrouds that looked like they'd been knocked up in someone's garage and sprayed battleship grey.
To stick with your auto mechanic analogy, I was the one fixing the flaws in your engine design.
I'm pretty sure that I also installed the first permanent machine to act as an IP gateway between the MOD and US DoD. It was a Pyramid 90Xs that I installed in a Portacabin at an MOD site in the Midlands. The TCP code was sent over in source and needed modification before it would compile successfully with the "Dual Universe" OS on the Pyramid (SVR3 and BSD).
I don't know how big rtj's UNIX willy is but I don't think you'll be winning any medals either.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 5 Sep 12 at 01:40
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>>I was the one fixing the flaws in your engine design.
Flaws ?? Flaws !!
Go and wash your mouth out with soap.
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>Why? Because you're not, or you are and are ashamed of it?
Yes, I'm an IT Techie but I have nothing to be ashamed about.
I'm not the one professing to be an IT Security expert asking how to open up my machine to share data with the Windows PCs my kids use to surf the net.
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Kevin,
Calm down dear, its just a forum.
I think you're taking this all a little bit seriously.
By "I take it your a Techie" I meant simply this; in my experience Techies try to solve a problem absolutely, whereas there are other areas which take a more pragmatic and real world view. A prime example would be passwords.
As for the rest, you're quite correct rtj70 are waving willies at each other. And I don't think he's taking it any more seriously than I (lets hope he doesn't contradict me). For goodness sakes we're waving machine code and FOR/NEXT loops on a Spectrum; just how serious do you think we're being? (other than we both know that mines bigger!!)
Now, I hope that is clearer, and lets remember, we are here to relax and have fun. Albeit quite "stimulating" at times.
And if you can take a gentle prod, I'm glad you were working on Tempest. I always hope to have good techies working for my managers.
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It's just taken me ages to open this thread but it's all Greek to me!
Pat
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>> It's just taken me ages to open this thread but it's all Greek to me!
>>
>> Pat
>>
It's just men comparing willies, Pat.
There's nothing to see.
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Ah yes Duncan, there never is when they do that:)
Those who have it don't have to flaunt it in my experience!
Pat
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>> Those who have IT don't have to flaunt IT in my experience!
>>
>> Pat
>>
willie waving - very common in the IT industry.
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Pat, if you're on the road and see a fellow trucker you know coming the other way do you give them a quick flash of the lights?
Male etiquette is very similar.
If someone waves his willy at you it would be rude not to wave back wouldn't it?
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>>If someone waves his willy at you it would be rude not to wave back wouldn't it?
Oh, were you waving? I thought you were smoking.
And I am now currently dealing with the image of Pat giving a quick flash to the other driver.
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Smoking?
Don't you mean "Smokin!"
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No adequate response possible. You win.
Thanks for the laugh!. I'm still grinning.
Git.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 19 Aug 12 at 20:34
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>> It's just men comparing willies, Pat.
>>
>> There's nothing to see.
Made me laugh out loud.
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Home Networking.... - John H
