I built our home PC just over a year ago, and although on the whole I'm happy with it, it does suffer from the, er, slight problem that it crashes every now and again.
Now it's not that big a problem because I don't use it :) However, son does and the slamming of his bedroom door is starting to get a bit annoying.
I initially suspected the cheap ebuyer memory, but I've changed that for proper branded stuff and that hasn't helped. I don't think it's software - sometimes after it crashes it crashes again after restart during the startup process, and might do that a few times. Then it 'settles down'.
I reckon it's hardware. It's a fairly uncomplicated setup - 1TB HD, CD/DVD, ATI 5770 graphics card, Netgear USB Wifi adapter thingy, AMD X3 processor, 4GB RAM, Windows 7 Home 32 bit (reinstalled not that long ago).
I've googled the messages displayed when it crashes - not always the same, and they don't seem to point to anything obvious.
Dodgy motherboard?
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When you say crash is it the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD). If so what are the errors. It should produce a memory dump (if enabled) when it blue screens and this can help diagnose the component causing the problem.
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I may suspect a dodgy power supply, especially as it crashes a few times during periods of heavy demand i.e "starting-up".
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Have you got every M/Board fixing hole screwed to every brass stand off to ensure good grounding?
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>> Have you got every M/Board fixing hole screwed to every brass stand off to ensure
>> good grounding?
Will have a look...
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>> >> Have you got every M/Board fixing hole screwed to every brass stand off to
>> >> ensure good grounding?
>>
>> Will have a look...
Pretty sure they're all there - counted at least 5. Can't see any empty holes.
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>> Pretty sure they're all there - counted at least 5. Can't see any empty holes.
There should be 6.
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>> >> Pretty sure they're all there - counted at least 5. Can't see any empty holes.
>>
>> There should be 6.
I think there's one hiding under the graphics card. If I did 5, it's likely I did 6 assuming there are 6.
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 6 Mar 12 at 13:56
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>> assuming there are 6.
According to the manual there are 6
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>> >> assuming there are 6.
>>
>> According to the manual there are 6
I believe you! :)
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>> I may suspect a dodgy power supply, especially as it crashes a few times during
>> periods of heavy demand i.e "starting-up".
Did consider that, but unless the PSU is faulty (which it might well be) it should be ok given the fairly minimal set of kit it's powering. This is the PSU (and case):
www.ebuyer.com/135101-coolermaster-elite-330-case-with-coolermaster-elite-460w-psu-special-offer-rc-330-460w
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 6 Mar 12 at 12:58
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Ok its an asus M/board, so it came with the asus monitoring s/w to measure m/board & cpu temps, AND the PSU voltages. Have you installed that? if not it would be a good idea.
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>> Have you installed that? if not it would be a good idea.
I have looked at some temperatures using some utility (looked ok), don't think it was the Asus one. But yes, it would be a good idea to try it and I will do so.
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>> If so what are the errors.
Those are the ones I mentioned that I'd googled. They don't stay on the screen for long - if you can give me the name of a file where they're logged I can be more precise.
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I suppose I ought to try removing the graphics card and using the built-in VGA to rule that out. And disconnect the CD/DVD.
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You can tell Windows to halt after a BSOD. And change how it logs. Should do at least a mini-dump.
- Click on Computer in the start menu and go to Properties.
- Select Advanced System Settings on the left.
- Under Startup and Recovery click on Settings
- Change the System Failure options to not automatically restart - you can then read the error message
- Change the Write debugging info to at least be kernel memory dump
The dump file(s) are written by default to the system root folder (e.g. C:WINDOWS).
You may find reading the whole crash message it tells you the driver that caused it - if it is a driver.
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How repeatable is it - is it random or when it's been on for a while. Another thing to rule out is Windows itself so you could boot from a Linux LiveCD and leave it run for a bit. Only an approach if the crash normally happens quite frequently.
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>> How repeatable is it - is it random or when it's been on for a
>> while.
Not too sure because son uses it 99% of the time and he doesn't tend to be that forthcoming with useful info. But it's pretty infrequent as I understand it ie. won't necessarily happen at all on any particular day, and appears 'random', apart from the times when it goes into a crash-during-startup phase as mentioned above. But I'll quiz him when he gets home later.
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Of course, you could just stop being a meanie and buy him a new one!
Pat
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>> Of course, you could just stop being a meanie and buy him a new one!
He should count himself lucky to have a PC in his room at all! The fact that it at even works sometimes is a bonus. Jeez, when I were a lad... :)
Anyway, he spends too much time on it, although he's into electronic music composition at the moment rather than just playing games so we're not too bothered.
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>> You can tell Windows to halt after a BSOD. And change how it logs. Should
>> do at least a mini-dump.
Thanks - I'll give that a go.
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With my experience of my son's PC, any computer used in a bedroom needs the cooling fins of the processor heatsink / graphics card heatsink and the cooling fans blown clear of fluff and gunk every 6 to 8 months!
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Asus monitoring thingy installed but no more crashes yet. Son reports max CPU temps in the mid 30s which is ok.
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Ok, now it's crashed. Son said he saw the CPU temperature up to 40, but AFAIK that's still fine.
And now it won't start up - get nothing on the monitor, and it's not possible to go into the BIOS. I can hear the fan(s) start up, then about 2 seconds later it sounds like it's starting up again, and this just repeats.
I held the power button in to switch it off then turned it on again. Although it did the 2 second cycle thing again, I could initially hear what sounded like disk access, and that carried on for more than 2 seconds, possibly 5 or 6. So perhaps the 2 second cycle isn't actually a crash-retsart cycle.
I do wonder if it might be a PSU problem as suggested earlier, although to start with I'm going to try pulling out the graphics card and CD/DVD drive to see if that makes any difference.
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At the moment the symptoms sound exactly like a stuck on/off switch
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Mmm... well I took out the graphics card, and now it sounds a lot happier, but I've not got anything on the display. The motherboard does have onboard graphics and a DVI output which I've connected the monitor to, but it's possible I have to go into the BIOS to tell it to revert to onboard. Or perhaps I have to reset the BIOS to defaults manually. Or perhaps it is using onboard but there's nothing to display because something's still knacked. Time to read the manual.
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Used the jumper on the mboard to clear its settings, powered up but still nothing on the display. FWIW will try using the mboard VGA output, if I can find a VGA-DVI adaptor...
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Found a VGA cable and now into Windows (using onboard graphics). But as son points out if you leave PC long enough it eventually sorts itself out anyway (until next time), so not proved anything yet.
Will leave graphics card out for now and see if that helps.
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the act of taking the card out and then putting it back may well cure it, its not unknown.
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Left card out and son has been using it ok, albeit not playing games. Then he decided he needed to play something, and asked for the card to be put back in, so I did. Then a minute or 2 into his game, it crashed.
So it does appear to be card related - either the card itself, or something on the motherboard related to it?
Took the card out, cleared the motherboard settings and plugged the monitor into the motherboard VGA socket, and powered up - the sequence that appeared to clear the problem last time. Sounded like it was powering up, but nothing on the display, as before.
Hopefully it will clear itself again if we just leave it a while...
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Oh well - PC rebooted, son started using it (no graphics card), and it crashed.
Disconnected the CD/DVD drive; crashed again.
Oh dear.
Last edited by: Focus on Sat 10 Mar 12 at 20:27
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Take out the memory chips and put them back in different slots
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 11 Mar 12 at 00:02
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I replaced the memory a few months ago in the hope it might fix the crashing, but I'll give it a go - nothing ventured etc.
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ah yes I remember - you said.
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Forgot to say that the last 2 crashes gave an error message indicating a problem detected in win32k.sys, PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA. Googling gives this, which does sound very similar:
www.techspot.com/vb/topic48726.html
especially the penultimate post.
Regarding whether it's the ATI drivers, when I switched to using the onboard graphics, Windows detected the change and went away and downloaded the appropriate drivers. I would have thought it unlikely that the drivers for the external card and the onboard are both dodgy.
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Might be worth loading the memory dump file into a debug program.
I did type debugg er to start with without the space and the swear filter got it.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 11 Mar 12 at 10:14
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Yes, I know you did mention that earlier. I'll try that later when son gets up and I can get at the PC :)
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I said debug_er again....
.*********
It will tell you what caused the error. The last thing to run was not the cause in all likelihood. Almost certainly a device driver - which could still point at hardware begin the fault.
Back in NT 3.x days Microsoft made the wise decision to keep the kernel itself small and everything else ran in user mode including graphic drivers. Downside it had an impact on performance. To remedy this they moved graphic drivers to privileged kernel and speeded it up. And now if a graphic driver crashes it brings down to system - the tradeoff.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 11 Mar 12 at 12:59
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Display not coming up again now (onboard graphics), so can't do anything.
Still tending towards a new motherboard, although I'm by no means certain it will solve the problem. But I'm running out of ideas.
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If you can get at the dump file it will tell you a lot about what was happening before it crashed.
The fact it does not always start would suggest hardware. But you'd be guessing at the motherboard.
To progress this if it was mine and no starting up I'd:
- Unplug all drives
- Unplug any graphics card
- Unplug all USB/Firewire/etc devices including printer, mouse, keyboard etc.
- Remove the memory and put a single known working module back in
- Reset the BIOS to factory default
- Try to see if it comes on
Are there any lights on the motherboard for diagnostics? Are there any beeps?
EDIT: If it comes back on but no display.... can you see it on the network? e.g. can you ping it when it's been on for a few minutes?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 11 Mar 12 at 17:34
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Surely an abrupt halt caused by a hardware fault is unlikely to produce a Windows dump file?
I used to do core dump analysis for a living for a while and it was one thing doing it with disassembled opsys code and a good understanding of how the OS was working, but I've glanced at some Windows dumps and I don't think they'd be easily interpreted by many - or at least, not with the correct conclusion.
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>> Surely an abrupt halt caused by a hardware fault is unlikely to produce a Windows
>> dump file?
IIRC the message displayed on screen says something along the lines of Windows has detected a fault and has stopped to prevent damage; I think it also says something about dumping memory.
I'm just about to go up to son's room to have another go (inc. rtj's suggestions).
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If its coming up with a windows error, it sounds more and more like memory or cpu
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Well that's interesting. Disconnected the hard drive as well, turned on, fans start up, nothing on display.
Took out one of the 2x2GB RAM sticks - hah! Got a beep (wasn't before) and BIOS screen comes up. Going to try swapping sticks/slots.
Last edited by: Focus on Sun 11 Mar 12 at 20:07
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Other chip in same slot - also get BIOS.
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Both chips in, or either chip in the other slot - nothing.
One chip back in the first slot - BIOS.
Looks like the other RAM slot is the culprit.
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Have let son back on - 2GB and no graphics card - as the poor lad was starting to show signs of withdrawal. If it doesn't crash this evening it doesn't really prove anything, but if it does crash we at least know it's more complicated than just a problem with one memory slot.
Thanks for the help guys.
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BTW assuming the problem is the duff slot, if I go for a quick/cheap fix of sticking a 4GB stick in the remaining working slot, any idea whether son will notice the loss of dual channel-ness?
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I bet he won't notice much difference with only 2Gb. Is this 32-bit Windows? Also makes a difference.
In response to Smokie saying: "Surely an abrupt halt caused by a hardware fault is unlikely to produce a Windows dump file?"
Absolutely.... but if Windows is displaying an error and a BSOD then it's not a catastrophic failure and it wrote the message to screen so will have written a dump file.
I'm not convinced 100% it's the memory slot from the error reported above but I speed read the posts. But removing the memory could avoid the problem. It was a page fault in a non-paged area. To me that points at something like a graphic card that needs to use part of the 4Gb address space for Windows 32-bit and removing 2Gb means the problem memory space is no longer there.
What is the graphics card and how much memory does it have? And when was it added to the PC compared to when the problems occurred.
Before doing anything I'd tell the son it's now in a test period to see if this fixes it... and wait for him to grumble about performance on only 2Gb :-) But unless this is 64-bit Windows, if the discreet graphics card had 0.5Mb he'd only ever see 3.5Gb max out of the 4Gb. And even then a big chunk of that is not available to user code.
EDIT: So re-read and from "Both chips in, or either chip in the other slot - nothing." means its the slot then. I'd still wait to see how it runs with only the 2Gb DIMM for now.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 11 Mar 12 at 21:50
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It's 32 bit Windows 7. Card is AMD 5770 - to be honest can't remember whether it's 512MB or 1GB, although I think it's the latter. It was part of the PC build. The card was one of the first things I took out on Saturday.
I've already told son we're still experimenting, and he'll have to do without games (ie. the graphics card) for now. Judging from the weird noises coming out of his room earlier it hasn't affected his music composition :)
Of course we have been using both slots up to now with only the occasional crash.
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for some reason I suspected a 1Gb card. So that means of the 4Gb you could only hope to use 3Gb anyway the other 1Gb of memory address space is taken by the graphic card.
Like you're doing now I'd run as is for a while and add in the graphic card later... and make sure the latest AMD Radeon drivers are loaded too.
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will just one slot handle 4GB ram? - some have a limit on how much you can load in them. A Crucial scan will tell you the max loading.
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Hadn't thought of that, but the manual does state the board supports a max of 8GB in its 2 slots.
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>> So it does appear to be card related - either the card itself, or something
>> on the motherboard related to it?
The symptoms sound exactly like the problem we had with my son's MESH PC a year or so ago. Graphics card was faulty (no onboard video) so I replaced NVIDIA based graphics card with new one of much better spec for about £80 as recommended by PC Pro magazine. PC up and running again straight away but unfortunately mixing an AMD/ATI card with a NVIDIA based motherboard introduced some unexpected issues. So it's worth doing some research before buying a new card.
Last edited by: Victorbox on Mon 12 Mar 12 at 15:00
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>> So it's worth doing some research before buying a new card.
Thanks Vic - not sure it that's directed specifically at me, but the working assumption is it's just a duff RAM slot on the motherboard; no plans to change the graphics card.
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Son has persuaded me to put graphics card back in. Has been ok so far running with 2GB in one slot...
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Focus - I have an NVidia card spare due to recent upgrade, if you decide that you want to try it. However I'm leaving shortly for 2 weeks motor racing in Florida (well, three days motor racing at www.sebringraceway.com/ and the rest is R&R)I've just upgraded. You can borrow it when I get back if you want, drop me a mail if you do.
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>> working assumption
>> is it's just a duff RAM slot on the motherboard; no plans to change the
>> graphics card.
Memtest 86+ www.memtest.org/ or Windows Vista/Windows 7 own memory diagnostic programme (type memory in search box by Start Orb) will show up any memory issues.
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Tried it several times in the past when PC occasionally crashing - never showed any problem :(
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Memtest is pretty much useless. most memory testing suites are
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In principle, or because of what they do (or don't do)?
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I mean, IIRC memtest runs through all locations and keeps going as long as you want it to, so I can't think of anything else it could do; just curious.
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because of what they don't do, the memory rippling procedures they use, in no way replicate the use of memory.
For example, they don't replicate a memory register being held in a state for two hours
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>> Memtest is pretty much useless. most memory testing suites are
Well Memtest86 has found every faulty memory module I've ever had the misfortune to encounter over the years including saving a perfectly good PC that the owner was junking. New memory means 3 years later it's still giving good service .... to me!
Last edited by: Victorbox on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 16:52
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I can count in the hundreds (over the years) of memory failures it hasn't found.
Computer salesman's best friend the memory test, must have been responsible for selling shed loads of new pcs to replace "faulty" ones.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 17:45
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How or what would you choose / recommend to test for memory problems? If thats not a trade secret ;-)
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thats the point, for some "memory" problems you cant test it. Only good diagnosis of the crash dump, and some logical swapping will find it.
You don't really need to "test" for the existence of a memory problem, the OS will do that for you soon enough.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 19:29
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>> Computer salesman's best friend the memory test, must have been responsible for selling >> shed loads of new pcs to replace "faulty" ones.
Even though logic would suggest that detecting a faulty memory stick using these testing programme would mean just the memory in the existing PC was replaced and therefore no new PC was needed? It would be the inability to pinpoint the faulty component that would lead to you to throwing in the towel and buying a new computer.
Last edited by: Victorbox on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 20:20
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Exactly, the memory test does NOT find the failing memory, and new machines get bought in desperation.
Believe me, been there, running a service department where the standing orders are no memory test failure means no memory changed. I know there is failing memory because it keeps coming back.
Been on the other side as well, as a customer looking after thousands of machines, knowing memory is failing and having to prove it to the repairer who uses a memory test that finds no problems,
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While I have had nowhere near the number of PC repairs to deal with as you Z, I've had a couple of successes with memory testing - which wasn't shown up by the old OS, or BIOS, on the machines in question (NT4.0)
Also, a "MAC" enthusiast I work with has found a upgrade memory chip which turned out to be the cause of odd crashes, and again, no OS indication of a problem.
Never say never/NOT.
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>> no OS indication of a
>> problem.
Ah but there was
Odd crashes.
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Z, are you the Queen of Hearts?
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Nah, I'm a Diamond geezer
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>> Nah, I'm a Diamond geezer
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I thought i had seen you somewhere before!
www.diamondgeezers.org.uk/
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>> Nah, I'm a Diamond geezer
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Will send the men with the clubs and spades around then....
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>> Oh have a heart.
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OK then.
I might regret it though ;-)
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>> Nah, I'm a Diamond geezer
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No... I have you down as the Joker.
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PC crashing - rtj70
