Today, two mile long national speed limit dual carriageway, car doing 50 in lane 2 and a totally clear lane 1, refused to pull in. There was nothing up ahead.
I stayed about 50 yards behind for long enough and just gave up and passed on the inside.
I know its wrong to undertake but why do they stick in lane 2 or even lane 3 when the inside lanes are clear? It seems to be becoming more common!
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Because they can with little chance of a penalty due to lack of policing. The sooner CCTV is used to issue FPNs the better. Unfortunately it would also catch undertakers.
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Undertaking is not in in itself illegal unless it is done in a way that poses a risk.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sun 18 Sep 16 at 17:24
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Not something I would do unless the traffic was crawling along at a snails pace.
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Around here they seem to do it if they want to be in the RH for turning right half a mile ahead.
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I have three basic rules for undertaking...
1/ The traffic is moving in queues
2/ Weekdays fine, weekends often not, Sunday drivers could do anything if passed on the inside
3/ Make sure there is an escape route if the car you are undertaking decided to enforce their view of the law
1 and 2 are breakable, but never 3.
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Totally agree with above SP.
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I use the M1 pretty regularly - about twice a week - between Jct 8 and 11. As many of you know, much of this is four lanes for each carriageway.
I would be a rich man if I had even 50p for each car I pass that sticks in Lane 2 or even Lane 3 at 50 - 60 mph when the rest of the road is reasonably clear - even an ambulance the other day. (I would class that driver as a professional who should know better.)
I'm usually in Lane 1 at around 60 mph anyway - well before I catch up - and I just stay there.
Is that really undertaking? I thought undertaking was switching to an inside lane for the express purpose of getting past another vehicle.
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Many of the problems caused by the "concertina effect" in heavy traffic are initiated by drivers being unwilling to pass a slower-moving vehicle on the inside despite the fact that the traffic on the inside lane is moving faster. This in turn is often caused by poor lane discipline; there is still a mindset amongst some car drivers that the inside lane is only for commercial vehicles.
As said above, it's often worse at weekends when the roads are populated by people who don't drive regularly.
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I drove back from Gatwick a couple of weeks ago after dropping some friends off. Probably left LGW at about 19:30 so not to much traffic about, but busy enough.
Once I joined the M4 I was aware of a couple of cars that appeared to just remain in lane 2 regardless of any traffic in lane 1. They also insisted on sticking at 65 regardless. Infuriating and I did find myself undertaking them in the end.
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>> Once I joined the M4 I was aware of a couple of cars that appeared
>> to just remain in lane 2 regardless of any traffic in lane 1. They also
>> insisted on sticking at 65 regardless. Infuriating and I did find myself undertaking them in
>> the end.
>>
You can take it from me that they're even more infuriating when they're travelling at 50-55, then speed up to 60 when I'm halfway past them in the lorry, which of course is limited to 56. I do find that sort of behaviour to be more prevalent the closer you get to the M25.
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>> Around here they seem to do it if they want to be in the RH for turning right half a mile plus ahead, to Claygate.
>>
It is a regular event when exiting the Scilly Isles roundabout at Esher towards Hinchley Wood / A3 to London.
Ancient drivers on the two lane part wanting to turn right when the third /forth lane appears
( hidden over the railway bridge) hog the right lane
Indicators ? You are joking!!!
Non locals /regular commuters hesitate to undertake!!!
tinyurl.com/hjaq3fh
The roundabout is at the top and the traffic lights are at the Manor Roadss junction
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I used to undertake without a seconds hesitation. Drop into third and blast past within seconds.
Now in a lower powered car I exercise more caution but still do... IMHO safer than tailgating and flashing headlights.
Normally I give the muppets 10 seconds to realise there is traffic behind wanting to get past. Then I gun it on the inside.
Little rebel me....
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It's largely true what everyone has said, but there are occasionally extenuating circumstances.
Lane carriageway signs are sometimes misleading, apparently saying that lane 1 is designated for a turn-off ahead, lanes 2 and 3 for staying on the motorway, because that's where the notice boards are hung. In an unfamiliar situation I have occasionally been mislead into moving over into lane 2 because I want to stay on the motorway, and then find when I get to the turn that all three lanes go straight on anyway.
It's even more infuriating to obediently move back into lane 1, and shortly afterwards have to move back to lane 2 again to let slower joining traffic enter.
As ever, familiarity with the road leads to smarter positioning.
A question - does the same rule apply to crawler lanes? Should a non-crawling car use an empty crawler lane? Does a crawler lane have priority when moving back into the main lane when it ends?
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When I used to drive motorways regularly I often came across "middle lane hogs", my procedure was to move to lane two then lane three pass then move right back into lane 1. Thinking about this later I realised that I was putting myself more at risk by following the "correct" procedure than I would have if I simply stayed in lane 1 and "floored it" for the couple of seconds that it took to get past.
Right or wrong? - I still haven't made my mind up!
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What risk is there in option 1 ?
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>>What risk is there in option 1 ?
Everyone else doing the same ;-) - got to move through two lanes of faster moving traffic rather than just "put a spurt on" for a couple of seconds, and keep out of it all!
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Overtaking should not pose a risk
If it does don't do it.
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>>Overtaking should not pose a risk
If it does don't do it.
I didn't ;-) I followed the "correct" procedure, but I still wonder if it was always the best option!
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>> I didn't ;-) I followed the "correct" procedure, but I still wonder if it was
>> always the best option!
>>
If you were hoping to show the offending driver where he/she should be by your example, don't waste your time. My own experience is that they're so far into their own personal vacuum that they wouldn't notice if you passed them naked on a motorbike.
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What risk is there in option 1 ?
Not a lot, but it's not even counted as undertaking if the queue in the inside lane is moving faster than lane two or three.
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A friend got a summer job at an undertakers when he was a student ( nigh on 40 years ago mind ) He had to wash the, erm, "stock". Well paid though, probably because they found it difficult to find people prepared to do it.
No one ever asked to share his sandwiches if he met any of us for lunch.
Drift over, as you were...😬
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Mon 19 Sep 16 at 14:40
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>>A friend got a summer job at an undertakers when he was a student ( nigh on 40 years ago mind ) He had to wash the, erm, "stock". Well paid though, probably because they found it difficult to find people prepared to do it.
What do they do with all your blood after they've sucked it out and pumped y'all full of formaldehyde?
Just asking like.
(*_*)
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>> it's not even counted as undertaking if the queue in the
>> inside lane is moving faster than lane two or three.
>>
How many cars make a queue?
A not uncommon scenario is to be driving at a steady 60 in lane 1 and come up behind someone hogging lane 2 doing a steady 50. All the traffic in lane 3 is doing 80.
Do you
a) simply drive straight past in lane 1
b) accelerate up to 80+, barge over into lane 3, then move back to lane 1 and resume previous speed
c) wait indefinitely at 50 in lane 1
d) move over into lane 2 and try and intimidate the slower driver by flashing lights?
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Ach, it's easy, lane one is for trucks and caravanists, lane 2 is for white vans and small cars and lane 3 is for proper cars driven by important people.
;-)
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>>
Do you
a) simply drive straight past in lane 1
b) accelerate up to 80+, barge over into lane 3, then move back to lane 1 and resume previous speed
c) wait indefinitely at 50 in lane 1
d) move over into lane 2 and try and intimidate the slower driver by flashing lights?
And there we have the conundrum! ;-) that started the thread.
After consideration I would opt for A, on the grounds that Mr hog hadn't moved over for the last 50 miles, so what were the odds that he was going to at the very second I passed. worth the bet! ;-) m'Lud!
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Since we agree the motorways aren't policed hardly at all I just glide carefully and slowly past the offender on the nearside and give them a 'withering female' look while doing so.
Done with care, it's the safest option.
Pat
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>> I just glide carefully and slowly past the offender on the nearside and give them a 'withering female' look while doing so.
That explains all the drivers at the service areas wearing brown trousers!
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...at least they're off the road Duncan:)
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What about You move into lane 2, follows at a safe distance and wait till the driver pulls over or it safe to overtake using lane 3
Advantages of this method is that I remain unstressed, get home in one piece and time lost is a few minutes at worst.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 19 Sep 16 at 15:23
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In a lorry I can't go into Lane 3 anyway and I would far rather have the dodgy one ( the Lane 2 hogger) on my right where I have an escape route to my left (the hard shoulder) than anywhere else.
It's called self preservation!
Pat
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>> In a lorry I can't go into Lane 3 anyway and I would far rather
>> have the dodgy one ( the Lane 2 hogger) on my right where I have
>> an escape route to my left (the hard shoulder) than anywhere else.
>>
Agreed. What this shows up mostly, though, is the need for drivers to be trained to use motorways.
Many years ago, when I passed my car test in the Army, our instructor took me and my fellow pupil out for a few hours on the M4 after we'd both passed our tests. Valuable experience which has stood me in good stead; I personally think a half-day doing thus should be mandatory for all drivers before they're allowed on motorways.
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It's amazing what even a short lesson with a good instructor can do for a driver who already has a bit of experience.
I had a couple of hours with a police instructor before I was allowed to drive the minibus at the first school I taught at and I still remember many of the things that came up. I try to put that knowledge to good use all these years later.
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>> Advantages of this method is that I remain unstressed, get home in one piece and
>> time lost is a few minutes at worst.
>>
>
No, it's not unstressed. I don't want to drive in lane 3 with insane tailgaters driving at over 80 yards behind me.
Waiting patiently behind the hogger is an option, but of indefinite duration, and you still get harassed by less patient people behind, driving too close and flashing lights. They may blame the one at the head, but they take it out on the one immediately in front.
Anyway, it's liable to create a moving bottleneck which becomes even more of a problem for other people coming up.
On the whole I go for a), after hanging back for a short while to see if the hogger moves over. But usually they don't, or they move over but then speed up.
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Do you mean you never use lane 3 to overtake even when it's clear? Don't understand why you wouldn't. That's what it is there for.
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>> Do you mean you never use lane 3 to overtake even when it's clear? Don't
>> understand why you wouldn't. That's what it is there for.
>>
Very occasionally, if clear as you say. But I don't want to drive at that sort of speed, and I don't like tangling with people who almost invariably drive much too close and often aggressively.
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Once again, I'm going to use local rules/laws etc.
IF there is somebody in front of you, and they can safely move over on a multilane road, without losing momentum or putting themselves into a dangerous situation, they have to if you flash at them.
They may be doing 120km/h (the speed limit), but I'm doing 140... they don't know why I'm doing that speed. It isn't their concern.
On the long road, the chaps are obliged to drive onto the hard shoulder - but only if they can see there's no obstruction ahead.
If it is SAFE for them to move to the left, they must.
A few years back, a chap decided to be clever, and held up an unmarked traffic vehicle, by bimbling along at 100 in the fast lane. After a few flashes, they put on lights etc, and he got a tug, and was done for obstruction.
Rightly so.
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Why are there so many middle lane hoggers are they scared to drive in the left lane?
I can understand staying in the middle lane if traffic is heavy in the left lane but please don't drive at 50 mph if there is no need. in the middle lane.
I overtake on the outside lane or middle lane..I get the impression that some drivers think that all three lanes on the motorway have different speed limits.80 to 90 on the outside lane
Middle lane between 50 and 70 mph.
Inside lane for lorries and caravans.
My daughter gave me a lift the other day in her car on the motorway.She was overtaking in the left lane.I explained to her that this was illegal unless driving in very slow heavy traffic where all three lanes are full.Unless I am wrong correct me.
Is it about time that lessons on the motorway are part of the driving test.
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>> Why are there so many middle lane hoggers are they scared to drive in the
>> left lane?
Because many drivers are convinced there's three speed limits for motorways, 50, 60 and 70MPH depending on which lane you choose.
I did a straw poll once and was surprised that the majority of drivers in my office thought the national speed limit for dual carriageways was 50MPH!
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>> Because many drivers are convinced there's three speed limits for motorways, 50, 60 and 70MPH depending on which lane you choose.
I thought it was because if driving in the middle lane when it's quiet you've got room to play with either side of you should something go wrong.
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I read some research (don't ask it was years ago) that older drivers tend to drive nearer the centre of a road as it gives them a sense of security in having avoidance room on both sides. Whether it is true or not I don't know but I have often seen people driving in the centre of narrow two lane rural roads and moving over for oncoming traffic. Maybe middle lane hoggers are unconsciously doing the same thing, if it is a valid theory.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 21 Sep 16 at 09:23
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Surely the answer as to why people drive in the centre lane is tha they do not feels confidant in overtaking. If you drive at 60mph in the left hand lane you will eventually meet slower traffic and need to overtake. By driving at 60 mph in the centre lane overtaking and lane changing can mostly be avoided.
A lot of motorway drivers are very uncomfortable with the concept of overtaking
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I think it is true to say that some people are afraid of motorway driving. Odd really given that it's about the most effortless form of driving and statistically by far the safest. ( yes I've been on one of those courses ! ) ;-)
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They are dead obvious to spot during school holiday periods - the people who only drive on m-ways once a year, and probably only on roads they don't know twice a year - no road / planning skills / awareness at all!
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A lot of motorway drivers are very uncomfortable with the concept of overtaking
I think there's a lot in that. Many people don't cover very many miles per year, i think that the average is about 7000 miles for a UK driver. Stands to reason many will be a bit nervous about travelling on an unfamiliar type of road.
I can think of a few people that i know that don't drive on motorways, they either find a different route or get someone else to drive.
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There is something in that ON but not just older drivers. Advanced motoring techniques include improving your safety by maximising your bubble, as well as a lot of other things which many other motorists find unpalatable (e.g. only using indicators where here is someone to benefit from it).
That does not extend to middle lane hogging though. It can include using lane 3 to overtake an HGV in lane 1, assuming lane 3 is clear, to give the HGV some wobble room (or any other towing vehicle for that matter).
Depending on the (rural) road, there is also a case sometimes for driving along the centre to improve your visibility, and there are methods of approach to bends which do the same.
There is nothing whatsoever in advanced training which tells you to mimse, or lane hog, or put other drivers at risk. You would fail the test of you did not "make good progress"
I think the middle lane hoggers are just oblivious to other motorists, or simply don't care about them. They are driving on auto-pilot with little awareness of what they are doing and the impact it has on other road users. I have overtaken on the inside, where I considered it safe, and not in an aggressive fashion. Especially on 4 lane motorways where lane 1 is often barely used.
Lastly I once was being driven by a bloke who was hogging lane 2 and I mentioned it. He got quite stroppy, saying he'd paid his road tax and he'd drive where he wanted. Up till then I'd thought he was an ordinary regular kind of bloke...
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During my advanced driver training I was taught to use the full width of the lane of non motorway roads to maximise lines of sight on approaching a bend. Road positioning is not taught at basic driver level or soon forgotten if it is. Much the same as using the right lane of an on slip road to see and be seen by traffic on the road you are joining. I must admit people thinking they have right of way when joining from a slip road annoy me, I had to brake for one yesterday, I was in lane one of two, a heavy load HGV with a seven axle trailer was in lane two (40mph roadworks) and this guy either didn't see me (in an orange car) or didn't care.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 21 Sep 16 at 11:10
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"I must admit people thinking they have right of way when joining from a slip road annoy me, I had to brake for one yesterday..."
That raises another issue: the inability of some drivers to merge. It means accurately assessing the speed of the traffic that has right of way relative to their own speed. Some drivers seems absolutely hopeless with this. I've been behind cars on a slip road that have suddenly braked, whereas all they needed to do was speed up a little.
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I don't really understand why people get so excited about middle lane users. Its one thing if they're causing a hold up, but most of the time its easy enough to change lanes around them.
Hardly a big thing.
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"I don't really understand why people get so excited about middle lane users."
It's because of the message (deliberate or otherwise) that they are sending out to everyone else.
And it's not "middle lane users" we're getting excited about. It's middle-lane hoggers.
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"hoggers" as in "not sharing"?
Again, I get the point, I just don't see why its such a big issue.
Ditto the reaction people have to someone in front of them at anything less than the speed limit.; if the speed limit is, say, 50mph and someone is driving at 45mph then the frequent magnitude of the reaction is quite surprising. Why does it matter *so much*?
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It is a Big Thing when the motorway is reasonably busy. If you were able to stand on a bridge and gather data for a scatter diagram (or whatever they are called) I bet lane 1 would be 40% utilised, lane 2 60% and lane 3 80%, or that sort of proportion. By hogging the middle lane people are causing (dare I say forcing? :-) ) people into lane 3 to overtake, and causing overcrowding and bunching in lane 3, which is not really desirable in the fastest lane.
If people in any lane returned to the slower lane when there is room then probably 40% extra capacity could be squeezed out of existing roads.
I mentioned 4 lane motorways earlier - in a similar vein, it seems that many people are not happy using the hard shoulder when and where this is permissible. The authorities do stuff to ease the flow but all to no avail.
(All percentage are made up to suit my argument! :-) )
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8062QEFk5g
Louis CK on driving, a little sweary
Jump to 2:09 if you don't want to watch the whole thing, quite apt
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 21 Sep 16 at 13:15
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>> "I must admit people thinking they have right of way when joining from a slip
>> road annoy me, I had to brake for one yesterday..."
>>
>> That raises another issue: the inability of some drivers to merge.
>>
Hell yeah; my 'favourites' are the ones who pull off the hard shoulder of a motorway into lane 1 at 10mph, as if they're maneuvering in Tesco's car park.
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Wed 21 Sep 16 at 12:56
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"I must admit people thinking they have right of way when joining from a slip road annoy me, I had to brake for one yesterday..."
One - try lots of times. The southbound joining traffic southbound on the M1 at Watford (J5) in the mornings especially, but are liable to do it any-time basically mug the existing traffic. Once they are on the motorway, they rediscover the go pedal and often proceed to undertake the traffic they've just forced into lane two.
And people wonder why junctions are often slow points, even if capacity is not being stretched.
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>> "I must admit people thinking they have right of way when joining from a slip
>> road annoy me, I had to brake for one yesterday..."
>>
>> One - try lots of times.
I normally spot the idiots so have made allowances for them before they become a problem. The one I mentioned was totally suicidal and due to the slow moving traffic I did not have an escape route. Bad planning on my part!
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>> Because many drivers are convinced there's three speed limits for motorways, 50, 60 and 70MPH depending on which lane you choose.
I like this idea. In my opinion, there should be lane specific speed limits (where it is safe to do so).
Based on my commute on M1 I feel that middle lane hogging originates while trying to continuously overtaking trucks on lane 1.
There is kind of unwritten rule: lane 1 = trucks, lane 2 = sane people, lane 3 = maniacs
Rather than catching speeding motorists, why not use cameras to punish middle lane hoggers and tail getters? Unlike speeding, it would possibly get more public support.
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>>I like this idea. In my opinion, there should be lane specific speed limits
In Brazil in Sao Paulo State they have this. Its a right royal pain in the a***.
Imagine Car A is in Lane 3 at 80mph. Car B comes up behind at 90mph. Everybody is ok because the speed limit for Lane 3 is 90mph.
Unfortunately the speed limit in lane 2 is 70mph. So the only way that Car A can move over to allow Car B to pass is by slowing down 10mph. Equally, Car B cannot undertake because the speed limit in Lane 2 is less than the speed that Car A is actually doing.
Now, if you think it is difficult to get people to move over on a UK Motorway, try it on that one!
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 22 Sep 16 at 12:20
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A sometimes legitimate excuse for MLOC members to eschew lane 1 has been the deep ruts in it.
One thing I noticed on Monday, travelling the length of the M1 from the northern end to J15 with a caravan in tow and therefore spending much time in lane 1, was that there generally weren't any. Is this the only part of our road system that has not been allowed to fall into disrepair?
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Do I Really Have To Undertake! - Old Navy
