I was only half listening, but did I really hear labour intend reducing season ticket costs by an average of £1K a year and give free rail transport to under 17s at a cost of £1.5 billion a year?
To be funded by road tax?
He seemed very vague about current, proposed road improvements.
Think I'll go and join the queue at the polling station now.
|
I think you mean John McDonnell.
|
>> >> I think you mean John McDonnell.
>>
>> No, Andy McDonald, Shadow Transport Secretary:
>>
Oops - apologies.
|
>> Oops - apologies.
I hear same piece as Bt.
In two minds as to whether it's good or not.
Risk it will be seen as mostly be benefiting the 'well off' South East.
|
It seems a strange policy.
According to the 1828uk website, 930 million rail journeys start or end in London, compared to only 30 million for the whole of Wales and 16 million in the north-east.
This seems to me that city workers will gain the most benefit, paid for by people who live in areas where they cannot take the train to work.
But maybe I'm missing something.
|
>> This seems to me that city workers will gain the most benefit, paid for by
>> people who live in areas where they cannot take the train to work.
Or looked at other way:
Most people who commute to London do so in ordinary jobs for ordinary rates of pay and have seen rail fares rise faster than pay over most of last decade.
Not got time to look up figures but Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds have all seen rail commuting grow rapidly over last 30 years or so. Probably same in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Bristol.
|
|
How metrocentric Bromp. Get the rest of the many to subsidise the few.
|
>> How metrocentric Bromp. Get the rest of the many to subsidise the few.
There are supposedly about 3m. rail commuters. Probably no easily accessible data on where they live - I'd guess it's mostly around London anyway.
38% of London workers commuted by rail in 2016-17. The figure for "England" was 10%, presumably including London so an assumption plus a a rough calculation suggests that for England excluding London the figure will be no more than 2%. Only the Manchester figure is mentioned specifically at 3%.
www.cbre.co.uk/research-and-reports/our-cities/city-commuting-by-rail
I can't decide how much sense this proposal makes. An annual season ticket from here to London (about a 40 mile drive although that is a bit academic) is £4336 or £5356 with Travelcard. That sounds crippling for anybody on an ordinary wage but is probably still less than using a car, all expenses considered. Never mind parking.
The nub to me is that trains and commuting are really about London. A London solution is needed, it's nothing to do with the vast majority elsewhere.
It wouldn't be the first time politicians have mistaken London for the UK.
|
>> Most people who commute to London do so in ordinary jobs for ordinary rates of
>> pay and have seen rail fares rise faster than pay over most of last decade....
Ordinary rates of pay are higher in London.
Here are the median rates of pay (I googled median as average/mean will be distorted by the small number of very high earners). www.cityam.com/where-can-you-earn-most-uk-pay-london-much-higher-any-other-part-uk/
But I agree it's complicated - I don't know whether someone working in the south east is better or worse off after housing and travel.
|
Good grief have you been out of it 6 years Bromp? I can hardly believe I haven't had a proper job now for over 7 years either.
I could never face commuting, either train or congested driving of an hour or hour. Passed up several jobs solely because I just couldn't stand the thought. Cost me money but I don't regret it.
Now I have up to maybe 15 days a year in the west end or city end with my part-time duties. I can just about stand that although I'm often on my way home before 5pm which helps. I use Wendover-Marylebone on the Chiltern line usually. The service on the Euston line is more frequently disrupted.
|
>> It seems a strange policy.
>>
>> According to the 1828uk website, 930 million rail journeys start or end in London, compared
>> to only 30 million for the whole of Wales and 16 million in the north-east.
>
I wonder what that number is in relation to the whole country? It's a lot of journeys going to and from London.
|
>> I wonder what that number is in relation to the whole country? It's a lot
>> of journeys going to and from London.
Wikipedia lists entry exit numbers as:
Manchester Group (Pic, Vic, Deansgate and Oxford Rd) 45million
Birmingham (NS, Moor St and Snow Hill) 54million (International will add a few million more?)
Leeds 31 million
Liverpool (Lime St and Central) 32 million.
London will presumably include many millions of short tube journeys in Zones 1/2 but is still massively ahead of rest of country.
Conurbation hubs like Coventry, Liverpool S Parkway, Bradford Stations etc should arguably be added to give totals for Metropolitan Districts if comparing with london.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 4 Dec 19 at 10:27
|
|
If they plan on utilising car tax to subsidise train fares it makes me wonder what state the roads are to become, especially in Northern rural areas where our roads are already hardly fit for purpose, or how much they plan on increasing vehicle duty to fund the south! - We in the far-ish north west particularly won't get any benefit, along with a lot of other areas.
|
>> If they plan on utilising car tax to subsidise train fares
Does anyone know where we are with hypothecation of car tax proceeds to the roads budget?
Although there has been a long standing supposition that there was a 'Roads Fund' the concept was actually abolished before WW2 and car tax just gone into same pot as everything else.
Post coalition there was talk of returning to at least partial hypothecation. I thought that had got lost in post 2017 election/Brexit confusion but McDonald's intervention makes me wonder if it has moved on.
EDIT: This document suggests return to hypothecation in 2020/21:
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01482/SN01482.pdf
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 4 Dec 19 at 12:05
|
>> Conurbation hubs like Coventry, Liverpool S Parkway, Bradford Stations etc should arguably be added to
>> give totals for Metropolitan Districts if comparing with london.
>>
I thought it'd be a lot but not quite that big a %. Even if you say half are tube journeys that's still a lot. However I think there's a bit of chicken and egg in all this, there's not the capacity infrastructure for many of those other cities to increase their rail total journeys so that's one of the reasons they are so far behind, amongst others of course. Build it and they will come?
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Dec 19 at 12:50
|
>> Build it and they will come?
I think that is happening already.
I grew up in Guiseley, a suburban village NW of Leeds. It had a station and an hourly train to Leeds run mostly by two car Diesel Multiple Units of 'Modernisation Plan' vintage (ie fifties/sixties). Might have been one or two extras in evening peak. No Sunday service except in Summer. It was better than the bus for shopping in Leeds and of coutrse if connecting to/from London but next to nobody commuted.
Forty years later the line is electrified and service is half hourly but with significant rush hour enhancement (10 minute intervals around 08:00).
Manchester has seen even greater enhancement with the trams and Birmingham has seen Moor St/Snow Hill both returned to significant use.
Ample evidence that if you build they will come.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 4 Dec 19 at 12:24
|
|
So what are the figures for the non-rail travelling public i.e. those that maybe take the train once in a very rare mile.
|
This fact sheet is interesting, worth a look and it does have some "per person" statistics...
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/761352/rail-factsheet-2018.pdf
Also I note that though Anytime and off-peak ticket prices have increased, fairly steadily over the years seemingly not connected to whichever party is currently screwing up the country, advance tickets have dropped by something around 40%. Certainly I've my personal experience confirms that.
I'm not sure of any logic that says the railways should be further subsidised to lower the cost of commuting for some at the expense of others. Seems to me that it should be exactly the other way around; intensive commuters helping fund the railways for the more rural non-commuting public.
After all, packages in London mostly consider the cost of rail travel if they are trying to recruit out of area.
More detailed stuff if you can be bothered....
dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/usage/passenger-rail-usage/
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/9078/rail-notes-definitions.pdf
www.gov.uk/government/collections/rail-statistics
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 3 Mar 20 at 12:39
|
|
Shows how much train travel is dominated by London and the SE i guess. And the obvious flip to that is how little its used elsewhere. I've used the train once this year, in the last five years I bet I've used no more than three times.
|
|
Just out of curiosity, how often do you use the train?
|
>> Just out of curiosity, how often do you use the train?
Assume this is a 'survey'!!
Probably half a dozen times a year, mostly to London or Birmingham as they're fast direct services and easier than driving.
Might use it into Liverpool to see The Lad if we're lodged out of town - eg Caravan Club site at Southport.
Very occasionally drive to Banbury or to Wellingborough to access services to South West or to Sheffield.
Happy to use a train, just sit and watch out the window or read. Well aware that for others it's a trial!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 5 Dec 19 at 12:00
|
> Assume this is a 'survey'!!
>>
Yes just wondered how often we all use the train.
Well
>> aware that for others it's a trial!!
>>
For regular long(ish) distance travel on your own i can see the general appeal. But for local journeys, for me, instead of the car it's pretty impractical. Nearest bus stop is a 10 minute walk and the closest the bus stop at the other end is to the train station is a 15-20 minute walk, then the train journey. Then the train station in the nearest town, where we do most shopping, is at the opposite end to all the shops, so add another 15 minute walk.
All that vs 15 minutes in the car.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 5 Dec 19 at 12:31
|
Train use.
Now? its probably 18 times a year, social & leisure trips to London, and some non scheduled services with very obscure traction to places not normally visited by the average train passenger.
In the past I have done 200 days+ a year, all the way back to 1973 when I was typical commuter fodder on BR run slam door trains*.
* A whole generation has lost vital commuting skiils, which carriage door to find a seat next to, how to open a train door/window at speed without mowing down people on the platform, how to depart train at 10mph or more, how to be first through the gate, how to negotiate the back tunnels, gates, door, that have no signs or directions, what platform trains depart from at what time with only a reference to your watch.
|
>> Just out of curiosity, how often do you use the train?
When I'm in the UK, probably two or three times a week, considerably more if I'm working.
|
>> >> Just out of curiosity, how often do you use the train?
>>
Work wise, it all depends, 1st half of the year, client in Swindon drove sometimes, other times drove 4-5 miles to Maidenhead station and took train.
Now working in Southend done it by train once via London driving, even round m25 northern section is much preferable.
any journeys into central London always drive to Hillingdon then tube rest of journey. have done about a dozen times this year, some work, sone SWMBO and I, some also with 5 year old grandson in tow, he loves it and also enjoyed his trip to Didcot on the 'pointy nose' train to see the steam trains.
I enjoy train travel and will use it whenever it makes sense, with a senior railcard it's not that expensive.
|
I always use the train to go to London (semi-retired: 6 to 8 times a year). Gillingham (Dorset) is 2 hours from Waterloo so quite convenient, and SWR runs quite a good service when the RMT aren't being pathetic about guards whom the company have promised to retain.
To just about anywhere else, driving is easier and quicker from rural north Dorset.
Last edited by: Avant on Thu 5 Dec 19 at 23:14
|
Andy McDonald on Today this morning - James T
