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IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ
Before discussions start in this thread, I would like to point out that any petty arguments, personal attacks, or any other infringement of house rules, etc. will be deleted where we feel fit from now on.
We will not give notice that we have deleted something. Nor will we enter into discussion why something was deleted. That will also be deleted.
It seems that discussion about Brexit brings out the worst in some people.
Be nice, Play nice, and control your temper. Your co-operation would be appreciated.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 5 Jan 21 at 10:31
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Do we think there is brinksmanship going on and a deal will be pulled out of the hat at the last minute? I do.
I don't think No Deal really suits either side that well, but we probably have more to lose from it.
I suppose I'm not clear why a deal can't still be negotiated after 1 Jan. I understand we won't be in then so it wouldn't be ideal but is there a real reason it couldn't happen?
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I suspect no deal followed by a further period of status quo.
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It is dangerous to credit politicians - UK or EU - with rational behaviour in the public interest they represent. They are far more concerned with electability and image.
If a deal comes it will be very last minute allowing both sets of negotiators to insist they were tough, but GOT IT DONE. Good for respective public images!
If a deal doesn't happen the ground has already been set for each to blame each other for intolerable intransigence.
The reality of course is that the Withdrawal Agreement was signed before they had agreed what would follow it. A piece of profound stupidity in my view - the outcome was all but inevitable.
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The buffoon told us, nay promised us, at the election, just over a year ago, that the deal was "oven ready", "a done deal"!
The bloke is a pathological liar who has ambitions of being Churchillian. The nearest he gets to being Churchillian is looking like the Dog on TV ads.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 11 Dec 20 at 09:23
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>> The buffoon told us, nay promised us, at the election, just over a year ago,
>> that the deal was "oven ready", "a done deal"!
TBF he didn't say that at all. He said he would get us out of Europe.
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>> TBF he didn't say that at all. He said he would get us out of Europe.
If he didn't say that then he gave that impression
www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/johnson-says-the-government-has-an-oven-ready-deal-which-they-will-put-in-the-microwave/31/10/
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 11 Dec 20 at 10:43
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That wasnt this deal, that was the delay the deal for a year deal.
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>> I suspect no deal followed by a further period of status quo.
>>
>>
this. Because "status quo" actually means "We don't know WTF to do"
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A deal on the U.K.’s terms was never going to happen. The EU always had the stronger hand and more determination to stick together than the U.K. Government believed.
Since the cost of a no deal is going to be massive, in a sane world we would now make some concessions to achieve the deal but political pride will not allow it and we will all bear the cost.
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I wonder if someone will agree to sign up to the bits we've already agreed and sort the last three bits out later?
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Too easy. Macqereau would want the vast amount already agreed revised for every later proposal.
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>> I wonder if someone will agree to sign up to the bits we've already agreed
>> and sort the last three bits out later?
I think what's included is 'bare bones'. The items remaining particularly the level playing field and dispute resolution are too fundamental to be left for later unless perhaps there are time limited interim arrangements.
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I think it's a bit more than that, but could be wrong.
Seems to me to a way to get on and get progress. Although as CGN says there's too much political pride at stake and no one wants to be seen as to concede.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 11 Dec 20 at 13:48
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In any set of negotiations if a deal is struck early either there was nothing to argue about in the first place or one side has been shafted. If there was an extension of another year it would still go to the wire.
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We are simply approaching the conclusion that was inevitable from the day Brexit started. Boris & Co effectively claimed we could retain all the benefits of the single market but dump anything they deemed unacceptable. That was never going to be allowed - and the EU told us that from Day 1.
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>>We are simply approaching the conclusion that was inevitable from the day Brexit started.
Yes. But the mistake is to believe that everybody thinks it is bad.
Many, many who voted for Brexit believe that they are getting exactly what they wanted. And largely they are. They wanted no more EU influence, they wanted the end of free movement, and they wanted they they believed would be control of their own destiny.
And they believe that they are getting it, so as far as they are concerned all the current doom and gloom about Brexit is irrelevant garbage from those that voted remain trying to make them feel bad.
And when they begin to suffer, as they surely will, they will believe that it is the fault of those who negotiated Brexit, and the scheming remainers, and will never accept that it is a fundamental and inevitable consequence of Brexit itself.
And nothing will convince them otherwise. The EU was their chosen scapegoat because it made their own difficulties justifiable, and that is how they will remain.
They truly believe that when the UK begins to recover and re-exert itself, as it inevitably will, they will bath in the glory of their self congratulation, without realising how much has been lost on the way or how much damage it is caused and ignore the fact that nothing was gained..
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>> >>We are simply approaching the conclusion that was inevitable from the day Brexit started.
>>
>> Yes. But the mistake is to believe that everybody thinks it is bad.
>>
>>Many, many who voted for Brexit believe that they are getting exactly what they wanted.
>> And largely they are. They wanted no more EU influence, they wanted the end of
>> free movement, and they wanted they they believed would be control of their own destiny.
>>
They are not the issue. There are also many who voted for the version of utopia promised by Johnson but would not have voted for the inevitable reality. Given the narrow balance of the referendum the outcome turns out to be far from the "will of the people" after all.
What we actually have is the will of a minority of the Tory Party who have lobbied to get out of Europe from the day we joined the Common Market. And crucified several Tory Prime Ministers along the way.
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>>There are also many who voted for the version of utopia promised by Johnson but would not have voted for the inevitable reality.
I do not believe that. The utopia of Farage held far more sway.
In any case, the referendum is 100% irrelevant. We have voted to leave and that is that. The decision is made, we now simply need to complete that exit. And another year t***ting about isn't going to help anything. Right now we'd be in better shape if we had simply walked out 3 / 4 years ago.
How to make it work is all that matters.
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>> >>There are also many who voted for the version of utopia promised by Johnson but
>> would not have voted for the inevitable reality.
>>
>> I do not believe that. The utopia of Farage held far more sway.
>>
Farage deserves the credit (or the blame, depending on your point of view) for orchestrating the trial. Johnson stepped in to rig the jury - and further his political career.
Ironically, Johnson will probably fulfill his other ambition as well - to emulate Churchill and go down in history. Unfortunately for the country in his case it will be for all the wrong reasons.
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As I recall, and I don't care enough to check, Johnson came out in favour of Brexit at the very last moment.
Still, if it helps you to resent him with dodgy and inaccurate analogies, then good luck to you, it doesn't matter much. The referendum is in long the past.
As will Johnson be in the not so long term.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 11 Dec 20 at 17:37
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>> As I recall, and I don't care enough to check, Johnson came out in favour
>> of Brexit at the very last moment.
At the time the referendum was announced he was recently returned to Parliament for the Uxbridge seat after standing down from Henley to be Mayor of London. Generally regarded as a 'One Nation' Tory who while sceptical of some aspects of the institution was in favour on the EU's objectives.
His subsequent advocacy for leave came in a published article circa March 2016.
When leave won he (and Gove who was on a similar journey) both looked like boys who'd played about in the lab and blown up the school.
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>> both looked like boys who'd played about in the lab and blown up the school.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Spot on.
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>> >> both looked like boys who'd played about in the lab and blown up the
>> school.
>>
>> Couldn't have put it better myself. Spot on.
I cannot claim it as original.
Another rather good one today on The Week in Westminster. It likened the UK to a man who'd been having long term mild flirtation with a female colleague. Seemed to be going nowhere then one day she said 'Alright then'.
He finds himself a month later living out of his car and involved in lengthy conversation via lawyers to see his children once a month.........
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>>too fundamental to be left for later
In any case, if there are 100 matters for agreement and you agree 99 of them, you haven't got much weight to put behind your final 1. And it might be that the outstanding issue is something your opponent thinks they can manage without and is willing to settle for the other 99.
If you refuse to finally agree anything until everything is agreed, then you have equal weight behind each demand, irrespective of differing priorities.
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Interesting to consider how Switzerland relates to the EU - taken from the EU website:
"Overall more than 100 bilateral agreements currently exist between the EU and Switzerland.
The on-going implementation of these agreements obliges Switzerland to take over relevant EU legislation in the covered sectors.
These bilateral agreements between the EU and Switzerland are currently managed through approximately 20 joint committees.
As a consequence of its partial integration in the EU's single market, Switzerland pays a financial contribution to economic and social cohesion in the new EU Member States".
Without a full agreement between EU and UK, this may be how things evolve - separate rules for different market sectors where free trade makes clear mutual sense.
It may also have influenced how the EU see the relationship with the UK which, like Switzerland, has very close trading relationships.
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There is one issue. With the Swiss arrangement, Norwegian arrangement and all the others.
They are overseen by the ECJ.
An organisation which was never part of Brexit until that useless waste of space Teresa May, desperate to say something, suddenly declared at the Conservative Conference that we would no longer be subject to the jurisdiction of the ECJ and everybody paused and then said "Yur, right".
How does she think international contracts are overseen?
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How does she think international contracts are overseen?
>>
>>
>>
How are trade disputes involving the EU normally overseen? I don't know.
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>> Interesting to consider how Switzerland relates to the EU - taken from the EU website:
Interesting to consider how Switzerland sails along, friends with everybody, enemies with nobody. Keeps its nose clean. Minds its own business. Has a very sensible system of government. No extended royal family with not enough to do. Doesn't get involved in wars, apart from holding everyone's money. Very comfortably off, thank you.
I wonder how they do it?
Of course, I am not envious.
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>> Has a very sensible system of government.
www.swissinfo.ch/eng/federalism-and-covid-19_how-the-virus-puts-the-swiss-political-system-to-test/45646244
The Swiss relationship with the EU is very strained indeed. To the point where sanctions have been discussed
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www.bbc.com/news/business-55293982
I wonder how many of the wounded, whining little t***s voted for Brexit. Should it not be them apologising?
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Quite a few I would imagine.
Anyway never mind the furniture. I hope the Sylt Blabar (blueberry jam) and meatballs are getting through :)
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 13 Dec 20 at 18:21
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You certainly have your priorities right.
My girls loved those meatballs.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 13 Dec 20 at 18:24
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Friends of mine north of the border are currently most vociferous about getting independence, and entry into the EU, ASAP.
Would an independent Scotland meet the criteria for entry ? Presumably they’d have to join the euro mechanism....exchange bureaus at Gretna anyone ?
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>> Would an independent Scotland meet the criteria for entry ? Presumably they’d have to join
>> the euro mechanism....exchange bureaus at Gretna anyone ?
On the one hand the Spaniards at least wouldn't want secessionist nations joining - temptation to the Basques etc. On the other plenty other nations joined/joining are newly independent.
As to the Euro it seems that, whatever the strictly interpreted terms of entry say, what's needed is a commitment to join but only when the time and conditions are right.....
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Like the Eu need another land border to argue over.
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I'm sure any objections that might have, may well disappear depending on the amount 'regional support' funds that are offered.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 14 Dec 20 at 10:37
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>>most vociferous about getting independence, and entry into the EU
Every cloud....
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Much as I want independence, I feel that Brexit has killed off all hopes of it.
Ironically support for it is polling at all time high levels just now.
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I think there can be no greater revenge than to let the Scotch have independence.
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Yeah for some reason the sassenachs seem hell bent on holding onto us.
Wonder why.
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I understand that no more than I understand why scotch people want independence.
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Many Scots folk want independence so that they can actually get the Parliament and Government that they vote for.
No matter how the votes are in Scotland, we are dictated to by what happens in England. We have a devolved Parliament that has some powers but not all. It looks like we will be governed by the English tories for a long time now until labour can get their act together. We have been pulled out of the EU against the wishes of the Scottish voters.
That’s before you get into any specific policy issues.
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Thanks, are any parallels drawn with the UK's exit from the EU and how it would be the same/different if Scotland were to leave the UK or not?
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>> Many Scots folk want independence so that they can actually get the Parliament and Government
>> that they vote for.
>> No matter how the votes are in Scotland, we are dictated to by what happens
>> in England. We have a devolved Parliament that has some powers but not all. It
>> looks like we will be governed by the English tories for a long time now
As the English are paying for your devolved parliament, what do you expect. You wont like the financial cost of full real independence.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 14 Dec 20 at 09:27
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Zero, as with all political agendas, there are several different financial models of costings based on which side you are coming from.
Many don’t support the argument that England subsidises Scotland. But many do.
As I said earlier though Brexit I feel has killed it. While we were all in EU the border wouldn’t have been an issue. Now we would have not only the physical border, we would also have the experience of trying to negotiate a separation and all that involved which will put many folk off.
And that’s before you look at where most of our trade happens.
It ain’t going to happen.
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>> Zero, as with all political agendas, there are several different financial models of costings based
>> on which side you are coming from.
I have no agenda, I am merely a tax payer. I bet Scotland wouldnt be prepared to take their share of the Corona Virus debt when they go.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 14 Dec 20 at 10:29
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"No matter how the votes are in Scotland, we are dictated to by what happens in England. "
and then "We have been pulled out of the EU against the wishes of the Scottish voters".
Same as Berkshire really, no matter how we vote we are dictated to by how all the other counties voted and we have been pulled out of the EU against the wishes of the Berkshire voters
Same as Wokingham actually, no matter how we vote we are dictated to by how all the other towns voted and we have been pulled out of the EU against the wishes of the Wokingham voters
Same as my house really, no matter how we vote we are dictated to by how all the other houses voted and we have been pulled out of the EU against the wishes of this houses voters
And so on. That's democracy at work Bobby.
(NB Facts have been altered to fit the argument but you get the idea)
Whichever way you look at it I bet a referendum would be fairly evenly balanced.
I'd miss going to the Edinburgh Fringe but that's about it. That's not enough to make me want to resist devolution.
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Smokie, you are referring to regions not countries.
Scotland is a country.
Most countries have their own independent parliaments.
And you would still be able to visit Edinburgh!
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Makes no difference for the purpose of making my point, which is that democracy means that not everyone can have their own way, or get what they want.
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>>Many Scots folk want independence so that they can actually get the Parliament and Government that they vote for.
No matter how the votes are in Scotland, we are dictated to by what happens in England.
No different to other parts of the UK including in England. In a closely contested election you might even find that Scotland has the deciding vote.
That said I'd be tempted to move to Scotland myself if I could avoid being governed by the crooks currently in charge and if my children and grandchildren weren't in the south of England.
Dundee perhaps.
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>> No matter how the votes are in Scotland, we are dictated to by what happens
>> in England................ We have been pulled out of the EU
>> against the wishes of the Scottish voters.
I think you may be confusing 'England' and 'The UK'.
It just happens that the UK seat of government is in London.
"pulled out of the EU against the wishes of the Scottish voters." Well, it was a UK vote, not a Scotland vote, or an England vote or anything else. A UK vote. Each member of the electorate had one vote - what could be fairer?
I didn't like the result, it wasn't what I voted for, or what I wanted. That's how democracy works!
Come on, seriously - explain to me and everyone else what would be a fairer system?
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>> Yeah for some reason the sassenachs seem hell bent on holding onto us.
>> Wonder why.
>>
How is the current wave of support playing out north of the border?
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>> Yeah for some reason the sassenachs seem hell bent on holding onto us.
>> Wonder why.
I don't know with whom you have been mixing? Not loud mouthed politicians, surely?
Down here in leafy Surrey, we are quite happy for the Jocks to go.
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Alas they wont go properly, you know Passports, Border control properly.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 14 Dec 20 at 10:37
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www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55297468
Looks like there's some movement, small and only in a couple of areas. But some discussions around softening of positions continue.
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The EU, Macqereau in particular, must enjoy the idea that the longer negotiations last up to Dec. 31st, the less time the UK will have to prepare for WTO rules.
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Macqereau, is that supposed to mean Macron?
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Yes. Seems appropriate as he is preoccupied with fish and the mackerel is a predatory fish.
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I think I've seen enough stupid political nicknames to last a lifetime.
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I once had an irrational emotional attachment to a UK which included Scotland. Increasingly I find that I don't really care what Scotland does.
Independence as evidenced by Brexit is years of political noise, negotiations and (as things stand today) damaging for both sides. EU is a relationship that has been in place for only 50 years.
Scotland - England dates back centuries. We share a common currency, common laws etc and are almost completely integrated. The England - Scotland relationship is a bit like the one fervent Eurocrats would aspire to for the EU in 20 years time.
In some respects, the SNP are a little like right wing Tory Brexiteers - they:
- they assert the value independence and sovereignty above all else
- resent control from a remote political centre where they are a minority voice
They are convinced that the benefits of independence are justified despite the economic and social pain that they might inflict on both sides. I doubt they would be pleased with the analogy!!
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>>I once had an irrational emotional attachment to a UK which included Scotland. Increasingly I find that I don't really care what Scotland does.
That pretty much sums up my position.
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Apart from party political divisions, are there other internal tensions of note in Scotland? I have several times heard Lowlanders express dislike of Highlanders, one claim being that the Highlands get a unfairly large proportion of the exchequer. Another (according to George Orwell, writing during WWII) is that the Lowlander version of the language is superior.
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they're still talking but the sticking point seems to be fish. I mean really? How on earth did fishing become such a major issue. Its a tiny industry, most Brits dont even eat the stuff caught in our waters and its nearly all sold in European markets anyway. Scallops or mackeral or pilchard anybody?
It's all lunacy
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Strange one this, I can see the lunacy and I can see the sticking point.
On one side most British fishing fleets sold their quotas to the French and sold their boats. The French take fish we dont eat and sell it in Europe. Inshore we harvest shell fish and sell it in Europe.
In short all our inshore fish goes to Europe. The deep sea fish we eat comes from Iceland (not the supermarket) and the french say they wont allow imports of our fish, the fish we wont be catching because we dont have the boats, but means we loose the shellfish market we do sell.
On the other pro brexit side, It is legally our waters, as an independent nation we would'nt be selling off quotas of our field for the French to come over and take our potatoes.
Either way, the fishing industry in the Uk that Farage wants to protect and everyone voted for does not currently exist, and wont exist because there wont be a market. Fishing communities ceased to be fishing communities half a lifetime ago. ,
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 18 Dec 20 at 18:47
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That is exactly the point. The British had fishing quotas and sold them. Now they want them back "because it's their right" but they don't want to give the money back.
The fishing industry has been an uneconomic, unsuccessful noisy pain in the a*** for years. We'd be better off without it. The fishermen can spend the future pondering their stupidity.
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Funnily enough I was reading about the fishing thing this afternoon, here's an irish take on things.
www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/brexit-threatens-to-damage-irish-fishing-grounds-committee-hears-1.4439510
If we assume almost no inshore fish is likely to be sold to the EU either through high tariffs, long winded rules etc, where would those countries that currently do buy it from instead or would they simply stop eating that type of food?
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Fishing is an economic irrelevancy. However the sovereignty principle is important as any deal is poetentially infinite in length.
Imagine what a ban on foreign boats means. The UK does not currently have the boats or fishermen to fish our waters, nor do they have the processing plant. The EU may anyway close their market to UK fish.
The fish could be left swimming and procreating happily - environmentally sound but unlikely.
More likely we will sell quotas until it is clear that a thriving British fishing industry is investing in infrastructure and capability to actually catch the things, and has a market for the catch.
Frankly the loss to the UK of giving the EU access to UK waters for up to 20 years would be a trivial price to pay for an agreement providing ultimate control is retained.
So I come come to the following alternative conclusions:
- it is a negotiating ploy and will be sacrificed as a final concession for a deal
- it is a product of profound stupidity on the part of the government and negotiators
Frankly, it is not clear which is right!!
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>> So I come come to the following alternative conclusions:
>>
>> - it is a negotiating ploy and will be sacrificed as a final concession for
>> a deal
>> - it is a product of profound stupidity on the part of the government and
>> negotiators
>>
>> Frankly, it is not clear which is right!!
>>
There is a third alternative you overlooked:
- it is the inevitable outcome from a Brexiteer-led government which has known from Day 1 that the only way to satisfy its craving for "freedom" is a no-deal Brexit.
We will shortly find out if 12+ months of negotiations have been an elaborate charade by the UK side aimed at blaming somebody else for the inevitable consequences.
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So you believe that this was all a conspiracy as Johnson targetted a no-deal exit to satisfy his craving for freedom?
And that the whole thing was a charade by the UK side?
What utter garbage.
You're either a conspiracy nutter or you've been banging the Christmas cheer a bit early.
Hanlon's Razor is an adequate explanation of all that has gone on from the beginning of the entire embarrassing and ludicrous muddle.
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>> There is a third alternative you overlooked:
There cannot be a 'third alternative'.
Alternative: either one or the other, from alternate.
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He must be more modern than thou...
www.lexico.com/definition/alternative
Usage
Some traditionalists maintain that you can only have a maximum of two alternatives, because the word alternative comes from Latin alter ‘other (of two)’) and that uses where there are more than two alternatives are wrong. Such uses are, however, normal in modern standard English. See also
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>> >> There is a third alternative you overlooked:
>>
>> There cannot be a 'third alternative'.
>>
>> Alternative: either one or the other, from alternate.
Adjective
alternative
Relating to a choice between two or more possibilities
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>> >> There is a third alternative you overlooked:
>>
>> There cannot be a 'third alternative'.
>>
>> Alternative: either one or the other, from alternate.
I'm at a crap barbecue and a bit bored, I'll give it a go as an alternative to drinking even more or going home.......
Surely it is possible for there to be more than two alternatives?
"Standard is blue, but the alternatives are yellow, red and pink".
So it's blue or yellow, blue or red, and blue or pink. So even though there are three alternatives there is only one choice. The blue or an alternative colour.
Alternate is a whole 'nother thing suggesting some form of taking turns.
p.s. I was going to write the wrong version of ´perhaps I should have had another drink´as a joke. But I could not bring myself to do it.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 19 Dec 20 at 23:02
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>> I'm at a crap barbecue and a bit bored, I'll give it a go as
>> an alternative to drinking even more or going home.......
I couldn't of put it better myself.
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Good to know that my post last night stimulated the regulars to conduct an erudite discussion of an important issue.
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>> So you believe that this was all a conspiracy as Johnson targetted a no-deal exit to satisfy his craving for freedom?
Johnson's craving is not for freedom. It is as always to find someone else to blame for his blunders.
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Johnson appears to have no redeeming features at all as a leader.
He has an impressive track record of cronyism, and employing like-minded others (Grayling and Jenrick spring to mind, Dido Harding's appointments, hilariously ineffectual PPE contracts, continued hiving off to ATOS/Capita/G4S/Serco/etc.).
I don't see why Brexit should prove any different?
Whatever manoeuvre provides best value for his chums is likely to be his prime directive.
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I notice that your style is to make bald statements and then simply ignore any questions about them.
I assume that somewhere else has tired of you?
EDIT: Thinking about it, aren't you the one that was whining about how unfair and mean moderators always pick on you? I guess somewhere else did get tired of you.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 20 Dec 20 at 12:56
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Assume we can’t, you know, delay this Brexit thing for another 6 months or so, so that we only have one catastrophe to deal with at a time???
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Negotiations will always fill the available space and still only reach agreement in the dying throes of the timetable. It is, after all, primarily a game of brinkmanship.
So delaying it would only bring the Daily Mail and it's minions baying from out of the woodwork. I think that would be more intolerable.
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I agree - if they can't work things out by now over 4 years after he referendum, adding 6 months will add heat and uncertainty, but no intelligence, to the debate.
So two options - "almost any deal is better than a no deal", or "no deal is better than a bad deal".
It's a lottery - my money is on "almost any deal" but politicians are a profession beset by self interest, electoral uncertainty, irrational dogma ...........
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Looks like, at last, there's going to be a deal signed.
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There was never going to be a no deal. Neither side wanted it and a compromise was always going to be found.
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Done deal, according to BBC TV News. It looks as if Boris has given a bit more to French fishermen.
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Give them the mucky shellfish.
I’ll stick with haddock, frites et purée de pois merci beaucoup
Last edited by: legacylad on Thu 24 Dec 20 at 15:32
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>>purée de pois merci beaucoup
Guacamole, as they call it down here.
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What a relief. I will break open the Veuve Cliquot I was saving for tomorrow's dinner, as the Christmas Eve Agreement must have priority.
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What a surprise! I was expecting it to go down to the wire, but I suppose they all wanted to get home for tomorrow.
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>> What a relief. I will break open the Veuve Cliquot I was saving for tomorrow's dinner,
Bollinger Rose here, but as it's not yet chilled, it will have to wait until tomorrow. Merlot for tonight - perhaps a tad more than usual.
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According to The telegraph - so it must be right.
On fishing
Britain offered the EU a 3 year transition period but demanded it return 80% of its quotas for catching fish in UK waters. The EU countered by demanding unfettered access to UK waters for 14 years in return for giving back 15% of its quotas. During months of talks Brussels came down to 10 years, then 8, leaving the sides haggling over the 5 year gap between them, as well as the division of the catch between UK and EU before UK takes back full control of its waters.
Sounds believable.
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Theresa May insisted "no deal was better than a bad deal". She had little credibility or support in the Tory party and lost her job.
Boris embraced the idea until it became evident he may follow his predessor. So without telling anybody the philosphy quietly changed to "any deal is better than no deal".
Both sides will claim to have been tough and squeezed the best deal they could. Whether it withstands proper scrutiny or is full of huge gaps and ambiguities etc will emerge.
But Boris being Boris is triumphant in the hope that confidence and bluster will win over cool analysis. He has been right so far!!
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God...Jaipur is a cracking pint. When on an afternoon taking light refreshment with friends we sometimes are fortunate enough to find it as a guest beer.
Closely followed by Oakham Green Devil or Citra.
We get a weekly delivery from Saltaire Brewery...I’m out of the loop at the moment but my neighbour managed to buy me a dozen bottles of Saltaire Cascade ( American pale beer @ 4.8%) from the local CooP. 4 for £7 (500ml). Should keep me going until I run out!
Cheers
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Cheers to you too LL ... TBH I've never tried Jaipur before but I've got 8 tins of the brew as a taster :)
I prefer beer to wine really as I can drink more of it .. although I can well enjoy a good red wine on occasions.
I used to drink a lot of whisky and indeed whiskey back in the day but I gave that up before my liver packed up.
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I've got a few 'Harpers brewery' , brewed by Marstons, sold by Aldi. I think they are about £1.25 a bottle. Probably have a few tonight.
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My father's best (WW2) army buddy was the Head Gardener at Thornbridge Hall after the war, and I've had a few tours of the gardens in the past.
The Brewery started there, but is now a short distance away on the edge of Bakewell, and there's a reasonable tap room.
As you were!
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>>The Brewery started there, but is now a short distance away on the edge of Bakewell, and there's a reasonable tap room.
Yup! .. thornbridgebrewery.co.uk/our-story/
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Fishing - Very Condensed - BBC
Fishing
The UK becomes an independent coastal state and can decide on access to its waters and fishing grounds
But EU boats will be able to fish in UK waters for some years to come at least
25% of the value of their current catch will now become available for UK fishing boats
But there will be a transition period of five-and-a-half years where that is phased in
After the transition period the UK and EU will regularly negotiate on access to each other's waters
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Noting changed then - stand down navy.
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Did you spend all night working on the implications of the fishery deal? That’s dedication .
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Thank you, Mr Norwich. It's nice to know that all my hard work is appreciated.
Quite a good piece from the Beeb on matters to do with the deal. Most/many of us haven't got in laws to drone on this Christmas, so that will be a little light reading for you.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
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Well, predictably, I have read it. The 34 page summary that is.
I think the agreement is such that it is important to understand my position: I voted Remain, I thought Leave was a bad decision made for the wrong reasons, but the decision having been made then I thought we should absolutely leave and simply try to obtain the best position we could for the future.
Accepting that the devil will be in the detail and the execution, then I think the agreement is substantially better than I thought that they would achieve.
It is a negotiated agreement which means that you don't get everything your own way. Something that, if one judges by political and public statements, neither Sturgeon nor Starmer understand. Or at least are not prepared to admit they do.
The loss of Freedom of Movement is a huge mistake, but that was pretty much inevitable and the negative impact has been minimised to the point that it is unlikely to substantially impact many people. (For me it's pretty much zero impact and probably never will be of any import)
The fishing t***s have got more than they could have reasonably hoped for though not everything they wanted and the airlines and telecommunications people must be over the moon.
There are potential implications for the financial service market, but that is stuff that will come out in the wash and will depend very much on the implementation.
It doesn't offer cast iron guarantees for anybody who chooses to sit on their butts and do nothing, which seems to be troubling Starmer, but offers potential for those prepared to put some effort in.
All in all, it seems to me to be fair though involve compromise, and ought to avoid any train wrecks.
It will, though, be very interesting to look back in 10 years and see what we made of it. I suspect that it will be membership in all but name, but that this experience has put paid to the EU's growing social ambitions.
Unless something comes out of the woodwork which I haven't spotted, that probably signals the end of any interest on my part in Brexit, the referendum, or anything else to do with the sorry period of history.
To those who were obsessed with leaving the EU, and avoiding the ECJ, then you've got far closer to that than I thought you would. So put your bitterness away and step up.
I would caution the whiners to understand that crying in your aprons and whining to your cronies may be personally comforting, but will probably do you a whole bunch of no good.
It is what it is and now we must make it work, make the best of it, and seize whatever opportunity it brings. Which for me, should I decide to return to gainful employment, might be considerable.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 25 Dec 20 at 15:54
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It doesn't offer cast iron guarantees for anybody who chooses to sit on their butts
>> and do nothing, which seems to be troubling Starmer, but offers potential for those prepared
>> to put some effort in.
>
which of his comments are you referring to?
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>>which of his comments are you referring to?
Actually to be fair to Starmer, now I read the full response, it is considerably more rational and reasonable than a small out of context quote from the BBC had led me to believe.
FYI.
Keir Starmer, Leader of the Labour Party, responding to the UK-EU trade deal, said:
"As leader of the Labour Party, I have urged the Government to get on with negotiating the Brexit deal that it promised.
I wanted the talks to succeed. I did so because a deal is in the national interest. Businesses need a deal. Working people need a deal. Families need a deal.
The fact that the Government was even considering no deal – during a global pandemic – was grossly irresponsible.
After months of negotiations, a deal has now been agreed.
The choice facing Parliament – the choice facing Labour – is now whether to accept that deal or reject it.
The deal is a thin agreement. It does not provide adequate protections for British manufacturing. Our financial services. Creative industries. Or workplace rights.
It is not the deal the government promised. Far from it.
And there are serious questions about the Government’s preparedness for the new arrangements. Leaving everything to the last minute has made it even more difficult for businesses to be ready.
A better deal could have been negotiated. But I accept that option has now gone. The chance for renegotiation is over.
There are just two paths now left for our country.
To move forward with a deal.
Or without one.
No deal is simply not an option.
The social, economic and political consequences would be devastating. Jobs would be put at risk.
Businesses would collapse. Investment would dry up. Our national security would be threatened.
The disruption we have seen at the Port of Dover in recent days would be the tip of the iceberg.
And the cumulative effect – on top of the worst recession of any major economy – would be unimaginable.
Labour is against no deal. Firmly and absolutely. And the British people would never forgive us if we enabled a no deal outcome.
There are some that argue Labour should be neutral on this issue. To abstain. I do not agree.
Leadership is about taking the tough decisions in the national interest. It is about being a serious, responsible opposition.
A government-in-waiting.
This is the deal Labour will inherit in 2024. It is something we will build on compared to the chaos of no deal. The public would expect a labour government to make it work.
And the EU would expect us to make it work.
And to use it to protect our shared interests. Including the peace process in Northern Ireland. At a moment of such national significance, it is not credible for Labour to be on the side lines.
That is why I can say today that when this deal comes before Parliament, Labour will accept it and vote for it.
But let me be absolutely clear – and say directly to the Government – up against no deal, we accept this deal, but the consequences of it are yours.
And yours alone. We will hold you to account for it Every second you are in power. For the promises you have made. And the promises you break. No longer can you blame somebody else.
Responsibility for this deal – lies squarely at the door of Number 10.
I want to address the British people directly.
I know how tired you are of Brexit. The endless negotiations. And political squabbles. You want to move on. You want politicians in Westminster talking about the things that matter to you and your family. Securing our economy. Protecting our NHS. And rebuilding our country.
Those are my priorities.
We are a great country. We have done extraordinary things. Our NHS is the envy of the world. British scientists were among the first to discover a coronavirus vaccine.
I want to be Prime Minister because I believe a better future is possible for our country.
That we can be even greater than we are today. That we can achieve so much more. That we can stand proud on the world stage. And that we can make Britain the best place to grow up in and the best place to grow old in.
That is the change I believe in.
That is the change I want.
And with Labour under new leadership that is the change we offer.
Thank you. "
ENDS
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>>
>>
>> The fact that the Government was even considering no deal – during a global pandemic
>> – was grossly irresponsible.
>>
>>
>> A better deal could have been negotiated. But I accept that option has now gone.
>> The chance for renegotiation is over.
>>
>>
>>
On those two points I have picked out -
1/ The government almost certainly had no intention of going out without a deal, but they had to keep that fact open to doubt. Had they said that any deal is better than no deal they would have been shafted by the EU who would have known they had no need to budge on anything.
2/ I'd love to know what "Better deal" Labour would have got for us as we had to go to the wire fighting tooth and nail for this one. Starmer doesn't appear to have told us what extra he would have won.
Of course to be fair to the man, unless he is incredibly naive he knows both of those facts full well but he is doing what any opposition would do and telling us how his party would have done it better
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>> 2/ I'd love to know what "Better deal" Labour would have got for us as
>> we had to go to the wire fighting tooth and nail for this one. Starmer
>> doesn't appear to have told us what extra he would have won.
>>
>> Of course to be fair to the man, unless he is incredibly naive he knows
>> both of those facts full well but he is doing what any opposition would do
>> and telling us how his party would have done it better
He wouldn't have been starting from where the Tories did with all the red lines; that's what he means by a thin deal.
I think Labour would have gone for something with far fewer red lines than May wanted rather than the extra ones Johnson imposed; much closer to Norway/Switzerland type arrangements.
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>> He wouldn't have been starting from where the Tories did with all the red lines;
>> that's what he means by a thin deal.
>>
>> I think Labour would have gone for something with far fewer red lines than May
>> wanted rather than the extra ones Johnson imposed; much closer to Norway/Switzerland type arrangements.
labour would have done nothing, dont forget Corbyn would have been doing t.
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>>He wouldn't have been starting from where the Tories did with all the red lines; that's what he
>>means by a thin deal.
>>
>>I think Labour would have gone for something with far fewer red lines than May wanted rather
>>than the extra ones Johnson imposed; much closer to Norway/Switzerland type arrangements.
Rubbish. Other than May's dumb a*** comment about the ECJ, which Labour had also and already made, why would they have been different? Do you think that those fixated on remain would have somehow become more tolerant because it was the Labour party negotiating?
What is it that you believe the Labour party would have achieved for this agreement that the Conservative Party did not. I mean specifically, not just some meaningless "fewer red lines".
Or do you simply mean that they would have had less demands and given away more? Because that would certainly have speeded up the deal.
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>> Rubbish. Other than May's dumb a*** comment about the ECJ, which Labour had also and
>> already made, why would they have been different? Do you think that those fixated on
>> remain would have somehow become more tolerant because it was the Labour party negotiating?
I'm assuming that a Labour government wouldn't be starting from Johnson's flawed withdrawal agreement or his policies.
I cannot find any record of Labour 'red lining' the ECJ and their 2019 manifesto explicitly committed to the customs union and close alignment with the Single Market. As I've already said they'd have had us much nearer to Norway than Canada.
They'd almost certainly have committed to Erasmus with all that gives to people wanting to study in the EU.
Starmer now has the Gordian Knot of his own party's attitude to Johnson's deal. Vote for it on basis of a vote against no deal? Or abstain so Johnson cannot subsequently deny 100% ownership when, as they will, the hidden, unwanted and unforeseen consequences bite his bum.
Starmer's party is split and he'll be lucky not to have revolt/resignations either way.
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>>Of course to be fair to the man, unless he is incredibly naive he knows both of those facts full well but he is doing what any opposition would do and telling us how his party would have done it better
I think that's right. Can't blame the bloke for that stance.
I cannot see how the Labour party, or anyone else for that matter, would have done substantially differently.
Starmer is slightly more likeable than Johnson, but his politics are just as s***ty.
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Interestingly, it all but keeps NI in the EU, even to the extent that you cant take your dog from one part of the UK to another part of the UK without special forms.
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I agree we just need to get it to work - worrying about what might have been is a fruitless waste of effort.
But in reading snippets of the EU and UK summaries it is clear they are skewed towards different audiences for obvious reasons.
The UK summary is all about what the UK has managed to successfully negotiate.
The EU summary is principally about what they have been able to deny the UK which would previously have been a benefit of membership.
Broadly, tomorrow we will all be worse off than we are today - travel, rights of residence, property ownership, increased import/export bureaucracy, limited recognition of professional qualifications, jobs ............. etc.
We won't know for 3 - 10 years (and probably not then) whether the immediate sacrifice we are obviously making has worked. The proof may be in the possible emergence of a new political group promoting Brentry to undo the damage caused by Brexit.
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As time goes by there are likely to be too many other events going on to be able to realistically judge which was would have suited us best. And that all depends in what you consider that to be anyway. And we are almost bound to be better off in some things and worse off in others.
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>>we are almost bound to be better off in some things and worse off in others.
I agree. However, I think we're going to see several examples of the Laws of Unintended Consequences.
And I think the gradual reduction of road transport/freight through English sea ports is going to be one. I suspect that the finest day for our "professional drivers" has passed. No doubt the demise will be slow, but I do think it has started. Never was a death so thoroughly earned.
Also, if I was Scotland, I wouldn't worry about Independence. I think I'd focus on becoming the most attractive import/export gateway. And they have the means to do it, AND the opportunity.
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>> And I think the gradual reduction of road transport/freight through English sea ports is going
>> to be one.
Why do you think that, a general reduction or moved elsewhere?
>> Also, if I was Scotland, I wouldn't worry about Independence. I think I'd focus on
>> becoming the most attractive import/export gateway. And they have the means to do it, AND
>> the opportunity.
>>
I assume its related to your first point. Although they are a bit far from major population centres and Europe, how would they increase their importance as a trade gateway?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 26 Dec 20 at 22:38
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Just lost a big post. Will type again later when I've got over it.
f***ing ancient software.
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f***ing ancient poster, more like...
;-)
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The combination of the two things is not good, that is certainly true.
p.s. You don't need to use smileys to diffuse a mickey taking comment. I can cope.
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I only used a smiley to salve my conscience, 'cos I really meant it.
....... ;-)
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It would of been funnier without the smiley.
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I could of left the smiley off, but it wouldn't of been so funny to me......
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>> Also, if I was Scotland, I wouldn't worry about Independence. I think I'd focus on
>> becoming the most attractive import/export gateway. And they have the means to do it, AND
>> the opportunity.
To where? From where? With what infrastructure?
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en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocentral
Might boost traffic via Eurocentral.
Always thought the name was whoppingly optimistic.
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Eurocentral is near enough at the end of my street !
During first lockdown it became my daily walking route and more recently, running route.
There has been a huge political toing and froing recently about planning permission for a huge new railhead to open it up for much more freight traffic - can't rememeber if permission was eventually granted or not.
Also discovered on these walks that Brewdog have a distribution unit in there that also has a pub attached!
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>> Always thought the name was whoppingly optimistic.
xacly, Sail 100s miles past the two largest container ports with the best rail infrastructure in the UK, to a place that hasn't got half the throuput, and then drive them 100 miles back south again.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Dec 20 at 15:42
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Scotland doesn't need to get all of it, nor even most. But there is an awful lot more they could get, as could Ireland.
I don't quite understand the 250 miles that you quote.
edit: Nor the 100 miles you changed it to.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 28 Dec 20 at 15:50
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>> Scotland doesn't need to get all of it, nor even most. But there is an
>> awful lot more they could get, as could Ireland.
>>
>> I don't quite understand the 250 miles that you quote.
>>
>> edit: Nor the 100 miles you changed it to.
The point is the scottish facilites are further away from the source and the destination than existing established infrastructure, so why the hell would you use them.
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Perhaps shipping them further would be cheaper than queuing, for example. It's somewhat more complex than the direct cost of driving a mile. Even having said that, Manchester / Liverpool are closer to a Scottish port than they are to Dover.
Perhaps Scotland subsidising it's operations, or at least introducing a favourable tax advantage might help.
Perhaps better facilities....
etc. etc.
The possibilities are many. My point is that the opportunity is there. If I was Scotland I would be looking very closely. Given their aspirations it would make sense to exploit new opportunities not simply try to over value existing trade..
For the entire island of Ireland the potential is perhaps even greater.
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>> Perhaps shipping them further would be cheaper than queuing, for example. It's somewhat more complex
>> than the direct cost of driving a mile. Even having said that, Manchester / Liverpool
>> are closer to a Scottish port than they are to Dover.
Its not, which is why the ports on the shortest crossing paths developed organically.
Tilbury, Harwich, Felixstowe, to Europe, Liverpool to the USA - As the markets change the ports expand or die.
Ireland desperately needs a route to Europe for political and continuity reasons that does not include the UK overland route. Till now never developed because the UK overland route was the cheapest and most convenient.
>> The possibilities are many. My point is that the opportunity is there. If I was
>> Scotland I would be looking very closely. Given their aspirations it would make sense to
>> exploit new opportunities not simply try to over value existing trade..
The UK should be the pre eminent centre for renewable energies, wind and wave power, and Scotland for sound reasons could and should be the centre for such. Why the UK with its almost universal island wide large range of tides has never embraced, developed and exported tidal power technology is beyond me.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Dec 20 at 17:02
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This isn't worth an extended argument about something that neither of us have been involved in to any meaningful extent - well I haven't, anyway.
If it should happen it probably will.
My personal feeling is that English road transport companies and their drivers are likely to increasingly find the next 15 years challenging. Karma is a bitch.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 28 Dec 20 at 17:08
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>>. Why the
>> UK with its almost universal island wide large range of tides has never embraced, developed
>> and exported tidal power technology is beyond me.
I believe it's never really took off due to either environmental, cost grounds or both.
Although I agree on the face of it, there's a large amount of potential in generating electricity especially as its very predictable.
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Felixstowe is rammed, and quite a lot of people live north of the Trent, or the Humber for that matter.
Scotland's mainland is half the size of England's with a tenth of the population. Forth container port is tiny I think so most of Scotland's containerised and general cargo probably comes via English ports. If Scotland ends up as an independent country within the EU then there is plenty of scope to grow it, while England if not overcrowded is arguably short of good infrastructure and seems headed down the plughole. And if Nicola wants to grow the economy then the central belt is a reasonable place to start.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 29 Dec 20 at 03:07
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Whether or not Covid has had an impact or not but the P&O Hull to Zeebrugge Route has shut down. It served both freight and tourist traffic. Hull Rotterdam is still functioning.
Of course Hull is halfway between Dover and Scotland. They have also recently spent an enormous amount of money improving traffic flow from the Mmotorway neteork through the City of Hull to the docks.
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I would imagine a lot of goods bound for Scotland go through either Immingham or hartlepool?
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Can vouch that is certainly the case for Immingham (Ming Ming as we affectionally called it).
Last edited by: Fullchat on Mon 28 Dec 20 at 20:20
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>> Whether or not Covid has had an impact or not but the P&O Hull to
>> Zeebrugge Route has shut down. It served both freight and tourist traffic. Hull Rotterdam is
>> still functioning.
I believe they've been loosing money on that route for a while, I guess cv19 impacts tipped it over the edge.
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Felixstowe is only temporarily rammed, by the unique short term problems of planning for (a Hard) brexit, and CV stuff like PPE.
>> comes via English ports. If Scotland ends up as an independent country within the EU
It may achieve one, but not the other in our or the next lifetimes. Tho ironically the new UK european deal, the one Sturgeon has whined about, makes the theoretical practicalities of both easier, because NI is now a blueprint.
>> then there is plenty of scope to grow it, while England if not overcrowded is
>> arguably short of good infrastructure
Currently Scottish infrastructure is worse than Englands.
This gives you a great idea of where heavy ports are and how they distributed.
www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Enhanced-W10-loading-gauge-map-of-the-network.pdf
The rest is short shelf life food, that pours through dover on lorries. NO value in stealing that trade.
>> And if Nicola wants
>> to grow the economy then the central belt is a reasonable place to start.
She needs UK money to finance that level of investment. Oil revenue is disappearing. And why should she, nothing* is made in Scotland all they will be staging consumables from Europe to England.
*In relative terms, Ditto England. These isles are a service economy, large volume banging things together will never return, ditto digging stuff out and shipping it out is dead. The only value chain leading upwards is high tech.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Dec 20 at 18:23
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Little point in Scotland expanding its port infrastructure, other than to meet their needs.
Cross-channel traffic wants the fastest and cheapest way to transport goods to the UK. The shortest crossings are the ones best placed to serve the majority of UK customers - south and east coast ports.
For end customers in the north and Scotland, the choice would be the time and cost of ferry vs road. Road will almost certainly be better for loads requiring en-route drop offs. For complete containers to Scotland there may be little difference - longer ferry ride, less miles once landed.
If capacity is a constraint, this should be in current locations, not Scotland.
More strategically, if independence is on the cards, both Scotland and England would want to have control of their own infrastructure. This would include both lorry freight and that arriving (mainly from outside europe) in container ships.
This would minimise risks in independence negotiation for both sides, and avoid the discussions which have bedevilled Brexit - customs union, paperwork, import duties, hard border etc etc.
As a taxpayer I would be unhappy if asked to pay for extra capacity north of the border unless it benefitted the whole of the UK, not just Scotland.
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Looking forward to all the new freedoms BoJo says we'll be getting.
Freedom not to travel freely
Freedom not to work or study freely
etc
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I feel so much in control I think I'll apply for my insurance green card at once.
I feel sorry for the organisers of dog shows in NI, who used to get lots of dogs and handlers over from the mainland, will now no longer happen.
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I'm sure there's no shortage of inbred mutants for them to observe, Zeddo.
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Lygonos
Coronavirus aside, where can you not travel freely to ? I’m not disagreeing with you, just enquiring for future reference as hopefully in 2022/3 I’d like to travel more extensively, health & other circumstances permitting.
HNY
Last edited by: legacylad on Fri 1 Jan 21 at 10:01
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Not totally gone.. seems they had to agree a last minute deal to continue with FoM between Gibraltar and Spain so will join the EU's Schengen zone and follow other EU rules.
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Now the transition period is over, can we travel/work/study/live (a)more feeely, (b)equally freely, (c)less freely than before?
I haven't read the 2000+ pages that have been agreed but it's pretty clear it's (c)
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Agree on the work. Not sure about study...a Chinese girl I know left Beijing to study languages at a French university. She told me that was a very straightforward procedure.
I don’t think it will make any difference on the leisure travel front. A different queue at passport control, a change in allowances at Duty Free, but I’ll still have to pay for an ESTA pre entry to the USA and a visa to go on holiday to Turkey now we’re out of the EU.
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A different
>> queue at passport control, a change in allowances at Duty Free, but I’ll still have
>> to pay for an ESTA pre entry to the USA and a visa to go
>> on holiday to Turkey now we’re out of the EU.
>>
I believe the EU visa that comes in 2022 will be similar to ESTA. It'll be valid for 3 years and cost £10.
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I don't think that they've joined schengen, but there is a EU frontex crossing point in Gibraltar. As I understand it anyway.
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>> I don't think that they've joined schengen, but there is a EU frontex crossing point
>> in Gibraltar. As I understand it anyway.
I think there's a suggestion that Schengen membership will follow.
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Probably is somewhere, whether they do or not, is another question.
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Today we are hugely constrained compared to 24 hours ago in the things we can do - a few:
- live or work across the EU with no barriers
- stay longer that 90 days in any period of 180 days
- enjoy recognition of professional qualifications in other EU states
- run financial services business from UK
- import or export goods requires customs documentation
These may be resolved in the future. Any agreement needs to be flexible to meet changing circumstances - although I can't help feeling that this was a bit of expediency to get an agreement signed, albeit with significant gaps.
Whether the short term pain is worth the long term gain through sovereignty and freedom from EU regulation is debatable.
We will probably never really know the answer. Politicians will continue to be selective with the statistics the use to support their case, and if all else fails they can blame it on covid.
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A couple of things for me that I find hard to get a clear answer via the internet...
Will there be any additional costs for items under £100 that I might have won or bought via Ebay from European countries??
Also I'm very keen to have a euro-holiday this year cv-19 permitting but I know I will have to look more closely at health insurance since the EHIC has gone, not something I've really thought of in the past (2 x 50 something's both with slight high BP).
I'm now reading that you might only need a EDL if you still have a paper licence?
As my IL's live in Folkestone we often did the day-trip to Calais/City Europe > Belgium... probably wait and see how easy that will be just to do it on a whim.
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>> Also I'm very keen to have a euro-holiday this year cv-19 permitting but I know
>> I will have to look more closely at health insurance since the EHIC has gone,
>> not something I've really thought of in the past (2 x 50 something's both with
>> slight high BP).
EHIC is still valid if issued before yesterday and remains valid until its expiry date. I wouldn't have thought travel insurance too much of a faff, I've always had travel insurance. Never relied on the ehic, I always thought of it (perhaps unfairly) as just covering the bare basics.
>> I'm now reading that you might only need a EDL if you still have a
>> paper licence?
I think you mean IDP, then yes in some EU countries you will. If you plan to travel a fair bit, probably easier to just swap it for a photo card one, which is recognised across the EU.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 1 Jan 21 at 13:06
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I think that if you have an EHIC card it is still valid until it expires. I think it will be replaced by another similar scheme.
Prior to me going to Spain early October I decided to take out another insurance policy which covered me for Covid. My LV annual policy didn’t. I stayed an additional 6 weeks and didn’t extend it...one of the conditions was that the policy had to be taken out before travel...I rang the insurers, they would speak to their underwriters etc etc. I never got it extended. Missed phone calls and I forgot about it.
From the limited amount I’ve read the 90 in 180 day rule can be overcome by obtaining a visa, something I did years ago when staying for an extended period in the USA.
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Rudedog, I've always had holiday insurance, the EHIC is very basic cover for medical only. And it wouldn't cover the cost of repatriation, which can be massively expensive if special transport requirements due to a medical condition ( - I think you'd know more about that than me though!).
You also get cover for lost luggage, delays and other bits and pieces, and often a "helpline" you can call if you are having problems.
Either you don't holiday much or you've been lucky of you've never had any of those things happens to you.
Annual policies work out cheaper by far if you are doing more than one holiday. And as said above somewhere they are unlikely to cover you for covid, at least until it's more under control.
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>> Will there be any additional costs for items under £100 that I might have won
>> or bought via Ebay from European countries??
Shouldn't be, but postage/shipping costs may increase slightly to cover extra admin for form filling.
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Yep noted that postage has already gone up, many small items that were €4.50 are now showing as €11, although that still makes them cheaper than buying from the UK (if found), just hoped we weren't going down the same road as items from the US and import charges.
We've always had basic health insurance when in Europe, just hope prices don't go up by silly amounts for people with pre-existing medical conditions.
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>> just hoped we weren't going down the same road as items from the
>> US and import charges.
I think that's pretty much inevitable as GB (but not NI) treat EU the same as any other foreign country.
One of the few bright spots of this is the thought of the leave voter formerly of this place who can no longer stock up with fags from Belgium.
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>> I think that's pretty much inevitable as GB (but not NI) treat EU the same
>> as any other foreign country.
I don't see how its inevitable, please explain?
>> One of the few bright spots of this is the thought of the leave voter
>> formerly of this place who can no longer stock up with fags from Belgium.
How is that a pleasing thought, why would you care about where someone online buys their cigarettes or anything else?
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 5 Jan 21 at 10:27
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>> I don't see how its inevitable, please explain?
AIUI there are rules about what you can import either personally or by mail/courier from abroad. There were no such restrictions for goods from the EU. Alcohol and tobacco had to be for personal consumption, and there were guideline quantities beyond which you might be questioned, as to what was reasonable for personal consumption.
Certainly for stuff brought in personally there just seem to be a set of limits; they're only different from EU if you're entering NI rather than GB.
>> How is that a pleasing thought, why would you care about where someone online buys
>> their cigarettes or anything else?
More wry grin than pleasing. Hoist by her own petard if you like. Or to use a phrase common in this household 'That's Quite Funny Actually'.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 1 Jan 21 at 16:54
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>> AIUI there are rules about what you can import either personally or by mail/courier from
>> abroad.
I'm assuming that there aren't any as of today? If so I doubt they'd be brought in, but maybe they will be but I wouldn't say its inevitable. I'd put it in the maybe/possibly column.
>> There were no such restrictions for goods from the EU.
I think the limits are pretty much the same now, bar cigs, it all seems very reasonable amounts of booze.
>> More wry grin than pleasing. Hoist by her own petard if you like. Or to
>> use a phrase common in this household 'That's Quite Funny Actually'.
I've no idea what this person thinks about new cigarettes importation rules or, for that matter their thoughts on toilet roll importation rules either.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 5 Jan 21 at 10:27
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>> I think the limits are pretty much the same now, bar cigs, it all seems
>> very reasonable amounts of booze.
The limits for beer and wine are much lower. 18 litres of wine v 80, 42 litres of beer v 110. Based on my regular observations at Carrefour in the Cite Europe the wine limit particularly would catch a fair few. What's the duty on a litre of French wine?
>> I've no idea what this person thinks about new cigarettes importation rules or, for that
>> matter their thoughts on toilet roll importation rules either.
I don't mean to labour the point but I find it mildly amusing that Brits who (a) loudly argued for leave and (b) went to Belgium several times a year and brought back 800 ciggies are going to have to pay the full UK price in future.
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>> I don't mean to labour the point but I find it mildly amusing that Brits
>> who (a) loudly argued for leave and (b) went to Belgium several times a year
>> and brought back 800 ciggies are going to have to pay the full UK price
>> in future.
>>
On the other hand, we need the tax revenue and you could argue that's a loophole that has been closed.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 5 Jan 21 at 10:26
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>> The limits for beer and wine are much lower. 18 litres of wine v 80,
>> 42 litres of beer v 110. Based on my regular observations at Carrefour in the
>> Cite Europe the wine limit particularly would catch a fair few. What's the duty on
>> a litre of French wine?
I thought they were similar, but obviously not. It's been quite a while since I've been to France to any of the booze cruise type places, probably over 10 years ago.
Still seems a reasonable set of limits to me, 25 bottles of wine per person. Although those new ones are duty free, whereas the other ones weren't?
Not a wine drinker, so I've not a clue.
>> I don't mean to labour the point but I find it mildly amusing that Brits
>> who (a) loudly argued for leave and (b) went to Belgium several times a year
>> and brought back 800 ciggies are going to have to pay the full UK price
>> in future.
Perhaps they don't mind the extra cost or have quit.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 5 Jan 21 at 10:26
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>>I don't mean to labour the point but I find it mildly amusing that Brits who (a) loudly argued for leave and (b) went to Belgium several times a year and brought back 800 ciggies are going to have to pay the full UK price in future.
The two things are not really connected though, are they?
I spoke to my Father the other day on the subject of Brexit. This is always a deeply depressing experience since he makes any Brexit voters we've ever had in here look like a bunch of cosmopolitan liberals.
He absolutely does not give a crap about any economic, financial or any other type of hardship or change. He will absolutely take advantage of duty free, booze cruises etc. etc.* and does not see any of that conflicts in any way with his desperate desire / need to return to the British Empire and stop the damned foreigners telling us what to do.
He doesn't give a crap that he's old and is making decisions that will never impact him but will weight heavily on others. He is deeply deeply offended by the idea that any foreigner can have any control or say in British life. [We have managed to avoid the various nationalities of my wife and children, fortunately].
I find it sad really, because he never used to be like that. Actually I find it also very difficult. It hasn't done family relationships a bunch of good at a time when they really should be good.
*though the days when he was capable of doing so are long gone.
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>> >> just hoped we weren't going down the same road as items from the
>> >> US and import charges.
>>
>> I think that's pretty much inevitable as GB (but not NI) treat EU the same
>> as any other foreign country.
>
>I don't see how its inevitable, please explain?
If by import charges you mean import taxes, then I should think that is far from inevitable. Unlikely in fact.
If you mean various shipping companies shafting you just because they now can, then I should think that is indeed inevitable.
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>> If by import charges you mean import taxes, then I should think that is far
>> from inevitable. Unlikely in fact.
>>
>> If you mean various shipping companies shafting you just because they now can, then I
>> should think that is indeed inevitable.
I meant either or both of those things. Gouging by shipping companies is, as you say, the more likely. I was charged duty on a Sony Scanner radio (a model never offered in Europe) that I ordered from the US 20 or so years ago. Regular importers seem to suggest it's a lottery; I suspect the same from EU now.
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I've never forgiven decimalisation for reducing what should have been 6 black jacks for a new penny to only 4.
Price gouging at it's absolute worst.
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>I've never forgiven decimalisation for reducing what should have been 6 black jacks
>for a new penny to only 4.
I find your use of that racist term offensive!
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They did the same to fruit salads as well. I thought mentioning that might have been worse.
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Pah. I was about eight, in the amusement arcade with my dad, about to go on the penny machines. The previous time I'd got 24 plays for two bob. All of a sudden, it was only ten goes.
I was outraged.
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>>They did the same to fruit salads as well. I thought mentioning that might have been worse.
Ho ho ho! Made me laugh at least.
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I thought a trade border in the Irish Sea was a 'red line'.
Guess not.
More freedoms.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55498775
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>> I thought a trade border in the Irish Sea was a 'red line'.
Indeed, Hopefully we have a funeral to watch on the tele?
Prime Minister Boris Johnson warned he would allow a post-Brexit border down the Irish Sea “over my dead body,”
Buried in the ditch I assume?
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 1 Jan 21 at 16:33
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Negotiations - smokie