Non-motoring > Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. Miscellaneous
Thread Author: R.P. Replies: 30

 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - R.P.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50216606

Doesn't make good reading. LFB management roundly criticised.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - smokie
I don't doubt for one minute that there were failings but reports like this are always easier to write with the benefit of hindsight.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Zero
> Firefighters who attended the fire did not have training on how best to combat a cladding fire, the report added.

>they had not received any training on the risks posed by exterior cladding or the techniques to be deployed in fighting fires involving cladding, the report found.


Because the ruddy stuff should not have been there and no-one told them it was so flammable.


To heap blame on the LFB is outrageous.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - CGNorwich
It seems like a statement of fact to me rather than an attempt to blame the Brigade.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Bromptonaut
>> It seems like a statement of fact to me rather than an attempt to blame
>> the Brigade.

Probably need to be careful on drawing conclusions until the full report is published tomorrow. What we're getting so far seem to be 'leaks' from the residents etc side who were given advance copies of the report yesterday. If, as is being reported in some quarters, they've egregiously breached confidentiality there could be implications for how advance copies of future inquiries are handled.

It does seem though that the Commissioner, Dany Cotton, has come in for some personal criticism for saying they'd still do same.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 29 Oct 19 at 08:50
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - zippy
>>To heap blame on the LFB is outrageous.

+100

I wonder if the next step will be to attempt to prosecute a fire fighter or management for manslaughter?

I could envisage fire fighters not attending really serious blazes for fear of prosecution.
Last edited by: zippy on Tue 29 Oct 19 at 18:28
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Robin O'Reliant
A classic case of being wise after the event.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - CGNorwich
Don't we expect experts to be wise before the event then?
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - tyrednemotional
If we take that question literally, then I think the answer has to be yes, but not absolutely/infallibly so.

Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Tue 29 Oct 19 at 19:35
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - R.P.
I bet the recent Hillsborough inquests and subsequent criminal cases has influenced this inquiry. Screw as many troops as they can now whilst the event is reasonably recent.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - No FM2R
Is it well understood that Phase 1 Scope of the report is *ONLY* what happened on the night of the fire?

And that can only cover the behaviour of the Emergency services and the residents.

It is absolutely precluded from looking at anything other than what happened on that night. Nothing about construction, materials, entities involved. On the one occasion [that I know of] they tried to stray outside that scope and consider the cladding they were reprimanded and pulled back.

So they didn't unfairly focus on the Fire Brigade through their own volition of for any reason of likely fault. They were told to and restricted to only that.

Phase 2 will examine the circumstances and cause of the disaster.

And even then Phase 2 cannot interfere with the police investigation and so will likely be quite delayed.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Zero
>> Is it well understood that Phase 1 Scope of the report is *ONLY* what happened
>> on the night of the fire?
>>
>> And that can only cover the behaviour of the Emergency services and the residents.

O right, so it was two separate events was it?

Nope, the cause is a significant reason for the failure of management of the fire.


*something has been missed no-one seems to have mentioned the financial cuts imposed on the FB and its subsequent ability, responsibility and resources to carry out inspections and risk assessments.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 29 Oct 19 at 21:20
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - No FM2R
I said nothing about whether or not it was a good approach, just that it is the approach.

They were pressured into it, I think. Media pushing for something to be done, Police not wanting their toes trodden on, "phase 2" being a much bigger/longer scope/task with significant legal implications. etc. etc.

Insofar as this scope was concerned "what happened on the night", their comments may have been harsh and unwelcome, but were any of them wrong?
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Zero
>> Insofar as this scope was concerned "what happened on the night", their comments may have
>> been harsh and unwelcome, but were any of them wrong?
>
No they are not wrong, the FB did cock up, but the why? is important, the FB get blame because the why has been separated making their actions unsupportable.

You cant take one event and split it into two.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 29 Oct 19 at 21:32
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - No FM2R
The why is vital, and for the record I do not agree with the split. But I can see how in this media and frenzy driven world then I can see how it happened.

For your entertainment...

www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/key-documents
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - sooty123
The thing that strikes me is they didn't learn much from a previous fire, lakanal house. The panels aren't something that they could have reasonable known about, as far as they were concerned they were safe. Although I believe the uk FB collectively had their own fire lab to test such things but not then.

I do think that the reasonable questions about why they left it so late to keep people in their flats has to be questioned.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Manatee
This is clearly a massive over simplification, but...

Blocks of this type were not designed for evacuation in case of fire. They were designed such that a fire in any flat would be contained there for a minimum period of time, whilst that flat could be evacuated the other residents would stay put and the fire brigade would use the stairs to get access to it and deal with it.

The fire brigade knows this and therefore the default strategy is not to evacuate immediately.

For reasons we now more or less know, the containment did not work at Grenfell. In fact, as built and particularly as clad, it could have been designed to transfer the fire from flat to flat rather than to isolate it.

At what point should the officer in charge have (a) realised this, and (b) acted on it, if they should have acted at all?

If the answer to (a) is "as soon as they heard it was Grenfell Tower" then something, somewhere in the fire service is wrong. Either the service had not heeded information that was already known, or had not disseminated it and incorporated it into procedures for specific buildings with this problem, or the OIC on the day did not do his or her job properly.

I can only assume as I haven't read it that that is what the report determines. My recollection is that experts, who had been campaigning for something to be done about the cladding problem, were well aware of the risks before the fire occurred.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Zero
>> I can only assume as I haven't read it that that is what the report
>> determines. My recollection is that experts, who had been campaigning for something to be done
>> about the cladding problem, were well aware of the risks before the fire occurred.

The FB were not aware the fire integrity of each apartment had been compromised, not as such by the cladding, but by replacement windows merely sealed in with expanded foam. and internal service modifications breaching the firestopped ducting.

The Fire brigade no longer carry out safety inspections of buildings or modification, its been devolved to those managing the buildings/works to save costs.

The similarity to the way FAA certification was devolved to Boeing is remarkable.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 29 Oct 19 at 22:08
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - sooty123
> The Fire brigade no longer carry out safety inspections of buildings or modification, its been
>> devolved to those managing the buildings/works to save costs.
>>

Some still do but aren't particularly interested in fire safety. Even in areas where it's their responsibility, they're happy to leave it to others.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Zero
>> > The Fire brigade no longer carry out safety inspections of buildings or modification, its
>> been
>> >> devolved to those managing the buildings/works to save costs.
>> >>
>>
>> Some still do but aren't particularly interested in fire safety. Even in areas where it's
>> their responsibility, they're happy to leave it to others.

I think you will find they are far from happy about it for many reasons. I have some family members in LFB and Cambs FB
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 29 Oct 19 at 22:33
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - sooty123
I think you will find they are far from happy about it for many reasons.
>> I have some family members in LFB and Cambs FB
>>

Likewise, family members with good info about this particular issue.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 29 Oct 19 at 22:47
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - henry k
>>something has been missed no-one seems to have mentioned the financial cuts imposed on the FB
>> and its subsequent ability, responsibility and resources to carry out inspections and risk assessments.

Indeed.
A recently, an early retired, ex fireman I know warned me a few years ago that trouble was brewing due to outsourcing such activities to the cheapest bidder.
Previously such activities were undertaken by fireman no longer on the front line.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - zippy
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58054431

Dreadfully poor taste and not something I could condone, but to criminalise a joke seems to impinge too far on freedom of expression.

People with effigies on bonfire night will need to be doubly careful and anyone who videos them even more so.

One comment that surprised me, and perhaps the legal bods here could clarify: "and was also ordered to pay the CPS' costs of £6,095 within 28 days." If he has been acquitted why does he have to bear the prosecutions costs?

 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Bromptonaut
Mr Busetti was acquitted by the Magistrates but the Prosecution were successful in their appeal. The costs are those of the appeal:

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/DPP-v-Paul-Bussetti-Order.pdf

That seems harsh but I expect the rationale will be that Mr Busetti had the choice to fight or not fight the appeal.

A retrial has been ordered before a different bench.

The full judgment is here:

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/DPP-v-Bussetti-Judgment.pdf

It was not the effigies themselves that did for him, it was the posting on Social Media.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 2 Aug 21 at 14:42
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Bromptonaut
Missed the Edit. The trial was not before a lay bench but in front of the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate Emma Arbuthnot who was subsequently appointed as Judge of the High Court.

As the High Court explains the circumstances were somewhat involved as the existence of a second video came to light literally as she was about to rise and consider her verdict.

Her comments make it pretty clear she was seriously hacked off by this as it should have been found much sooner and disclosed to Mr Bussetti.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 2 Aug 21 at 14:56
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - zippy
Thanks Bromp.

So as I understand it, it's OK to have and burn an effigy, but sharing the effigy on social media could get you in to serious trouble!?
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Bromptonaut
>> So as I understand it, it's OK to have and burn an effigy, but sharing
>> the effigy on social media could get you in to serious trouble!?

That was what happened here. He was charged with sending a grossly offensive message by means of a public electronic communications network, contrary to s.127(1) of the Communications Act 2003.

If somebody attending the bonfire party has reported it, or a neighbour/passer by had observed the events and complained, other charges may have been available.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - No FM2R
We now believe that everything must be approved by everybody and one person being 'hurt', however silly, is overpowering justification.

This is the sort of thing that is in such bad taste that you'd hope peer pressure would have suppressed it. Unfortunately these days the peers are no better.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - zippy
>> We now believe that everything must be approved by everybody and one person being 'hurt',
>> however silly, is overpowering justification.
>>
>> This is the sort of thing that is in such bad taste that you'd hope
>> peer pressure would have suppressed it. Unfortunately these days the peers are no better.
>>

Exactly. If any of my mates did this then they wouldn't be mates anymore.
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 2 Aug 21 at 15:06
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Bromptonaut
>> This is the sort of thing that is in such bad taste that you'd hope
>> peer pressure would have suppressed it. Unfortunately these days the peers are no better.

The video, which included commentary of a racist nature, came to the attention of survivors of the fire. Once that happened a prosecution was nailed on.

Two of the survivors gave evidence at Bussetti's trial.

I'm not saying I agree with the rationale, maybe the other cheek should have been turned, but one can see why it 'had' to be prosecuted.

As noted above the cause of action was not the video itself but the fact of it being posted so Social Media. If the bunch of chumps in Bussetti's WhatsApp groups had kept it to themselves there would have been no action.
 Grenfell Report and the London Fire Brigade. - Terry
That it was all in very poor taste is beyond reasonable opinion.

But a criminal prosecution because it was aired on social media - a woke motivated travesty. There are far more generally offensive things on social media none of which seem to generate the same level of assiduous concern for offence.

This simply provides further evidence of the ineffectual control that government exercises over social media. Easy to prosecute Joe Public, not so easy to go for FB, Twitter etc all of whom can afford expensive lawyers to fight their corner.

It is likely to do nothing for the behaviour of the objectionable who generate this sort of material except to drive them underground to avoid personal scrutiny.
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