After my less than satisfactory performance first with a paraffin heater, then with a Super Ser in the greenhouse, I have managed to persuade Mr pda that he really does need electricity in the garage.
He can have light, and a twin plug for the caravan leisure battery, and trickle charger for Bertha.
He's finally come round to the idea that if we are going to have it in the garage we might just as well have it in the shed and greenhouse too;)
Sometimes I think he humours me!
Now, where do we start?
Picture this in your minds....the garage is detached and about 8' from the house but alongside it. The shed is about 4' behind the back of the garage, and the greenhouse about 4' behind the shed.
The mains electricity comes in to the house directly opposite the garage.
We have outside electrics for the pond but they are a lot further away.
Can a wire be fitted to go over the path between the garage and the house or will it have to go under the concrete path?
Can it go overhead between the garage, shed and greenhouse.
Where do you fit a light switch and plug for a heater in a greenhouse?
And the burning question is...has anyone any idea how much this is likely to cost so I can warn Mr pda before the shock becomes too much and he decides it's not a good idea after all.
I need some woman maths, so come on guys help me please!
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Sun 2 Jan 11 at 05:37
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One days work for the right guy at best, but not underground. That could take it to three days with re-instatement etc.. Can Mr. PDA do the shovelling work? Overhead in decent conduit would/should be a cheaper option.
If I were estimating it unseen I would allow two days plus materials, say £500-£550.
The problem with getting a 'quotation' with small works is that if it is costed for one days labour and it goes to two then the contractor is out of pocket. If it is one good days slog and it gets costed at two then the contractor may price himself out of the job. 1-3 day jobs are a difficult call for us where the customer demands a fixed price.
Best regards..............Martin.
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Thanks Martin
We can do the donkey work.
Next question would be is it a job only an electrician can do ( legally).
We have a mate at work who wired all the outside lights and pond pumps for us, so could he do it?
Pat
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If he is competent then it cannot be illegal can it. Too much store is placed on 'rules'. Safety of course has to be paramount. I take it you are satisfied with his previous work.
M
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No problem at all with that but I wondered if there were any regulations that we wasn't aware of.
He comes for the price of a meal and a few beers too ( even my cooking!)
Pat
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You could get a quote from a NICEIC member. They'll want more than the price of a meal and a few beers, though.
niceic.com/
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>> No problem at all with that but I wondered if there were any regulations that
>> we wasn't aware of.
If he hasn't read the appropriate wiring regs, then he is unaware of all of them.
Personally? I would do it. I assume your heating for the greenhouse is going to be in the + kilowat range. This will increase the costs of materials, and I would have this external spur taken from the fusebox/meter on a separate circuit / RCD NOT a spur from the existing house wiring rings.
If he doesn't know how to do that he shouldn't do the job,
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...would have this external spur taken from the fusebox/meter on a separate circuit / RCD NOT a spur from the existing house wiring rings...
So getting a few extension leads from B&Q and taping the cable to a washing line might not be the solution?
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I had electricity added to my greenhouse last year. It's about 40ft from the house. I dug the necessary trench myself. Electrician charged £290 inc cable, mini consumer box, waterproof socket etc. and the work took about 4 hours. He even backfilled the trench for me. If you don't use a qualified electrician you will need to have work inspected by one since you need a certificate to be issued by local council. Apart form safety aspect you will run into problems if you ever try to sell your house without the necessary paperwork.
At the end of the day well worth it though. Opens up whole range of possibilities.
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>>If you don't use a qualified electrician you will need to have work inspected by one since you need a certificate to be issued by local council.
As far as I'm aware an electrician is not permitted to inspect just one part of an installation; he would be required to cover the electrics of the entire property. Indeed, certification is required when you come to sell, but unless the situation has changed recently, this can be given by organisations such as NICEIC and Electra.
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong...
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We had a qualified electrician run a 30ft new shower supply, fit a bathroom light to a new position, fit a new 10 way consumer unit (RCD trip type for whole house), update our earth bonding and finally issue certificates for both the new work and a test certificate for the existing house wiring. I thought it reasonable at £375.
The work you are considering does require to be certificated and falls under building regs. If you get an unqualified mate there could be a problem if you wanted to sell or in the case of any incident involving this new wiring (such as fire or electrocution).
I'm sure my guy said it was part of the regs to test all the existing wiring after the job but this may be because he had all the circuits disconnected to replace the consumer unit.
Best way (for cost) is for you do do the digging, ducting, holes in the wall, reinstatement etc so the qualified electrician's time is concentrated on running the wires and making connections.
If it were me I'd be allowing for waterproof switches/sockets in the greenhouse (may be regs for this anyway?). Also never underestimate how many sockets you want in a garage. You have mentioned two uses so say two sockets. I'd go for two doubles in the main area where you think they're needed and at least a single socket near the front of the garage which is useful for plugging in an extension cable to vacuum the car out or whatever.
However this is done you need this wiring extension to be fed from a RCD trip device at the house end.
Have a look at this link...
www.theiet.org/publishing/wiring-regulations/mag/2005/
Scroll down to the Issue 16 Autumn 2005 and open the PDF *Electrical installations outdoors: A supply to a detached outbuilding*. This gives a good overview to the job but be aware there may be extra regs in force since the article date... hence the need to use a qualified electrician to avoid any issues.
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I have no idea about the regs but in case of external buildings they always seem to have their own consumer unit.
I guess you would take a say a 30amp armoured cable from CU in the house then run it to a new two or four way CU in the garage. Then of this you can have the correct circuit breakers for the lighting and ring main circuit.
Part P and god knows what will probably apply here so it does need to done by a proper spark.
I suppose a cheaper way of doing it would be to run the cable of the existing ring main and then used fuse connection units for the lights but not sure if this is legal and it depends laergely on the spare capacity of the existing units. I have seen this done but it always looks dodgy. My grandma has that exact setup.
Have a look at a website called DIYNOT they have loads of sparkies on there which should give you an idea of what is involved, but don't ask about costs because they will bite your head off! (how long is a piece of string and all that).
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Sun 2 Jan 11 at 13:56
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My garage is integral with the house but has its own consumer unit. I agree that you would need a minimum of four sockets in the garage, I have four fitted, with an 8x extension board permanently fitted above the bench for light rechargeable stuff, car battery charger, bench light, etc. The two by the main door are used for the Hoover, pressure washer etc. Oh, and one on the ceiling for the door operator.
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Doesn't have to cover the whole property. It needs it own isolation and that is what he has to cover.
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My house is only ten years old so must have reasonably up to date electrics. There is a RCD breaker on the main house consumer unit for the garage. This supplies the consumer unit in the garage which has a RCD main switch, and separate breakers for the sockets and lights.
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I did my grandads this year he had a new spanky garage fitted there was a wire there but must have been 40 years old.
Dug a trench 1 metre under paving slabs and laid plastic hard tubbing down with 2.5 wire and rope through this which ran at 7 ft.
Wire goes into a 13 amp plug socket in house yes a 3 pin plug & other end goes into a fused switchable fuse box and run a circuit for lights and one to 2x power sockets.
It's really just a extension cable under ground and it's been like this for forty years ideally it should have gone to fuse box with it's own c/b but he wouldn't have any of that yet it works and he's used the welder and various power tools over the years.
Cost £100.00 for the lot inc c/b's and wylex box & wire re used power sockets as they were not too old.
Found tubing ideal better than metal which will rot over time.
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That is all I have done in the internal shed. but rather than wire into a socket (I think the one in my room is already spur) I stuck a 5 amp plug on it then ran the cable down into the shed to a pair of double sockets.
The 5 amp fuse will stop any idiots trying to overload it as it is only used for the flymo. Probably dosn't meet any wiring regulations but I carried out the usual basic tests on it.
If we over sell the house I think I will just remove the cable though in case some idiot replaces the fuse with a 13 amp then runs load of things from that socket causing the socket in my room to overheat. So really is purely an extension lead with a 5 amp fuse on it.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Sun 2 Jan 11 at 15:53
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Thanks guys, there's a lot of food for thought here and certainly two completely opposing ideas and whether to do it the correct way or not.
The current (pardon the pun) pond system runs on this
tinyurl.com/22vwl4j
Would it be possible to set up another Blagden box to run the garage, shed and greenhouse?
Pat
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you need to tell us what you are going to use to heat the greenhouse. We need to know how many watts you intend to use. I have no idea what those blagdon boxes are rated at.
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Never seen the Blagdon stuff but the Bodgon range is common...
tinyurl.com/2dfaka9 link shortened to restore correct width
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 19:48
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>> Never seen the Blagdon stuff but the Bodgon range is common...
That looks rather worrying!
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Something like this
Bio Green Montana Electric Greenhouse Heater - MON2.0/GB.
It has a 2KW output but the garage will get the dyson, steam cleaner,hedge trimmer etc plugged into it too.
Pat
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Bio Green Montana Electric Greenhouse Heater - MON2.0/GB.
That looks like a bog standard domestic fan heater with an expesive green plastic case.
Check the spec, Pat, You would pay a lot for the "Bio Green" on the box.
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>> Never seen the Blagdon stuff but the Bodgon range is common...
>>
tinyurl.com/2dfaka9
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What on Earth is going on there.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 19:48
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I suspect that photo is a fake, because you can't poke wires in like that because of the earth shutter which has been standard on BS1364 since its introduction just after the war.
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Ah, Rats...you can easily move the earth shutter with an electrical screwdriver.
I confess to doing this to do a quick test on something in the past !
Ted
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As any bodger will know Rattle you stick a screwdriver in the earth socket , stick in the wires and remove the screwdriver.
Definitely not a recommendation!
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Indeed I have done it myself to measure output. Maybe the screw driver was their way of switching it on and off :).
Either way if that photo is genuine it has to be the biggest bodge I have ever seen. Not everything I have done may have been strict to the regulations but I always make sure it is fused correctly and the earth is working.
I just don't bother with electrics at all now, too many regulations.
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The shutters stop the wires falling out. :-) Until you have a garage or shed (preferably both) full of "that will come in handy one day" stuff you will never make bodger status, Rats.
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I do have both, the garage is only rented though and has no electricity so is just used for storage. The shed bodge was done by using an old 13 amp extension lead, wiring into a junction box then adding a double socket into the junction box. I then replaced the 13 amp fuse with a 5 amp one just to be on the safe side.
I at least make sure any bodge is safe though, e.g connecting the earth!.
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>> I at least make sure any bodge is safe though, e.g connecting the earth!.
I'd have though the only safe "bodge" would be fed from a properly wired RCD.
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Definitely you need an RCD on the switch as it's outside/lots of water around. But you can buy sockets that come with an integral RCD.
Put a portable RCD into a socket in the house, and then just run an extension cable off it. Cost £15.
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I've got a portable RCD at the caravan Pat can have.
It became obsolete when I bought the rechargeable mower. :)
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I've got an electrician coming out this evening to price it up MM, but if it's goin to prove too expensive that may be what we'll end up doing.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 4 Jan 11 at 12:27
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>> you can buy sockets that come with an integral RCD.
I've got a couple of MK 2-gang RCD sockets that I found skipped with some plasterboard. Nearly new, too!
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>>I've got an electrician coming out this evening
Sounds like a good idea.
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Hang on to them Iffy and FT, we'll soon have all the materials to do the job with!
Pat
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Pat,
If you go the simple extension route, you will not be able to run much else at the same time as the greenhouse heater.
A couple of low energy bulbs and trickle chargers should be OK, but anything that produces heat will likely trip the RCD or blow one of the fuses.
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It is what my Grandma basically has. Her cable goes to the garage at roof level though via a plastic pipe. It then plugs into a socket in the house and goes to some double sockets in the garage. There is a 3 amp FCU which then goes to the strip light.
Never had a problem with it but it is probably ilegal.
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I put my workshop electricity in via a dedicated MCB in the consumer unit. It's got a whole-house 30mA RCD! No problems evident in the years since, touch wood.
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>> The shutters stop the wires falling out. :-) >>
Exactly. Before safety shutters were invented you had to use matchsticks, or else jam the wires in under another plug or adaptor.
Better than a screwdriver is one of those child safety plastic blanks, stuck in the earth upside down.
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He's just been and assessed it.
There is a small box next to the meter that has been fitted recently to run the shower. He said that needs replacing for a double one so he can take the electricity into the garage and fit a 'box' of some sort in there to run the circuits from for the lights and sockets.
It will all go above ground and it includes a flourescent light for the garage.
He also has to register it with the council as it's ouside.
Cost: £350
Thoughts?
Pat
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Fair price in my book if that includes all the parts and paperwork.
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Legal and reasonable - go for it.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Tue 4 Jan 11 at 15:17
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Good price for a proper job. Never worth bodging electrical work, its jut not worth the risk especially outside. Water and electrics really don't mix.
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Compares very well with our job (in terms of time/materials) I mentioned above which I thought good value. I'd go for it to get a proper legal safe result.
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It sounds like a good price to me, you know it has all been done properly and have the certs to prove it when you sell the house or your garage burns down.
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Have you checked that he is a member of the NICEIC or similar?
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Yes, he is.
And it's not our house to sell, we're tenants, but very good long term tenants!
Pat
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It might be worth having a word with your landlord. It's not unreasonable to want power and lighting in a garage.
Nothing ventured...
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I didn't make that very clear - your landlord might foot the bill, or meet you half way.
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I'm working on him in the female way:)
Pat
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Any electricians out there? - MD
