Over the last few years and particularly the last few months my left Arthritic knee is getting more painful and thus making clutch operation literally a pain over even modest car journeys.
I have toyed with the idea of perhaps exchanging my 3 year old MK & 1.4 PetrolGolf for one with the infamous DSG transmission.
My friend raves about his two year's old Golf Estate with the DSG box but on the Internet, I cannot find really find many articles that have anything good to say about these types of mechanism in contrast to the good old slush boxes with torque converters. And I doubt that whether at nearly 82 years old, I could ever really adapt to an Auto (or semi-auto) whereby one seems to lose a certain amount of fine control in awkward and confined spaces.
With DSG, I have read about its problems with overheating clutches and jerkiness in the very conditions where I would welcome a clutchless car ie. slowing moving traffic etc and creeping along especially up inclines.
Obviously, everyone keeps on telling me to go for a test drive but knowing the brevity of these at least from my local VW dealers, that wouldn't tell me an awful lot.
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I'm interested in this one too. Having driven autos for decades, all slush boxes, my last purchase was a Ford "automatic", which is an automated manual. It's kind of ok, in functionality, but as a transmission it's pretty poor. Indeed, very soon after purchase the dual clutch mechanism was replaced under warranty, but it's still not all that, with the odd hesitation, slip, crunch, etc. However, it does creep in traffic and parking, which to me is at least 50% of the point of an auto.
I have been put off the VW brand entirely by reports of the DSG being at least as bad. The nail in the coffin was when a colleague, in 2016, bought his first auto, a DSG equipped Passat. It didn't do any sort of creep - just sat there till you touched the throttle and it lurched forward.
He knew no better, so just got a determined and slightly anxious look on his face every time he parked it, but for me, no creep = no deal.
I don't know if they are all like that, or if it was a switchable option or something, but it looked entirely useless as an auto box to me based on that alone, never mind if it was going to keep working, especially out of warranty.
So, any positive reports of the DSG and handy things like "oh, bless you, you want the crisp'n'dry fourteen speed fimble modded tri-flange rotary version, ALL you have to do is make SURE the car has a vin with a 15 in the middle and isn't red, OBVIOUSLY" would be welcome to me too.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 14 Nov 19 at 10:57
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Well your friend might have have Auto hold permanently switched on.thereby holding the car stationary until the throttle is depressed or on my MT until the clutch is released. It's certainly a super system in the MT with clutch. My mate's DSG VW Estate creeps but I fouls see that he had Auto hold Off and didn't know anything about it!
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>> I'm interested in this one too.
>>
>> I have been put off the VW brand entirely by reports of the DSG being
>> at least as bad. The nail in the coffin was when a colleague, in 2016,
>> bought his first auto, a DSG equipped Passat. It didn't do any sort of creep
>> - just sat there till you touched the throttle and it lurched forward.
>>
>>
>> So, any positive reports of the DSG ...
It might depend on whether the 'box is the dry clutch (DQ200) or one of the wet clutch ones. Small/less powerful cars generally use the DQ200 which our Roomster has. I think it's horrible and I wouldn't buy another. My wife likes it, but she drives 'around' its limitation and doesn't let it annoy her.
Once rolling it's impressive, with barely noticeable changes and easy progress with the 1.2TSI engine. Manoeuvring is a different matter. It creeps a bit on the flat, although it sets my teeth on edge when it does that because it is of course slipping its single plate dry clutch and heating up the gearbox. Even ignoring that, if you touch the brake it disengages the clutch entirely, so inching up to say a wall or garage door is really tricky especially on an upward slope. Hill hold is essential. When you release the brake, you then have to wait for the clutch to come to the biting point, then press the accelerator. The car then jerks forward, you stab at the brake, and if you still aren't near enough and you are feeling brave you repeat the process.
The manual forbids "holding the car on the accelerator" which completely undermines its value as an auto for me. I can inch my Outlander with its torque converter as slowly as I like up a slope, the auto holding the car when I release the accelerator and moving at a snail's trot when I choose.
My daughter's A6 3.0 TDI has a 7 speed wet clutch DSG, the DL382 I believe. It is much better to manoeuvre, and does a reasonable job of impersonating a torque converter.
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Interesting. I don't know about auto hold stuff, so maybe that was the Passat thing. However, Manatee's description of usage would put me off that entirely. At least the Ford does drive like a "proper" auto, so gentle work with just the brake gets you to where you want to be with no drama.
No issue with releasing it entirely, the car then just creeps normally until you reapply. It also has hillstart built in, just works, you don't do anything to turn it on or off.
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Sounds a to me as though different people want different things from an auto gearbox.
I have had a 6 speed VW DSG gearbox on my GTE for the last year and a half, about 14000 miles and i love it, no problems whatever. I use and like auto hold, it holds the car when I stop and releases it when I want to move, whether it is at a junction, in a queue or when i am parking.
Maybe it's the move off in electric default that makes a difference, it certainly prefers a light foot on the go pedal but i am not a particularly heavy footed driver anyway.
i don't usually want to 'creep" anywhere, moving slowly when parking is not a problem.
In long traffic queues I find using the ACC to keep me moving at the queue speed is useful in a lot of situations.
might have an auto next time, might not, I certainly haven't been put off by the current experience
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I think DSG reliability issues are pretty much solved, albeit with regular fluid changes on the wet clutch versions
It is however a horrible box, that dumped me more or less torqueless into the middle of a roundabout in Spain. Its so iffy you have to have auto hold off, start stop off, and balance the car on footbrake and throttle to make progress on getaways. Creep is variable on slow manoeuvres.
Its so horrible that the entire VW range was not in my thoughts when i bought a new car.
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>> Its so iffy you have to have auto hold
>> off, start stop off, and balance the car on footbrake and throttle to make progress
>> on getaways.
Which sounds like certain destruction longer term, as you are deliberately slipping the clutch while applying throttle.
The design of the DSG is such that by attempting to mimic a 'proper' auto it inevitably means that established automatic drivers will try to use DSGs in the same way, which is fatal to them. I've never knowingly met anybody else with one who has even read this injunction in the manual, so I'd never contemplate a second hand one.
They were developed by Porsche for racing, because of their ability to provide almost continuous torque through gear changes. That is where they should have stayed.
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>> Its so horrible that the entire VW range was not in my thoughts when i
>> bought a new car.
I feel the exact same way.
DSG works great once you're rolling, but then so does a manual. The main reason most of us want to lose the clutch pedal is to make life easier in stop start conditions, but this seems to be something the DSG still doesn't do very well.
I also know personally of two instances where a DSG box has developed an intermittent fault that has defeated the dealer techs and their diagnostic gear. One of them involved losing all drive under full throttle acceleration when shifting up from 2nd to 3rd, but only every so often. Made overtaking a lottery.
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If your mileage is not that high and you want something easy to drive have you considered electric?
No gearbox to worry about.
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Hmmm as I expected most of these comments are somewhat off putting but not surprising. An Electric car is out of the question and is an interest of mine but new ones are too expensive atm.
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A new Toyota Corolla Hybrid (so proper auto feel) is the same price as a new auto golf.
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Or a BMW 2 Series with a proper auto-box. I really am a convert to them. The one on my last two 3 Series have been superb.
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£27,575 for an eGolf can't be hugely more expensive than a petrol automatic.
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But it will be somewhat more inconvenient if you want to go further than the shops.
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There is a very simple answer to anyone considering spending £20k+ on a car but put off with brief dealer controlled test runs... hire the same model for a day. £100 max I'd guess and you will get a really good feel for the positives/negatives.
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>> There is a very simple answer to anyone considering spending £20k+ on a car but
>> put off with brief dealer controlled test runs... hire the same model for a day.
>> £100 max I'd guess and you will get a really good feel for the positives/negatives.
>>
Yes, a good idea and have been thinking along these lines but as usual, in my life I want to find a rental firm near me in BR2 that have the model or at least one with DSG that perhaps I could hire for a day or so.
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>> £27,575 for an eGolf can't be hugely more expensive than a petrol automatic.
>>
And with a pathetic range. There are much better EVs out there such as the Kia models but at a price! I suffer enough anxiety in my life (sorry for the this comment) so don't want to add range anxiety to my driving as well.
The trouble is that across the VAG range and Skoda these DSG boxes are de rigueur.
I have looked at the BMW Series 1 but the clutch DSG equivalent mechanisms have also crept in. It is only from the 2 series upwards possibly that proper 8/9 speed slush boxes are employed and excellent they are too.
A lot of car makes employ DCT transmissions now and don't mention CVT ones!!!!
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>>A lot of car makes employ DCT transmissions now and don't mention CVT ones!!!!
All Toyota hybrids are CVT, albeit with an epicyclic gearbox rather than belt. Have you considered an Auris?
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I take your point regarding range which is an issue for you but for someone who drives comparatively short distance an e Golf would be a good choice. There isn’t a huge difference on price, the Golf Match Petrol Auto is now a fairly staggering £25530
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>>A lot of car makes employ DCT transmissions now and don't mention CVT ones!!!!
I've owned automatics since the 70's and always been averse to CVT's but, I've owned a Subaru with a CVT gearbox (they call it Lineartronic) for a year and don't really notice it is any different to all the slush boxes I've driven.
It has paddle shifters - which I use mainly for engine braking.
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I bought my Polo 1.4 petrol DSG Auto new in 2012.
My previous VW autos were TQ.
I have had no reliability issues, but in stop/start low speed driving i'm not keen.
On moving off from standstill there seems to be a throttle lag whilst the gearbox computer decides what to do.
Once moving at speed the DSG is fine.
I've recently swapped my wifes old Polo with a TQ box for a Hyundai I20 mainly because it had a TQ gearbox.
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>> I bought my Polo 1.4 petrol DSG Auto new in 2012.
>> Once moving at speed the DSG is fine.
>> I've recently swapped my wifes old Polo with a TQ box for a Hyundai I20
>> mainly because it had a TQ gearbox.
>>
Well I have just configured an ix20 and investigated and this model is now fitted with a 6 speed DCT box to replace the 'old 4 speed' Auto box.
You cannot get away from them.
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>> On moving off from standstill there seems to be a throttle lag whilst the gearbox
>> computer decides what to do.
If foot is on brake then clutch will be disengaged. When you remove your foot from the brake it takes maybe half a second for the clutch to come to the biting point. There's your lag.
I've noticed I am driving round this by releasing the brake then taking my time to move my foot onto the accelerator. At traffic lights I start this sequence when the amber light appears, then press the accelerator on green.
It's not ideal is it?
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Two friends of mine own Mazda’s with auto boxes...I’m not sure what kind of auto box, but they are both very pleased with both their Mazda reliability and auto boxes. One is a Mazda 3, the other a CX5.
For what it’s worth, Motorpoint have an ‘old’ model 2018 Mazda 3 petrol auto. And it’s in my favourite colour, Soul Red.
I have no connection to Motorpoint nor ever dealt with them so it isn’t a recommendation!
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Wife has a Tiguan with DSG and it works fine. Neither of us had driven one before we got it, but I have an older Merc with their well regarded 5 speed slushbox. I think the DSG compares pretty well, although on balance I'd prefer the isolation that fluid link gives. Neither of us use the autohold stuff - it seems a nonsense in an auto, although it's pretty flat where we are.
I did have a 1 litre Polo courtesy car with DSG quite recently and I was keen to what the box was like in that car. Again, it worked absolutely fine.
You can catch them with the wrong gear loaded in the waiting position in situations such as rolling up fast flowing rounabouts, and it can take the gearbox a moment to understand what you want it to do. Apparently it could take almost a whole second to do that, which can seem like a long time, so people panic and bury the throttle. It's a matter of learning not to over-react - the box will sort itself out.
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Thu 14 Nov 19 at 16:32
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Re DSG, are we really saying that all these folk with high end Audis, Golf GTIs, Audi RS's etc all have dodgy gearboxes?
My b-i-l has an A7 with DSG and absolutely loves it - I did query this with him with what I had read on previous posts on here and he says it is just fantastic. Know an ex colleague that was on to his third lease car with DSG. Loved it.
Maybe a case of starnage at first to its characteristics until you get used to it?
Re creep, at my last car choice was interested in Renault Kadjar but apparently its automatic does not have any creep. Defeats the purpose to me!
Me?, I am still loving my X1 with 8 speed auto.
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My Tucson has a 7 speed DSG.
It's mostly faultless. In general use it's you don't notice it. Gear changes are seamless.
Occasionally it can get "lumpy". Usually whilst creeping along in a traffic jam on a motorway. Last time it did it I was stuck for about an hour doing 2 MPH and the car got a bit jumpy - kangarooing - but not quite. I guess the performance changes when the clutches get very hot.
I guess the clutches get slipped at times too at very low speeds.
I had a 3.2 v6 Audi Tiptronic in 2007 (oh I miss that) and that had an almost faultless DSG box. It was lumpy at low speed to start with then smoothed out after a very short time. It had no problems putting 250BHP trough it in anger.
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>> It's mostly faultless. In general use it's you don't notice it. Gear changes are seamless.
>>
>>
>> Occasionally it can get "lumpy". Usually whilst creeping along in a traffic jam on a
>> motorway. Last time it did it I was stuck for about an hour doing 2
>> MPH and the car got a bit jumpy - kangarooing - but not quite. I
>> guess the performance changes when the clutches get very hot.
Well its not mostly faultless then is it.
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>> Well its not mostly faultless then is it.
>>
Yes it is.
The car has shown the issue over less than two miles from 70,000 in total in 3 years. It didn't breakdown and I understand from the forums it is characteristic of DSG gearboxes when they get very hot. The characteristics of the clutches change and the controlling computer takes a little while to adjust.
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>> I had a 3.2 v6 Audi Tiptronic in 2007 (oh I miss that) and that
>> had an almost faultless DSG box. It was lumpy at low speed to start with
>> then smoothed out after a very short time. It had no problems putting 250BHP trough
>> it in anger.
If it was really a tiptronic then that was Audi-speak for torque converter. Audi for DSG was/is S-tronic.
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>> If it was really a tiptronic then that was Audi-speak for torque converter. Audi for
>> DSG was/is S-tronic.
>>
No idea, but it did have "flappy paddles" on the steering column and the guys at work were impressed.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 15 Nov 19 at 02:18
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>> Me?, I am still loving my X1 with 8 speed auto.
>>
Let your B-I-L drive your BMW with its 8 speed, and he will suddenly realise what a proper autobox is like A lot of DSG drivers have never experienced any other type of auto.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 14 Nov 19 at 21:34
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OG I think we leave near each other (not sure why I've mentioned that).
Anyhow, I've had my Golf V 2.0 TDi DSG since new which was back in 2006, I've had it regularly serviced (40k) and it's been absolutely perfect and a pleasure to drive both in traffic and when you want to put your foot down, the combination of the PD diesel and the DSG really works.
Yes it's a wet clutch, and yes it does creep which you need to be able to manoeuvrer in close parking, also the creep really helps when on snow & ice as it allows you to pull away without touching the accelerator (with a DSG you can't change up to second even in manual until you've reached a certain speed - the newer updated boxes might allow this?).
As has been mentioned don't leave it in D at lights unless it's for 30 seconds or less, slip it into N.
I will definitely get another one and I do get annoyed when commentators run them down without even driving or owning one first.
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>> OG I think we leave near each other (not sure why I've mentioned that).
>>
>> I will definitely get another one and I do get annoyed when commentators run them
>> down without even driving or owning one first.
Leave or live? I live somewhere in BR2. A small rental and repair firm near me do have a Skoda Fabia 1,2 DSG on their books for about £40/day, I guess so could try that out.
I thought that all new VAG cars today had 7 speed dry boxes at least my 1.5 TSI Golf DSG would have were I to buy a new one before the ghastly MK8 comes out with its all electronic panel and no knobs!
I thought that in traffic the clutches would/will disengage, if stationary in traffic provided you kept your foot firmly of the foot brake or if Autohold were switched on, this would also disengage the clutches, though I cannot imagine how smoothly it would take off after 'prodding' the accelerator pedal. It seems that to avoid creeping one should allow greater distances between oneself and the person in front - all very well in theory.
I never realised how this system should require so much finesse and change in habits to get a decent smooth progress from it. Rapid gear changes aren't really my forté as I just want a nice easy time negotiating the busy roads of South London and crowded towns and save my left leg and knee from overworking
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I'm TN16, I'm sure in some of your old posts you talked about driving down/up Westerham Hill (maybe that's wrong?) which is a road I drive on daily.
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>> I'm TN16, I'm sure in some of your old posts you talked about driving down/up
>> Westerham Hill (maybe that's wrong?) which is a road I drive on daily.
>>
Ah yes, I remember. That wouldn't worry a DSG box. Going up to the T junction with Westerham High Street would be interesting though. A slow creep with stops and starts. So easy in my present Golf with MT and Autohold (never been off in over 3 years). Just stop and pull away again but of cause have to use left leg each time to release clutch.
Last edited by: Oldgit on Fri 15 Nov 19 at 16:05
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>> I thought that all new VAG cars today had 7 speed dry boxes at least
>> my 1.5 TSI Golf DSG would have were I to buy a new one before
>> the ghastly MK8 comes out with its all electronic panel and no knobs!
The 7 speed dry clutch one is for transverse engined cars up to about 250Nm torque.
The bigger stuff uses wet-clutch versions.
>> I thought that in traffic the clutches would/will disengage, if stationary in traffic provided you
>> kept your foot firmly of the foot brake
If you mean ON the footbrake then yes, it disengages. If you leave it in D, that is what you must do when stationary. On our Skoda, using the handbrake the clutch will still tug for a few seconds before disengaging.
>>or if Autohold were switched on, this
>> would also disengage the clutches, though I cannot imagine how smoothly it would take off
>> after 'prodding' the accelerator pedal.
It's the brake+being on a slope that sets hill hold. The brakes stay on for 2 seconds after the brake pedal is released or the accelerator is pressed. This is the bit I don't like, because it isn't me controlling the clutch and control is not as fine as with a torque converter. The parking in front of our temporary accommodation slopes up to the house. If I am 18" off the house wall and I want to be 6"-12" off it, I can't actually do that other than by waiting for it to bite, hitting the brake immediately, and hoping I have ended up where I wanted to. I could do that half an inch at a time with a proper auto.
If you never do that sort of manoeuvring they are not too bad provided you are patient when setting off.
>> I never realised how this system should require so much finesse and change in habits
>> to get a decent smooth progress from it.
If you are the sort of driver that wants to be in control and know what it's doing, it can irritate. If you are a heavy footed driver and not mechanically sympathetic, who never attempts precision parking and just wants a stop and go pedal, then you'll probably think it's fine. Plenty do.
As I said, on the basis of one example of each the wet clutch version seemed much better. But I still wouldn't choose it - epicyclics with torque converters are nearly as fast to change now, and much more controllable. Just a bit less efficient.
Mazda has not adopted DCTs. All their autos are torque converters.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 15 Nov 19 at 14:45
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The ZF8HP auto box is superb, specially as implemented in my G31. With autohold it does not creep, but you can overcome the autohold with judicious use of the throttle, and manoeuvre - never being lurchy or uncontrollable. Bury the throttle and it will leap away like a scalded cat. Turn off autohold and it does traditional TC creep. It can shift non sequentially, missing gears as required. When wafting shifts are imperceptible, when in sport and gunning it, it kicks you in the back with power changes like a racing car sequential box, It picks power and torque change spots better than i can in manual mode. In sports mode its always in the right gear for what you need.
In fact its so good VAG are starting to use it in some audi Rx models.
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>> >> I thought that all new VAG cars today had 7 speed dry boxes at
>> least
>> >> my 1.5 TSI Golf DSG would have were I to buy a new one
.
>>
>> Mazda has not adopted DCTs. All their autos are torque converters.
>>
Thanks, that was all very useful. Sorry, of course I meant foot ON pedal. I'm a finesse person so would miss fine but relatively rapid manoeuvres. Whenever I see a car moving very slowly in car parks etc they are invariably Automatic ones because the manual clutch isn't there and the foot brake is the only thing stopping motion.
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I don't know what Mitsubishi boxes are like nowadays, but her indoors' Colt,59 plate 30k miler has an automated manual box. Brilliant (when you get to know it). It doesn't creep, but apparently later models did. We'd have another.
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Volkswagen - Time for 'Automatic' gearbox for my VW Golf MK7!! - Crankcase
