Consider this small question about the strike on Qasem Soleimani
Was it
a: Because Trump thinks he has been ridiculed over his failure (even recalling a strike) to act on the destruction of a Saudi Refinery, Iranian bomb attacks on tankers, the downing of a US drone, and an election is looming this year.
or
b: to prevent a planed attack on US citizens and prevent WW3 as he claims.
Answers on a postcard please.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 4 Jan 20 at 21:29
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I would say it was to provide a distraction from his upcoming trial in the Senate but there again I’m even more cynical than you.
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c) The man is a complete effin idiot who may well yet turn out to be extremely dangerous.
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Don’t worry. He’s an expert on everything. From a speech on wind farms, which he hates.
“But they’re manufactured tremendous if you’re into this, tremendous fumes. Gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything.”
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Clinton launched a strike in 1999 to stall his impeachment.
Trump tweeted repeatedly "Watch Obama attack Iran to help his upcoming election chances"
Notice how the FTSE didn't even dip after the strike.
War is money, a distraction, and provides a new enemy without for Trump admin friendly media to feed to retards.
Surely dumping a load of cruise missiles on uranium enrichment facilities would fit the supposed Trump agenda better?
And what Mark said.
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For a lot of people in the US Trump represents the voice of knowledge, reason and good judgement. That's why people voted in their millions to elect him as President rather than Crooked Hillary!
To Iranians he is a terrorist - a man who in best cowboy style shoots first and asks questions later. Well - in fact he doesn't actually ask questions later because he knows he's right from the start.
I would go further than that - he is never wrong. Blowing someone up is just a way to avoid WW3 and a nuclear holocaust. Americans can sleep safely tonight!
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Trump might be scary but far far more scary is the fact that 63 million Americans were persuaded that he was fit to be President and would seem that they would vote for him again.
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If only he had gone off with Nellie the elephant. As a nipper my grandfather had me marching around his small back to back terrace singing those lyrics.
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I think the Iranians might well take their time over this one for a couple of reasons.
One their strengths don't lie in one on one direct military conflict with the US, the US are simply too strong in the ME.
Two, Trump is so difficult to read, he doesn't react in a conventional fashion, look at him with the N Koreans. They won't be able to get a read on his likely reactions. His lack of reaction over the downed UAV is another good example. They'll have to proceed with caution, their reaction will probably come through other parties. We might will see how strong their relationship is with Iraq.
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In response to tyrednemotional
twitter.com/vicdevine/status/1013463181417680898
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 5 Jan 20 at 09:02
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Perhaps its another reason to drag David Duckenfield back into court?
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For a couple of years i have ridiculed Americans for voting in a racist, egotistical liar and how they can be so gullible.
We now have his identical twin in our Parliament and millions of Brits think he is the best choice. OMFG.
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>> We now have his identical twin in our Parliament and millions of Brits think he
>> is the best choice. OMFG.
Strictly speaking, one votes for a particular candidate in a constituency election. But ok, for whom would you have voted? Corbyn? Jo Swinson - or whatever her name was?
Who was the best choice?
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>>For a lot of people in the US Trump represents the voice of knowledge, reason and good
>>judgement. That's why people voted in their millions to elect him as President rather than
>>Crooked Hillary!
No, I don't think so.
I think Trump got a lot of support not because of what he liked or promised, but because of what he said he hated or would destroy; Washington incumbents, media, pompous politicians, evil foreigners, fake news, Clinton's organisation, the tiresome and politically correct Left etc. etc.
His popularity rests not on actually doing or achieving anything, but upon continuing to vent frustration and hatred upon the things that vex his supporters.
Hilary Clinton's problem was not that she was crooked per se, but that she was seen as part of a never ending rolling ball of crooked politicians which ran the country whatever the people tried to do.
.*******
Someone to blame, however illogical, is more palatable than accepting fault or shortcomings within oneself. It's easier to hate Thurnberg than to address one's own "green" failings, it's easier to hate the immigrants for taking your job than admit your unemployable, it's easier to blame more or less anything than accept responsibility oneself. This is the new politics we live with.
Given that all those things Trump hates and that the electorate hate still exist, given that Trump continues to rail against them, then that part of the electorate will continue to love him.
And I'm not sure what sort of argument will combat that for that particular audience. Watching from afar it is also completely clear that the Democrats haven't got much idea either.
EDIT: f***ing swear filter. I cannot be bothered to re-write that bit.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 5 Jan 20 at 13:51
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Trumps success builds upon his chief qualities - he is xenophobic, racist, rabble rousing, egotistical, lying, bullying etc with the attention span of a deficient gnat.
People who vote for him are often losers in the race for financial and social success and prefer to blame others for their deficiencies than admit to them!
In the eyes of Iran and Iraq he is a president indulging in state sponsored terrorism. His original intent on election was to withdraw the US from the role of international sheriff - but that was 3 years ago and he has clearly changed his mind (possibly several times)
His command chain have effectively allowed a loose cannon control of the nuclear button - we shoud all be worried!
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50998065
Not unexpected and it's just a political statement at the moment, I wonder how much further they'll push this.
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www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51001167
"Iran rolls back nuclear deal commitments"
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>> www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51001167
>>
>> "Iran rolls back nuclear deal commitments"
No s*** Sherlock. Ooodathortit.
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A tweet from Trump a few minutes ago.
“These Media Posts will serve as notification to the United States Congress that should Iran strike any U.S. person or target, the United States will quickly & fully strike back, & perhaps in a disproportionate manner. Such legal notice is not required, but is given nevertheless!”
He’s communicating with Congress via Twitter! This guy is crazy.
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Whatever happens now, Trump will forever be a marked man for any Iranian targeting. He's toast.
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Apparently the Pentagon have changed the nuclear codes to over 140 characters to stop Trump tweeting them by accident.
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Let's hope he doesn't work out that the limit is 280 characters then.
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>> Let's hope he doesn't work out that the limit is 280 characters then.
>>
Has it been increased then it was 140 ish. I don't use it or facebook or any other social media thingamabobs.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51014352
Strange development.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 6 Jan 20 at 21:43
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By sheer coincidence started a book on motorcycling in Iran before all this kicked off. Revolutionary Ride - Lois Pryce, gives a lone female biker's view and perspective of Iran. It's a very interesting country, not quite what we're fed by the Western media.
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RP do you know of the YouTube video's from the Dutch girl Noraly?
This linked video is in the second of the Iran section of her 36,000km solo tour in 2019... India, Thailand, Oman, Iran, The 'Stans, Russia, Turkey, Croatia, Netherlands on an Enfield Himalayan.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEHmeEVd6X0
She is a little way into the next tour on another Enfield... from Ushuaia in southern Argentina to Alaska.... currently dodging to and fro across the Chile/Argentina border probably passing NoFM about now.
Starting here... www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhiOcRJxVws
My neighbours gave me the heads up on her. They are bike adventurers... stuff like flying their BMWs to The States and doing route 66... much of Eastern Europe another year... flying to New Zealand and buying trail bikes to have a couple of months there. They are really living the retirement life! They have contacts in a world travel group who comment the ordinary day to day folks in Iran are some of the most friendly compared with other countries you'd assume were better.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 7 Jan 20 at 12:18
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Wow...no, thanks - never knew about it. Will be watching it now !
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51015795
Oh dear, what a shame and all that. I have no care for Iran at all. A bunch of murderous thugs with no mercy at all. They make Saudi Arabia look like a bunch of caring nuns. If Iran didn't arm the Houthi rebels (get that - REBELS!), there would be no war in Yemen.
Blame the French - they let Ayatollah Khomeini back in (flying him Air France as well).
And now the regime hold all these innocent people as hostages like Nazarin Ratcliffe. Why do think it reasonable to even talk to them - just nuke the place. Imagine the saving of lives if we had nuclear arms in 1939. Tens of millions of deaths avoided by simply destroying Hitler and Berlin - no Holocaust, no WW2, Stalin would have had no power so no Iron Curtain.
We need to stop Iran now from weaving an Iron Curtain around the Middle East.
Sorry. Trump was absolutely right and he should keep on doing it. He's made no foreign policy mistakes as yet despite the rhetoric.
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I have no care for Iran at all.
You don't say...
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"I have no care for Iran at all. "
They certainly have a way of dealing with women who choose the wrong religion.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Mahmudnizhad
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>> "I have no care for Iran at all. "
>>
>> They certainly have a way of dealing with women who choose the wrong religion.
>>
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Mahmudnizhad
>>
>>
>>
So did we...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_Martyrs
The last execution under the disguise of treason was I believe as late as 1680!
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"So did we...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_Martyrs
The last execution under the disguise of treason was I believe as late as 1680!"
I don't pretend to understand all of Brompt's civil-service jargon - but is that what might be termed whataboutery'?
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Far later than that. William Joyce was executed for treason on a technicality in 1945.
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>> Far later than that. William Joyce was executed for treason on a technicality in 1945.
An illegal act, he was not British so can not be convicted of treason.
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>> Far later than that. William Joyce was executed for treason on a technicality in 1945.
>>
Yes there were later treason trials but 1680 was for being a member of the wrong religion.
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>> "I have no care for Iran at all. "
>>
>> They certainly have a way of dealing with women who choose the wrong religion.
>>
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Mahmudnizhad
>>
No-one is suggesting that Iran, its policies, its leadership, and its actions internally or externally is a state to admire or look up to. The question is was rejecting deals in place, isolating them, and random attacks with no good premise, a good way control, subjugate or engage with them?
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Bit of a ramble as I'm at work at the mo...
One persons rebels is another's freedom fighters. If the state in the UK was torturing and murdering your friends and family then I guess you might take up arms against the state?
Someone here believes all of the media reports and guff put out by Govts with vested interests.
My mum and dad hosted Iranian refugees in the '70s. Lovely people. They were not escaping the current regime but the western sponsored Shar's secret police who had already murdered several members of their family for supporting alternative political parties!
We are not told of the internal terrorists in Nazi Germany who fought against the Nazi system as our Govt wanted to portray all Germans as bad.
Like every country, it is only the few that truly create the countries policies and the rest are just caught up in it - and probably have to die because of it.
And painting America as whiter than white. They chose to get involved in wars around the world and become world policeman, no one asked them to and the problem is that they are not even handed which is what is causing the problems. Think of the tyrants that they supported in South America and Asia. They even helped Nazis escape to South America.
Qasem Soleimani helped in the fight against ISIS and the Taliban and he was in Iraq at the request of the Iraqi PM. The USA committed an act of war and then said don't escalate it. That's a bit like going in to a pub, decking someone then when they get up saying - ok, but don't you dare retaliate or even protect yourself.
Attacking Iran may bring all of the Arab countries together. Remember Pakistan (whilst Sunni) would probably not stand by if Iran (Shia) was nuked and that could bring in India, then China and Russia as its on their doorsteps.
The USA doesn't really care. They have lots of oil and a major conflict in the area will put oil prices up significantly - impacting us and our economy but improving the profits for the wealthiest there.
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>> My mum and dad hosted Iranian refugees in the '70s. Lovely people. They were not
>> escaping the current regime but the western sponsored Shar's secret police who had already murdered
>> several members of their family for supporting alternative political parties!
Anybody working in, or visiting, London in the mid/late seventies would be accustomed to being waylaid by Iranians who wanted to show you pictures of their friends/relatives in the Shah's prisons.
Later the pictures were of people in the Islamic Republic's prisons.
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It was only a change in management, nothing else. It was the ordinary people who suffered and still do so, only more so when Trump bombs them.
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Fall of the Shah.
Dramatised pod cast, but essentially based on real events and facts after the event
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w13xtttx/episodes/player
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>> Fall of the Shah.
Palavi was affirmed in office by the Western powers in a coup after his PM Mossadegh had the audacity to nationalise oil companies. His being deposed was a natural consequence of his less than benevolent dictatorship and allying himself too closely with the west.
The Ayatollah was invited to return by those the Shah appointed to follow on after illness had left him disabled and disordered. Don't think the French could have stopped him.
Incidentally wasn't Iran and Middle east main subject of the Caribbean summit from which Jim Callaghan was returning when he dropped the 'crisis? what crisis?' bombshell that killed his last hope of staying PM?
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>> Anybody working in, or visiting, London in the mid/late seventies would be accustomed to being
>> waylaid by Iranians who wanted to show you pictures of their friends/relatives in the Shah's
>> prisons.
>>
>> Later the pictures were of people in the Islamic Republic's prisons.
>>
My uncle worked at the HQ of an international oil company in London at the time and these were oil industry employees and their families with good skills and well educated. The travel arrangements and documents were all secured by the company.
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>> Tens of millions of deaths avoided by simply destroying Hitler and Berlin
You mean millions of Germans killed instead? How is that a better solution?
That is an entirely ridiculous statement which sheds no small amount of light on the rest of your opinions.
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>> Sorry. Trump was absolutely right and he should keep on doing it. He's made no
>> foreign policy mistakes as yet despite the rhetoric.
He has no policy. Had he done this after an overt Iranian action, say the missile attack on the refinery, or the attacks on the tankers, then that carries a message.
But this random action? Apparently the yanks are having trouble presenting any evidence of the "planned attacks on Americans" Its certainly isolated the yanks from their allies.
As for his successes? What are they? N Korea? Climate change? Iran nuclear deal? Trade penalties? Not exactly shinning examples of progress are they? Do you have any you can use to back up your statement?
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>>If Iran didn't arm the Houthi rebels (get
>> that - REBELS!), there would be no war in Yemen.
I may have got this wrong but didn't armed rebels have a hand in founding the State of Israel?
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51015795
>>
>> Oh dear, what a shame and all that.
Are we even sure some of those people were not 'press ganged' into being on the streets?
There was certainly an implication of that in an interview with a young Iranian woman on the Today programme this morning.
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>> Sorry. Trump was absolutely right and he should keep on doing it. He's made no
>> foreign policy mistakes as yet despite the rhetoric.
How would Israel react if one of their leader's righthand men were taken out by a foreign power?
Why do you expect Iran to act differently?
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>> And now the regime hold all these innocent people as hostages like Nazarin Ratcliffe. Why
>> do think it reasonable to even talk to them - just nuke the place. Imagine
>> the saving of lives if we had nuclear arms in 1939. Tens of millions of
>> deaths avoided by simply destroying Hitler and Berlin - no Holocaust, no WW2, Stalin would
>> have had no power so no Iron Curtain.
>>
You are surely not serious NS, nuking anywhere is intended as a threat which no person surely considers using. The threat is always, if you nuke us we do it to you, mutually assured destruction. A threat always on the table but never used.
It is not a subtle weapon for any evil villain wiped out there will also be thousands of innocents wiped out as collateral.
Rights or wrongs of middle eastern politics aside there are millions more who want to get on with their lives in peace, the same is also largely true of the US
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Trump unusually quiet today. Nurse must have taken his phone away.
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Only one simple question - has Trumps actions made the prospects for peace and reconciliation across the Middle East and with the world outside the Middle East better or worse.
Short term he has unquestionably inflamed tensions, and made the probability of a terrorist response muh more likely.
They can't do 9-11 again because the two towers have gone - but there are plenty of other high profile targets in either the US or Europe. Or it may be a longer response with multiple shootings and bombings around the world. It may even be direct assasination attempts on US and other political and military leaders - this could be a blessing in disguise!
It may just be that Trump had intelligence (not his but from the intelligence community) which prompted swift action. But the man is an egotistical idiot - he woke up, saw something on his favourite news channel, and ordered his troops in.
Trump is a lot like Homer Simpson - actually this comparison would be to deny Homer the respect he deserves for idiotic but consistent stupidity. Trump repeatedly dreams up something new or different to do or tweet.
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"Imagine the saving of lives if we had nuclear arms in 1939. Tens of millions of deaths avoided by simply destroying Hitler and Berlin - no Holocaust, no WW2, Stalin would have had no power so no Iron Curtain."
But if H had had nuclear power he could used it in 1940 simply destroying 2 UK cities............
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>> Meanwhile Boris the Buffoon has endorsed Trump's assassination of Soleimani.
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/08/boris-johnson-strongly-backs-us-decision-to-kill-qassem-suleimani
I'am afraid the gruaniad is rather guilty of daily express type reporting here. Nothing said in the article was "strong backing" . As the USA's major ally, it was particularly luke warm backing.
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Every sign that sense has now prevailed on both sides and there will be no further tit for tat retaliation.
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That was a pretty low key measured response.
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Quite a clever move. A further response from the USA will now make them clearly seen to be the aggressor party. Trump is shown to be an ineffective windbag. Kim will be watching this closely.
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"Trump is shown to be an ineffective windbag."
'Windbag', sure; but why 'ineffective"? He got his man, didn't he?
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>> 'Windbag', sure; but why 'ineffective"? He got his man, didn't he?
The US forces got the man.
Whether ordering his assassination was effective as away out of the US Iran conflict and the Nuclear situation is, to put it mildly, a moot point.
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"The US forces got the man. "
Silly old me - there was I, thinking that Trump had personally flown the drone. I thank you for pointing this out to me.
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>> Silly old me - there was I, thinking that Trump had personally flown the drone.
>> I thank you for pointing this out to me.
You understand the point I'm making. Howabout playing the ball not the man for once?
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Look at the long game and who is trying to achieve what. Who is winning?
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>> Look at the long game and who is trying to achieve what. Who is winning?
>>
Trump wants his troops home.
Iran wants his troops out of the region.
Perhaps he is playing a double bluff and he will use this to get his troops home.
Or start a war because Americans don't tend to change presidents in times of war?
I wonder!
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Trump is shown to be an ineffective windbag.
Not too sure that's true. He gave Iran very much a blody nose and their retaliation was a weak effort at best. Of course there might be more but do far it looks the iranians that are all bluster.
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It’s a giant game of chess. Iran has been constantly testing the US, pushing them to see how far they can go. Very little pushback from the US. Losing Soleimeini was like losing a bishop, not good but by no means disastrous. Their long term aim of an Iranian hegemony in the region remains unchecked.
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I wouldn't say they are likely to be the regional power they are too weak with too many rivals. The strike wasn't meant to destabilise them, it's more US retaliation for the death of a contractor and the attack on their base recently.
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The only rival they have in the Arab world is Saudi Arabia whom they intend to supplant.
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>> The only rival they have in the Arab world is Saudi Arabia whom they intend
>> to supplant.
The regional power and influencers are now starting to think long term. Long Term = "after the oil has gone/more likely after the market for oil has gone."
Saudi Arabia has roger all in the way of natural resources other than oil,( or mecca) so has/is moving into investing oil revenue into the west.
Iran has better natural resources, as does Iraq. Iran is going for regional natural resources.
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>> The only rival they have in the Arab world is Saudi Arabia whom they intend
>> to supplant.
>>
I don't doubt that is their intent. Achieving it? Another matter entirely.
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>> Not too sure that's true. He gave Iran very much a blody nose and their
>> retaliation was a weak effort at best. Of course there might be more but do
>> far it looks the iranians that are all bluster.
I'm seeing a different perspective.
First of all Iran is very much an effective regional power. They've got significant influence in both Iraq and Syria as well as, via Hezbollah, Lebanon. Netsur mentioned their part in Yemen. The Houthi 'rebels' are not something new, neither is the government they're fighting a wholly legitimate and secure power. Yemen is arguably not a single nation. It is, and has been since we called it Aden, a hotbed of ethno-religious conflicts. It's previously been divided into two and might be more settled if something similar were to happen again.
Iran also has fingers amongst the gulf states on opposite side of Persian Gulf and is currently exploiting conflicts between Qatar and its neighbours.
Iran has had 40 years experience of tweaking the tail of 'The Great Satan' (USA) and knew exactly what they were doing this morning. They cannot win a military battle but by placing missiles in a place and at a time where they damaged bases but caused no casualties they've given Trump the message that they could equally place them differently and cause him a lot of trouble. Multiple coffins arriving back at Edwards AFB will do him no favours come November.
Until he threw a hissy fit because Obama's deal was actually working there was a real prospect that Iran might move a bit closer to the rest of world.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 8 Jan 20 at 14:10
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>> >> Not too sure that's true. He gave Iran very much a blody nose and
>> their
>> >> retaliation was a weak effort at best. Of course there might be more but
>> do
>> >> far it looks the iranians that are all bluster.
>>
>> I'm seeing a different perspective.
I'm talking about the here and now rather than background. This doesn't change the power of anyone hugely. Yes they have contacts throughout the ME and groups they work with but bar qatar ( and iraq to a limited extent ) they have no real allies in the region.
Of course they aren't going anywhere the US strike was never meant to change the course of history it was what it was. If we only declare success in former we've set the bar very high.
but by placing missiles in a place and at a time where they damaged bases
>> but caused no casualties they've given Trump the message that they could equally place them
>> differently and cause him a lot of trouble.
Unlikely they've got capability to land missiles with that level of accuracy, hitting the base will be the limit of what they could achieve. Lobbing some modestly advanced (at best) missiles is best effort.
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Unless you have some hard quality inside information you simply do not know what capabilities Iran has now - nor what they may have available in a few years to come.
But the now defunct nuclear deal suggests a higher level of potential capability than you suggest.
In my view this sort of complacency (unlikely they've got capability) is a recipe for a major cock-up (to put it mildly)
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>> But the now defunct nuclear deal suggests a higher level of potential capability than you
>> suggest
so how did you reach that conclusion? no-one else has, except trump (which he made up on his own because it goes against what his intelligence agencies told him)
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>> so how did you reach that conclusion? no-one else has, except trump (which he made
>> up on his own because it goes against what his intelligence agencies told him)
Not clear where you're coming from here Z.
Do you agree Iran could produce a nuclear bomb?
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Currently? no they cant? Any time in the next 5 years? who knows, but canning the deal makes it more likely. Thank you donut.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 8 Jan 20 at 21:47
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>> Currently? no they cant? Any time in the next 5 years? who knows, but canning
>> the deal makes it more likely. Thank you donut.
No need for the insult.
Consensus seems to be that they have scientific ettc skills to make at least a crude bomb. They're probably held back for now by lack of fissile material which is why they're running centrifuges 24/7. It's 75 years since Hiroshima and nearer 80 since Manhattan project got under way. As well as super powers India, Pakistan, Israel and probably North Korea have them. Apartheid South Africa was thought to have one too. It's pretty old tech.
Of course Trump's tomfoolery makes it more likely that Iran will succeed. A blind man on a galloping horse could see that Obama had it right.
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>> >> Currently? no they cant? Any time in the next 5 years? who knows, but
>> canning
>> >> the deal makes it more likely. Thank you donut.
>>
>> No need for the insult.
>>
Donut Trump! Don't runaway with the idea I think you worthy of an insult.
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Israel will ensure they won't achieve an effective nuclear programme. They've done it before, twice.
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What will they do with the bomb if they get it? Using it would be committing suicide.
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The same thing we do with ours.
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>> >>
>> Donut Trump! Don't runaway with the idea I think you worthy of an insult.
>>
© 2020 Oxymorons R Us
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Thu 9 Jan 20 at 11:10
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Ah! Now we know why the Iranians deescalated so quickly
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51055219
The Yanks wont make too much fuss about it
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
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>> Ah! Now we know why the Iranians deescalated so quickly
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51055219
>>
>>
>> The Yanks wont make too much fuss about it
>>
>>
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
>>
If the black box is not returned undamaged then no one will believe them.
Looking at the video, the aircraft was on fire in the air and there are holes in the fuselage that look like shrapnel type punctures.
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>> Looking at the video, the aircraft was on fire in the air and there are
>> holes in the fuselage that look like shrapnel type punctures.
The only other explanations are a:bomb on board, b: uncontained engine compressor disk break up.
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>> Looking at the video, the aircraft was on fire in the air and there are
>> holes in the fuselage that look like shrapnel type punctures.
Occam's razor says missile (or maybe bomb on board).
OTOH could an uncontained engine failure with turbine blades acting as shrapnel bring a 738 down? Or what about cracked 'pickle forks'? If crack propagated fatally could that lead to wing folding and fatal loss of lift etc?
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>Occam's razor says missile (or maybe bomb on board).
A pundit on the radio was astonished that Iranian media showed debris being removed and dozens of people walking all over the crash site lierally hours after the plane came down. It will be interesting to see where the CVR and FDR end up because he doubted that Iran had the ability to decode them fully.
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>> >Occam's razor says missile (or maybe bomb on board).
>>
>> A pundit on the radio was astonished that Iranian media showed debris being removed and
>> dozens of people walking all over the crash site lierally hours after the plane came
>> down. It will be interesting to see where the CVR and FDR end up because
>> he doubted that Iran had the ability to decode them fully.
>>
Yes, flight investigation programs tell us that the investigators want to see how the plane impacted the ground as it tells them if it was all in one piece etc.
The puncture marks looked like they were from the exterior to the interior as there was no obvious tearing (admittedly from the web images) and one would guess these were on the inside of the fuselage.
There was also a similar hole on the tail plane.
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>> >Occam's razor says missile (or maybe bomb on board).
>>
>> A pundit on the radio was astonished that Iranian media showed debris being removed and
>> dozens of people walking all over the crash site lierally hours after the plane came
>> down. It will be interesting to see where the CVR and FDR end up because
>> he doubted that Iran had the ability to decode them fully.
I think we will find they are conveniently corrupted beyond recovery.
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"US House to vote on limiting Trump war powers against Iran"
FFS.
www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51053200
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Trigger happy Iranians always prepared to kill. No surprise.
I know it was an accident, but this all goes back to the fall of the Shah and the intransigence of the current Iranian regime where religion is not a foundation for life, it is life (and in their case, death).
Such thoughts can only lead to fundamentalism of the worst kind, and this exists in all of the major religions, but only the Moslems manage to kill tens of thousands of their own each year as a result. Theocracies will never survive in the long term as the people will eventually rebel.
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>> Trigger happy Iranians always prepared to kill. No surprise.
El Al Flight 402
Trigger Happy Bulgarians
Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114
Trigger happy Israelis
Korean Air Lines Flight 902
Trigger Happy Russians
Korean Air Lines Flight 007
Trigger Happy Russians
Iran Air Flight 655
Trigger Happy Yanks
Dont see this has anything to do with the fall of the Shah. What they all have in common is areas of heightened tensions. Do please try and keep your religious prejudices in check
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Malaysian Airlines Flight 17
Trigger Happy Russians or Russian proxies.
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I won't keep my religious prejudices in check because I am under threat and so is all the West by the religious prejudices of 99% of the people who live in the Middle East.
When was the last time a Christian killed another Christian for a matter of religious dogma (and I don't mean The Troubles). When did a Separdi Jew kill a Ashkenazi Jew for differences of opinion of religious practice? Probably never. When did one type of Buddhist kill another type of Buddhist
because they didn't agree with Zen - certainly never.
When did a Shiite kill a Sunni - oh yesterday...
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>> When was the last time a Christian killed another Christian for a matter of religious
>> dogma (and I don't mean The Troubles).
You cant just say "ignore the troubles" because it knocks a hole in your argument -
If you want to look at other "religious" killings you need stray no further than India, tho no doubt you will blame all that on Muslims and ignore Sikh and Hindus
I shall disengage from this, as I'm sure any second I shall be cast as Anti Semitic because I dare to have a balanced viewpoint, free from religious dogma.
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>> You cant just say "ignore the troubles" because it knocks a hole in your argument
Catholic and Protestant as used in reporting during the Troubles were proxies for the words Irish and British. Although the Ulster churches take a dim view of the Pope none of the fighting was over interpretation of the gospel.
It is however equally true to say that at least some conflicts portrayed as Sunni v Shia brutality have many other roots such as clan/tribe and disputes over territory and resources.
The biggest and most suppurating sore in the Middle East is of course the treatment of Palestinians............
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>I won't keep my religious prejudices in check because I am under threat and so is all the West by the religious prejudices of 99% of the people who live in the Middle East.
So, you are saying that because you believe that religious prejudices are a problem in the Middle East the best thing for you to do is to add to that with your own religious prejudices.
But presumably yours are ok because you agree with them?
Ridiculous.
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Just because one nation is full of murderous Shiites doesn't excuse Israelis shooting stone throwing kids with live rounds.
Maybe makes you feel a bit better about it though.
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With mounting evidence, inc now it seems video, you'd think the Iranians would come clean, maybe try and shift blame to trump for igniting tension. Denying it and calling it lies and Western physiological warfare is a mistake.
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Usual procedure is to deny vehemently then say you are investigating then blame it on rogue units operating on their own initiative. If necessary they can then be put on trial and shot.
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>> Usual procedure is to deny vehemently then say you are investigating then blame it on
>> rogue units operating on their own initiative. If necessary they can then be put on
>> trial and shot.
Yeah, your crystal ball is probably spinning in the right direction.
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>> Usual procedure is to deny vehemently then say you are investigating then blame it on
>> rogue units operating on their own initiative. If necessary they can then be put on
>> trial and shot.
Reports in UK media say the French accident investigation unit have been invited to assist. It was being suggested yesterday on PPRuNE that French, German or (outside bet) UK investigators would be brought in.
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>> Reports in UK media say the French accident investigation unit have been invited to assist.
>> It was being suggested yesterday on PPRuNE that French, German or (outside bet) UK investigators
>> would be brought in.
>>
I think you are right re the French and possibly German. The French have been communicating with Iran for some time.
Not convinced that UK investigators would be brought in. Iran considers the UK to be a "Sly Fox" and very much beholden to the USA.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 10 Jan 20 at 13:38
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>> Not convinced that UK investigators would be brought in. Iran considers the UK to be
>> a "Sly Fox" and very much beholden to the USA.
That's why I described UK AAIB as outside bet with French BEA or German BFU as most likely.
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Zippy,
Was the edit to your post at 13:38 adding the first para? I'd swear when I first saw it was just the second.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 10 Jan 20 at 13:40
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>> Zippy,
>>
>> Was the edit to your post at 13:38 adding the first para? I'd swear when
>> I first saw it was just the second.
>>
Yep. Thought if only fair to acknowledge your comment re France and Germany also.
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It is too early to say with any certainty what happened. There are several plausible possibilities:
1. A nervous trigger finger in the Iranian military interpreting every radar signal as a threat
2. A deliberate act of sabotage/terrorism on the part of some-one
3. A retaliatory missile from a US base thinking that the plane was a threat
4. A deliberate act by Iran or Iraq seeking to implicate the US or ISIS.
I have no confidence in the honesty of politicians who may fabricate explanations to meet their own agendas in Iran, Iraq or US (Trump).
It needs an independent review by a relatively independent competent authority (France?) to look at the evidence from flight recorders, analysis of wreckage, and any other data (eg: radar imagery). We may then get a credible conclusion.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51073621
Lets see what they have to say following all the rhetoric at the time of the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655.
Very sad and a total waste of life.
CGN seems to have called it earlier at 12:54.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50902476
Couldn't have come at a worse time for the region. Oman was the UK's traditional go-between for speaking to iran (and others )
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51073621
>>
>> Lets see what they have to say following all the rhetoric at the time of
>> the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655.
>>
>> Very sad and a total waste of life.
>>
>> CGN seems to have called it earlier at 12:54.
He has wisdom that beyond a boi from Norfuk.
rhetoric? there is always surprisingly little given the magnitude of such events, which are not that uncommon.
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>> Yep. Thought if only fair to acknowledge your comment re France and Germany also.
Glad I'm not going mad!!!
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>>
>> Glad I'm not going mad!!!
>>
I’m not sure that we are qualified to support or deny that hypothesis!
You do post to this site after all! ;-)
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Oh well, fascist regime so used to lying to its own people lies to the rest of the world and get caught with their pants on fire. What a bunch of idiotic t**s.
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Sum total of Iran's "severe revenge":
50 Iranian civilians die at the funeral in a crush, 176 innocents die in a military mistake.
Job jobbed then - the US have learned their lesson....
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>> Sum total of Iran's "severe revenge":
>>
>> 50 Iranian civilians die at the funeral in a crush, 176 innocents die in a
>> military mistake.
>>
>> Job jobbed then - the US have learned their lesson....
>>
>>
It's almost always the innocent civilians that get hurt in these "wars".
I recall in a book (Garden of Rama or similar) where if a war was declared the leaders on all sides had to sign their own death warrants to acknowledge the gravity of the situation and impact to life and material. The death sentence was carried out even if you won.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to introduce that here!?
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>> I recall in a book (Garden of Rama or similar) where if a war was
>> declared the leaders on all sides had to sign their own death warrants to acknowledge
>> the gravity of the situation and impact to life and material. The death sentence was
>> carried out even if you won.
>>
>> Perhaps it would be a good idea to introduce that here!?
Its kind of traditional in the west for the losing leader to end up dead*, its a pretty good performance incentive.
*In some spectacularly public, gruesome and humiliating way.
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>>Its kind of traditional in the west for the losing leader to end up dead*, its a pretty good
>>performance incentive.
I think it made them go all out to destroy their country to protect themselves.
If they knew beforehand then it is very unlikely that a war would be fought and if it was then there would be little incentive to "go on to the bitter end" and destroy ones country in the process.
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>> Sum total of Iran's "severe revenge".....
Chances are that the unfortunate downing of that flight has saved ua from immediate escalation.
I should think the US has increased its chance of a terrorist attack even if only from some radicalised individual nutjob.
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Qasem Soleimani - CGNorwich
