Motoring Discussion > A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Bromptonaut Replies: 13

 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - Bromptonaut
My daughter works for an arm of the NHS. As such, from time to time, she has a hire car for work travel arranged through a contract with a large and well known hire company.

She had a car booked from midday on 22 January to undertake a trip to an work site in SW England. For operational reasons the hire company delivered it to her home in NE Wales at around 10pm on the previous day - 21 January. It was left on road outside her house. She remembers being in bed and hearing the rental company guys outside and keys being dropped through her letterbox.

She left the car there until hire formally commenced and then drove to her destination and did whatever was needed. The car was either returned or collected.

Today she has had a S172 from the N Wales police requiring her to name the driver as vehicle was caught at 58 in a 50 by average speed camera at 21:56 on 21 January. Westbound and on obvious route from hire co site to her home. Obviously the initial notice has gone to the hire company and they've named her.

She's obliged to return the S172 and will do so with a suitable explanation as to why she cannot name the driver. She will also involve the contracts folks at work to take in up with hire company.

Is there anything else she should do and, given that those receiving S172 notices will, perhaps rightly, be hard bitten sceptics is there anything else she should do or be prepared for?
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - Terry
She may be well advised to ensure that she documents any conversations with her contracts staff and keeps on top of what they are doing to "uninvolve" her from the speeding ticket.

My experience in the public sector is that contracts staff often take the line of least resistance (with the hire company) rather than assert her innocence.

Note that she cannot legally have driven the car before the hire commenced as she would not have had insurance! Additionally until the hire period commenced the hire company drivers were the only ones who wouud have the authority to drive the car. She should insist they disclose the name of the delivery driver.
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - Bromptonaut
Update:

She has spoken to the contracts people at work and they have in turn advised the rental company of the facts.

A member of the HJ forum who clearly knows his stuff around S172 etc has helpfully pointed out that the responsibility of the keeper under S172 are different to those of "any other person". Obligation on latter are fulfilled if she provides any information which it is in her power to give and may lead to identification of the driver

My daughter will return the S172 stating that she was not the driver and she cannot name the person involved. She will however say believes him/her to be an employee of Bighire PLC at their Chester depot. She will go on to recite the timings of hire/delivery and recollection of hearing the car arrive and keys put through letterbox.

A copy of the documentation she was sent confirming the hire will be appended
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - R.P.
The car concerned is quite likely to have a tracker fitted (all the vans that the NHS hired in locally had them) - they should be able to pin that on the driver in question
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - Bill Payer
I suppose the hire company will have handled this at head office and will blame a dumb admin person but it's a bit 'naughty' to just name the hirer when the car wasn't on hire until mid-day the next day.

10PM seems very late to deliver a car - perhaps the drivers put it down as being delivered much earlier.
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - Bromptonaut
>> I suppose the hire company will have handled this at head office and will blame
>> a dumb admin person but it's a bit 'naughty' to just name the hirer when
>> the car wasn't on hire until mid-day the next day.

I think, Daughter's employer's contracts people having got involved, that Bigcar rental PLC are looking into it an may tacitly admit they've 'gone Pavlov' without looking into it properly.
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - smokie
I get many of your phrases but 'gone Pavlov' ...?

Maybe the delivery driver wasn't supposed to have the car at that time either, so may deny it to his company, further complicating matters. He might have been delivering it by, say, 4 pm and just gone for a spin in it, seeing and illicit girlfriend or something. Like you do... :-)

They could ask to see his Google maps history on his phone (though he may not use a phone or have deleted history).
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - Bromptonaut
Pavlovian reaction: An automatic response to a condition or stimulus:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

The presence of a ticket elicits Pavlovian response in the hire company where they blame the hirer even if, as in this case, that is not the appropriate reaction. Cannot remember where I first heard it but Mrs B, a scientist, was familiar with it from before we met and it's always been part of our household vocab.

Why they delivered it late evening rather than next morning I've no idea. We thought just operational convenience.

If driver was on a 'frolic' then that might be another complication.
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - No FM2R
>>10PM seems very late to deliver a car

I don't think so. I used to have cars get delivered at all sorts of times from the afternoon before all through the night.

It makes sense really, from an operational point of view. Imagine the amount of vehicles that need delivering for the next working day.

It was always noted though that it shouldn't be driven until the rental agreement had actually commenced.

>>I suppose the hire company will have handled this at head office and will blame a dumb admin person

You'd have thought that their records would have shown the rental starting the next day. I could understand the easy mistake if it'd been stopped at 1.00am, say, on the rental day. But the previous date seems a stretch.

Still, incompetency is usually a better bet than conspiracy.
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - R.P.
ditto...cars delivered the day, evening before the contract commenced, including one from a very well known hire company with a "disabled" tax disc.
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - VxFan
>> ditto...cars delivered the day, evening before the contract commenced,

Happens all the time here at work. Sometimes delivered up to 2 days early and left in the firms carpark until needed by the renter.

Some hire car companies prefer the expensive cars to be out on "rolling" stock rather than sat in their compound where potential thieves are likely to strike.
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - No FM2R
They try to smooth out delivery / collection spikes. If you retain the ability to cope with a peak that means idle staff in a trough.

Delivery / collection planning is quite the thing. Including knowing where it will be needed next, if/when maintenance will be required as well as coping with 'incidents'.
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - tyrednemotional
>>
>> Still, incompetency is usually a better bet than conspiracy.
>>


....Hanlon's razor....
 A S172 Question- Speeding and Naming Driver - No FM2R
>> >>
>> >> Still, incompetency is usually a better bet than conspiracy.
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ....Hanlon's razor....
>>

Indeed. But he put it more betterer.

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
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