Non-motoring > Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported.	Computing Issues
Thread Author: No FM2R	Replies: 29

New Thu 13 Feb 20 21:06   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

Here on a visa, attacks a man with a wrench sufficient for a 15mnonth sentence, gets deported. Not only is he hurt and shocked, the BBC are reporting it. It is further pointed out that 17 other Jamaican nationals on visas, all of whom have received prison sentences of more than 12 months are all also being deported. Of course, he got the deportation order three years ago but somehow it's still come as a shock. And he's bemoaning the impact on his family including his children. Presumably he didn't think they'd mind the 15 month jail sentence? Tough s*** Pal. you're on a visa, you broke the law, you're out of here. And may many more who do the same follow you. www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-51481701/jamaica-deportation-i-m-numb-hurt-wounded Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 13 Feb 20 21:12   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Bromptonaut

I don't know what led him to situation where he took up a wrench as a weapon. Unprovoked assault is one thing. Self defence gone titzup is another. I just have a feeling that Ms Patel and government generally are more concerned with headlines in the Mail than treating people and families equitably. Have we learned lessons of Windrush? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 13 Feb 20 21:43   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Lygonos

On a Visa is the point. Not a citizen. Agree with NoFM2R. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 13 Feb 20 22:06   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Lygonos

I guess Rolf Harris had the nous to sort out his British citizenship. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 13 Feb 20 22:38   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - zippy

The recent actions by the Home Office and Govt to deport someone or remove their citizenship should make anyone of non UK heritage worried. Imagine someone having lived in this country all their life and speaking only English being deported to Pakistan because his parents were born there and therefore he could claim citizenship there. Or, as a certain opposition leader pointed out, an Eton educated drug user being sent back to the country of his birth. What are the odds? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 13 Feb 20 23:26   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Terry

I expect visitors to our country (UK) to have regard for acceptable behaviours norms. Whilst I do not welcome minor indiscretions this is not necessarily a reason for deportation, particularly if they have a long history in the UK and family ties. But I have no doubt that foreign nationals committing serious crimes should be deported. Quite simply we should not want them here - they are a real risk to the rest of the community. The delay in so doing is unacceptable - justice should be swift if the case is unambiguous not extended over several years. Families have the choice of joining the deportee or remaining in the UK. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 08:35   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Bromptonaut

>> >> On a Visa is the point. Not a citizen. >> >> Agree with NoFM2R. I suspect he had indefinite leave to remain. I've no issue with the generality of deporting people who come here and commit serious offences. I am uneasy about some cases, particularly those who came here as minors and the level of offending in some instances. Don't know enough about this particular man's crime to be clear but some individuals were reported to have been groomed into 'county lines type drug dealing. Government playing to the gallery rather than acting sensibly and humanely. How on earth can they get proper advice if they're issued with phones that don't work? How long was that problem extant before something was done? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 09:16   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - PeterS

Somewhat off-topic, but can a problem be extant...? I thought it meant something that is still in existence despite being old. As in an old/ancient documents, records and the like... Not an alternative to exist.. Happy to be corrected, though it’s not a word I’d use I don’t think. It’s not even shorthand, since there are two fewer keystrokes in typing ‘did that problem exist’ ;) Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 09:51   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Bromptonaut

I think you're right Peter. My dictionary (Collins) defines the word as meaning still in existence; surviving. It actually contains a usage note to effect that it is often used, wrongly, in place of exists without the connotation of survival. The Thesaurus though suggests extant as a synonym for exist/existent/existing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 12:43   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

I repeat.... Tough s*** Pal. you're on a visa, you broke the law, you're out of here. And may many more who do the same follow you. I have no level of discomfort about that at all. If he doesn't like it, then maybe he should have thought about that before attacking someone with a wrench. He didn't seem to think leaving his children alone while he was in prison was a bad thing. And perhaps everybody else on a visa should bear it in mind, also. Don't commit a crime, don't get kicked out. Easy. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 13:31   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Netsur

Wasn't there a bloke in Australia who was deported back to the UK having lived there for 30+ years. He arrived with his parents at a young age, they had died, he had no papers to prove he was permitted to remain there, so having committed a crime he was deported to the Uk, a country to which he had no ties at all, as all his family was south of equator.. But just because someone has children or a partner isn't enough reason to let them stay. Their children and partner could go with. However some proportionality should bear on it. If you have not left the UK for anything other than a short holiday for in excess of say 20 years could mean that you cannot be deported unless you are an illegal immigrant. I would add that anyone who came here as a child should be immune from this regime. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 15:23   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Bromptonaut

>> I have no level of discomfort about that at all. If he doesn't like it, >> then maybe he should have thought about that before attacking someone with a wrench. He >> didn't seem to think leaving his children alone while he was in prison was a >> bad thing. Where in any of the reports does it mention a visa? Anybody here for something like 20 years having arrived as a child will have Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR). ILR is one stop short of citizenship and includes, for example, the right to claim benefits. Very different from a Visa which gives permission to be here for a specific purpose (Eg study or as a spouse) and has restrictions including 'No Public Funds'. We don't know the facts as to why he attacked somebody with a wrench. Revenge for being cuckolded is one thing, overdoing it in defence of self is another. He certainly didn't do it with intention of going to jail so I'm not following the rationale about his kids being abandoned while He was inside. Neither does the 'his kids could/should go to Jamaica bit hold water. Jamaica is, away from the 'safe' tourist hotspots, a pretty rough and dangerous place. It would be utterly disproportionate to effectively deport them too. I'm not against the principle of deportation for criminals I just think it's being used as a sledgehammer and primarily for news headlines. Rishi Sunak was banging on about murderers and rapists when put on the TV to explain these cases but a lot of the offending is much further down the scale. As Netsur says it has to be proportional. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 14 Feb 20 at 15:24 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 15:44   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

>>ILR is one stop short of citizenship Exactly. *NOT* citizenship. Thank you. >>We don't know the facts as to why he attacked somebody with a wrench No, and neither do I care. The court did and they thought it worthy of a 15 month prison sentence. And that is more than 12 months and so he is out. If he's worried about his children then he should have thought about that before whacking someone with a wrench. If h didn't think that might cause him to end up in jail then he is thick as well as undesirable. Drop kick him over the border. He's not ours, we don't want him. I don't see why you are struggling to understand this. He. Is. Not. Our. Problem. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 14 Feb 20 at 15:44 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 15:53   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

By the way, ILR is an immigration status that one applies for and is granted. It is not unconditional. It is the stats my wife has in the UK and that I have here. It can be revoked and there are rules defining when it will and will not be. The rules are written down. If they offend you then campaign for them to be changed, though I wouldn't count on much support. Arguing for them not tp be enforced is silly.. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 15:55   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Bromptonaut

>> I don't see why you are struggling to understand this. He. Is. Not. Our. Problem. I understand why you think that. I disagree, primarily on basis of fact he was here well before adulthood but I'd also like to know more about the offence We don't know if wrench was used with malice aforethought or as a weapon that fell to hand. We have different views on this; that's life. I also think governments of both stripes have monkeyed about with definition/conditions for ILR; that was part of the Windrush mix. Like much of our immigration law it's a mess where even lawyers who specialise struggle to follow it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 16:05   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

1) He is here on a conditional visa (immigration status if you prefer). 2) One of the conditions is "if you get a prison sentence of more than 12 months you can be deported" 3) He got a prison sentence of more than 12 months. 4) He is being deported. It is so easy it's ridiculous. There's no disagreement relevant. If you don't like the law, then campaign to have it changed. But that is the law. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 14 Feb 20 at 16:06 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 16:39   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - sooty123

> I understand why you think that. I disagree, primarily on basis of fact he was >> here well before adulthood but I'd also like to know more about the offence We >> don't know if wrench was used with malice aforethought or as a weapon that fell >> to hand. I don't see how you could have a policy based on something so subjective. I'm not sure it's practical looking into someone's mind at the time of the offence. It surely would create a round of near endless appeals based on previous wholely subjective policy. At least with the 12 month prison sentence as the threshold it's clear, simple and obvious. And it's not as if we are chucking people out for forgetting to pay a parking ticket Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 18:27   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - zippy

>> I don't see why you are struggling to understand this. He. Is. Not. Our. Problem. >> I was expecting an "END OF" there. :-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 16:11   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Manatee

Are deportation orders made by a court? If not they should be. Then the principle of equity can be applied to 'hard cases' as the court thinks appropriate. As far as ILR is concerned - my understanding of the ordinary meaning of "leave to remain" is that his right to stay is is by let, not by right. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 16:13   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

>> his right to stay is is by let, not by right. Correct. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 20 18:13   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Haywain

Some 10 years ago, my wife was teaching at a cat C prison; she reckons that about a quarter of her clients were blokes awaiting deportation, usually for drugs offences and usually to the West Indies. Their prime aim whilst awaiting trial was to get their girlfriend pregnant so they would have an argument against deportation. Deportation of criminals after their release has been going on for years, I don't see why it has suddenly become hot news. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 14 Feb 20 18:24   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Lygonos

>>Their prime aim whilst awaiting trial was to get their girlfriend pregnant so they would have an argument against deportation Also used by UK scumbag citizens trying to avoid extradition. Doesn't work but they don't care because they are selfish pieces of crap invariably guilty of whatever they are due to be extradited for. Someone genuinely not guilty would not risk having a kid that they'd be separated from IMO. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Sat 15 Feb 20 11:47   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Bromptonaut

There's a Commons Briefing Paper on subject: researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8062/CBP-8062.pdf In brief, deportation is automatic for foreign national offenders sentenced to more than one year - that is sentence not period served. The regime appears to be deport first and appeal later which obviously places hurdles, which may be in practice insurmountable, in way of actually making an appeal. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Feb 20 14:55   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

>>The regime appears to be deport first and appeal later Good. That will stop them appealing frivolously just to delay the process. In Chile now in-country visa changes are no longer permitted. er.g. if one is on a tourist visa and wants to change to a residential visa, then one has to leave the country to apply. Ditto - residential to spouse, anything to working etc. etc. That should be the same in the UK. Visa applications should not be accepted from anybody within the country. You apply from wherever you are based and uf your visa is refused, then you appeal from wherever you are based, not from within the UK. People should not be allowed in while their case is processed, they should be kept out until their process is complete. The same for asylum cases, though obviously you'd want a very fast process for that. Nobody should get across the border if they need a visa without having a visa. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Feb 20 15:01   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Bromptonaut

>> >>The regime appears to be deport first and appeal later >> >> Good. That will stop them appealing frivolously just to delay the process. The tribunal or court can deal with frivolous appeals under case management and are increasingly robust in doing so. There are well documented problems for appellants trying to pursue 'out of country' appeals; exactly the issue facing Shamima Begum. Quite simply people with no money stuck in the back of beyond cannot properly and fully participate in their cases. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Feb 20 15:13   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

>>The tribunal or court can deal with frivolous appeals under case management and are increasingly robust in doing so. There is no need for an appeal in country. If you don't have the appropriate visa, then you don't get it. If you wish to change your visa you go out to do it. If you break the laws you get kicked out. Appeals should not be handled in country. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Feb 20 18:13   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Bromptonaut

I know No FM says he's out of this but I'll still say while I think it needs more nuance. >> If you wish to change your visa you go out to do it. Suppose you're in well paid work in the NHS or a University and paying taxes etc. Because of a change in your job you have to move to a different tier of visa. You have to go back to India to do that? That's expensive, disruptive to both employee and employer and carries risk that employee goes somewhere more friendly. That just looks vindictive; shades of the hostile environment. >> Appeals should not be handled in country. Of course they should. It's been repeatedly found that appellants abroad are disadvantaged in conducting their appeals. It effectively allows on party to the appeal, the Home Office to hobble the appellant. There's a Supreme Court decision that says exactly that. Amelia Gentleman's book on Windrush gives crystal clear examples. . And the idea that you claim Asylum out of country is nonsense in stilts. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Feb 20 15:14   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

>>exactly the issue facing Shamima Begum I have absolutely zero sympathy for that woman. Not a s*** is given. My only point is that crap should be dumped where it belongs, and she belongs with us - citizen, you see. Absolutely NOT the issue facing here, she is NOT appealing a visa refusal or a deportation. Utterly, entirely different. In her case you are arguing for the rules to be followed (fair enough, I agree) in this case you are arguing for the rules not to be followed. Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 15 Feb 20 at 15:15 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Feb 20 15:17   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - No FM2R

And I don't wish to continue this. My position is clear, fair and according to our laws. That's all there is to it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Feb 20 15:25   Convicted violent criminal shocked to be deported. - Bromptonaut

>> My position is clear, fair and according to our laws. Some of our laws are neither clear nor fair as per various links in the briefing paper. That's all there is to it. But let's call it a day and agree to differ. Reply to this message | Report message