Reliable cars those Renaults, it is no wonder they get so many recommendations - as members of the EU it is our duty to show solidarity with our French neighbours and support their car industry, even if it does mean giving up pension contributions to give extra support to Renault parts departments.
Of course you have to wonder about the IQ of anyone who buys one in the first place given the volumes of information about the ownership 'experience' that awaits a new owner.
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Another happy Espace owner. He must have been paying through the nose for fuel too.
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But all that distance on the back of a recovery truck will keep the average mpg down. ;-)
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If you scroll down through the description and comments etc, I was mildly amused to see the number of "people who bought this , also bought one of these" (or words to that effect), which showed lots of Renault Espace workshop manuals!
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I always feel a little sad when I see tales of Renault woe - usually from the period 2000 to....whenever quality control got a bit better. I think Humph had a similarly disastrous Espace.
I had one from new as a company car in 1988 and did 125,000 miles in it with no major problems apart from a head gasket at 100,000 miles + (forgivable): our four children loved it and still remember it fondly. It was followed by a Safrane and a Laguna V6 which both did 6-figure mileages equally reliably. But all were pre-2000.
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Ere!! .. I wonder what tovarish Alanović is going to say when he sees this thread.
:o)
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Mrs B had a 95 Laguna and she loved it. First larger car she had and a replacement for her awful Rover 114 GSi.
She loved it to bits, but when we got to around 130K after about 12 months of ownership things started to fail to regularly, and she was now working odd shifts such as nights so the need for something more reliable became a priority.
She still speaks fondly of the Laguna, and would happily have another one, however, I'm not that brave
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Good advert, remarkably restrained language, i'd probably have torched the heap long ago.
I wonder if our Humph was quite so reserved in his fuming during his happy Espace times..;)
I had a Reno 21 Savanna (estate) many moons ago, one of the best and most reliable cars i've ever owned caretainly the most comfortable by a long way, surprisingly easy to work on too, head off for slight gasket oil leak and whilst in there dropped sump to check bearings and pistons/rings and removed decoked and reground the valves, almost a pleasure to work on.
Found no wear worth mentioning at around 120k, but it had been subject to an annual or 10k service all of its life.
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Apart from a Renault 12 which I loved, but was too long a time ago to be relevant I had a 97 1.4e Megane which was 100% reliable but very very underpowered, however the next but one car was a 2002 1.6 16V Megane which was fast but was made in their bad period and needed annual replacement of the coil packs, a wiper motor and control stalk, lambda sensor and battery in the 2nd year. Also sometimes it was hard to start and when it did would briefly rev to to the red line which was never resolved.
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>> Apart from a Renault 12 which I loved, but was too long a time ago
>> to be relevant I had a 97 1.4e Megane which was 100% reliable but very
>> very underpowered, however the next but one car was a 2002 1.6 16V Megane which
>> was fast but was made in their bad period and needed annual replacement of the
>> coil packs, a wiper motor and control stalk, lambda sensor and battery in the 2nd
>> year. Also sometimes it was hard to start and when it did would briefly rev
>> to to the red line which was never resolved.
>>
I had a number of Renault 12s when I was younger, great cars! Bought my lad an early 1996 1.4e Megane when he was learning to drive, had around 90,000 miles on it but had no real problems with it once the coil was replaced. He had it for about 5 years, but the engine was a sweetie, the oil came out of the engine every year looking as it did when it went in, clean as a whistle. Not much performance, but I used to thrash it a bit and it was fine. Bit of a hoot to drive really.
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>> I had a number of Renault 12s
Could have sworn I saw a blue one on telly last night. Think it must have been plodding around India on the Wheeler Dealer's Trading Up I watched on Sky+. Either that or it was in Pyongyang on Panorama.
Must have been India - a Renault 12 in North Korea would be nothing short of a miracle.
Suppose it could have been a Dacia Denem from Kommunist Romania.
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I misread that as "tosh", Dog, and thought you were being unusually provocative. Not generally in your nature though, is it.
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Provocative? moi? - go and wash your mouth out with Tequila Cc.
;)
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Never tasted it. And never will. Not allowed alcohol. Ah well.
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I haven't tasted it either Cc, the missus has though, many moons ago, it must be quite awful if y'all have to drink it with salt and lime!
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Our 2004 Grand Scenic was great until the warranty ran out. I used to defend it on the old place, as it was reliable, comfy and super-practical. Then lots of silly things started going wrong, culminating in the clutch slave cylinder exploding and immobilising the car. This was at 54,000 miles.
Reading the cost of repairs in this eBay ad brings back horrible memories. Renault parts prices are disgraceful, and the cars seem deliberately designed to maximise dealer labour revenue with a mechanical layout that makes every job take twice as long as it would on a proper car. Also the depressing knowledge that every stupid fault was well known, common, and that the replacement parts contained the same defective design that almost guaranteed the fault would reoccur at some point.
Above all, what did it for us was the uncertainty. What new, stupid fault will occur today, and how much will it cost to get fixed? We couldn't live with it any more. Don't need that sort of stress from family wheels.
Last edited by: DP on Mon 15 Apr 13 at 09:09
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I have a colleague in France had the 2.2 diesel Espace of the same generation as this one.
She also decided to get shut after yet another garage bill...and was astonished to have it sold (for good money, I'm told) the same weekend she put it up on the local equivalent of Buy and Sell.
Mind you, she then replaced it with a Grand Scenic with the 1.5 dCi that seems to like eating EGR valves...
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>> Ere!! .. I wonder what tovarish Alanović is going to say when he sees this
>> thread.
>>
>> :o)
Not much frankly, Tovarishch Sobaka. That Espace is not particularly closely related to my Laguna. Which still hasn't broken down after almost 2 weeks. ;-)
Last edited by: Alanović on Mon 15 Apr 13 at 10:08
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I'm currently trying to sell my 2003 1.6 Megane with absolutely no luck. I really want to get rid of the ruddy thing before the next MoT is due, and make it Somebody Else's Problem.
This Renault is the only car I have owned that I wish I had never set eyes on, never mind bought.
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At the risk of the Bogeymen coming to get their spanners out I have had very few issues with my Master van. 02 bought new and now on 125k ish. Is there a huge difference between their cars and vans?
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>>Is there a huge difference between their cars and vans?<<
I dont know if it is huge but given that vans are bought for running costs and the ability to take punishment, I would expect that they are not in especially stretched in terms of engineering. Not many companies would invest in a van that has a reputation for being off the road alot, so unreliability is bad for business.
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>> I have had very few issues with my Master van. 02
Market traders round here love 'em (and their Vauxhall equivalents) for the greater cubic volume than Transits and lower running costs than Sprinters. They don't spend a lot on keeping the bodywork tidy so I suspect they don't spend much on mechanical repairs either.
Last edited by: Dave_TiD on Tue 16 Apr 13 at 10:56
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Yes, my bodywork is tatty, but so is the van. However mechanically it has always had the best and I hope to keep it for several more years yet.
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My friend of mine bought a Renault Clio 1.2 at three years old and about 40k on the clock. She paid £3500 for it of a friend.
She had it for five years and abused it, she missed services on it, oil changes were done about every 25k and only major work it has had is a new cam belt. She even managed to roll the car over with no damage caused!.
Anyway when she finally got banned from driving under the top up system she sold the car to her sister. He sister is now driving it trouble free at 130,000 miles, although the clutch is now shot.
Not all Renaults are bad!
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The BBA Reman forums (mostly professional mechanics and garage owners) have some very interesting opinions on Renault cars and vans. Apparently, you can have two identical models of the same year with completely different components, fuel system layouts, and even wiring colours.
Last edited by: DP on Thu 18 Apr 13 at 12:15
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>>very interesting opinions on Renault cars and vans.
That's putting it kindly.
My experience of them was pita from start to finish. As you say completely random parts spec - which means that you could end up with a ramp tied up for hours when the parts delivered don't fit.
Other fun includes engines with no timing marks - flywheels which can fit on the crank in any position, but the engine will only run when you get the right one as the reluctor teeth are on the periphery of the wheel, so, if the engine had been taken apart by someone who didn't mark the relationship between the two, you had to refit by trial and error - I spent days getting one sorted after the mechanic who took the engine apart went off sick.
Complete and utter carp - fit only for my enemies.
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>> At the risk of the Bogeymen coming to get their spanners out I have had
>> very few issues with my Master van. 02 bought new and now on 125k ish.
>> Is there a huge difference between their cars and vans?
Vauxhall build the vans for them in Luton.
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In 02 mine came from France.
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I forwarded the e-bay link to an engineer friend who retired from the old company when I did; I hadn't realised that he once owned a Renault, and he returned this tale of woe...........
I once had a Renault Laguna company car which was my first and definitely my last Renault.
I should have known better, because I'm old enough to remember the Renault Dauphine, which I've just seen described as "the most ineffective piece of French engineering since the Maginot Line". This, like the critically acclaimed, iconic, best-selling, Caravelle, was around in the fifties.
The Laguna had electric adjustment on the driver's seat and different positions could be memorized. This was quite useful because when the car came back from being serviced by a gorilla, I just had to press a button to get the seat into my driving position. I also programmed an "after lunch, listening to the Archers mode" with the seat-back down.
One day I was returning from Kent on the M2 when the seat started moving erratically without any input from me. It went forward pushing me into the wheel, it went backwards and the seat back went down then up, and so it went on. I made the mistake of reaching down on the right to try to find the adjuster buttons. As I did so, the seat moved and trapped my hand between the seat and the door. So I was in deep merde, driving one-handed, leaning to the right, with no back support. I contemplated letting go of the wheel and opening the door with my left hand but decided that this was a tad risky. I also thought of the hard shoulder but luckily Farthing Corner services came into view and I juddered up the off-slip in top gear and came to a stop.
There was nothing down the side that could have interfered with the control buttons so I switched off and went for a cup of tea. When I switched back on, the seat resumed the correct position. When I reported this potentially dangerous incident to the Renault main dealer in Bury they allegedly ran some checks and found nothing wrong. I got the distinct impression that they thought that I had invented the whole thing. Nothing like it ever happened again but I never again felt entirely comfortable in the driving seat.
I frequently had spurious warning lights flashing and I very soon realized that this was always in wet weather or after I had used the windscreen washers. It seemed pretty obvious to me that water was finding its way into somewhere it didn't ought to be. Every time I reported this the dealer found nothing wrong. I think that by then I had been labelled a "troublemaker".
The other memorable incident happened late one bank holiday returning from the Suffolk coast with the family on board. Basically there was a lot of clattering up front, lots of lights came on briefly and the engine stopped. I found that the alternator drive belt and pulley were gone. The alternator shaft had fractured.I called the specified number and was told that it could be some time because it was a bank holiday and they were a bit busy.
An hour or two later, the local village blacksmith turned up in a clapped out Transit. He decided that it was a "rum ole do" but he offered one possible temporary "get you home" solution. He went off and some time later returned with an assortment of pulley wheels and belts, probably of Claas or Massey Ferguson origin. He also brought with him a mobile welder. Believe it or not, he managed to weld a pulley onto the stub of the alternator shaft without frying the alternator or the rest of the electrics and yes, we did get home.
I was very happy when I was able to return the Laguna, complete with a boot full of bits that had fallen off it. It's funny how these little things influence future choices. C'est la vie.
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>>The Laguna had electric adjustment on the driver's seat and different positions could be memorized.
>>This was quite useful because when the car came back from being serviced by a gorilla, I just had to press a button to get the seat into my driving position.
>> I also programmed an "after lunch, listening to the Archers mode" with the seat-back down.
>>
This reminds me of an old warning.
"Never try the memory button while on the move in a just collected hire car.
For the very same reason that the previous driver may have needed the seat back horizontal in order to get the best performance during the tenure :-)
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Mrs alfalfa ran a Renault 4 for seven years with no breakdowns or failure to start. Probably the most practical car we have owned and quite fun to drive. I am sure the reliability was helped by the minimal electric system; the longevity wasn't helped by the propensity to rust every where but the doors.
Still, it's sad to see how far Renault have fallen as they did once produce desirable and reasonably reliable cars.
alfalfa
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Groan. Are you lot still banging on about this? Renault sorted their quality problem by 2005.
2000-2005 are cars to avoid, but outside of those years they're no better or worse than other makes.
>> Still, it's sad to see how far Renault have fallen as they did once produce
>> desirable and reasonably reliable cars.
Fell, and recovered. It's pretty safe to go back in the water now. Bad reputations do tend to stick in the face of the facts, don't they? Which is unfortunate.
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>>Renault sorted their quality problem by 2005.<<
"Where do I start - Car is 6 weeks old and has been in garage for 3 weeks in total. Faulty fuses at courtesy light, air box resonator renewal, faulty rain sensor, damaged glovebox, loose mirror casing and now to top it all a new wiring loom is required - not bad going for a 6 week old car. Poor build quality overall"
Taken from a review of a 2009 dci Megane.
A 6 week old car that needs a new wiring loom - your concept of quality is extremely funny, but you are talking rubbish.
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Do you understand the difference between anecdote and evidence?
From an internets review of a Daihatsu Sirion:
"I originally purchased a 1.3 SE Sirion in 2005. Changed it for a 1.5SX in 2008, lots more grunt when loaded up. A few built quality issues though, with poor reverse sensors,trim falling off, exhaust vibration in CAT under load, now the stabiliser linkarm joints have worn out (parts on B/O). 15,000 mls on the clock now"
Not great for a car with only 15,000 on the clock. My conclusion? Avoid all Daihatsus.
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True, but even given the fact that Renault have sold more cars. I'd bet there would be a far greater number of tales of woe with Renaults. I can sadly back that up with my own tales.
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A thought occurs to me y'know. Here's the motion in short, most people who are not "into" cars are blissfully unaware of there being many major problems with them.
When I stop to think about it, of the 40 odd cars I've owned or had long term use of, many of which have been required to get me and my stuff out to work and up to 40,000 miles a year for a lifetime of hacking about, only two of them could be fairly criticised for being noticeably or serially unreliable.
The rest, apart from a very occasional glitch here and there have pretty much done what they were intended to do.
Taken over nigh on 1.5 million miles of driving to have had only two cars which have badly let me down doesn't seem too unlucky really, although at the time it was of course very annoying.
I'd like to propose that actually, cars are by and large pretty good nowadays. Their Achilles heel of course is that in return they are so technically advanced in order to achieve that reliability that when they do go wrong it now tends to be complex and expensive and by default more visible.
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Hump hits the nail on the head in my view.
The average Renault dealer is unlikely to ever see a BIG Renault. And as far as electrical problems, many dealers are not parts of chains so they have limited technical expertise. And electrical technical skills are often best rewarded by being self employed.
Add the fact that Renault have quality glitches... and you have a mix designed to go wrong big style
After all, look at the posts by people with car problems on HJ.. see Ford TDCI threads etc..
The man hours needed to design and test a car before launch are probably straining Renault's resources to the limit... see also Peugeot.
Big model ranges, reputation for poor quality electrics..
Killed BL in the long term.
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>>the stabiliser linkarm joints have worn out (parts on B/O). <<
My wifes car had them replaced too with a modified part. They do not wear out but can clonk over certain surfaces, I was told it was due to the angle they sit at and a slight amount of wear creates the problem. Of course it is no unique to Daihatsu - my mums Yaris did it, as did my old Daewoo Nubira, and a customer of mine has a Corolla with the same problem and I think my Hyundai Sonata suffered too.
All the reversing sensors fitted to Daihatsu are useless, I think they are connected to the spirit world because they see things which are not there :-)
Of course if it is a choice between a suspension part or a wiring loom, I think I would take the former but each to their own.
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>> Of course if it is a choice between a suspension part or a wiring loom,
>> I think I would take the former but each to their own.
Stop being so ridiculous. It's almost as if you're trolling.
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Well if you were not so in love with all things European it wouldnt be worth it, but you cant help yourself, Renault can do no wrong, I get it, so buy one and enjoy, I hear there is a lovely Espace going cheap, just your kind of motor :-)
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What tedious and puerile drivel. I'm out.
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Pmsl.
Anyone who can get their knickers in a knot over tongue-in-cheek ribbing about a car brand has some issues - I take the many digs about the cars I buy in good humour even when they attempt to get very personal, so to say that your reaction is silly is being polite, lighten up and stop being so senstive, it is just daft to react that way over a car.
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Look on the bright side, Alonivic - if more people copped on to the potential of cars like your Goona, they wouldn't be bargains any more :-)
Better they continue paying over the odds for the precieved quality (I've always wondered how that differs from 'actual' quality!) of VWs etc. Buying the market underdog - Legacy vs. V70, Forester vs. CRV, Scenics vs. Zafira, Panda/Punto vs. Polo - has served me well so far.
Besides, France is full of Renaults, and I don't see the autoroutes lined with broken down ones every summer. But the home market doesn't buy toy-laden models, rather standard spec diesel manuals...just like yours. So relax and enjoy it.
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Aye, Gromit. Happen you're right. All good sense.
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We've just had my mother in law have to stay with us for an extra week because my brother in law's 2007 renault has gone kaput.
He claims its a co-incidence, and that its normally reliable!!!!!!!!!!!
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Funnily enough, just seen an immaculate, concours almost, 1986 "D" plated Renault 25 GTS. Looked and sounded like new. reminded me of how Renault, from time to time, did produce some good desirable good looking cars.
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Woof woof. I'd love one of them . Although the earlier Renault 20/30 held more appeal to me.
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Tee hee... I liked the 30 as well. But the 25 was the one used by the Mitterrand government when the French state finally went off Citroen. Must be better than the 30. It looks more 'throwaway' in the modern manner, but I doubt if it is any flimsier in real life. They must nearly all be dead by now.
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>> Must be better
>> than the 30.
Must be. But there's something about the 30.
I begged and pleaded with my Dad to buy a black one which was on a dealer's lot half a mile from home when he wanted to change his Ford Zodiac Executive, after it had been in an accident. This must have been about 1980/81, I suppose.
He bought a beige Triumph 2000 instead. Bah. I don't think he liked it very much though, I seem to remember him saying he'd not buy another British car again, and fancied the look of a green Opel Ascona a work colleague had just bought. Died in '83 and Mum couldn't handle the 2000. She went and bought a brand new (A reg, prefix, how fancy) Mitsubishi Colt. First "foreign" car we'd ever had (Dad considered all Fords to be British - actually, I don't know where the Zodiac Executive was built, thinking about it).
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>>>But there's something about the 30. I begged and pleaded with my Dad to buy a black one..
Mrs F ran a mint black 30TS for a while around 1980. Lovely soft grey/blue cloth interior, elec sunroof etc. A very cosseting car. Fuel was a bit heavy with that 2.7l V6.
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>> Fuel was a bit heavy with
>> that 2.7l V6.
No doubt - but my Dad was used to the 3.0V6 in the Zodiac.......
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>> >>>But there's something about the 30. I begged and pleaded with my Dad to buy
>> a black one..
>>
>> Mrs F ran a mint black 30TS for a while around 1980. Lovely soft grey/blue
>> cloth interior, elec sunroof etc. A very cosseting car. Fuel was a bit heavy with
>> that 2.7l V6.
My friends dad used to lend us his Pug 604 luxobarge with that 2.7l v6 and a slushbox auto. Fuel consumption was extravagant to say the least, but it was a terrifically wafty car for long distances, and terrific seats.
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>> My friends dad used to lend us his Pug 604 luxobarge with that 2.7l v6
>> and a slushbox auto. Fuel consumption was extravagant to say the least, but it was
>> a terrifically wafty car for long distances, and terrific seats.
>>
When at school my French exchange was with a family of butchers in Beaune. They lived above the shop but had a weekend cottage, and we used to get there in either a 2CV or a Peugeot 604 that Madame would belt across the dead straight country roads at improbable speeds. True wafting!
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>> >> I don't know where the Zodiac Executive
>> was built, thinking about it).
IIRC the Zephyr/Zodiac range were pure Dagenham. Ditto early Granada models. My father had two, V6 3.0 GXL models. First was L reg and second P. One of them gave alternator trouble on a trip to France but the local Ford dealer, used to Cologne's products, had never seen anything like it. Certainly the foreign versions lacked Smiths/Lucas electrics and indeed I think had different engines altogether
Le Mecanicienne fettled it enough to see us home though.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 17 Apr 13 at 16:16
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Alanovic mentions a V6 so his dad's Executive must have been the one with a vast flat bonnet and short tail concealing a dodgy swing-axle back end. That bonnet was big enough to hide three V6 engines. I went in one once, and the thing was very quiet and went well in the hands of the flash villain mechanic driving it.
Most of the Zodiacs were straight sixes of course. They were better I think, if you were in the market for a company executive's luxobarge. Petrol was free in those days almost.
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Ah. Maybe it wasn't a V6. Definately a 6 though, and certainly 3.0. Anyone know? It was badged "Ford Zodiac Executive" and had a bonnet mascot, similar to a Merc mascot, but oblong with a vertical/horizontal cross through it.
EDIT: Dad's was identical to the black one in the top line of photos in this link:
tinyurl.com/d92n7eb
EDIT again: Wikipedia says V6 in the MkIV Executive. Perhaps I was right.
Last edited by: Alanović on Wed 17 Apr 13 at 16:28
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When my old man was on strike in the post office (during Brompies glorious left wing super 1970s - he went out because of violent picketing and assaults on "scabs and blacklegs") he did some mini cabbing use the firms V6 MkIV Exec. He called it the beast because of its really light back end. Went out with him on some of his courier package runs.
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>> Ah. Maybe it wasn't a V6. Definately a 6 though, and certainly 3.0. Anyone know?
>> It was badged "Ford Zodiac Executive" and had a bonnet mascot, similar to a Merc
>> mascot, but oblong with a vertical/horizontal cross through it.
Yes definately a V6, i had an Executive for several years, put a strong towbar on it and became my towcar for banger racing, also did a bit of off the radar long distance private hire with it.
That rear suspension which found its way onto Granada was a towers dream, would cruise all day at 75mph with a Cambridge/Corsair/Rover 90 on the trailer without a care in the world, never heard of a stabilizer bar then either.
Curiously it kept the McPherson strut front suspension from the Mk 3 Zodiac, an Executive of which i also had, very rare.
Rear discs with swinging calipers as fitted (inboard no probs) to Rover P6's, fitted outboard to Zodiac IV and very troublesome due to water/salt ingress.
Actually its a good job the P6's rear discs were trouble free, nightmare to work on right next to the rear diff.
Anyway, Zodiac was fast for its day but very comfortable too, huge bucket seats that reclined to make a superb place to woo a friendly girl..;)
Tyre sizes unheard off now, i had an early one D plate so '66? on 185 x 13, when faclifted they went up to 185 x 14.
One anecdote, the radiator drain plug fitting fell off completely one day going down the A23 to Brighton, the rad was capless car has seperate header tank.
Rad was identical fitments upside down, so i bought some fibre glass and resin mix from an accessory shop (P40 Isopon?) did the repair and fitted the rad back upside down, it stayed like that for the rest of its time with me.
Bought that car £80 and sold it for £100.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Thu 18 Apr 13 at 12:54
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>..pure Dagenham. Ditto early Granada models. My father had two, V6 3.0 GXL models.
I had a MkI 3.0 GXL (reg. SS 746) in SW Africa which I'm pretty sure was assembled in Port Elizabeth. They were well known for regular failure of the rubber 'doughnut' coupling the prop to the diff. Easy but awkward fix if you didn't have a pit or lift.
A friend had a Perana Ghia coupe which was a lovely blue-collar long distance cruiser (if you planned your fuel stops).
Really nice motors in their day.
Last edited by: Kevin on Wed 17 Apr 13 at 21:24
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This subject has come up many times before.
One can always use selective quoting, particularly on the internet, to back up any position one wishes to take. If FoR wanted to give a balanced view then out of the nine reviews on Parkers he could equally have pointed to three others that gave the Megane MK3 five stars; or another three that gave four stars. Out of the three poorest reviews, one was a hire car that the driver just didn’t get on with – doesn’t count in my opinion.
On Autotrader, for the Megane MK3, for reliability 16 reviews out of 19 gave the maximum five stars. Two reviews four stars and one review three stars. Most manufacturers would be very pleased with that sort of result.
The fact is that Renaults from about 2004/5 are in a different league in terms of quality and reliability, there will always be the odd duff one but you can get that with any make. Evidence is all there from ADAC.
Renault have for many years excelled at producing cars which are comfortable, practical, safe, economical and with high levels of engine and chassis refinement. Apart from the early incarnation of the 1.9 F9Q engine, their diesel engines are about the best you will find in a mass-market car, with almost petrol-like levels of NVH. A Renault ticks many desirable boxes. Their resistance to corrosion is very good, along with PSA products. I see far more rusty old VWs than old Renaults and yet in their day the former were always praised for their build quality compared to the latter. I guess to a typical journalist ‘build quality’ is whether the dash controls are made of soft plastic or some such nonsense.
Where Renault has not always met expectations has been in quality and reliability, particularly in the 2000 to 2004 (approx) period. Renault themselves have come fairly close to admitting that, as far as any corporate organisation does that sort of thing. There remains some debate at what point the improvements began, certainly the introduction of the Modus signalled a clear change of direction for the company.
It was mainly the early MK2 versions of the Megane, Scenic and Laguna that were released before they were fully cooked, the Espace has also struggled but the Clio has always done quite well in the satisfaction surveys. Maybe this is because being cheaper cars they didn’t have as much technology on them. From the launch of the Modus onwards, every new model and revamped previous model was hugely improved in both build quality and reliability. The ratings in various surveys including ADAC provided evidence that quality was on the up again – the Megane MK3 achievements are particularly impressive.
Most pre-2000 Renaults will have been scrapped by now. Many from the 2000-2004/5 period will be a bit dog-eared and best avoided. Stick to 2004/5 onwards and buy as new as possible even if that means slightly higher mileage.
The quality of Renault's vehicles is now among the best in the industry. In fact, the number of warranty-related incidents with Renault vehicles after one year on the road fell by 77% between 2003 and 2011. (figures from Renault UK)
Interesting article from autoclubnews.com/automobile-prizes-renaults-reliability_16_13610
“In May 2012 the leading industry report Pannenstatistik of ADAC ranked Twingo and Megane among the best from the last 4 years. The “Reliability Top 100” ranking of the magazine Automobile confirmed this trend. Twingo was again awarded with the highest prize for its very high level of reliability. Megane and Megane Coupe were also ranked first in their categories. Scenic, Grand Scenic, Laguna and Laguna Coupe were ranked in second place in their categories.
Reliability has become an asset for Renault and now all models are climbing to the top of the quality rankings of independent researchers, customer surveys and media reviews in many countries.”
Good reputations are easy to lose and much harder to gain. It seems Renault have a tough job on their hands.
Strange thing is, if Renaults are so unreliable then why are Dacias, which are based on Renault technology, flying out of the showroom?
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>>Strange thing is, if Renaults are so unreliable then why are Dacias, which are based on Renault technology, flying out of the showroom?
Because Aldo Gucci got it the wrong way round when he said,
"Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten."
What he should have said, with reference to 21st century Britain anyway is...
"Price is remembered long after the quality is forgotten."
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>>Strange thing is, if Renaults are so unreliable then why are Dacias, which are based on Renault technology, flying out of the showroom?<<
Because it is old Renault tech, well tested, nor are the cars loaded with complex electrical gizmos to go wrong - I remember reading some Renault guy saying that the tyre pressure sensors were never properly tested on the Laguna etc.
>>In fact, the number of warranty-related incidents with Renault vehicles after one year on the road fell by 77% between 2003 and 2011 <<
Why would a car need warranty work in the first year anyway, that is setting the bar rather low. When the car is 5 plus years old lets see how well they work then, any fool can get through the first year without warranty work.
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>> Because it is old Renault tech, well tested, nor are the cars loaded with complex
>> electrical gizmos to go wrong -
And priced sensibly enough that if it dies at 7 years and scrap it will still be cheaper than paying the high price of mainstream, which are increasingly laden with guff that many of us strive to avoid if possible.
Prime example being the credit card key on Renaults, when the central locking packs up or the key buttons break you've had it unless you want to stump up £hundreds, but an old fashioned car with central locking and a real key/keyholes you simply take the cnetral fuse out and revert to manual locking.
Huge radio all linked to the cars computer, no thanks, i'm quite happy to stick a £50 Sony in thats actually better than the OE in most. Automatic radio muting bluetooth? i'm not that gaga that i can't turn the radio down and press the button on me headset to speak.
I'm going to be watching the Dacia Duster with interest, seeing a few out and about now.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Thu 18 Apr 13 at 21:57
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>>I'm going to be watching the Dacia Duster with interest, seeing a few out and about now.<<
I am too, I saw one the other day and it is quite attractive to look at. There is a dealer not far from you isnt there?
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There is a dealer not far from you isnt there?
>>
Yes Renault dealer just round the corner but i wouldn't go there if it was the last place on earth.
I delivered some vehicles there several years ago and was sworn at foully by the bloke checking them in after he eventually turned up, he didn't like it cos i didn't leave the keys in unattended vehicles (sackable offence apart from sheer stupidity) whilst everyone was looking for him, this verbal abuse was witnessed by a senior sales bod too who seemed to enjoy it.
I was taken aback shocked almost as i tend to treat all others with respect, and bitterly regret not reloading the vehicles and taking them to our local depot compound.
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People's insane bigotry about makes or models of car and countries of origin has ensured a succession of interesting, unusual, strangely reliable and user-friendly - quite often anyway, above all affordable jalopies throughout my motoring life.
Go for it bigots! Thank you Jasper Carrott! You've saved me a fortune.
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>> People's insane bigotry about makes or models of car and countries of origin has ensured
>> a succession of interesting, unusual, strangely reliable and user-friendly - quite often anyway, above all
>> affordable jalopies throughout my motoring life.
>>
>> Go for it bigots! Thank you Jasper Carrott! You've saved me a fortune.
>>
Strangely reliable?
What like a Chrysler PT Cruiser say?
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>>What like a Chrysler PT Cruiser say?
Not to mention a (Ahem!) Skoda Estelle.
:o}
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>>I'm going to be watching the Dacia Duster with interest, seeing a few out and about now.
= = = > www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/dacia/duster-2012/?section=owners-reviews
^_^
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Yes and one owner says... "you might wonder if you'd have been better off with a second hand Yeti".
Now let me think... new Duster or 3yr old Yeti with 25k recorded... no don't need any longer to choose...
2.bp.blogspot.com/-ig0rYE261u8/Tm5LZ9bwEHI/AAAAAAAAB8w/G_i8hGnFDYU/s1600/yeti.jpg
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 19 Apr 13 at 09:33
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@Xileno - great post. Happily, though, they're not listening, which has enabled me to buy an excellent 2008 (58) reg Laguna Sports Tourer for peanuts.
Mrs A may be getting a recent Megane soon, also.
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I defended mine for ages. Until it started falling apart (late 2004 car)
According to Renault, 3 years and 60,000 miles is considered an acceptable life for a vehicle. I still have the e-mail. :-(
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>>I defended mine for ages <<
Can I ask why?
>>According to Renault, 3 years and 60,000 miles is considered an acceptable life for a vehicle. I still have the e-mail. :-( <<
Prob why when I buy cars that are 7-10 years old I never look at Renault. Would love to read the transcript of the email, that seems a very odd attitude and a short expected lifespan - I would have thought 15 years minimum with attentive servicing, anything less is pathetic in the modern age.
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>> >>I defended mine for ages <<
>>
>> Can I ask why?
Probably the things that attracted DP to the car in the first place.
I don't understand the high cost of parts considering they are not high quality like Subaru for example.
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>> >>I defended mine for ages <<
>>
>> Can I ask why?
>>
Because for the first 10 months we had it, it barely put a foot wrong. It was comfortable, well equipped, and had what is still the quietest, smoothest and most "petrol-like" four cylinder diesel engine I've experienced. It was a lovely car. All the naysayers reckoned it would break and fall apart, and I begged to differ. I was wrong, they were right.
>> Prob why when I buy cars that are 7-10 years old I never look at
>> Renault. Would love to read the transcript of the email, that seems a very odd
>> attitude and a short expected lifespan - I would have thought 15 years minimum with
>> attentive servicing, anything less is pathetic in the modern age.
Renault UK paid for an electric window regulator failure a couple of weeks out of warranty. This was a known issue at the time, having been covered on Watchdog in some detail. However, despite a full Renault history, they didn't want to know about the £3,000 odd worth of other failures that occurred between 37 months of age, and 44 months when I finally lost patience after total clutch hydraulic failure and a £900 bill to repair it.
During protracted, and ultimately fruitless negotiation with Renault, I asked if it was reasonable to expect a car to last more beyond 3yr/60,000 mile warranty period. I was told that "it was reasonable to expect components to fail on older vehicles" and that what I was reporting could be considered within expectations. For clarification, the issues at this time included:
Clutch slave cylinder hydraulic failure - breakdown and recovery needed - £900 to fix.
Intermittent PAS failure - quoted £1300 to fix
Intermittent blower motor failure - known fault with resistor wiring - dash out job at £300.
Intermittent electronic dash failure - quoted £400 to fix. Note this too appeared on Watchdog some years later and Renault started coughing up in full for replacements which as far as I know they are still doing to this day. At this time they "weren't aware of any problems with this unit", which was the story I got with almost everything.
So what I had was a Trigger's Broom scenario - yes, I could have made my Renault last a long time, but it would have meant a steady and ongoing replacement of expensive components, and a nagging doubt about reliability that frankly I would only expect on a £250 small ads banger. And let's be clear, we were talking about a gently driven 56,000 mile family car with a full main dealer history and which was not yet 4 yrs old.
At some point during this discussion, my resolve cracked and I realised the company has no faith in its products, no respect for its customers, and it denies all knowledge of problems which 5 seconds with Google shows were known, documented design faults. I forked out for a spanking new clutch kit, and had it fitted, drove the car home, parked it on the drive, and the next time it moved was when someone came to test drive it a few days later. That was in 2008. Bought a 2 yr older Golf with the cash, which we've still got and which has more engineering integrity in its wheel nuts than the Renault contained in its entire structure.
Even if Renault have turned a corner in quality, they are in my experience an awful company who think four figure bills on family cars are to be expected and are just a fact of life. No company with any pride would allow a customer with a just-out-of-warranty example of their products with a list of expensive faults to feel like they were on their own, and that their expectations of a product working reliably beyond its third year were unreasonable.
Yes, Renaults are nice cars. Yes they are comfy, and the diesels are brilliant. Yes, they have lots of nice toys to play with. Yes, they have a level of practicality that borders on genius. But they are not good cars, and they are neither well supported, or well regarded by people who have to work on them.
Perhaps the key point is that, with such a huge choice of manufacturers making such a wide range of very good cars, what's the point in taking the risk with this lot?
Last edited by: DP on Fri 19 Apr 13 at 13:27
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I can see why you feel as you do DP, that is quite the saga. I clean a 2007 Scenic auto and there are usually warning lights on when I move it about, there is just an air of fragility about the things, like the boot button which doesnt work - very annoying!
The one I clean only has 40k on the clock but the seats are coming apart at the seams yet I also clean a 2004 Mitsubishi Spacewagon with 90k on the clock and the interior is as robust as the day it was new ( I know, I cleaned it just after it was bought and I do to this day ).
I think the attitude of the dealer and indeed the manufacturer have a great influence on how you feel about the car - if you have a bad car but it feels like everyone is sorry for the trouble it eases the pain somewhat but if they seem to have the 'well what do you expect?' attitude it can really drag you down. Even worse when they appear to deny things which are well known.
I like driving Renaults, I like driving Alfas too, but I would never own one because I know people who do and they tell me all about it. Perhaps with me though I am buying older cars so build integrity and engineering are more highly tested as a car ages and my expectations for reliable service are what most people expect from a new car. I dont apologise for that though, I dont have time to mess about fixing cars all day, priority one is that it starts and all expenditure is predictable within reason ( brakes, tyres etc ).
Last edited by: FoR on Fri 19 Apr 13 at 14:15
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>>I also clean a 2004 Mitsubishi Spacewagon with 90k on the clock and the interior is as robust as the day it was new
Yep, I've still got the ole Lancer, might have to keep it for ever and a day, looked at soooo many cars too, and 4x4's.
Ya know, I'm an incy wincy teeny weeny bit apprehensive about getting rid of a 100% reliable old jalopy ,
and regretting it.
:}
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>> Yep, I've still got the ole Lancer, might have to keep it for ever and
>> a day, looked at soooo many cars too, and 4x4's.
>>
>> Ya know, I'm an incy wincy teeny weeny bit apprehensive about getting rid of a
>> 100% reliable old jalopy ,
>> and regretting it.
I feel the same. I've looked at a Skoda Octavia VRS mk1 and a Golf TDi 130, and thinking about going back to an Audi estate but then I remember the understeer and niggles and see the over valued rubbish on Autotrader. I get back into my Avensis and just know that the thing is going to work and cost peanuts to run. Keep looking Dog.
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>>Keep looking Dog.
Better the devil you know corax ;)
I even looked at convertibles, but up here on the moor we get like *RAIN* so I've knocked that idea on the bonce.
Also, most of the arf-decent jamjars are 200+ miles away from here, which isn't a good idea if there are any 'issues' with the car.
So, at the end of the day, the Avensis & Lancer are damn good cars really, although that's never been reason enough before to not change ones car :)
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>> Better the devil you know corax ;)
>> So, at the end of the day, the Avensis & Lancer are damn good cars
See now there's a bit of a theme of like minded souls developing here.
Our leading spokesperson seems to be FoR with messrs Dog Corax Cliff Bathtub and meself and several others no doubt starting to lean this way, even Z for all his bluster is quite happy now its his money and not a company car sticking with something that does what it says on the tin and doesn't give him expensive grief.
Changing the car seems a great idea, then you realise that unless you stay in a certain year or manufacturer band or go nearly new and stay under warranty that you're going to end up with something stuffed to the gills with electronic gaarbage that you'll seldom if ever use and is sure to go expensively wrong at some point between end of warranty and 8 years.
A sort of underground almost Luddite movement developing here?
:-)
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>>Our leading spokesperson seems to be FoR <<
Talk about sticking my head on a pole, I am already in trouble with mother :-)
I wouldnt trust me to speak on anything, I vote for you due to your skills with a spanner and the far higher level of respect you garner, I am better playing the useful idiot :-)
You make a good point though, cars have become stupidly complex which I find everytime a customer hands me the key and I have to work out how to make the spaceship take off, which irritates me no end, not to mention trying to work out where the OFF button is for the stereo which seems to now be designed as a game of hide and seek.
It is true, I do like my cars simple and sturdy and I have zero desire to own something with lots of 'toys'. I like comfort and I like space, but gadgetry leaves me fairly cold unless it is genuinely useful so I make an exception for cruise control and heated seats, but aside from that I dont ask for much except boringly reliable service.
>>A sort of underground almost Luddite movement developing here?<<
I think to qualify you must not have a mobile that takes pictures or knows what the internet is - mine doesnt and I rather like that about it.
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>> I think to qualify you must not have a mobile that takes pictures or knows
>> what the internet is - mine doesnt and I rather like that about it.
Well mine apparently takes pics but i haven't tried yet, but its tough waterprooof and dustproof and the battery last about 10 days between charges whilst used several times every day, will last a month on standby....internet?, i wouldn't know how or if its capable.
I drop into my mothers Co.Clare lilt and do a fair impression of Father Jack when i say ''i love moi b'brick'' when i refer to me ungainly phone.
So i've got the ageing Landcruiser of phones, does that qualify..;)
''your skills with a spanner'' who were you referring to FoR, i was a kerbside cowboy, a bodger, a grease monkey...nothings changed.
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>> Our leading spokesperson seems to be FoR with messrs Dog Corax Cliff Bathtub and meself
>> and several others no doubt starting to lean this way, even Z for all his
>> bluster is quite happy now its his money and not a company car sticking with
>> something that does what it says on the tin and doesn't give him expensive grief.
Got to to a service on it soon. Jeez that 50 quid down the pan all in. . Blinkin japanese carp.
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Blinkin Japanese carp.
>>
:-)))
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Took my old jalopy to the pain dealer in the week, £160 for an oil change, it is good oil though :-)
Would have carried out the service myself, but I wanted the book stamped for when I sell it.
Expensive items those stamps.
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Ruddy hell dog, its really not worth it, I have a file of bills for all parts bought and put odo readings on them. Its such an easy job to service the Lancer as well. Mines only been to the dealer for the cam belt, and that wasn't much dearer than your regular service!
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>>Ruddy hell dog, its really not worth it
They changed the oil and pollen filter for that price too ya know :}
I haven't been to this/that particular garage before goo.gl/maps/QHF6n as they have only just taken on the Mitsubishi franchise, good service though AND the use of a Peugeot iOn to go kerb crawling around Falmouth in.
Thing is, my Lancer has got 'fool' main dealer service history form new, so I want to keep it that way and it's only money.
Oh and (tell the sheikh) they even measured the exact thickness of my brake pads - 4mm on the rears :)
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>> Took my old jalopy to the pain dealer in the week, £160 for an oil
>> change, it is good oil though :-)
Think i prefer Z's budget..;)
I wonder if keeping receipts for parts and signing the service book yourself would be as cost effective over the years, would £500 extra on main dealer servicing reflect in £500 extra for the car over and above what Z would get for his well but home serviced car i wonder?
No brainer on a nearly new or any age exotic, not so sure about normal stuff well out of warranty.
As a buyer i'd be happier (i think) speaking face to face with a reasonable home mechanic and seeing his receipts whilst discussing the finer points of the servicing he's done over a cup of tea, discussing oil brake friction or tyre choice for example..might convince me of a better prospect than a dealer stamp.
Difficult one, as you never know for sure when and where you will sell on.
edit...seems Z has this tack planned well enough anyway.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Fri 19 Apr 13 at 22:14
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We caught the tail end of some property programme the other night. It appeared the sellers had spent in the order of ten grand putting in new furniture, painting and so forth in order to market it. They seemed a bit crestfallen to be told that they wouldn't get any more money for the house, it was just a bit more likely to sell a bit quicker. In fact they didn't, during the programme, sell it anyway.
Seems to me servicing a car out of warranty at huge expense is analogous.
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>>Think i prefer Z's budget..;)
I'm looking at paying up to £8000 for a replacement vehicle gord, and that means (for me) going to a dealer - preferably a main dealer and, I'm looking for a one owner low mileage jobbie with all the stamps and, my way of thinking is that my one previous owner / 40,000 mile jalopy in excellent condition + all the stamps must be worth a few bags of sand to them , Shirley.
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>>, my way of thinking
>> is that my one previous owner / 40,000 mile jalopy in excellent condition + all
>> the stamps must be worth a few bags of sand to them , Shirley.
You'd think so, but my experience is -
Dealer asks "What yer got?"
Customer "A blah, blah dee blah"
Dealer sucks teeth and reaches for the little book or stares intently at computer screen trying to look as apologetic as possible.
"Best we can do is blah dee blah for one of them, I reckon that's the best price you'll get, yeah yeah I can see it's in good condition and it's a credit to you, I've factored that into the (disappointing) price. I'll leave you to chew it over".
I already have a rough trade in price for my car and it isn't great, but at least I won't be hugely crestfallen when I do come to change :)
I get mine serviced at my brilliant local garage, I've known the guy for years, and he's always fastidious and charges me nothing considering. I can't see that the dealer could be much better, although Toyota aren't bad for pricing.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 24 Apr 13 at 00:54
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Hehe! you make I larf corax, of course I know 'the game' having worked in the motor trade for 14 years, plus I was on 'cup of tea mate' terms with many dealers in sowf lunden.
I've also bought 'n sold over 40 cars in the last 40 years, so my way of looking at it is that the Lancer has only cost me £160 in servicing & repairs over the last 12 months and, if I do decide to trade it in I'll sleep soundly at night knowing someone else will get the benefit of my wallet-lightening episodes with the pain dealers.
Seriously though guys - what do you think of:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/peugeot/308-sw-2008/?
:-))
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>> Seriously though guys - what do you think of:
>>
>> www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/peugeot/308-sw-2008/?
Only a few reviews on what car
www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/peugeot/308-sw/readers-reviews/25733-9
And I'd take that with a pinch of salt - since when did 18" wheels add to the 'comfort factor'?
www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/peugeot/308-hatchback/readers-reviews/25733-5?resultPage=1&resultPageCount=4
Have a look at the review by Jaqueline Crawford from Malaga - last paragraph :))
I think there needs to be a bit more time to find out how much of an improvement it is over the 307, because that car was dire. And Peugeot dealers aren't the best if you need to become a frequent visitor.
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Thanks for that corax, I'll have a read through later.
I notice in April CM that the AL4 DPO auto gearbox is not very good and, even in proper working order, they don't drive very nicely :)
The main Peugeot garage in Cornwall is/are Hawkins Motors who have a very good reputation, I hear.
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>> Seriously though guys - what do you think of:
>>
>> www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/peugeot/308-sw-2008/?
308? you doing the mind altering drugs again Dog?
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Hahahaha! .. maybe I could do with some Zed!
4 good reviews here, albeit for the HDi manual:
www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/owners-reviews/peugeot/308/sw-2008/review/20120118060031/
I'll file the 308 under 'worth considering'.
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I kept every garage receipt and MOT report for my Punto and 3 Series - neither the private punter who bought the Punto nor the garage who took the 3 on trade in even looked at them!
The Punto buyer's only concerns - she repeated them often enough :-) - were that it was clean and it was black, and I'm pretty sure the Subaru dealer knew which trader he was going to move the 3 on to before I'd even parked it on his forecourt.
Within the week it was for sale in Dublin with a comment on the trader's description to the effect that it was a remarkably good example that had been obviously well cared for. But there was no stamped-up sevice book to show that because I'd always taken it to a good local indy who is good on BMs and Alfaas.
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>> I defended mine for ages. Until it started falling apart (late 2004 car)
>>
>> According to Renault, 3 years and 60,000 miles is considered an acceptable life for a
>> vehicle. I still have the e-mail. :-(
Same person must now work for DSG when they told me 12 months was the expected life for a dishwasher and it it lasted longer I was lucky.....
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>>Mrs A may be getting a recent Megane soon, also.
So you keep saying vić, does Mrs A may work for Renault by any chance.
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I get the message. I'll shut up about it now.
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...an excellent 2008 (58) reg Laguna Sports Tourer for peanuts.
So now you can afford to put that number on it that we discussed in December. It might even suit a French car better than a German one - although ideally it should be on a beige Rover 75 with the full tartan blanket and trilby hat treatment.
It begins with an R, so it'll go unnoticed round here, and the car's a natural 58 anyway, so nobody can call you a show-off. Go for it! I promise to wave when I see you.
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Was that RO58 EEF, Will? It's a local Reading plate, too.
I'm driving to Paris at the end of May, then holiday in Vendee in July. Hee hee.
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Precisely, Vić. Still available - and almost perfectly discreet round these parts.
The squeezing of the middle has squashed my trip to France this year. Perhaps I should have bought a Laguna last year instead.
}:---(
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 22 Apr 13 at 09:46
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700 nicker. Tempting, but a bit much for my stomach.
How did we come to be discussing that number? Shirley it couldn't have been spotted on the road, as it's available to purchase.
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My fault. When I bought the 58-plate LEC last year, I wondered about changing its A-for-Anglia number for an R to suit its new home. There was even one that ended in WDB, which would have amused me but otherwise gone unnoticed. The EEF combination just popped into my head, so I looked it up and there it was. I agree with you though - a joke not worth most of the price of a holiday.
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I had a "private" plate for donkey's years. For no other reason than it mildly amused me. Wouldn't have meant much to anyone else unless they were into cryptic crosswords and could hardly be accused of being a vanity plate as it made my cars look older than they were.
Eventually though, I just tired of it and sold it. Couldn't be bothered with the (admittedly low level) faff and expense of changing it between cars.
No criticism intended to those who do like them if that's their thing but it's just not something I care about any more. On reflection, I don't really think I ever much cared but it was bought for me as a Christmas present half a lifetime ago and I was sufficiently taken with it to keep it for sentimental value.
I think also, especially as you get older, you become far less concerned by how the world sees you and far more by how you see the world. Or maybe that's just me.
No strong views either way on the matter to be truthful.
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One personal plate in the family, luckily the person always buys from a garage and they do the faffing.
There's only one plate SWM wants it suits her and she would wear it with pride, i am prepared to pay a reasonable fee for it, i've seen it in the county.
AR 51 COW
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I'm sure I saw AR51 GET once. Can't remember what it was on.
Edit - Vehicle details found: AR51GET
BLACK, 2009 AUDI S5 V8 QUATTRO COUPE
Hmmmm
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Mon 22 Apr 13 at 11:10
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Further Edit - Vehicle details found: AR51COW
WHITE, 2012 AUDI Q5 S LINE TDI QUATTRO AUT ESTATE
Hmmmm again !
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>> WHITE, 2012 AUDI Q5 S LINE TDI QUATTRO AUT ESTATE
>>
Sure it was a Grand Cherokee when i saw it a few years ago, fine looking woman at the wheel.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 22 Apr 13 at 11:23
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Shows how fashions have moved on. Cherokees used to be as popular in certain circles as Discoveries and X5s; now they're about as fashionable as a rotting corpse.
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I've always thought though that the "sleeper" in the Jeep range, if that's the sort of car you want, is the diesel Patriot. It has the 2.0 VAG diesel engine in it I believe. Should be ok if it has. You'd think anyway. Might be wrong.
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>> diesel Patriot. It has the 2.0 VAG diesel engine
>> in it
As does the Dodge Journey. Was tempted to look at those recently, reasonable value proposition. But decided it was too MPV/SUVish still.
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I've been noticing newer Laguna estates since reading your thread AV and have decided I quite like them. I really want yours to be a success and disprove my prejudices. My Espace experience was truly awful but I'm prepared to accept that it ought to be considered as unrelated to the more modern models.
Sometimes I toy, not very seriously yet, but who knows, with the notion of opting out of the company car scheme and doing my own thing again but I'd still need a large comfortable load lugging machine and a car like yours would potentially tick all those boxes.
I do retain a vestige of scepticism about certain cars being intrinsically bewitched, you only have to read all the horror stories about TDCi engines for example to be possibly quite reasonably put off but when you've actually used one or two or three of them over many miles without a murmer of a problem you begin to realise that those faults are not always an inevitability.
I suspect you have made a wise choice. I do hope so anyway !
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So far so good, Humph. 700 miles of mixed urban, motorway and A road driving from the first tank of diesel. No sign of imminent implosion yet, computer says spot on 50mpg average.
Getting an aux in socket fitted tomorrow so I can listen to DAB radio from my Nokia N8.
I think someone like you, Humph, would appreciate the single-button folding system on the rear seats. Very neat and natty.
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>> I think also, especially as you get older, you become far less concerned by how
>> the world sees you and far more by how you see the world. Or maybe
>> that's just me.
No, I think you're right Humph. Although saying that, you wouldn't want the world to see you in a pair of trainers would you?
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Not a problem if I was "training" for something at the time !
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>> Aye, Gromit. Happen you're right. All good sense.
>>
'ang on! On Wednesday at 13.07, you said "drivel" and "I'm out".
What happened to make you come back? Was it the charm of your fellow posters?
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Prob tried to flounce but the car wouldnt start :-)
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Will you two leave him alone!
You thought I'd gone to work, didn't you;)
Pat
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Sorry mother, I will retire to the naughty step :-)
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Good, they'll be a few lorry drivers sent there too before the weekends out:)
Pat
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Duncan, I meant that I was not going to continue conversing with FoR on this particular topic. Then I replied to Gromit.
Do calm down, you sound like a right old woman poking your nose in.
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>> Duncan, I meant that I was not going to continue conversing with FoR on this
>> particular topic. Then I replied to Gromit.
>>
>> Do calm down, you sound like a right old woman poking your nose in.
>>
;-)
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I'd be interested in hearing what the Gastropod thinks about French cars, and why he has chosen the Fjords for at least the last 8 years?
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>>>build integrity and engineering are more highly tested as a car ages and my expectations for reliable service are what most people expect from a new car..... dont have time to mess about fixing cars all day, priority one is that it starts and all expenditure is predictable within reason...
Ahhh exactly the same way I look at cars... that's why we've been happy to own 9 Citroens, the Alfa, a Discovery and a Mondeo as our last 12 cars.... all fully meeting your requirements.
DPs tale is one that nightmares are made of though and would tent to put you off a bit... we've only ever really experienced that with one car in over 35yrs and that was soon shifted on.
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>> DPs tale is one that nightmares are made of though and would tent to put
>> you off a bit...
Indeed, its entrirely possible for a rogue car of any make to get through and cause such misery.
Its the attitude from the maker/dealers in DPs case there is no excuse for, they should have sorted his car properly or made a generous deal to replace it, their businesses deserve to perish if that is an example of how they treat customers.
It speaks volumes for the pride in and expectation of quality and reliability in their product.
Could you just imagine this thread being brought to the attention of Fujio Cho, chairman of Toyota over such treatment of one his customers? P45's all round i shouldn't wonder.
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>>all fully meeting your requirements <<
I worked for a chain that dealt in LR, they are not in any sense of the word reliable, some of the early Td5 Discoverys didnt even make it to the dealership before lunching their engines and the tales of woe that I hear from customers who spend massively more than I do on Land Rovers do not inspire confidence about one that costs £2.5k.
I have never owned an Alfa, they are nice but impractical for my needs. The GTV, even the twin spark, really pushes my buttons I have to say, but my cars have to be relevant to my practical needs so I dont have fancy motors and Alfa have a limited range.
I dont mind Citroen, my dad had 4 in the late 80's to mid 90's but I dont like the way they drive, awful sloppy gearboxes and too complex to take a punt on for me at my buying age.
I hate Mondeos, they are so middle of the road boring and I have never understood why people rave about the driving experience, it did nout for me.
I owned a Fiat, a Renault and a Citroen once. The only car that I liked so much that I sought one out again was the Charade and the only car I regret selling was the Reliant. that is the wonderful thing about cars - what you like and what works for you is very individual and I actually wouldnt buy a mainstream car just because it is mainstream - it is hard enough for me to want to keep a car, I need something different to keep my interest.
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In a similar vein, the 107,000 mile VW Transporter that I bought a year ago for weekend/leisure use has become my daily driver.
It's raised driving position bigvwindscreen and square shape makes it easy to position in London traffic, it has a lovely tight turning circle, and it's red paint makes people think it is a Royal Mail van, and so they give me a very wide berth. Grey plastic bumpers are ideal for parking too. I simply have no worries when I drive it, unlike when I used to drive more expensive cars.
It is also supremely practical - last weekend we had 6 bikes and 6 people all inside the van, which is shorter than many 'normal' cars, and it has a hose-down interior. I've sound-proofed it and upgraded the speakers, and it is now genuinely enjoyable to drive, just not in a 'normal car' sense.
I could afford a newer model, but there just is no point. Experience has taught me that the cheaper the car the less the depreciation.
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>> In a similar vein, the 107,000 mile VW Transporter that I bought a year ago
>> for weekend/leisure use has become my daily driver.
I get to drive one of them, with similar mileage. Its still sharp to drive and has a really comfortable ride. Built like BSH those things.
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>> I could afford a newer model, but there just is no point. Experience has taught
>> me that the cheaper the car the less the depreciation.
>>
Exactly.
One of my previous cars cost me... £200. yes two hundred pounds.
I ran it for 6 months, then it broke.
Weighed it in - got £150.
Fifty quid for six months motoring? Pretty unbeatable in my book...
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We have an 02 Transporter - tough, reliable and resistant to corrosion. Often thought about buying a newer one but why?
The problem with listening to generalised comments such as ‘avoid French they’re unreliable’ and similar is that potentially you can miss out on some good cars. Even a car which had a bad start can mature into a decent car. These cars can make excellent buys as people hang on to experiences and often do not accept that things change. As a result residual values can be quite attractive to the canny second-hand buyer.
It’s no different to a wise investor trying to sniff out an under-valued stock. In this case the wise car buyer needs to try and find a car that is better (or in the Laguna’s case, became better) than its widely-held reputation.
There is no other car that meets that brief better than the Laguna MK3. Renault were a bit stung by the problems with the MK2 (although they were much improved from about 2004) and there was huge determination within the company that the MK3 would be right from day one and they seem to have succeeded. However, due to the MK2’s reputation, combined with stiff competition and the effects of the recession, buyers have walked away from the MK3 which is good news for second-hand buyers as the prices are attractive. The best is the 2.0dCi with the Nissan-Renault chain cam engine. This is an excellent reliable engine offering strong performance, refinement and decent economy. Combine this fine engine with Renault’s usual comfort, low levels of road noise intrusion, hugely improved build quality and you have a top-drawer car that would fly out of the showroom if it had a German badge on it. There was sufficient confidence in this model that Renault put a 100,000 mile warranty on it.
I read an article somewhere that before the Laguna MK3 came to the Britain, Renault UK wanted to rename it since the Laguna name had become associated with unreliability but Renault France wouldn’t allow it. Whether this is true I don’t know but it clearly didn’t happen anyway.
I would be amongst the first to admit that some of Renault’s products in the 2000 to 2004 period were not the best. As I said before, the company itself has come quite close (as far as any corporate organisation will) to admitting that. However for those prepared to leave the past behind and assess the more recent products in their own right, then they make very tempting buys. Compare the price of a second-hand MK3 Laguna to a similar age/mileage Passat; and that’s before you get on to comparing specifications.
Same applies to the Megane Mk3, another well-built, reliable, superbly refined and massively under-rated car but largely shunned due to the more troublesome MK2.
Don’t tell everyone though, they will all want one…
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Renault may well have spent more time getting the Laguna 3 reliable, but the problem is they forgot about the styling! Which is the cars biggest problem, especially after the attractive Laguna 2.
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>> Renault may well have spent more time getting the Laguna 3 reliable, but the problem
>> is they forgot about the styling!
Agree with that, the Mk2 may not have been the a particularly good car but it was very handsome, i'm sure the MK3 is a decent enough motor but the looks of it must have put many off.
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A bargain Renault - made me smile - Stuu
