The "Proper hydraulic steering" discussion in the "New Focus" thread prompts the question who is good enough to use their car to it's limits, tell what average quality tyres are fitted through the seat of their pants, have their driving affected by what type of steering is fitted ? (Everyday driving, public roads).
I am certainly not, my last two cars have had electric steering, a Focus with an electrically powered hydraulic system and the current one with a motor on the steering column. Both systems were/are speed sensitive and worked well.
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I certainly can, and do, push my cars to, and over, the limit (to see where it is) and bring it back to the safe side. I doubt I can, or have the chance to, drive it on the limit for any length of time on public roads and I doubt I have the tyres or car to do it either.
Do I hold up anyone on the twisties? no.
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>> I certainly can, and do, push my cars to, and over, the limit >>
Sounds like you drive like a nutter, please don't do it anywhere near me.
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Zero,
More people do that than many imagine, but they'll never admit it on here.
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Not me. I consider myself to be a fairly good driver with good perception and awareness, but will never get anywhere near the limits of my car.
Last car had electric steering and I liked it - very light in traffic / parking, but weighted up nicely at speed. I think that the true drivers are few and far between so I find most of the reviews talking about driver involvement, and steering feedback are irelevant to joe public
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Ive held an MGF on a power slide on a roundabout ( it was quiet ) so Ive done it but frankly now that Im older, I cant see the point or the enjoyment in it.
Plus if I could get my Carina in a powerslide Im not sure it has the ability to deal with it, forget about me!
I dont like electric power steering so much, but you get used to it in the end an it only feels weird if you hop out of a car with the proper set up and into an elec set up.
My Seicento has electric PAS and on the dead ahead it was always very twitchy no matter how smooth you tried to be and I found the same with the i10, but Im sure its down to the individual model.
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i could sell a 3 wheeled focus on a test drive if i so needed,theres very few people these days know how to do anything more than turn a steering wheel badly crash the gears fail to read the road and er speed
me ?i can tell within 300yds if a cars a goodun within reason
oh and i hate electric steering,its for mimsers who usually arent even aware a car has power steering just like talking to people who have had their cars for 3 years and didnt even know it had aircon fitted,yes theres loads of people out there who are thick
finally electric power steering never ever gives road feedback
hydraulic power steering isnt perfect but on quite a few cars does give feedback
idealy no power steering is the ideal for a propewr drivers car but hey we are all american clone wimps now and need the power
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>>finally electric power steering never ever gives road feedback
I drove a new Corsa van the other day. It must have the worst steering I've ever experienced since my Ford Consul Classic that had the steering box mounted on the flexible bulkhead.
The problem with the Corsa was it was far too direct with zero feel. I think I did the first five miles as a series of esses.
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>> I drove a new Corsa van the other day. It must have the worst steering
>> I've ever experienced
We have a fleet of these at work for crew shuttles etc and I have to agree with you - the steering is terrible. I presume it's the same for the car version, so I don't know how people can put up with it on a day to day basis.
Ruddy horrible interiors too...
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Bellboy
Your ability to value, sell and drive cars is well known to those who read this forum, because you constantly tell us.
You describe as 'thick' (which I interpret as 'stupid') drivers who are not totally familiar with the air conditioning facilities in their cars but there are some who would describe as 'thick' someone who was unable to use capital letters and punctuation marks in their correspondence.
It just depends on what turns you on.
From your postings I imagine that you and I would get on well together over a few pints in the local. During our conversation you could, perhaps, explain to me the more subtle uses of the air conditioning in my Japanese badged (but not Honda) car as, after 10 months of ownership and in possession of a degree in English, I have been unable to gain complete control of its various possibilities. Afterwards I would endeavour to explain that, in better circles, sentences begin with capital letters and end with full stops and in between there is scope for items such as commas, colons, hyphens and all sorts of other things that make reading a well written article just as enjoyable as driving a well maintained car.
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Bellboy
Your ability to value, sell and drive cars is well known to those who read this forum, because you constantly tell us.
>
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>>>>>>> er
i dont
i reply on what i see
sorry it upsets you
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>> but will never get anywhere near the limits of my car.
I push on a bit coming back from band practise after 10pm on a Friday night when it's usually pretty quiet on the roads (if it's not, I don't). No need to break the speed limit - just accelerate harder, use more revs (maybe does the engine some good) and take (empty) roundabouts more quickly.
Eg. here - tinyurl.com/39bwghz - you can dive in (the surface is actually slightly banked which helps) in 2nd and accelerate away round the left hander on the right, not giving it full throttle otherwise you end up in the hedge. Great fun.
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>> Eg. here>>
At least the local plods know where to be at 10pm on a Friday night. :-)
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...No need to break the speed limit - just accelerate harder, use more revs (maybe does the engine some good) and take (empty) roundabouts more quickly...
That's pretty much my definition of pressing on - more opportunities around here with the schools being off.
Such driving might not give the likes of Clarkson much of a thrill, but can be very rewarding in a decent handling car such as a Focus.
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>> At least the local plods know where to be at 10pm on a Friday night. :-)
:-) Actually the point I was partly trying to make was on roads like that you can reach a normal car's limits without attracting too much attention, especially if it's damp. Although I admit I wouldn't be brave enough to try it if being followed by the BiB.
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I should think very few of us are good enough drivers to drive our cars to their limits - simply because the 'limits' are set by the designers at the margins of safety (thank goodness). Personally - and it's fresh in my mind having just come back from a spin in the Z3 - I get more satisfaction from driving briskly but relaxedly, knowing that what I'm doing is well within the car's limits.
Professional road testers have to test cars to their limits - that's their job - but I do wish they wouldn't judge a car so much on how it behaves at the limit. I'm sure that's why so many of them prefer BMWs to Audis, accusing the latter of a lack of 'drivability' (whatever that is). For over 90 % of us, an Audi will give as much satisfaction as a BMW. They're different, and suit different types of driver, but both are fine cars.
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If I drove to my limits - let alone the car's - I would be dead.
In a ditch or wrapped round a horse or down a rocky cliff or head on collisions..
Frankly with our crowded roads, my view is that anyone who drives on them at the limit is a nutter.
The death tolls of the roads near us - Cat n Fiddle, Leek/Buxton, Congleton/Buxton prove that. Mostly idiots on bikes..
Last edited by: madf on Sat 7 Aug 10 at 19:44
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No power-steering system feels as good as a well set up unassisted rack'n'pinion.
Unless you are getting a Caterham or kit car it's a moot point I guess.
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My Arcam / Tannoy based Hi-Fi at 1/4 volume is more than enough for most ears,
Same with my car, I drive it at 1/2 volume most of the time,
I've never driven a car with electric PS, and by most accounts, I don't want to either.
Off now to watch a 'good' film - Plan 9 from outer space.
:-}
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We had a Honda Civic IMA in work - horrible electrically assisted steering the CVR has hydraulic....
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>> (Everyday driving, public roads).
You don't have to drive it there, track time's good fun and it's never been more accessible.
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There's more to it than on-the-limit behaviour, though. BB commented in my recent Giulietta thread that electric steering tires him out after an hour or so. I think I know what he means: if our 2008 Verso has electric steering - and I confess that I only think it does - it has resistance around the centre position but it feels curiously like stiffness rather than comforting weight. I think this is why I find the car fatiguing to drive long distances in a way my much older, hydraulically steered Volvo never is.
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Good question Navy, maybe it's not so much who's good or not but who's developed that close oneness with their vehicles that one can almost be at the point of tyre contact observing.
I can feel the difference when proper rubber is fitted to both our vehicles especially in the wet, pick ups very quickly give that superlight feeling that's only a fraction away from putting the tail out and they will unless the tyres are very good.
The MB i have modified slightly with wider lower profile wheels (yes i know) and good tyres which has lessened the ride quality some, well a fair bit, but has improved the handling to the point that roll (before quite severe) is almost eliminated and it's now limpet like grip takes it well out of my capabilities to get it to the edge.
I like to think i can feel whats going on at the ground, both cars have proper hydraulic power steering, pick up rack and pinion, MB steering box, and both are predictable and informative but obviously from different perspectives.
Haven't driven an electric assisted steering car for long enough to develop that intimacy but from what i read it's not there anyway, they feel ok once you've got used to it taking several seconds for steering power to come on stream with some makes once the engine is started.
Was hoping never to have a car with such steering but i know unfortunately once the MB goes if indeed i decide to sell then the likely replacement will have that and other unwanted tat and i'll just have to get used to driving a washing machine.
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I prefer driving my old Mondeo to my new Qashqai. Mainly due to the steering feel and response in the Ford being much better than that in the Nissan. The Mondeo has hydraulic steering and the Qashqai has electric.
I don't drive like a witch on fire anymore but I feel so much more confident to place the Ford accurately in a bend when I am pressing on a bit. The Nissan is great for lazy driving as I call it. It's an auto, it has 4WD and all manner of electronic wizardry to prevent it all coming unraveled but it just lacks "feel" and "soul" if that makes sense. It's like a computer game, very very clever but sort of not for grown ups.
The Mondeo conversely is about the best handling, most involving FWD mainstream car I've ever driven. Despite being an ageing diesel estate it can feel quite sporty in a way. Hard to explain. I'm not claiming to be extraordinarily expert behind the wheel but I am fussy and sensitive to the way a car feels when you want to hurry a bit. I had the same feelings about the Signum I had a while back. Good car in the main but just didn't feel right somehow. It had electric steering too I believe.
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You've got Richard Parry-Jones to thank for that, Humph - the Ford design guru who realised that ordinary working (as opposed to exotic or expensive) cars can and should be good to drive. Vauxhall and Nissan have yet to take this message on board, but fortunately plenty of others have: the Octavia, Mini and BMW Z3 in our household are all satisfying to drive, each in its own way.
I think RP-J and designers like him also made possible what many of us on this thread clearly want: to be able to enjoy getting the best out of our cars without testing them to the limit.
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I think you have it about right Avant. It's not about scorching around trying to find the vehicle's or your own limits but more about the feeling of confidence a well set up car gives you when you want to feel like you are driving as opposed to just making a journey.
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>>I prefer driving my old Mondeo to my new Quashqai
Humph, how do you find the seats in the Mondeo? I ask because a workmate traded in his old S reg Mondeo for a 2.0L Zetec (the clutch was going on it). He's a real fan of them. He loves the car but complains that the seats are a bit uncomfortable. What model is yours? Are the seats different according to the spec?
Last edited by: corax on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 11:19
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Must be affected by bodyshape, height, weight etc but for me the Mondy has the most comfortable seats of any car I've driven. I've driven it across Europe before now without a twinge. The Nissan has me sore in my lower back and the backs of my thighs after about 200 miles.
It's a 2002 Ghia X with heatable leather electrically adjustable seats. You can really fine tune them. Having said that the one before it was a poverty spec ex-Hertz LX which I got cheap and it was just as comfortable for me anyway.
Different folks different strokes I guess.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 11:32
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I've driven to the limits on a few occasions in a previous life. The blue lights help there, though. No need at all now to get anywhere near. Sedate mimsing does me fine !
I assume the Note has electric power, I don't really know, or care. The Dragon likes it and, on the odd distance trip I've driven, I like it too. The Vitara has hydraulic and I like that as well.
I'm just easy to please !
Ted
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While I can tell the difference between the two types I actually prefer electronic PAS. My dads Fiesta has a pump and although has more feel it is quite a bit heavier.
As I said on the other threat for most drivers the only concern with electronic PAS is the fact they don't seem to be as reliable in the long term.
For most legal driving on the public roads I really don't see why steering feel matters that much although some cars I have driven have a total lack of feel which does take some getting used to I don't think it is makes a slight bit of difference.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 11:36
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I read somewhere, (can't find it now), while researching my car before purchace that the electric steering system uses an AC motor.
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Yep it is just a motor with an ECU so it detects movement in the steering wheel and the motor 'assists'. This is a lot more efficient as it is only uses energy when you want to steer where as with a pump the engine is constantly 'pumping' it so they do use more fuel.
The problem is sometimes motors fail and its not a cheap job. If I keep my car long term the only major fault I would expect is this motor to fail. Its a £500 part.
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>> The "Proper hydraulic steering" discussion in the "New Focus" thread prompts the question who is
>> good enough to use their car to it's limits, tell what average quality tyres are
>> fitted through the seat of their pants, have their driving affected by what type of
>> steering is fitted ? (Everyday driving, public roads).
>>
I don't think it comes down to "who is good enough". Familiarity has a lot to do with it.
When I rode my motorbike for work every day, I could tell when the front tyre was down by 0.5psi simply because within 100m of leaving the front door I had a 90 right hander followed by a 90 degree left which required more effort on the softer tyre. Braking was also noticably softer.
How many people comment on how much lighter the steering is after having a new set of tyres fitted ? It is quite noticable the closer to the 1.6mm limit you get.
I did not get a PAS equiped car until 1996, a Peugeot 306XRdt, I did not get on with the steering at first having come from a non-PAS Mk2 Golf GTi.
The last three cars I have had, two have had good feel for me, FIAT Coupe and Volvo S60. The Peugeot 206 was a bit light, I put that down to it being aimed at the city market, the other two not.
I am sure electric systems will be customised to the application in the near future if not already done so. I would not expect a sports car with electric steering to feel like an electric steering city car.
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>> I am sure electric systems will be customised to the application in the near future
>> if not already done so. I would not expect a sports car with electric steering
>> to feel like an electric steering city car.
>>
The electric system on my car is speed sensitive, and is also electronically linked to the anti skid system and will vary the assistance dependent on driving style, (apparently).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 12:17
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I'm sure it is set by KIA to handle the way they interpret safety for a medium sized family estate car.
I would expect BMW to have a different set of parameters for a 6 cylinder Z4.
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Probably true, I haven't provoked the emergency brake assist, (automatic rear ended system), yet either. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 12:27
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Something you should try out to see how the car handles.
I was amazed how hard the car will stop when emergency brake assist kicks in when a dog ran out in front of me. Car behind me was a good ten car lengths back when I braked, he was almost in my boot when Mutley made a second pass. Probably a combination of EBD and driver behind not paying attention.
Scary thing was I lifted my foot from the brake and it seemed to take a while for the car to recognise this.
The above is why I went out and messed about in my wife's C4 GP, and posted on here, to see what the emergency handbrake system did when provoked.
Last edited by: gmac on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 12:42
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Only time I drove close to the limits was back in my Mini days and out on the track... I've never seen much need since, if I want to make fast progress I can, but it wouldn't be within a whisker of the limit, either of the car or me, I prefer to have some margin for error... As regards tyre pressures, I'm another one who can tell if they are even slightly out on my own car, and as previously said, I expect its familiarity and knowing what to expect from your own vehicle...
Power steering? Sorry, BB but I'm a fan... I can't see any reason to go back to the days of having to drag the steering round in non-assisted cars... not lazyness or Americanism, just common sense! And now they are starting to produce an auto which gets close to manual fuel consumption I'll be looking at them too...
Last edited by: hobby on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 15:15
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...was back in my Mini days...
Fond memories of my Mini van.
Pressing on was easy, just flat out and steer and let the car's remarkable roadholding do the rest.
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>> ...was back in my Mini days...
>>
The youngsters don't know what they missed with the original (real) Mini.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 15:29
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>> The youngsters don't know what they missed with the original (real) Mini.
Rust, discomfort, no iPod connection and a euro ncap rating that gives mums heart palpatations. you can have the mini, I'll take the ceed :-p
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..., I'll take the ceed :-p...
That's because you wouldn't recognise a car with decent handling if it ran you over. :)
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>> That's because you wouldn't recognise a car with decent handling if it ran you over. :)
Mr Scuttle Shake, i will press charges if you understeer your way over me :-P
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Mini's, I could never understand the attraction of them. Drove my mates, and almost crashed into the back of another car when I pushed the brake pedal and nothing happened. The joys of all-drum brakes. They handled OK up to a point, and then understeered into the nearest field. Also put me off when I saw people being wheel-chaired out of them. Give me a MK1 or 2 Escort any day.
And don't forget the stuttering to a standstill when the distributor got soaked in heavy rain...
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marc bolan cured me of minis
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...marc bolan cured me of minis...
Cured me of trees.
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...Mr Scuttle Shake, i will press charges if you understeer your way over me :-P...
Ha-ha, very good.
The ol' shake is not so bad on the CC3 as on some of the competition, according to road tests.
Some surfaces upset it, but car is still recognisably a Focus when it comes to handling.
It has that nice, planted, on rails feel around bends which I've not found in the few other Eurohatches I've driven.
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>> but car is still recognisably a Focus when it comes to handling.
The Focus woke up the competition with it's mass market positioning but with attention to handling. Various other manufacturers woke up and responded to different degrees.
Renault appears to be wide awake now too, with it's well recieved handling in the new Megane, Clio and Twingo.
In a short time the pundits will be crying out that the focus needs to get off the laurels and up its game.
But the jury's most definitely still out on whether a CC3 handles in the same league it's tin lid sibling ;-) Of course that doesn't matter because noone's ever likely to be caught out my a deer or anything like that in the course of normal driving and have reason to exploit the cars abilities! ;-)
Last edited by: CraigP on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 18:20
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you dont produce a hairdressers car for a butch barber do you........
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I am by no means the world's best driver, but I do have enough ability to make a fairly well informed judgement on the relative handling differences between different cars.
For example, I can immediately notice how much the heavy diesel engine affects the balance of a mk4 Golf compared to its petrol sister when I drive our two, and how although the petrol GTI is more than capable of entertaining me on a good road, it isn't a patch on a Focus, or even a Peugeot 306 from 1995.
I quickly learned to appreciate, and enjoy the quick, well weighted steering and beautiful, slightly tail happy balance of the Pugs when I had them, and marvelled (and still do) at how Peugeot managed to achieve taut, beautifully controlled body movement in conjunction with a supple, compliant ride and low road noise levels. For sheer fun and feel, the old Pug has, in my opinion, everything ever made in that class licked, including its supposed conqueror where affordable drivers cars were concerned, the Focus. The Focus is a great car, but somehow just lacks that last little bit of damping finesse and suppleness of the Pug.
I get intensely frustrated by the numbness of modern PAS, and the ever increasing isolation between driver and mechanical bits. I don't like electronics that can't be switched off (ABS aside).
I appreciate the way a BMW seems to pivot around the driver, and the way you get the sense of sitting well behind the front wheels, which are slung as far forward in the chassis as possible. That is a piece of marketing spiel which isn't nonsense. I love the way BMWs handle.
My one RTA in 18 years of driving was a non-faulter on a dead straight piece of road, and within the speed limit. When I do engage in beyond limit silliness, I pick my times and places carefully. The frequency of this has decreased massively in the last few years. I blame the cars I drive now, neither of which seem to appreciate a grab by the balls driving style. The Pug, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Focus used to absolutely love it.
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>> I appreciate the way a BMW seems to pivot around the driver
Everything seems to happen through your hips in mine. I went on a skid pan half day (organised by the police of all folks), with the second half spent in my car.
The way they hunker down to put the power down, and the rotating through the hips. Best i've ever experienced.
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>> The way they hunker down to put the power down, and the rotating through the
>> hips. Best i've ever experienced.
Very good balance. I find mine a bit cramped with the transmission tunnel protruding into the cabin, but the upside is the handling. Very enjoyable. Any slide I've had has been slow and predictable.
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>> ....but the upside is the handling. Very enjoyable. Any slide I've had has
>> been slow and predictable.
>>
What? Even in the snow last winter?
If so, then I shall give you a big dollop of respect for your driving skills. Last winter put me off BMW (and RWD) for life.
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Having spent my formative motoring years on a diet of mainly RWD cars in Scotland where the winters are often harsh I'm afraid I don't quite agree.
Sure, a FWD or a 4WD will give better traction from rest particularly on a slope but once on the move I'd far rather deal with unforeseen oversteer than understeer.
With the former it is usually more than possible and relatively easy to catch it and correct it before it causes loss of pride but understeer can be much harder to correct in time. Of course you can lift off and let the car settle but by that time you are possibly on the wrong side of the road if on a left hander or have connected with the kerb if you lose it while negotiating a right hand bend. With RWD if traction or grip breaks the front wheels are still available for steering and the front of your car is still pointing by and large where you want it to.
I have scared myself far more often in FWDs in the snow than RWDs. Of course the RWD will slip and slither a bit but once you learn to expect it and how easy it is to control it becomes fun. Can't say I've ever found understeer amusing.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 20:27
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Reminds me of one of Richard Hammond's better quotes. Oversteer is better than understeer because you don't see the tree that kills you. ;)
I certainly agree that understeer is not amusing. I've never understood how loss of steering control is considered the safer option. Less dramatic, yes. But safe??
Last edited by: DP on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 20:49
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Yes safe(er),
Understeer scrubs off speed, and you have some degree of steering control.
Oversteer does not loose speed, you have no directional control, (once lost) and you end up lord knows where. Usually in someone elses way.
Just because a car is FWD, it does not have to be an automatic understeerer, its just the way they are set up. Even a BMW is set up with a degree of understeer in normal use, its just that providing ample power to the rear wheels, its easy to provoke oversteer if that is your wish.
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...understeer...oversteer...
Am I the only person on here who has never fully understood the difference?
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>> ...understeer...oversteer...
>>
>> Am I the only person on here who has never fully understood the difference?
Iffy, very very simply, just for you.
Understeer, The front sliding.
Oversteer, The back sliding.
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>> ...understeer...oversteer...
>>
>> Am I the only person on here who has never fully understood the difference?
>>
Clearly you're not the only person - this thread has been very entertaining.
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then put us all out of our misery NC.
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>> Am I the only person on here who has never fully understood the difference?
Iffy, it's technically cheating, but you can put on a stiffer rear anti roll bar on the CC3, like this fella --> www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/products.asp?partno=BMR78XZ__f
A bit of bartering would get that delivered for ~£120. Dust off the old socket set and 30 mins later -->
Turn in (slightly) too soon and with too much speed (going for understeer) then lift off the throttle and instead of understeering out the corner, it all tightens up (back end slides round) and you steer into the slide to go round, then accelerate out of it (for FWD).
Or stop mincing about in that pretend Focus and get yourself a BMW :-P
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The question of understeer or oversteer was purely academic to me last winter.
Just getting the bar steward moving was impossible in the first place. (And , yes, I tried loads of tips from forums like this, e.g. extremely heavy weights in the boot, turning traction control on and off, imaginative use of gearbox).
Never, ever, ever, EVER had these problems with FWD, even during really bad winters.
"Ultimate Driving Machine"......yeah...so long as the weather is nice.
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>> "Ultimate Driving Machine"......yeah...so long as the weather is nice.
Can I ask you what BMW you were driving, and what were the wheels and tyres? Mine last year had 205/60 15's, and I really didn't have a problem, although I drove smoothly and gently, and didn't have to contend with any steep hills.
I suspect you may have had elastic bands and dustbin lids on your carriage. If you put some steels and winter tyres on I reckon you wouldn't believe the difference :-)
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Oh jings we'll be on to the reasons why it's so vital to get your new tyres fitted to the back again shortly if we're not careful. I don't think we should risk that eventuality....
:-)
Any good deals on wiper blades or aftermarket car mats been had this weekend ?
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Sun 8 Aug 10 at 22:15
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>> Oh jings we'll be on to the reasons why it's so vital to get your
>> new tyres fitted to the back again shortly if we're not careful. I don't think
>> we should risk that eventuality....
Oh dear yes, if theres an R in the month you have to switch to winter tyres!
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>> Oh dear yes, if theres an R in the month you have to switch to
>> winter tyres!
>>
Does that include July in the Street-Porter household ?
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Yeah, sorry Humph, I might have opened up a whole can of worms here, and I don't want to go back to all that winter talk just yet (How's the snow in your area? e.tc e.t.c)
Wiper blades? Just picked a set of Trico's, and marvellous they are too :-)
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Well we touched on it once but I think we got away with it ! Don't mention the thaw.....
:-)
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>> Can I ask you what BMW you were driving, and what were the wheels and
>> tyres?
Certainly. A 320d Touring. The tyre profile is 205/55 R16. Hardly "elastic bands!" :-)
On each wheel is a Bridgestone Turanza ER3000 Run-Flat (Cough! Spit!) tyre.
They were relatively new last winter, so they had plenty of tread. I had done about 4000 miles on the front tyres, and about 2000 miles on the rears.
I've toyed with the idea of putting a set of winter tyres on the car for next winter, but I've looked at the cost, and I can't be bothered to waste any more money on the wretched car. I just want rid of it, but can't persuade SWMBO as yet to release the funds.
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Who is good enough ? - Zero
