I'm based in Herfordshire.
Every time I have the car radio on as I drive around and the traffic news comes on, it's all full of the woes of jams on the M25.
This year, as so often in the past, we've decided to stick the car on a ferry and motor around the Continent in September.
So I booked a Dover ferry for the late-ish and cheaper departure time of noon. Then I did a bit of thinking and reckoned that we'd still need to start pretty early to be there on time, if we allow for what seem to be frequent horrendous delays on the road.
So I booked the night previous to departure at a Travel Inn on the M20 for the bargain price of £29, to avoid the stress and worry.
Am I being unduly pessimistic?
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Nope you are doing exactly what I would do for that journey. The possibility of a problem with the Dartford crossing would scare me in to it too.
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It depends on how early you want to start.
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Sounds like a very sensible plan. I have a colleague who commutes from Ilford to Heathrow a couple of times a week. His journey times can vary by as much as 90 minutes!
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>> I'm based in Herfordshire.
Are you in HerEfordshire, or HerTfordshire?
Whichever, go to the end of the M11 and through Blackwall, and pop out along the A2. I junction of M25 to M20.
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Mappy,
Home in Northampton to Dover is around three hours via M1/M25/M2. I've often contemplated the Blackwall route but it the northern approach via North Circ and A12 looks to have plenty of opportunity for it's own jams. The one time I did use it (going from Holborn to a conference near Tonbridge) it took forever - even after navigating the City. Is A406/A12 actually the right way to tackle it from the M11?
It certainly looks to have a good link to the M2 which is my preferred way into Dover - the Jubilee Way is much prefereable to the endless roundabouts along the sea front before joining the link to the M20.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 16 Aug 10 at 14:31
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A406/A12 is perfect; A406/A13 is an alternative option.
It does have opportunity for jams - and it's a couple of years since I last used it during the day time, but I always used to find it pretty clear (otherwise than at rush hour) - in any case we've had a recession since then and traffic has dropped accordingly.
The A2 can be a bit steady, but actually it's not bad (the A20 which has a siren call, owing to being a little shorter, is horrific). Just by way of note, I live a little way south of Tower Bridge. If heading to Kent, I would go north through the Rotherhithe tunnel, and then back south through Blackwall tunnel.
It's a second string to your bow, an alternative to the M25 if the traffic information says AVOID!
>>its own jams
Hey, this is the south east. Jam with everything.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Mon 16 Aug 10 at 16:38
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"this is the south east. Jam with everything."
That is exactly how it seems.
I'm in Hertfordshire, by the way. Sorry about the typo.
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If you are catching a ferry in non peak times and you miss it the likelihood is that the ferry Co will just put you on the next one - Norfolk Lines certainly do
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Blackwall Tunnel? As in Lorry stuck in Blackwall Tunnel twice a week?
DOnt go there.
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I've done a couple of Saturday afternoon runs down to Tilbury/Lakeside in recent weeks, Blackwall was shut a few weeks ago at weekends so queues were from A127 down to tunnel.
I did similar trip this last Saturday afternoon, Blackwall open as far as i know, queues again from A127 down to tunnel.
Both times i nipped off at 127 and took the 2 obvious parallel diversions which helped.
CP you have the right idea, i would do that too.
You couldn't pay me enough to live anywhere near the place.
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I'm with Mappy on this one. Don't approach the Blackwall tunnel going southbound on A102. The best bet is from M11, take the North Circular A406 until you reach the A13 and then head west until you get to the Blackwall tunnel.
This route is usually more free flowing and has the advantage of no speed cameras on that part of A13.
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate on Mon 16 Aug 10 at 22:29
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DE
Do you mean A102 or A12 (West Cross Route)?- A102 seems to be the tunnel itself and the Southern approach?
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We live far enough away to be able to react to jams.
First time we went down there was a serious accident on the M25 which delayed us over an hour. Seeing a Transit mimibus shortened by about four feet by a lorry wasn't pleasant - the passengers were still in it.
Recently we have tended to drive down to within 20 miles of Dover, stay in a hotel, and get a ferry at about 0900, next time (mid Sept) we are collecting son in Slough and ferry is evening followed by Hotel in Coquelles.
Key is that they don't turn you away if you are late, they put you on a later ferry.
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Thanks to all who have responded. Generally the feeling seems to be that I was right to avoid the M25 with a deadline looming and the potential for the beginning of our holiday to be spoilt.
I am aware that ferries will usually (always?) put you on a later sailing if you miss the one you've booked for and I once had the experience of arriving unexpectedly early, to be put on the previous sailing.
The problem with a later sailing (and we're talking Norfolk Line) is that your time of arrival at the other side is put back by two hours and, as we like to book our first night's accommodation in advance, there's a knock-on effect.
We're planning a complicated tour this time: taking a leisurely journey down to Provence, with a few detours to include places we've read about but have not so far visited. Then on by the coast road into Italy, aiming for the Cinque Terre region, where we have booked a hotel for a few nights.
After that it's more flexible, but we are due in Luxembourg for a few days towards the end of our (extended) fortnight to stay with friends, and I imagine we shall eventually come back along the coast and back up through France, staying as far south as possible, for as long as possible, to catch the last of the warm weather.
(We thought of including the Dolomites on the way back, but that would take us away prematurely from a part of Italy we don't know and wouldn't have the time to explore properly, plus a likely return journey through Switzerland and the added cost of a vignette merely for the privilege of making the transit. Maybe next year!)
All this in September - no kids and cheaper prices. The advantages of being retired!
Last edited by: ChrisPeugeot on Tue 17 Aug 10 at 09:34
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I always book the Shuttle late evening (10-ish) or early morning (5-ish) going and early evening (6-ish) on the way back, never had any problem on the M25 yet travelling to/from the West Mids to get there for those times, normally a relaxing 3 hour journey...
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The other possibility, which is what we have been doing for the last couple of years due to regular and frequent trips to Austria, is to get a later ferry and stop just in to France - we've been going just as far as Lille where there is an Etap just off the motorway. The advantage of these is that you can turn up anytime and use your credit/debit card to get in if reception is closed. You can then make a good early start the next day.
Have a good trip anway, sounds like fun!!
Last edited by: Mike H on Tue 17 Aug 10 at 10:37
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"Best" (i.e. most convenient) hotel I've ever stayed at in France was a hotel AT a motorway service station as I whizzed past at about 10pm. They wouldn't sell me more than 250ml of wine with supper though which was a little disappointing.
The ferries/tunnel will put you (check the small print before you rely on this) on a departure +/- 2 hours without charge. So if the earliest you can get there is noon, book a 2pm departure, they will advance you to noon without charge and it leaves you 4 hours' grace if you are delayed until 4pm.
If both Blackwall and Dartford are shut you are very unlucky; personally I'd risk a 9am departure from home having booked a 2pm ferry/tunnel
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Bromptonaut,
Yes I meant avoid the A102 south running tunnel approach as it seems to be often snarled up. Approaching the tunnel entrance from the east on A13 almost always seems the the better bet.
Separately, I think I've had confirmation of a little plan I've been working on...... it's to buy a guest house within say 10 miles of Calais and offer B&B with slightly extended incoming / check-out times. Make sure it had secure parking and advertised solely to Brits I think it would be a busy business. We'd even have HP sauce !
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Chris, I wouldn't rule out Switzerland if I were you. The vignette is around £20 but then the motorways are "free". I find in going to Italy that if you go round Switzerland you pay far more on tolls in France and the Mont blanc tunnel (if you go that way). Infact, the Montblanc tunnel alone costs more than the vignette.
Also the motorway through Switzerland is spectacular in places, and the Gottard pass is great without being too "risky". Another thing to remember is that petrol is cheaper in Switzerland than France or Italy, not sure about the diesel however.
Hope you enjoy anyway, sounds great.
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PR, I see your point. We're not averse to Switzerland (indeed, have driven through and holidayed there several times), but the alternative we're probably going to use is a highly indirect route through the Alpes Maritimes in France where the whole idea is to discover new places in that area. We thought that a holiday for another year might involve driving through Switzerland and making more of that than simply passing through, then afterwards maybe going on south to the Dolomites.
One year we spent some time in Switzerland and gradually worked our way across to the Italian Lakes.
We love France and Italy and, let's face it, there's so much to see you could have many holidays without repeating yourself.
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>> Yes I meant avoid the A102 south running tunnel approach as it seems to be
>> often snarled up. Approaching the tunnel entrance from the east on A13 almost always seems the the better bet.
That's a very good point Dully (sic) - it's the little bit of that journey that I would never do. Use the A13 to join Blackwall.
>>No speed cameras on the A13
Is this the same A13 as I use?! ;)
It bristles with them like a prize fighter's week-old beard.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 17 Aug 10 at 15:29
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>>No speed cameras on the A13
Is this the same A13 as I use?! ;)
Yep ! A virtual pint for you for every single fixed speed camera on the Westbound stretch of A13 from A406 (North Circular) to the Blackwall Tunnel turn off.
Eastbound, when people are rushing home to Essex, is liberally sprinkled with them. Serves 'em right for living there = LOL !
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Gosh. I only ever dash out to the country, going home is not a rush!
The A12 is splattered with them in both directions.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 18 Aug 10 at 10:45
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After missing the 2am alarm we set off from Chesterfield for the Dover ferry at 3.50am. Made the first ,8am ish ,Sea France ferry with 40 minutes in hand. Whew.
£77 return booked well in advance.
Last edited by: Glaikit Wee Scunner Snr. {P} on Wed 18 Aug 10 at 13:13
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Latitude with late arrival extends only to shortish periods!!
We left Calais at 17:00 last Tuesday for the 18:00 Norfolkline sailing ex Dunkerque. A well rehearsed trip and as expected we joined the check in queue at 17:35. SWMBO extracts the booking confirmation and exclaims loudly - I'd booked the ferry for MONDAY.
Check in guy, clearly used to this form of English eccentricity, directs us to go through all the controls, put the car in line N and report to the ticket office. Biggest problem was finding the ticket office in the deserted terminal.
After being releived of E45 for revision of the ticket and a sprint over the assembly area worthy of Ussain Bolt we were marshalled onto the freight deck just in time to hear the Captain's announcement that the vessel was being secured for sea etc. By the time we got to the passenger space Seaways Delft was already going astern off the linkspan.
We were home in Northampton bang on time at 22:00.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 18 Aug 10 at 14:15
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This is bad news.
I have used Norfolkline for the last 6 years (2 or 3 returns pa) and never paid any charges for changes of date time and car registration. I have used tickets 6 months out of date, and turned up 3 months early.
I just hope that they are not starting to adopt the P&O philosophy of screw the customer, "we don't need your business, we make our money from freight". That is an actual quote from last summer when they charged me £70 for bringing forward a booking by 24hrs. I know other people who have had the same treatment from P&O in the last 12 months.
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I'd to pay £10 to vary the ferry date on return. But the conditions were clearly set out by Sea France when I booked. So no quibble at all, especially at £77 return.
I checked the tunnel fares out and short notice booking was for £199 each way, at a fixed time as well. Think I'll stick to the ferry- the 1 1/2 hr break is most welcome when driving both sides of La Manche.
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My Norfolkline fare was crossing specific, the booking web page gave individual prices for each sailing, so being charged a 'difference' plus an amend fee seemed reasonable. More expensive 'flexible' fares were also quoted. I think SeaFrance have a similar system, ages since I travelled P&O as I like their ships least and they're usually most expensive.
The Norfolkline practice that does hack me is the fuel surcharge. The fares are dynamically priced according to demand and any fuel cost assumptions could easily be built into the price you see first. But, OTOH, £71 for a return crossing in July/August would have been a pipe dream 10yrs ago - more like £200 at a guess.
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>> This is bad news.
>>
>> I have used Norfolkline for the last 6 years (2 or 3 returns pa) and
>> never paid any charges for changes of date time and car registration. I have used
>> tickets 6 months out of date, and turned up 3 months early.
>>
>> I just hope that they are not starting to adopt the P&O philosophy of screw
>> the customer,
Oh dear, what a pity, making the customer honour their appointment. If you turned up for my ferry six months late you would be swimming.
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IIRC when we went to France 12 years ago the comparable fare was ~£280. Gradually come down in £ notes since.
I've no quibble at all with the Sea France £10 surcharge to alter the booking.
Just a happy customer.
Apart from the desolate refreshment free Calais dockside. All right, there are coin operated machines next to the fragrant facilities.
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M25 & the run to Dover - commerdriver
