In 33 yrs of motoring.
Got nabbed by an ANPR parking camera that's recently been introduced to a local shopping car park. 2 hr max stay limit. I outstayed my welcome by 17 mins.
£60 fine, payable within 14 days. After that it goes up to £100, payable within 28 days.
I didn't take much notice of the sign as I drove in. Parked in disabled bay. Had my mum with me, who has a blue badge. Naturally assumed it entitled me up to 3 hrs parking. Apparently not!
I went back to the scene of the crime today and in small print at the bottom of the sign it says that disabled concessions do not apply. 2 hrs max for everyone.
There are no signs where the disable parking is indicating the restriction. The sign entering the car park doesn't give you time to read it whilst negotiating the LH turn into the car park. The only signs (2 of them) in the car park are approx. 10 feet up the same poles that hold the car park lighting. I've taken photos to verify this. Do they expect a person of limited mobility to walk across the car park to read a sign?
Obviously the ANPR system isn't going to be able to distinguish who is disabled and who isn't. It's just a dumb camera taking photos of cars entering and exiting the car park and logging the entry/exit time.
I read somewhere about the disabled act where the car park owners are being discriminate against disabled people. Especially if they're not regularly patrolling the car park to make sure no blue badge misuse is occurring. Something they have to do if they're registered with the British Parking Association and their Code of Practice.
Have I got any chances of an appeal?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 3 Feb 18 at 16:44
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The two I've received (Twenty years apart, one in Welling and the last in Fishguard) have both been when I was visiting the opticians, ironically. Both times I misread the signs restricting parking to residents only on the side of the road I left the car.
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>>The two I've received
I have had more than two BUT the highest fine I have paid is £6.00. I reckon that was around 1984 - I parked in St Andrews Sq, Edinburgh & forgot I was on a meter.
I had a company pass for the "John Lewis" carpark - well same car park different entrances & separated by a barrier- great on a Saturday with l o n g queues to the JL entrance to go next door, card in slot & the barrier let you in.
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>> Have I got any chances of an appeal?
No. See 11.1 here: tinyurl.com/yba4jspm
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Nowadays, if I do have to pay to park, I'm very careful to read the "small print".
Now that all the enforcement officers are results-driven, tolerance of even short overstays seems to have vanished.
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ANPR: I stay in at least one hotel a week and now actively avoid those with "Parking Eye" systems where you have to enter your registration number or receive a £60+ penalty. One error, or slip up or even them denying you entered the details when you did will get you a bill.
Three hotels that I used to stay with about 20 nights combined a year have lost my business.
BTW, I understand that Parking Eye is actually owned by Capita, which explains a lot!
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Blue badge argument has no legs nothing to do with it, you are not disabled and you were driving
Appeal or pay, but do either quickly
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Always have spare number plates if you are going into these types of car park. Ideally , with the details of the CEO of the parking company!!
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>> Blue badge argument has no legs nothing to do with it, you are not disabled and you were driving.
The first part of that is true, the second isn't. There's no reason why he can't use a blue badge whilst using his own car to drive the owner of the badge. What he can't do is leave the owner of the badge, in a car in a disabled bay, whilst he goes off to do an errand of his own.
The rules are complicated. I drive a disable person and wish I'd found the webpage in the link above when I started doing it.
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>> >> Blue badge argument has no legs nothing to do with it, you are not
>> disabled and you were driving.
>>
>> The first part of that is true, the second isn't.
It is when your argument is that the signs were not visible or accessible to the disabled
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>> The rules are complicated. I drive a disable person and wish I'd found the webpage
>> in the link above when I started doing it.
>>
I don't think they're necessarily complicated; but I can understand that if the driver himself has reduced mobility, being able to access the relevant signage could be difficult.
I do, however, wish they'd highlight the bit about not parking in loading bays better. I've had many instances in the past where a blue badge driver has flatly refused to move to allow me to unload, despite there being available parking spaces, both disabled and general, within sight. I am generally sympathetic towards blue badge holders, being of the opinion that it may well be a concession which i shall be myself grateful for in future years; but the attitudes of some of them do try one's patience.
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>> I do, however, wish they'd highlight the bit about not parking in loading bays
>> better.
I've never blocked off loading bays, or parked in them. Generally Oxfordshire County Council allow free parking in the majority of their car parks as they'd sooner you park there than clog up the roads by parking on double yellow lines. Swindon operate the same policy. On the rare occasion that I have parked on double yellows, I've always made sure the road is wide enough not to hinder another motorist, nor have I parked in such a way to cause any other obstruction or hazard.
Back to my parking ticket. like I said earlier, I feel the signage is inadequate. If they don't allow 3 hrs for disabled badge users, then I feel they should display signs where the disabled parking is.
The car park is actually split into 2 separate car parks, with Home Bargains having "their" own car park, and a slightly larger car park for Argos, B & M, New Look, and a couple of other shops.
It's recently been in the media that people have been caught out by the "no return within 3 hrs" restriction. tinyurl.com/y83s4wjp (Oxford Mail)
Having shopped in Home Bargains, we then wanted to pop into Argos, and also B & M. Because of the recent news item I didn't move my car from one car park to the other for fear of getting a ticket for returning within 3 hours. Presuming of course it's one ANPR system for both car parks as they're next to one another? goo.gl/maps/6sUPxtUjbZ52 (Home Bargains is on the left, and Argos etc are on the right.)
Mum suffers from a condition called Atrial fibrillation (among other ailments). Providing she has her mobility walker with her, or something else to push (eg a shopping trolley), she's generally ok and doesn't get out of breath quite so much. So it was agreed to leave the car where it was and gently walk over to the other shops.
Fair enough, I shouldn't have taken it for granted that a blue badge allows up to 3 hrs parking, but clearer indication of such a policy should also apply IMHO.
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Complain to your MP - they've not got much to do at the moment and it'll increase the chances that these outfits won't be allowed to get RK details from DVLA in future.
Parking may become even more of a nightmare in many places though.
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>> Complain to your MP
I've sent an email off to the lady in charge of the local Campaign Group, who's mentioned in the newspaper article I previously posted. Alright, it won't get me off the parking fine, but it might get things moving with regard to better signage and anything else they can throw at these parking cowboys.
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>> Blue badge argument has no legs nothing to do with it, you are not disabled
>> and you were driving
>>
Actually, if the disabled person needs additional time to shop [assuming they didn't stay in the car] then additional time could come under the 'reasonable adjustments' heading.
I'd go here for tips before paying: forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163
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>> ANPR: now actively avoid those with "Parking Eye" systems
The lot that nabbed me are Smart Parking (also trade as Town and City Parking).
Gonna lodge an appeal based on:
them not abiding by the Equality Act 2010.
16.5 If your landowner provides a concession that allows parking for disabled people, if a vehicle displays a valid Blue Badge you must not issue it with parking charge notices.
18.10 So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there should be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle. Ideally this sign should be close to any parking bays set aside for disabled motorists.
The BPA Code of Practice state that if an occupant of the car is disabled or elderly they will be legally entitled to a 'reasonable adjustment'. That can and should include an extension of time, over and above free or paid-for parking time.
The ANPR system is neither reliable nor accurate, Time on site is not parking time.
There are other bits and pieces I've found on the internet, but they seem to be the key ones.
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But you are not a disabled motorist are you?
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>> But you are not a disabled motorist are you?
>>
This seems to be bugging one or two people
In me view if you are driving someone who has a blue badge and who is not capable of driving themselves surely the same rules should apply to you if you have the blue badge holder with you and they are coming withe you when you exit the vehicle.
Anything less surely discriminates against the disabled person who is unable to exit the car without her able bodied driver.
Are you really that fussy.
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>> But you are not a disabled motorist are you?
Correct. However the same rules apply to any occupants of a vehicle that may well own a blue badge.
A blue badge covers the vehicle for parking. It can belong to anyone who is being transported in that vehicle.
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16.10 specifically applies to a disabled motorist.
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>> 18.10 specifically applies to a disabled motorist.
Small detail. You're just nit picking. The vehicle concerned contained a disabled person who owns a blue badge. Besides which, when appealing, you don't have to identify who the driver was. In fact, it's been suggested only to supply the keeper details.
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So driving a car with a blue badge stopped you reading the signs did it. Having access to a disabled bay certainly knocks holes in the "time of entry is not the time of parking" argument
What gets people's goats is trying to wriggle out of a cock up by using an argument, that at the time, is not applicable,
At no time was the parking offence caused by the passenger being disabled, it's just using it as a get out excuse
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 5 Feb 18 at 11:49
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While I wouldn't be as forthright as Zero I think the visiting several stores/reasonable adaptions line is more likely to succeed than anything based on signage. If it clearly states 2 hours at entry and there's nothing more specific by the disabled bays then it's a pretty big assume that disabled limit will be three hours.
Indeed there would be an obvious practical issue there on a camera controlled site; how does the camera tell if you're disabled?
Our local Aldi/Iceland co-located site asks you to give your reg to cashier if you're disabled and likely to be over their limit which, IIRC, is 90minutes.
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>> So driving a car with a blue badge stopped you reading the signs did it.
I previously said, the entry sign is difficult to read, it doesn't give you time to read it whilst negotiating the tight LH turn into the car park, and avoiding cars exiting the car park. The only other sign is in the middle of the car park, high up, and you have to walk in amongst the other parked cars to be able to read it. There are also no signs prior to entering the car park warning of any restrictions.
>> At no time was the parking offence caused by the passenger being disabled, it's just
>> using it as a get out excuse
I was asking for advice, not patronising comments. IIRC, you have (or had) a disabled family member, so ought to know better.
I spoke to the store manager this morning who strongly advised me to appeal. He's had loads of complaints (and abuse) about the parking sharks who operate the car park. Even taxi drivers refuse to take people shopping there now because of the "no return within 3 hrs" restriction. The store owner has also been onto the car park owner to adjust the time limit from 2hrs to 3 hrs, but to no avail. If my appeal is rejected, then I've to contact him again and he should be able to help further, but can't do anything until I start an appeal.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 5 Feb 18 at 13:07
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While the time permitted for parking may be arbitrary or set in hope of profit there can be other factors.
At nearest Sainsbury it's normally 3 hours but reduced to two when Saints (Premiership Rugger) or Cobblers (whatever footie league they're in this year) are at home. Plenty can afford match tickets, drinks etc but are too tight to pay £3 for the stadia specific car parks. Parking on the verges of the Ring Road is banned due same silliness.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 5 Feb 18 at 13:13
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>> I was asking for advice, not patronising comments. IIRC, you have (or had) a disabled
>> family member, so ought to know better.
I did indeed have a blue badge registered against my car, and I do know better which is why my comments are not patronising but deeply critical. Had you at any time said we overstayed because the time allowed was insufficient for my mother's needs I would have backed and applauded you. As it is YOU cocked up now you are being cynically and shamefully dishonest
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>> Had you at any time said we overstayed because the time allowed was insufficient for my mother's needs I would have backed and applauded you.
So, you missed the bit where I said "Mum suffers from a condition called Atrial fibrillation (among other ailments). Providing she has her mobility walker with her, or something else to push (eg a shopping trolley), she's generally ok and doesn't get out of breath quite so much"
Even with her mobility walker (or other aid, such as shopping trolley) she still has to take regular stops because she gets out of breath.
I am not being "shamefully dishonest" as you put it. She takes longer to do things because of her medical condition. And leaving her at home, or in the car while I go do the shopping is not an option either. She still likes to get out and about rather than being cooped up.
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No I didn't miss that it because it clearly doesn't say
As a result we were unable to complete our task in the time
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Son got a ticket for being 15 mins ish over time at a branch of Snow & Rock, he was having ski boots fitted.
I contacted the store manager for him who in turn contacted the parking company who rescinded the penalty.
Might be worth contacting whichever shop you spent most time in.
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"she still has to take regular stops because she gets out of breath"
Might be time to go electric. My sister on her buggy could shop quicker than an athlete on steroids. She's been told off for zooming around the Arndale more than once but then she always drove like that. She was a hooligan.
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>> Might be time to go electric. My sister on her buggy .....
It took long enough to persuade her to use a mobility walker.
She had a go on a mobility scooter a few years ago (ironically the same one Zero bought off me that belonged to my late father). Never again! She couldn't figure out the controls. Fortunately the only thing she ran into was me.
Besides, she's previously said she's not old enough and infirm enough to need a scooter just yet.
>> Might be worth contacting whichever shop you spent most time in.
Already have done. Mentioned above somewhere.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 6 Feb 18 at 02:02
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>> >> Might be worth contacting whichever shop you spent most time in.
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>> Already have done. Mentioned above somewhere.
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My point is rather than accept advise that it's worth appealing, you should say we were a customer in your store so I trust you will arrange for the ticket to be rescinded, it worked for my son.
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>> My point is rather than accept advise that it's worth appealing, you should say we
>> were a customer in your store so I trust you will arrange for the ticket
>> to be rescinded, it worked for my son.
>>
I did similar with ouir old Tesco store in Carmarthen some years ago; after several threatening letters from the parking agency, I sent my Clubcard back to Tesco with a letter saying I would no longer need it if this was how they treat their loyal customers etc.
Heard nothing more.
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Sorry, I had to hide this thread while my appeal was going through in case it jeopardised anything.
I'm pleased to say that they have cancelled the PCN.
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My first ever parking ticket - Robin O'Reliant
