Anyone know how the ANPR cameras work in supermarket carparks?
Parked in a deserted snow bound one today whilst visiting one of my shops. Was subsequently delayed and realised I had overstayed my welcome. Carpark had cameras on the entrance /exit reading front number plates coming in and reading back on way out.
If, just for an example, I had covered my rear number plate whilst I drove out the car park and then took cover off once out in the street away from the camera,
1. I assume the cameras take stills based on photographing every number plate it "sees" - so will it have taken a still of my car?
2. If not my car will have been registered going in but not out - assume they need a second photo to prove you have overstayed your welcome?
(and i know this is Scotland where the rules are still different and you don't need to say who was driving )
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Failed reads (in or out or both) are tagged (with time and date) for later manual interpretation.
In english, a bloke may or may not check the failed reads file, check the model and make of your car and make 4 out of 2 + 2
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 28 Feb 18 at 21:35
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so what would constitute a failed read? Or to put it another way, what triggers the camera to take a still? Movement? Programmed to look for registration plates?
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Good question. usually its set up to look for a plate sized block of specified colours with letters & numbers.
Not sure if it would read just a car with no plate and trigger an entry in the failed read file
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I may well be wrong; However, I thought that it took an unintelligent 'photograph' when triggered. It is after the image is taken that it is scanned for a licence plate, and any image where a licence plate is not found is marked to one side.
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I think it only takes a photo when it sees a plate, intelligent or not, otherwise it would be triggered by people with trollies, bikes, buggies etc.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 28 Feb 18 at 22:12
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I've sometimes wondered what would happen if you walked in holding a number plate.
Or walked out holding a spare rear plate leaving your car inside?
Or would it not trigger because you are not big enough to look like a car?
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I've often wondered what ANPR would make of it if I surrounded my number plate with a random variety of stick on letters and numbers of the same size and font, on a yellow background. Not actual real reg numbers, but close. Would be interesting to see if the ANPR could pick out the wood from the trees. Not sure I'd be doing anything illegal either, as I would be displaying my actual reg.
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At large Goods In yards there will often be a display board showing half a dozen registration numbers from the most recent lorries to enter the area.
I've seen a photo of one of these boards displaying a very rude word that it had picked up from a "show" plate mounted on the front of one of the lorries. Can't find it right now to link to, but I assume supermarket cameras would do something similar.
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Knowing who operated the parking cameras would be useful. ParkingEye is my guess. If there's anything at all.
My nearest Tesco Extra has signs about fines for over staying etc. But I don't think there's anything to do that. The nearby Jaguar garage parks car there (Staff) and they agreed with Tesco they'd pay money to a charity. Too many new cars to have them all registered.
Worst case for you Bobby... fine. Pay it early and it will be maybe £30.
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At Sainsbury's in Darlington their system shows you the number it has read. Nearly always gets the same digit wrong on Mrs H's plate. Yes the plate is reasonably clean and undamaged.
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>> I may well be wrong; However, I thought that it took an unintelligent 'photograph' when
>> triggered. It is after the image is taken that it is scanned for a licence
>> plate, and any image where a licence plate is not found is marked to one
>> side.
>>
At our local Sainsbury's the car number comes up on a display as you enter, so the recognition is real time.
8o)
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It's not actually a "parking fine" that's issued by these ANPR cowboys.
It's a "Parking Charge Notice" (or PCN for short).
Fines have to be paid.
PCN's are not backed up by law. Instead, they are invoices for a breach of contract. If the car park operator wants to force you to pay, they will need to take you to the civil court, which is costly and time-consuming.
There is loads of helpful info on forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163
Especially in this post - forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822
If you appeal, the key thing is not to identify the driver. Parking Eye, Smart Parking, or whoever can only obtain vehicle keeper details from the DVLA. So in turn, any correspondence you have with them, you only say things like vehicle keeper, and occupants. NEVER mention actual names. You have the Data Protection Act on your side.
Like I said, there is loads of helpful info in the above links.
These parking companies were recently debated in Parliament (2nd Feb).
parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41
Peter Wishart, a Scottish MP said the following about Smart Parking.
"That car park is operated by the John Wayne of all the cowboys, the appalling and loathed Smart Parking, a company that blights communities throughout Scotland"
These are some of the comments made by other MPs concerning the unregulated parking industry.
"Cowboy companies, signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued, rogue parking companies, bloodsuckers, absolute disgrace, rogue operators, unfair charges and notices, wilfully misleading, signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead, unreasonable, designed to trap innocent drivers, a curse, harassing, operating in a disgusting way, appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing, loathed, outrageous scam, dodgy practice, outrageous abuse, unscrupulous practices, the BPA is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert."
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 1 Mar 18 at 02:36
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You are so out of touch with that stuff Dave, and above is dangerous advice. Many people are now into serious money because of that outdated view. The Parking companies easily and cheaply get driver details from the DVLA.
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>> The Parking companies easily and cheaply get driver details from the DVLA.
How does DVLA know who was driving the vehicle at the time?
Like I said, these parking cowboys get KEEPER DETAILS, not driver details.
Don't take my word for it, take a look around the forum moneysavingexpert.com.
It's also mentioned on Smart Parking's website:-
"Registered keeper details are provided to Smart Parking by the DVLA when a vehicle has been parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of a private car park."
www.smartparking.com/pay-or-appeal-a-pcn
And also on Parking Eye's website:-
"ParkingEye is able to obtain the details for the registered keeper of a vehicle from the DVLA where that vehicle has been found to be in breach of the terms and conditions of parking in operation on site."
www.parkingeye.co.uk/motorist-information/frequently-asked-questions/
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 1 Mar 18 at 08:28
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One of the downsides of a company car, if I overstay anywhere the parking company gets registered keeper detail from DVLA, contacts the leasing company who pay the fine and charge me.
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>> >> The Parking companies easily and cheaply get driver details from the DVLA.
>>
>> How does DVLA know who was driving the vehicle at the time?
They dont have to, and have precedence in court. They can put a penalty charge against the keeper. They have done so and are doing so in increasing numbers.
Its exactly the same theory as ANPR speeding.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 1 Mar 18 at 08:36
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But hang on, you previously said:-
"The Parking companies easily and cheaply get driver details from the DVLA"
Now you're saying they don't.
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Now you are being pathetically pedantic as well as dangerously misleading. They get keeper details from the DVLA, no-one can get driver details from the DVLA because they don't know who is driving. With is why the KEEPER is prosecuted by the police and the KEEPER taken to court by the car park operators.
But You carry on with your dangerously outdated ignorance, as long as everyone else knows you are talking crap.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 1 Mar 18 at 09:03
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I E&W (NI?) the owner of the car is held liable for private parking invoices.
In Scotland the "supposed contract" is between the parking vultures & the driver.
There is no responsibility for the car owner to name a driver. Not knowing the driver
ensures that the owner cannot be taken to court for non-payment of the invoice. That said
a woman in Dundee "owed" £24,000 of unpaid invoice for parking in a space near her flat. She was known, photographed & finally bankrupted.
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>> That said a woman in Dundee "owed" £24,000 of unpaid invoice for parking in a space near
>> her flat. She was known, photographed & finally bankrupted.
>>
Link?
No good without a link!
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>>No good without a link!
tinyurl.com/y8cgwsxn
as requested
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>> Now you are being pathetically pedantic
When the shoe is on the other foot you don't like it, do you?
>> as well as dangerously misleading.
Like I said. Read the info on the forum I pointed to. Most of it is very helpful, not "dangerously misleading".
>> But You carry on with your dangerously outdated ignorance, as long as everyone else knows you are talking crap.
Sorry, I forgot. You're ALWAYS right, and everyone is always wrong. Still, if it make you feel happy, then fine. Carry on with your arrogant attitude.
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Not getting involved in/commenting on Zero/VX spat.
However on simple factual basis any advice that involves concealing ID of driver is wrong because, under Protection of Freedoms Act, the Keeper is liable unless he names the driver.
Equally, in England and Wales, the Parking Companies have, since the Supreme Court decision in Beavis clarified the legality of their penalties, been much more gung ho about using the small claims process. It's neither difficult nor expensive for them.
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Obviously at some point you will have to disclose driver details. I do get that.
What I forgot to mention was why you don't do it initially to the parking cowboy companies, and especially when you put an appeal in.
I can't recall the exact reason (it's on the moneysavingexpert.com website), but it does have something to do with helping when taking a failed appeal to POPLA (Parking On Private Land Appeals).
Plus if the parking cowboys don't have the driver details they cannot put matters into the hands of bailiffs. They can only put it in the hands of debt collectors who can only contact you by letter or phone (if of course you've given them the latter).
It's only "if" you are taken to court, you are then obliged to reveal driver details.
Like I've previously said, read through the post in the following link for all the info.
forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822
If you think the info is dangerously misleading, then go ahead and tell them.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 1 Mar 18 at 11:20
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If it gets to court then it's got expensive to resolve - i.e. you pay. If you park somewhere and fail to get a ticket then it's your own fault surely. You might not like the fact these parking companies charge large amounts but you chose to park there and not get a ticket for the length of stay. Surely cheaper to pay the £30 fee or whatever it is to begin with?
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>> Surely cheaper to pay the £30 fee or whatever it is to begin with?
Sometimes it's the principle though. These parking companies don't often play things by the book, so in turn why should we? Most, if not all of these cowboys are members of the BPA (British Parking Association) but they don't always follow their guidelines. e.g. incorrect or missing signage.
Most of these parking sharks rely on bully boy tactics to get their money. Threatening letters, etc. They don't expect people to stand up to them, they hope people will just pay.
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>>Most of these parking sharks rely on bully boy tactics to get their money.
They are, without doubt, awful.
But if you don't break the rules then they can't charge you. Without money they will go out of business. But people do still break the rules. And for every miscarriage there's a million valid charges.
Or if you refuse to go to any shop that uses them, then the shops will lose money and stop using them. But people don't because it doesn't bother enough people enough to inconvenience themselves by going elsewhere.
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In the last two years I visited 100 different railway stations, most of which had parking charges. If they had ANPR I paid, if they didn't I didn't pay. Mostly they are "pay by the day". and charge on average about 5 quid. I would have lashed out about 375 quid in fees, so I didn't pay. I got caught once and paid up at once to take advantage of the discount. 30 quid.
I do the crime, I pay the fine, I don't whine.
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>> I got caught once and paid up at once to take advantage of the discount. 30 quid.
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>> I do the crime, I pay the fine, I don't whine.
A £30 fine (or PCN) isn't so bad, considering what some of these parking shark companies are now charging. When however it's £60, or even more, I and plenty of others start whining about it.
I do hope the government shake them up a bit when they're looked at later this year. It might well put a stop to it, like it did to the rogue clampers a few years ago.
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>> Plus if the parking cowboys don't have the driver details they cannot put matters into
>> the hands of bailiffs. They can only put it in the hands of debt collectors
>> who can only contact you by letter or phone (if of course you've given them
>> the latter).
The MSE forum reads like something written by a parking obsessive. Frankly, Martin Lewis could do to take a look at it as it's in danger of causing him reputational damage.
In England and Wales the Protection of Freedoms Act makes the keeper liable. That means that, while there are loopholes around companies that cannot/do not obtain keeper details from DVLA, once the company has Keeper info they can pursue the keeper by means of debt collectors or by issuing small claims proceedings.
Strictly speaking bailiff action follows a court judgement and can lead to goods being seized. But that doesn't mean you won't, before any judgement, be doorstepped by an enforcement agent who's letterhead says he is also a bailiff.
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The MSE forum reads like something written by a parking obsessive.
Surely not, I'm shocked I tell you...
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>> The MSE forum reads like something written by a parking obsessive.
Well the advice given to me from MSE worked and got my PCN cancelled.
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Another parking fine query - Zero
