www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11112820
I still find it likely that my next car could be an electric one (hybrid or pure electric), but perhaps I will hang on longer and get a second hand one.
Wonder how much those batteries will actually cost to replace...
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Quote:
"It says running costs for the Nissan Leaf will be as low as 1p a mile."
Only if you ignore depreciation on a £28k car..
Assuming 100k miles over it's life, depreciation per mile is rather more than 1p.
Anyone who spends £28k on the car has a severe case of toomuchmoneyandnotenoughsense itis.
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I saw a 58-plate Mitsubishi i-MiEV yesterday, with decals all over it telling you what it was, like one of these:
www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/electric-vehicle-centre/
Strange thing is, it was on the A50/A453/M1 roundabout near East Midlands airport, which I am quite sure is further than the 80-mile range from the London demonstration centre.
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I suspect the main problem is being hit with £2000 + bills for a new battery every few years. If when i get rid of my Panda in a few years time electric cars are cheaper I may consider one as an electric car would suit my driving habbits a lot more than a petrol car.
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£2,000? You''ll be lucky - last estimate I saw was US$18,000 manufacturing cost for battery pack.
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According to Which?, the battery warranty runs out after 8 years or 100000 miles, after which you could be hit with a bill of £8000 to replace it. 'For that reason market experts say a Leaf could be worth as little as £3000 after 5 years'.
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For low milleage drivers me electric cars will probably be a bargain. I think they will find a niche for people that do 4k a year or less. However if they only last 8 years then that means this cars realisticallty have a short shelf life. Its not very enviromentaly friendly.
Also I am very sick of tired that the media never seem to get the point, where does the energy come from in our plug sockets? All they do is shift the polution out of the city.
Still I suspect electric cars are still greener providing they are not thrown away after 8 years.
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>> Also I am very sick of tired that the media never seem to get the
>> point, where does the energy come from in our plug sockets? All they do is
>> shift the polution out of the city.
From a long term point of view, if the energy comes from a combination of nuclear, wind, solar, wave power e.t.c then it will be greener. I would certainly prefer walking around a city and then getting home without having to blow lot's of black stuff out of my nose.
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>> According to Which?, the battery warranty runs out after 8 years or 100000 miles,
But how bad is the battery after 8 years? Is it totaly useless, or is it still useful for someone who only uses a car for 5 mile journeys twice a week? If the latter they could make quite a bargain for that kind of driver, I know it might seem daft to some to have a car in those circumstances but there are people about who do use a car like that.
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>> >> According to Which?, the battery warranty runs out after 8 years or 100000 miles,
>>
>> But how bad is the battery after 8 years? Is it totaly useless, or is
>> it still useful for someone who only uses a car for 5 mile journeys twice
>> a week?
I suppose it depends on how many times it's charged. If someone is only using it infrequently the battery could last well beyond the warranty, but the stumbling block is the initial £24000 price, although £5000 of that is a government grant.
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Sorry wasn't clear what I meant there, I meant that the 10 mile a week driver could buy a 5 year old electric car dirt cheap since it was almost worn out for most uses.
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"it was almost worn out for most uses. " The car should be fine. it's the battery that's clapped out. The average life on an ice car (so I read recently) is currently 14 years in the UK. While the figure is arguable, the car needs to reach approx 18 years old in order for it to be greener to scrap it than to keep it running. And here we are proposing to introduce cars which will effectively be scrap in 8 years. After all, would you spend thousands on a new battery pack?
The greenies no doubt think it's wonderful but, while it represents progress, it just doesn't represent enough progress. Battery technology still has a long way to go. Any aliens listening? You could make a fortune.
My ideal vehicle is a lawn mower that's powered by it's own clippings incidentally, thus solving three problems at one stroke. You put one on the shelves and I promise to buy it.
JH
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>> After all, would you spend thousands on a new battery pack?
>>
>>
I think that would very much depend on the condition of the rest of the car. If a new battery pack buys you another 8 years worth of motoring 8k vs 28k is a no brainer.
However if the electric motors will only last ten years then scrap it is. It depends on how expensive a replacement electric motor is too, it's not like there are many moving parts like ice.
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when these cars hit the streets big time the new crime will be battery theft
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>> when these cars hit the streets big time the new crime will be battery theft
>>
If, BB, if.
Would you buy one?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 28 Aug 10 at 20:14
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I would buy one as a commuter car either for the station or if I had a journey of upto 20 miles each way. Smart car/iQ size for one is ideal.
As has been written elsewhere for my 700+ mile trips give me a big diesel any day.
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me?
no
i like the smell of petrol especially real petrol on the overun
ooh i can smell it now.gorgeousk....
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Given that Garmin have just recalled 1.5 million nuvi GPS batteries, and this follows numerous laptop, mobile, camera, etc., recalls, even for very straightforward use battery technology seems suspect. These recalls apply to the newer battery types such as lithium ion, nickel halide, as used in the electric cars. Number one option for these cars should be a fire extinguisher capable of dealing with electric fires.
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IIRC, the Prius traction battery has an assembly of 168 batteries in 42 cells so if one or two are down, then they can be replaced. Or you could repalce the lot if you want to be shafted. It doesn't have a gearbox or clutch though, so overall it's a lot less likely to fail:)
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If the batteries were lead acid, accidents would clear themselves up! ;-)
My laptop manufacturer says that the Li-on batter is only good for 300 or so recharges! Hope this will not be the same for the cars!
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Comment on L-ION batteries
"A lithium-ion battery provides 300-500 discharge/charge cycles. The battery prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Frequent full discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery more often or use a larger battery. There is no concern of memory when applying unscheduled charges."
and
"Aging of lithium-ion is an issue that is often ignored. A lithium-ion battery in use typically lasts between 2-3 years"
Maybe the technology has improved since this was written but it doesn't look very good.
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>> >> After all, would you spend thousands on a new battery pack?
>> >>
>> >>
>> I think that would very much depend on the condition of the rest of the
>> car. If a new battery pack buys you another 8 years worth of motoring 8k
>> vs 28k is a no brainer.
>>
Ahhh... but if a new battery costs £8k and the car is only worth £5k and you can buy a secondhand one for £5k...
No-one except a numpty is going to spend £8k on an 8 years old car to keep it going if a viable replacement costs less. Especially if the spending of £8k on an 8 year car does nothing to its second hand value...
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A far more practical solution - both from weight/environment etc is to use electricity to drive a motor mounted outside the car and wind up a BIG spring (or flywheel) mounted in the car) and use that to drive the car..
Anyway as most of the rare earths needed to produce hi tech batteries are mine din China and they placed an embargo on exports.. it ain't going to happen until new sources of supply come on stream - and metal prices rise a lot to fund those...
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Madf - Yes but surely the 8 year old £5K car is going to need a new battery too? If it doesn't it soon will or it has had a new one and won't be on sale for £5K.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Sun 29 Aug 10 at 19:26
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I think this arguement is heading in the direction of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" :-)
JH
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..."A far more practical solution - both from weight/environment etc is to use electricity to drive a motor mounted outside the car and wind up a BIG spring (or flywheel) mounted in the car) and use that to drive the car....."
Yeah ! OK if you want drive in straight lines with no deviation; the gyroscopic effect would make going around corners difficult.
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I think this arguement is heading in the direction of "How many angels can dance
on the head of a pin?" :-)
Apparently:
Angels are pure intelligences, not material, but limited, so that they have location in space, but not extension.. The answer, therefore, is that an infinity of angels can be located on the head of a pin, since they do not occupy any space there"
Thought you would like to know :-)
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Nah, I don't think that's right but my quantum physics isn't up to disproving it. It might be better after a beer. :-)
JH
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>> Ahhh... but if a new battery costs £8k and the car is only worth £5k
>> and you can buy a secondhand one for £5k...
>>
>> No-one except a numpty is going to spend £8k on an 8 years old car
>> to keep it going if a viable replacement costs less. Especially if the spending of
>> £8k on an 8 year car does nothing to its second hand value...
>>
How old is the secondhand car ? Only a numpty would swap an owned from new car for an unknown secondhand that was due a replacement battery...Would you spend £3k for an extra two years motoring ?
This is all hypothetical until these things come on stream but I wouldn't be tempted to lose £28k over 8 years. My post above was based on an electric car being comparible with an ice. 28k for an electric car or 28k on a big diesel. Either way they will both be worthless in eight years time but which would I rather have for that time ?
That really sums up why I, as a private motorist, refuse to pump a big lump sum in any future car. Until my current car either gives up the ghost (which could be why we are seeing biofuel in diesel amounts increase) or the gubmint show their hand on future taxation I refuse to commit to the unknown.
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>> >> According to Which?, the battery warranty runs out after 8 years or 100000 miles,
>>
>> But how bad is the battery after 8 years?
LiIon batteries gradually lose the ability to hold charge. So you could keep them until they are near useless, but your range reduces, so the point at which you discard them depends on your usage and you needs. In practice a used battery that has 80% capacity might be of no use to a commuter, but it can still be sold on to people who need power storage. After all, if the battery only has 80% capacity that does not really matter if the battery is stationary e.g. being used to store cheap off peak electricity. So batteries that are not suitable for cars may still have resale value.
My guess is that over the next few years we will see big advances in battery technology. We saw huge leaps due to the demand from mobile phone users. Once there is a market, companies can get finance for speculative research.
But, if we all move to electric cars, the governent will seek ways to replace the revenue lost from petrol sales. Road charging anyone? Or maybe the beggers will just tax us on a per breath basis.
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If I understand this correctly the manufacturer is willing to take responsibility for the battery for eight years. The 100k miles is a reassurance but in the commuter market it's likely that time will 'catch' first.
Ok, the OEM replacement cost TODAY is silly money. The gamble is how much will a pattern battery cost in 2018.
If my car use was solely the current 10 mile round commute (or longer to somewhere with a guaranteed charging point) I might be tempted to take a punt.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 29 Aug 10 at 20:51
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I might be tempted to take a punt.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> make your mind up ;-)
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My experience of life says it's always best not to hurry into new technology. Let someone else buy it first and solve the problems.
See: Windows Vista.
Early mobile phones.
The first Prius.
Concorde.
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>> My experience of life says it's always best not to hurry into new technology. Let
>> someone else buy it first and solve the problems.
>>
>> See: Windows Vista.
>> Early mobile phones.
>> The first Prius.
>> Concorde.
>>
+ DPF, DMF.
At least common rail systems are reliable if not abused by missfueling them. I will stick to diesel power. At least I can leave home with a full tank and get almost anywhere in the UK without refuelling.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 30 Aug 10 at 09:51
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Cost of electric cars - madf
