In have been doing quite a bit of research and reading up of EVs with view to potentially switching in the near future.
But was surprised to see that so many of them come as RWD with top of the range being AWD.
I guess they are maybe more suited to EV underpinnings but I take it the whole ice/snow issues with RWD are no longer a thing?
Also, with the torque and acceleration these EVs have I could imagine a fair few ending up in ditches and middle of roundabouts!
And just a random observation, the BYD Attorney 3 Evo, which is a Qashqai size EV, had 0-60 acceleration of 3.9s! Thankfully it’s AWD but that’s just frightening!!
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The original rationale for favouring FWD was that any tendency for understeer would be corrected by the driver turning harder into the corner. With RWD snap oversteer needed a driver with both very fast reactions and a high level of skill.
With many/most cars fitted with traction control etc I suspect:
- driver skill levels are less a consideration
- better vehicle packaging - no need for driveshaft
- traction benefit with weight transfer under acceleration
- possibly cost savings if CV joints etc no longer needed
- battery weight allows weight distribution to be optimised
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>> The original rationale for favouring FWD was that any tendency for understeer would be corrected
>> by the driver turning harder into the corner.
I think it was more to do with packaging.
With RWD snap oversteer needed a driver
>> with both very fast reactions and a high level of skill.
Up to a point, but people actually used to consider conditions and the possibility of skidding as you probably recall. I had a Cortina 2.3 for a while and the slightest prod on the accelerator in a corner would have you swapping ends if there was a trace of moisture present.
>>
>> With many/most cars fitted with traction control etc I suspect:
>>
>> - driver skill levels are less a consideration
>> - better vehicle packaging - no need for driveshaft
>> - traction benefit with weight transfer under acceleration
>> - possibly cost savings if CV joints etc no longer needed
>> - battery weight allows weight distribution to be optimised
Some good points. Add in tyre and suspension improvements. I'm not capable of going fast enough to find the limits on our modern cars including the two with RWD. On my '65 Oxford I'd find them every time it rained.
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The last rear wheel drive BMW I had that struggled in the snow was an E39 5 series in the late ‘90s; presumably traction / stability control and tyre / chassis design has improved massively in that time. That car, a 525i, had, I think, 192 bhp. Subsequent generations have had far more power and yet traction hasn’t ever been an issue. Even the i5 with its instant torque, unnecessary power and RWD was absolutely fine in the Malvern Hills during a snowy period a few years ago. because I haven’t ever really had a problem in a RWD car for years. Indeed, as you have observed, the switch to RWD has led to more RWD models available. Take the Audi A6, a model that’s been front wheel drive or Quattro since its inception in the ‘90s. It’s now rear wheel drive and, based on a recent test drive, better for it IMO. Almost didn’t feel like an Audi to drive anymore :)
As ever with these things, it’s as much about the driver as the car, though the safety systems must help. But the news isn’t full of stories about quick EVs ending up in ditches, so mad that it seems that a moderns supermini is quicker to accelerate than a supercar of not that any years ago, make the most of the cheap power available! A friend of mine, in his 30s, has just taken delivery of a BMW i4 M60 - 600bhp in what is basically a middle management 3 series hatch!
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>> The last rear wheel drive BMW I had that struggled in the snow was an
>> E39 5 series in the late ‘90s; presumably traction / stability control and tyre /
>> chassis design has improved massively in that time. That car, a 525i, had, I think,
>> 192 bhp. Subsequent generations have had far more power and yet traction hasn’t ever been
>> an issue.
Bit later than that, the winters of 2009/10 and 2010/11 were a bit of a nghtmare in my Merc and colleagues BMWs and Jaguars. I was in our office down south when it snowed and we all had to be pushed off the car park. I put All Seasons on the Merc and it never snowed again in the time I had it.
EVs seem to vary - we have a FWD Gen2 Kona driven by daughter who lives on a hill in a semi-rural area. Got it in Dec 24 and I put a set of CrossClimates on it straight away. It has a snow mode and in the odd bit of snow and ice we've had it's been fine. I've seen a video of a gen1 Kona (known for their brutal power application) struggle to get going on a hill even with CrossClimates on - solution was to bury the throttle and the traction control got the car going. I gather a big issue with RWD EVs is when they whack on the regen that can spin the car.
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>>
>> Bit later than that, the winters of 2009/10 and 2010/11 were a bit of a
>> nghtmare in my Merc and colleagues BMWs and Jaguars. I was in our office down
>> south when it snowed and we all had to be pushed off the car park.
>> I put All Seasons on the Merc and it never snowed again in the time
>> I had it.
>>
>> EVs seem to vary - we have a FWD Gen2 Kona driven by daughter who
>> lives on a hill in a semi-rural area. Got it in Dec 24 and I
>> put a set of CrossClimates on it straight away. It has a snow mode and
>> in the odd bit of snow and ice we've had it's been fine. I've seen
>> a video of a gen1 Kona (known for their brutal power application) struggle to get
>> going on a hill even with CrossClimates on - solution was to bury the throttle
>> and the traction control got the car going. I gather a big issue with RWD
>> EVs is when they whack on the regen that can spin the car.
>>
My 2004 (S211?) e class was alright in the snow - certainly better than the e39 BMW despite being an auto and diesel, and it coped okay with moderate snow on the South Downs. It also had stability control, unlike the BMW. But the 2005 BMW 5 series was better again, and certainly never ground to a halt. Perhaps we didn’t have enough snow though to truly test either though!
I’d be surprised if any manufacturer has designed a regen system that’d override the stability control and spin the car though; that sounds strange. Mine’s always in adaptive regen, which uses nav data and the front facing camera to slow the car to suit the road and traffic ahead, and it operates seamlessly. The regen in Tesla that preceded it worked okay as well, but it was nowhere near as clever as the set up in the BMW. Though I think Tesla wanted you to use one pedal mode, which I don’t like.
I struggle to see how you could spin mine in any normal, or even press-on driving, without actively turning off the traction control and driving like a lunatic. it’s difficult enough just to get it to lose traction when the driver aids are switched off. Tyres are included in my lease, but with the downside that they won’t replace tyres that have more than 3mm of tread. So I have had occasion to accelerate the wear, and it’s harder than you’d expect to unstick the rear, even in Sport plus mode with DSC deactivated. Though I’m sure at speed physics, 2.2 tonnes and RWD could prompt a replay of an accident I had at 18 in my dads 525i in 1990… I certainly learned what lift off oversteer was that day…
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talking of Tesla, I see they are doing their silly cheap 2 year lese deals on the Model 3 again
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2 year deal, 12 months down and 2 years of £200 pm
£7200
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>> 2 year deal, 12 months down and 2 years of £200 pm
>>
>> £7200
>>
Very cheap motoring, as it won’t need a service and is unlikely to need any tyres in 2 years of normal use. Charge at home and run it for a few pence a mile and it’d be under £300 a month all-in I reckon. It does remind me a little of the Mk3 Cavalier though in profile, and I guess occupies the same space in the market. Though, based on mine, the Cavalier had more soft touch plastics in its interior… ;)
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>> Take the Audi A6, a model that’s been front wheel drive or Quattro since its inception in
>> the ‘90s. It’s now rear wheel drive and, based on a recent test drive, better
>> for it IMO. Almost didn’t feel like an Audi to drive anymore :)>>
Sorry to hear that. I had a FWD 2.8l V6 A6 auto for ten years. My job involved many home visits in all weathers. Snowy country roads were a doddle and it would always claw itself up any uncleared snowy side street thanks to its weighty engine and 80Kg ZF 5HP gearbox over the front wheels. All on 'normal' tyres, albeit with a decent tread. Judicious use of the manual handbrake could enable a graceful 180degree turn where otherwise a 'three-point' would have been necessary - virtually impossible with an EPB!
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Funny that. I had a Saab 900 SE 94-96 and it was great in snow. Obviously due to the badge.
Our Saab 96 had been similar - in fairness that had the Taunus V4 practically ahead of the front axle.
Out 1991 Audi 100, which I had assumed was essentially similar to the A6 that replaced it, was pretty useless with snow. It had ABS, not sure about traction control - whatever it had didn't help.
We lived at about 900ft in the Pennines at the time and we usually got at least one decent fall of snow each year.
The rear wheel drive cars were a mixed bag. But they all responded to a couple of concrete flags or a bag of sand or two in the boot.
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Without doubt, out the box back in the day, the best car by far was the mini. Astonishingly capable in snow.
I was in Buxton with the beemer when the beast from the east struck. its dynamic capabilities in making progress in snow was equally astonishing, as was its complete inability to shed the progress down hill. Luckily the 4 wheel drive and dynamics was good enough to steer/power it out of trouble.
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>> Without doubt, out the box back in the day, the best car by far was the mini. Astonishingly capable in snow. >>
Back in the same day, the grown-up Mini, otherwise known as the 1100, was similarly good in snow. FWD was a pretty new innovation in the early 60s, and while touring the States in our 1100 we amused ourselves by showing those foreigners what was under the bonnet. They were already gobsmacked by just how small the car was. The Canadian I bought it from had got it for rallying on ice using studded tyres.
Some local diehards referred to it as a 'p1sspot', preferring the notion that if one collided with anything there was more protection - which has more recently become standard practice. I also knew of a South African who could sometimes be found jump-starting Chevies and Buicks with his Mini, which had twice as many volts in its battery.
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>> Without doubt, out the box back in the day, the best car by far was
>> the mini. Astonishingly capable in snow.
>>
...still managed to put mine through 360 degrees on a damp corner in Sonning, though. (Luckily there was nothing moving the other way!).
Whilst far from definitive, my most impressive performances in snow have all been in RWD cars. My Chevette managed to get me to Watendlath near Keswick for a Christmas session in deep snow (it's quite a climb via Ashness Bridge), though it did have a heavy barrel of beer in the back.
The same car managed to do Kirkstone Pass in deep snow, and we eventualay found, when reaching the Patterdale end, that it had been closed whilst we were traversing.
The Granada I had performed pretty well in snow. I failed once on a hill on the commute home from work due to all other cars in front bailing out. Once everyone had given up, I sailed up in second gear.
OTOH, the Mondeo I had once retired didn't like snow at all. Picking my daughter up from Leeds for Christmas it refused her local hill, and I had to park at the bottom and walk. It didn't really like it on the somewhat flatter terrain, until, having read the handbook, I turned off ESC, which it somewhat counter-intuitively recommended in snow.
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>> Without doubt, out the box back in the day, the best car by far was
>> the mini. Astonishingly capable in snow.>>
Well, I've got some doubt. Back in the 60s in hilly West Yorkshire I remember my father's VW Beetle with its tall thin wheels was much better than my mate's mother's Mini with its short fat wheels on thick soggy wet snow. (It had dreadful oversteer, though!)
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>> Back in the 60s in hilly West Yorkshire I remember my father's VW Beetle with its tall thin wheels was much better than my mate's mother's Mini with its short fat wheels on thick soggy wet snow. (It had dreadful oversteer, though!) <<
But the Beetle's engine was at the back, John !
Still in Canada, I remember a trip from Edmonton 200 miles to Jasper in February 1964, in a friend's oldish Beetle (before I got a car). It followed an uncontrollably sinusoidal track along any road, because of worn steering and that rear engine. One just had to let it do as it liked.
Last edited by: Andrew-T on Sat 20 Jun 26 at 17:43
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The old mini was great in snow when I lived in Aberdeen in the 70’s. The limiting factor was the snow depth but anything within the ground clearance was fair game.
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A car that did better than I expected was a Volvo 360. A torquey 2litre engine and gearbox on the back axle, it had a good weight distribution. Didn’t deliberately go out in the snow but if caught out never failed to get home without winter tyres, which many people round here fit.
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An experiment in an Avis Audi A3 hire car with an EPB while visiting some farms in Spain more than a few years ago now proved that it is possible to use the EPB to flick the back of the car round…. You have to pull and hold the switch up - if you do that then when you release the switch it reverts to the handbrake off position :)
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Surely the different weight distribution in an EV created by a heavy battery amidships may have something to do with it ?
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another benefit of RWD is that some of the EVs have decent sized frunks!
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A frunk may also allow design for lighter and more effective crash protection as structures will not be constrained by the need to provide space for all the odd shaped ancillaries fitted to a modern engine.
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>> another benefit of RWD is that some of the EVs have decent sized frunks!
Nope, none of them have a "frunk" that can be described as "decent sized".
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well depends what you mean by decent sized - about 100l, ideal for firing in all the "just in case " stuff you normally carry in the boot.
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Not much slower than my Seal, which thankfully is also AWD. My Mrs has an Atto3 with a single motor and its plenty adequate as it is.
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how do you like the Seal? My daughter has the PHEV BYD Seal udmi and loves it and is really taken by BYD.
Of course its on a PCP as many cars are now so doubt there will be any long term ownership involved.
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Yea I am very much enjoying it so far. Its very quiet on the move and feels very solid indeed, not a squeak or rattle to be heard. Compared to my old Mazda6, its like the starship enterprise, just feels a generation ahead tech wise. The power is intoxicating :-) but now that I've got all that out of my system, I spend most of my time tootling about in ECO mode. More relaxing this way.
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When I lift the bonnet on the MG5 there is a cover over everything. Well, nothing much at all really. But I don't need the storage except I put the charge cable there. They always move it away at service so maybe it's not the best place for it LOL
I remember reading (maybe when I had the Ampera) that people managed to replace the cover with a plastic storage box for all the bits and bobs, as Bobby said.
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yeah - google MGS6 frunk decent use of the space!
Pity there are so many niggles with the car as it looks value for money.
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Some of you guys have a strange idea what "decent size" is.
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I bet it’s bigger than the storage space you have in your frunk?
It’s a decent space for somewhere that there is not normally any space.
That better????
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>> I bet it’s bigger than the storage space you have in your frunk?
>> It’s a decent space for somewhere that there is not normally any space.
>> That better????
Ah, you are the one writing trumps speeches.
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LOL I thought he just made them up as he went along!
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Never mind frunks, why are most glove compartments so wretchedly small?
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 19 Jun 26 at 10:08
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>> Never mind frunks, why are most glove compartments so wretchedly small?
>>
My pet hate too. I'm sure they used to be much bigger back in the day.
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The glovebox in the Subaru curtsy car we have at present isn't stupid small but is filled by a handbook the size of a church bible.
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>> The glovebox in the Subaru curtsy car we have at present isn't stupid small but
>> is filled by a handbook the size of a church bible.
>>
Same with my Swift, being a massive sad sack I actually weighed it, 1475 grams!
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>> is filled by a handbook the size of a church bible.
Probably the last hard copy handbook you will have. Most new cars now have on line handbook.
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>> Same with my Swift, being a massive sad sack I actually weighed it, 1475 grams!
>>
and my Suzuki Swace. Sack containing a few manuals/service book - circa1400 grams!
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>>The glovebox in the Subaru curtsy car we have at present isn't stupid small but is filled by a handbook the size of a church bible
Tell me about it!!
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>> The glovebox in the Subaru curtsy car we have at present isn't stupid small but
>> is filled by a handbook the size of a church bible.
Does a curtsy car lower for easier access when you pull up at the side of a road, like a bus :)
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>> why are most glove compartments so wretchedly small?
B'cos few peops wear gloves these days.
:)
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Surely you wear driving gloves Dog.
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I did have a pair of those string-back leather jobs back in the day, but now I have a leather steering wheel :)
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Spoilt my mental image of you. Flat cap
And driving gloves.
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Baseball cap more like it, although I did wear a white silk scarf when I had an MGB Roadster.
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I'm sure they would be big enough if you only put gloves in them. It's usually all the other stuff !
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I recall several of my early cars had parcel shelves, although the glove box is handy for Werther's.
Last edited by: bathtub tom on Fri 19 Jun 26 at 15:11
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Do saloons with parcel shelves still exist?
Various Citroens we've had, one hatch and several estates, had rigid removable parcels shelf but the Skodas all had retractable tonneau covers whose sole purpose was to cover things.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 19 Jun 26 at 15:21
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>> Do saloons with parcel shelves still exist? >>
How many 'saloons' are produced now ? Most are hatches or SUVs or the like ? Do you mean what used to be called a 'sedan' ? But any parcel shelf would be at the rear, nowhere near a glovebox !
Last edited by: Andrew-T on Fri 19 Jun 26 at 17:43
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If by parcel shelf you mean that shelf that fills the gap between the top of the rear seats and the bottom of the rear screen then yes, my BMW has one. As do all saloons I expect. Audi, BMW, Mercedes and of course Tesla (the Model 3, despite looking like a hatch is a saloon, will all sell you a mass market saloon in various sizes. If you want something a little more exclusive then Bentley and Rolls Royce have offerings as well :)
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Do you keep cushions or box of hankies on the parcel shelf?
Or is there no room for them with your big surface mounted Goodmans Speakers??
Last saloon I had was a Mark 2 Escort!
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>> Do you keep cushions or box of hankies on the parcel shelf?
No. There is a collection of hats.
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Always amuses me how much 'stuff' some keep in there cars, the only extras apart from what comes with the car I keep are a first aid kit, fire extinguisher and a demister pad.
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30 years ago I found out my sons were putting their "Krooklock" on the rear shelf.
A sudden stop and a few kilos of steel could have had consequences.
Put it on the floor or boot was the advice.
I live on a hill it gets that bit steeper at my house and, in the really cold/snowy conditions RWD cars often came to a stop. Some FWD cars could get past.
That said, 2 people further up the road have bought Fiats for many years, mostly Pandas. He seems to be able make it up another 100 yards to where the road levels out.
Driver ability? Lightweight car?
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"That said, 2 people further up the road have bought Fiats for many years, mostly Pandas. He seems to be able make it up another 100 yards to where the road levels out.
Driver ability? Lightweight car?"
Skinny tyres.
It would be mid 80s. We had a massive dump of snow overnight and i was starting work at 06.00.
I had a recently aquired XR2 and SHMBO had an Avenger Estate. Trying to get the XR2, despite a massive amount of shoveling was impossible. The Avenger aced it and was primary transport until the snow started to disappear. The reason was that the wide XR2 tyres just created a dam infront of them whilst the skinny Avenger tyres cut through the snow with no issues.
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Pleased to report there’s nothing on the parcel shelf, or indeed in the glovebox other than the very slim manual! The one and only car to have rear aftermarket rear mounted Goodmans speakers was my first car - a red Fiat Uno. The BMW Harman Kardon sound system is good enough for me, though not a patch on the Bowers and Wilkins (branded…) set-up in the Merc. The unbranded Tesla system was in between the two, sound quality wise. Impressive given the project point of the car though I thought :)
This is only the 4th saloon I’ve ever had as a proper car - the others being a late 1990s BMW 5 series, an early 2000s Lexus IS200 and the Tesla Model 3. So all rear wheel drive. But I have had a few e30 BMW ‘coupes ’ which were really just 2 door saloons, an Audi A8 which was a quattro and now have an A4, as short term fun/nostalgia/pointless/ebay purchases. I think my preferred format is still an estate, though a convertible runs it close, and rear wheel drive.
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Rear wheel drive - Terry
