What's the general concensus regarding tyre rotation? The car I use for commuting is front wheel drive and when I take it in for its second service I was going to ask the dealer to swap the rears on to the front, as the rears will eventually have to be binned through deterioration through age rather than wearing out.
As it is advisable when fitting new tyres to put them at the rear however, would it be detrimental to handling to put the as new rears on the front?
Any thoughts?
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As a FWD car uses the front wheels to drive, brake and steer I would have thought that the better pair of tyres should be on the front. However, I understand that the official view is that the tyres with the better tread should be on the back, even with FWD.
Standing by for confirmation if this or perhaps verbal abuse
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I did find this, not fully explained, on another site but not the dark side!
If you replace only two, the new tires should generally go on the rear wheels, regardless of whether the vehicle is FWD, RWD, or AWD. It is important to maintain maximum traction at the rear wheels to ensure stability. Putting new tires on the front and nearly worn-out tires on the rear wheels of any vehicle is a recipe for instability. It is thus very important to avoid dramatic differences in tread wear, front-to-rear.
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That's my understanding too. Verbal abuse is optional. Did you tick the box and pay the supplement?
John
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after much thought i too am indeed of the opinion new should go on back if only 2 fitted
i dont go in for tyre rotation either
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Wait 'till the front ones need replacing. Get new tyres on, put these on the back, old rear ones on the front.
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>> Wait 'till the front ones need replacing. Get new tyres on, put these on the
>> back, old rear ones on the front.
>>
Thats what I do, many reputable tyre replacement outfits will refuse to fit a pair of new tyres to the front.
www.tyresafe.org/news-and-events/detail/motorists-get-their-tyres--back-to-front--/
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 24 Nov 10 at 15:43
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>>>>However, I understand that the official view is that the tyres with the better tread should be on the back, even with FWD.
As far as I remember that was the opinion of the majority when this subject was aired on the other side a couple of years ago. I think there was also mention of some tyre fitting outfits actually refusing to put the tyres with the better tread on the front.
Best tyres to the front on my FWD, and I'm buying two next week.
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I rotated the tyres on the CC3 at 12,000 miles and all four needed replacing at 24,000.
Three advantages:
Rotating at 12,000 meant I could ignore the tread depth/back or front debate because there was still plenty of tread all round.
Some retailers offer a little extra discount for buying four tyres instead of two.
Easy to keep same manufacturer and tread pattern all round.
Disadvantage:
Had to pull out the cash for four tyres in one go.
Last edited by: Iffy on Wed 24 Nov 10 at 15:46
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I swap front tyres to rear and rears to front every 6,000 miles on my Panda 4x4. It's recommended by Fiat for all Pandas. It's best, in the case of 4x4s with viscous couplings, to keep tyre wear fairly even all round the car, another reason to do this.
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"ask the dealer to swap the rears on to the front, as the rears will eventually have to be binned through deterioration through age rather than wearing out."
This is what I do on our low mileage Galaxy that wears its fronts out. The OE rears would still be on otherwise.
On my Vectra I don't bother rotating as the higher mileage it does doesn't create the age problem for the rears.
When I had a RWD Mercedes I didn't bother rotating as wear was fairly even front and rear.
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Seen as everyone's opting for the sensible option...
It doesn't matter what axle you put the new ones on. Whatever axle the old tyres are on, will often be the first end to let go in extreme cornering (swerving to avoid a fox?).
If front end's more grippy, that often means rear end's going to slide first. Which is completely fine.
So instead of not being able to steer round the fox, you'll steer too much and spin and whack the fox side on with the rear wheel.
Which is cheaper to replace than a front bumper.
:-)
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Front wheels all the time for me. FWD, steer with front wheels, I think more braking goes to front as well?
Don't think its coincidence fronts wear out quicker as they are doing more work and therefore need the tread better.
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>> Don't think its coincidence fronts wear out quicker as they are doing more work and
>> therefore need the tread better.
>>
Untill you oversteer backwards into the scenery.
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This subject always gets some comments, for the record i put new tyres on the drive axle, though i normally rotate regularly to even out the wear and replace all 4.
I wonder what the official recommendation is when the motorised washing machine driver buys 2 bargain basement carp tyres to match up to the remaining premium pair only half worn, arn't all tyres the same?
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 24 Nov 10 at 21:02
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Doesn't the ABS stop the wheels from locking up anyway?
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>> Doesn't the ABS stop the wheels from locking up anyway?
>>
Not if they are going sideways.
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thing is every car and every corner of every car is different
gone are the days when an anglia with its 450x12 tyres could be swapped around to confuse pc noggin
every car tyre i look at these days can tell a story about the car and the driver and how the car is used including slip angles ,points of adhesion and even if the last driver was a braker at the last minute type or a two wheel specialist
tyres save lives why mess for a happorth of rubber?
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A while back when I looked at the websites of two of the largest makers they both said always put your new tyres on the back of RWD or FWD cars.
I accept their advice and my new tyres will go on the back.
4WD vehicles as was mentioned may need to have four tyres with about the same tread.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSz7cm6MwH0
VBH says new tyres on back
www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA
www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=8032005184616&lang=EN
Even your friendly Kwikfit
www.kwik-fit.com/tyre-rotation.asp
Wiki item says
"Current thinking stresses the desirability of keeping the best tires on the rear wheels of the vehicle, whether it is front, or rear wheel drive. The reason for this is that if the rear wheels lose grip before the front ones, an oversteer condition will occur, which is harder to control than the corresponding understeer which will happen if a front wheel is lost. This is also the case if a tire blows out, so the intuitive belief that the front steering/driving tires need to be the best quality is not actually the case.
In some cases (for example, BMW), automobile manufacturers may recommend performing no tire rotation at all. Additionally, some vehicles are designed (or retrofitted) with front and rear wheels of different sizes and unidirectional rotation treads, making rotation impossible. "
Of course subject to what the tyre fitting company will do you can fit two new tyres on the front and ignore what major tyre makers say.
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>> Doesn't the ABS stop the wheels from locking up anyway?
>>
NO!
ABS is controlled by sensors to each wheel (some systems used one sensor in the diff)
the ABS is triggered by a difference in rotation speed between the sensors, IF all sensors read the same, then the ABS will not trigger.
this will happen at times of low friction between tyres and road surface, ie, on snow, ice or water lying on the road.
Sometimes (as has happened to me) the ABS will trigger, then the wheels will lock, and remain locked until you release the brake.... (the ABS ECU thinks you are stationary...)
When it happened to me, I was on the M25, in heavy rain (4 mm at least on all tyres) when an accident happened ahead, and the road lit up with brakelights...
... I managed to stop (unlike some others) by Cadence braking.
Maybe the ABS would have stopped me if i had let it try a 2nd time, maybe not, but I went into auto-mode (years of driving cars and bikes without ABS) and it worked..
IMHO on ice you may as well forget you have ABS.
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The only rotation my tyres get is when the wheels are going round! I've never found it necessary to swap the wheels front to rear. As far as I'm concerned the only authority on this matter is the car manufacturer and it doesn't mention anything about it in my Owners Manual.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 25 Nov 10 at 07:40
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>> As far as I'm concerned
>> the only authority on this matter is the car manufacturer and it doesn't mention anything
>> about it in my Owner's Guide.
>>
I beg your pardon. My Owner's Guide recommends swapping the wheels front to rear every 5000 to 6000 miles to make sure the tyres wear evenly and last longer. That's all.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 25 Nov 10 at 07:55
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Nice one L'Es - that was my thought when I read the title.
We have had another long thread on the subject of which wheels do the steering, which Number Cruncher clinched with his demonstration that ALL wheels steer equally.
The simple way of seeing this is to imagine a car with rear wheels on castors, like a supermarket trolly. It would be unsteerable, because the front wheels would be unable to pull the car round a corner without an equal contribution from the back.
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The only trouble with the argument that you should put the best tyres on the rear of a FWD car is that if you apply power in a corner, the rear is unlikely to slip as the front tyres will be loaded and turning..
I always rotate so the best tread patterns are on front and replace in sets of 4 when depth is 3mm...- or just before winter..
I rarely corner hard enough in wet or snow to have rear end breakaways - indeed in snow the issue is keeping enough front wheel grip to keep going in a straight line.
And in the wet, on our country roads, a fast cornering speed means you need the telephone number of the local farmer to pull you out of the hedge with his tractor... As for rwd braking the Yaris has rear drums.. nuff said..
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I dug into the dim and distant depth of my memory and remembered the one occasion (in about 1966) when I swapped my wheels front to rear. I went for a quick run up the bypass to check that the fronts (previously on the rear) were adequately balanced. At the roundabout at the end of the bypass, taken at high speed as usual, I came to grief and went off the road. I realised that the wear pattern of tyres depends on what corner they're on because of the different camber angle of the various wheels. Swapping the wheels alters the contact of the tyres with the road and necessitates that the tyres be run in again. I put the wheels back to their original position and since then I've never tried swapping wheels front to rear. Once bitten, twice shy.
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If you have FWD car with space saver spare wheel,
In each service front should be swapped with rear for even tread wear.
If all tyres have same wear, question of fitting better tyre on rear does not arise.
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>>>Number Cruncher clinched with his demonstration that ALL wheels steer equally.
Hmmm... but front tyres on a FWD wear about twice as fast as rears because overall they do more work.... yes??
Over 12.5K mls my C5 fronts are down to 4mm and rears 6mm... from about 7-8mm new I guess. Just about to swap front to rear to even out the wear so I can buy a set of 4 when needed.... so I can change brand and have all 4 matching. Also it will give me the best tread on the front for this winter which will make the most of my Snowmotion traction control.... ESP can look after the back end.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 25 Nov 10 at 10:09
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>>ESP can look after the back end.
going sideways?
Can anyone point me to a YouTube item saying best tyres on the front ?
Can anyone point me to any authoritative source saying the same ?
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>>>going sideways?
ESP cuts in even if it tries to get a few inches out of line. I'll steer the front and ESP can have the rear.
>>>Can anyone point me to a YouTube item saying best tyres on the front ? Can anyone point me to any authoritative source saying the same ?
Owned 60+ cars over 36yrs. FWD, RWD, 4WD, front engine , rear engine. Driven on tyres from rubbish ditchfinders/remoulds to ultimate premium brands... at tread depths from 1mm-10mm.... on crossply/radial mixes too (both the right and wrong way round).
I rarely run tyres under 3mm... I can already feel the wet/greasy road grip is much reduced now my fronts are down to 4mm.
As GB said above what if the new tyres are rubbish budget ditchfinders with apalling wet road grip and the originals premium tyres with exceptional wet road ability? If you go with the new to rear then this rigid advice may lead to serious wet road imbalance/oversteer.
Really do know what I want by now :-)
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>> Owned 60+ cars ............
Good memory or good records?
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I'm pretty sure its now at 67. If asked without notes I struggle to remember more than about 50 at one time. So yes a nerdish moment had me list them all for the sake of complete accuracy.
Have images of 43 older ones in a file on the desktop just waiting for those guys to finish the driveway work.
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This could go round and round for ever. I still maintain that I'd prefer not to lose grip at either end but if one of them has to let go first I'd rather deal with unexpected oversteer than unplanned understeer. But it may be different for others. So be it.
For what it's worth, when I was but a lad and was being given a company car for the first time along with a couple of others young guys, we were sent to Snetterton race track for a course in skid control. Apparently the company managed to get a lower insurance premium if they could prove that its drivers had all passed that course.
The vehicles used were Chevette Ecosse 2.3 litre fairly hot for the time RWD hatchbacks. They were fitted with normal road tyres at the front and racing slicks at the back which were over inflated to further lessen their grip. We were then sent out with instructors on to the skid pan circuit. At first of course we couldn't keep the cars on the track but by the end of the day we were able not only to keep them rolling and pointing in the right direction but to take part in fairly fast timed "races" around the skid pan. So many circuits to be achieved in so many minutes without falling off sort of thing.
Since then ( some 30 odd years ago ) I've never feared oversteer. It's easy to control if you are shown how. Understeer however, has given me far more sphincter twitching moments in that time. If the front breaks loose you are still generally heading for that which you would rather avoid such as oncoming traffic. If the back starts to slide you are generally pointing away from the hazard. Of course the best plan is to drive in such a way as to not lose grip at either end.
As they say, just my 2p worth.
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>> Since then ( some 30 odd years ago ) I've never feared oversteer. It's easy
>> to control if you are shown how. Understeer however, has given me far more sphincter
>> twitching moments in that time. If the front breaks loose you are still generally heading
>> for that which you would rather avoid such as oncoming traffic. If the back starts
>> to slide you are generally pointing away from the hazard. Of course the best plan
>> is to drive in such a way as to not lose grip at either end.
I'm with you there Humph, years ago I had the use of 2 cars, a Sierra (mine) and an Escort Mk 3 (exe's) and of course the Sierra oversteered, but warned me of the limits, where as the Escort reached the limit and.... yes, clean undies please!
I'll be honest, I drove both fairly equally, the one I choose was often the easiest to get out the drive....
Last edited by: swiss tony on Thu 25 Nov 10 at 21:36
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>> >>ESP can look after the back end.
>> going sideways?
>>
>> Can anyone point me to a YouTube item saying best tyres on the front ?
>>
>> Can anyone point me to any authoritative source saying the same ?
>>
>>
Goodyear must be an authoritative source of information and here's what they say about tyre rotation. eu.goodyear.com/uk_en/advice/faqcategories/faqs/rotation.jsp
I couldn't find anything in their website about "best tyres on the front" or "best tyres on the rear". I imagine they don't think it's important.
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"I couldn't find anything in their website (Goodyear) about "best tyres on the front" or "best tyres on the rear". I imagine they don't think it's important."
But there again Michelin do and I think they know what they are talking about:
From their website:
"FOR COMPLETE CONTROL, FIT YOUR NEW TYRES TO THE REAR AXLE
Rear wheels are not connected to your steering wheel, which makes it extremely difficult to judge their grip while driving. We recommend that new tyres or the least worn tyres are fitted to the rear wheels to ensure:
Better control in emergency braking or tight corners when the roads are slippery.
Less risk of losing control of your vehicle, especially on wet surfaces
Better road holding, particularly in difficult situations, whether your car is front or rear wheel drive"
www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips
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And in fact Goodyear do actually recommend the same:
From their website:
"When you select a pair of replacement tyres in the same size and construction as those on the car, we recommend you put them on the rear axle. A single new tyre should be paired on the rear axle with the tyre having the most tread depth of the other three."
eu.goodyear.com/uk_en/advice/faqcategories/faqs/caring.jsp
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>> And in fact Goodyear do actually recommend the same:
>>
>> From their website:
>>
>> "When you select a pair of replacement tyres in the same size and construction as
>> those on the car, we recommend you put them on the rear axle. A single
>> new tyre should be paired on the rear axle with the tyre having the most
>> tread depth of the other three."
>>
>> eu.goodyear.com/uk_en/advice/faqcategories/faqs/caring.jsp
>>
Thanks CGNorwich. I found the Goodyear site a bit difficult to navigate around and I missed that bit.
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>> >>>Number Cruncher clinched with his demonstration that ALL wheels steer equally.
>>
>> Hmmm... but front tyres on a FWD wear about twice as fast as rears because
>> overall they do more work.... yes??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Yes, but the work is transmitting traction and most of the braking forces.
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>>>Yes, but the work is transmitting traction and most of the braking forces.
Yep and it's this grip I like to retain.
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Tyre rotation - Perky Penguin
