Learner driver listening to sat nav wrongly turns right and his daughter is killed in the ensuing accident:
tinyurl.com/4fnddfl
Fortunate to avoid prosecution.
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>> when her father's sat-nav wrongly told him to turn right at a junction leading him to steer their Astra car into the path of a two-ton Audi A5
I hate those satnavs that grab the steering wheel. I see the new ones actively hold up their hands in front of drivers eyes and choose when to accelerate.
Tragic nontheless.
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if i was giving instruction to a learner driver i would have left the sat nav at home
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Agreed, ZK. An experienced driver can read the road and know when the machine's instructions make sense - although plenty manage not to. A learner is still working on learning all that so the satnav can only be an unwelcome distraction.
It's not clear from the report what offence the CPS thinks the driver committed. It reads to me more like a mistake born of inexperience, and possibly a caution against learning to drive without a proper instructor and dual controls. Very sad that this family had to find out such a hard way.
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An untrained supervisor teaching a novice, and an "electronic it must be right" attitude, a recipe for disaster. I wonder if they were in an area they knew well? I don't use my satnav within about 50 miles from home, and give it a good ignoring if it tells me to do something stupid. A tragic unnecessary loss of a beautiful child.
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Agreed
And Sat Nav can be wrong the other way as well.
In deepest France mine told me to turn into a road which they hadn't finished building yet . . . but the sat nav was 2 years old.
Similarly in Edinburgh 2-3 years ago it asked me to turn right into a no entry, several times.
Anyone driven into Derby recently using a sat nav?
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>> Anyone driven into Derby recently using a sat nav?
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No, but I know the bit you mean... It would be interesting to see the arrow going through the houses they've got rid of to make that new bit of ring road!
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>> Fortunate to avoid prosecution.
"Although there was clear evidence Mr Bardhaj, 30, had committed a criminal offence, prosecutors decided it would not be in the public interest to prosecute, the inquest heard."
Perhaps the prosecution decided that it would be callous to "do" the chap when he'd just lost his daughter in the crash. I agree.
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Learner drivers should be banned from using SatNav. If a mobile phone is regarded as distracting to an experienced driver, how much more so must SatNav be to a learner?
Learners should be taught to watch the road and roadsigns, not a little magic box.
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The article: tinyurl.com/4fnddfl says that "he pulled out onto the A6 at the junction with Station Road", and that "The inquest at Bolton Town Hall was told there are clear signs at traffic lights and before the junction telling drivers they must not turn right". Perhaps I've mis-understood it, or gor the wrong ares, for I cannot see any "no right turn" signs. Hm?
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The pictures on Streetview, which usually date from 2008, show a right-turn lane in each direction on Station Road. I take this to be the police officer's point about out-of-date software: the road layout has changed since then to prevent right turns, but the satnav still contains the old one.
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>>>Mrs Bardhaj, who has 15 years driving experience, said: 'Had it been a reasonable speed limit then she may have survived.'<<<
Had 15 years driving experience bu didn't see the 'No Right Turn' sign?
How can she be in any way capable of teaching someone else to drive.
And as fo using a sat nav for a learner...
Blame the speed, blame the sat nav, anything but face up to the truth.
Pat
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Seen several cars recently with the sat-nav halfway up the screen,directly in front of the driver.
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I stopped trusting my sat-nav the first time I drove into central London and it told me to turn down 5 one way streets in a row...all the wrong way of course...AND I had just updated the maps...
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I see no mention of it, but to find himself in the path of the Audi driver, who was travelling at 45mph and doing 'nothing wrong', so must have been on the NSL road, he must have not only disregarded the No Right Turn signs but also gone through a red light.
The more you look at it, the less this case is about the satnav and the more about poor driving and supervision. But then 'Learner driver makes mistake and causes accident' doesn't make such a sensational headline.
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Was the accident at the junction of A6 Blackrod By Pas and the B5238/Station Rd close to BlackRod station?
Streetmap shows 'Ahead Only' wording in the road for traffic going SE on the by pass barring a turn into the B5238. There are corresponding prohibition signs and ahead only arrows on the traffic lights. My guess is the driver tried to make such a turn across the bows of the Audi which would be proceeding at speed under it's own green light. That would be consistent with the n/s damage to the Astra in the Mail picture (though not with the position/orientation of the Audi).
As others have said satnav is a distraction best avoided with learners. If the supervising driver is, of necessity, also navigating then it would be better used in silent mode.
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But the B-road has a 30mph limit either side of the junction. So unless the Audi driver accelerated to 45mph for the width of the A6, where the NSL applies, he was on the A6 all the time.
And the mother's comment about speed limits implies that had the limit on the A6 been lower the accident might not have been fatal. She can only have referring to the A6 because the B-road has a 30mph limit. I deduce from that that the Audi must have been on the A6.
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I'd placed the Audi on the A6 too. Possible poor visibility with lots of clutter and added hazard of pedestrians crossing. I'd have been a little under 45 with my foot already over the brake looking both ways for something sweeping across having missed the lights or looking for something just starting to move off in error.
Does seem though it would have been hard not to hit the Astra at some speed even if a fair bit lower.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 3 Feb 11 at 14:50
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I'm suggesting that both cars were on the A6 with the Astra going South East and the Audi opposite direction. The Astra may then have tried to turn right inot the B road missing the warnnig signs and the ahead only aspect of the green traffic light.
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No.
...missed warning signs at the junction with the 60mph road...
is pretty clear that the Astra was on the minor road before the turn.
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It's a Wail report. I'd not treat it as gospel but then I'm only speculting as to how the account could be matched with the streetmap picture.
Any Blackrod/Horwich locals on here who could comment. Where's Adamski when you need him!!
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How does a 30 year old end up with 15 years driving experience?
Great journalism and fact checking from the Daily Fail yet again.
And please stop hiding their url in tiny ones, I do not wish to add to their hit count under any circumstances.
Last edited by: Alanović on Thu 3 Feb 11 at 14:18
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>> How does a 30 year old end up with 15 years driving experience?
The article says that she is 32, so that would fit with her driving since 17.
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"Although there was clear evidence Mr Bardhaj, 30, had committed a criminal offence"
I'm not upping their revolting organ's hit count by looking at the article again, this is taken from further up the thread. Also, it says "Mr" and you say "she".
Good, ain't it?
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>> "Although there was clear evidence Mr Bardhaj, 30, had committed a criminal offence"
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>> I'm not upping their revolting organ's hit count by looking at the article again, this
>> is taken from further up the thread. Also, it says "Mr" and you say "she".
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>> Good, ain't it?
Very good.
Mr Bardhaj (30) was the learner driver, his wife Mrs Bardhaj (32) was teaching him to drive. It is her who has 15 years driving experience. Given that he is a learner driver, it is even less likely that he would have 15 years experience!
Do you avoid the Daily Mail because it offends you, or just because it confuses you? ;)
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Both, evidently! ;-)
Apologies for being a dimwit.
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Just as an aside if you are approaching a crossroads with traffic lights on a NSL road what speed do you think it's OK to go through the green light?
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>> Just as an aside if you are approaching a crossroads with traffic lights on a
>> NSL road what speed do you think it's OK to go through the green light?
We've done this before though perhaps based on allegations that a particular amber phase is too short.
Probably let the speed bleed off to below 50 & be ready to stop - a green light's only going one way!! I'd then be watching the light sequence as I approach and also observing vehicles on the crossing road for signs of anything untoward. Knowledge of the area and of the sequencing of the lights might also influence.
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>> Fortunate to avoid prosecution
The guy lost his child in that accident! That's the most unfortunate incident that can happen to anyone!
One lession that can be learnt from this incident that learners should never carry children in their cars.
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>> One lession that can be learnt from this incident that learners should never carry children
>> in their cars.
Well up to a point but a lot depends on the age of the kids and the stage the learner is at. Once he/she has the basics there's a lot of experience to be gained in just doing ordinary driving. My daughter did nearly all the off motorway stuff to, during and back from a Scottish holiday last year. Stood her in good stead for a first time pass.
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I know this junction quite well. The A6, the Blackrod by-pass is a very dangerous stretch. Unlit at night and not a dual carriageway, I have been overtaken, both in the car and on the bike at some horrific speeds. We used to meet friends for a meal at the pub a mile down to the left and I often go to the bike meet at Rivington, turning right from the Northbound track into Station road...straight ahead in the photo. I think there's a dedicated right turn lane for that with a filter light.. I can't imagine that right turns are banned from either way in Station Road as they would be under the protection of the lights.
That leaves the only place for a no right turn......Southbound on the bypass then right towards Blackrod Village...behind where the camera was and up the hill a mile.
Cars wanting to make that journey can go a mile south and take a right where the by-pass starts...still a 30 zone, I think. Of course, it may have changed since I last used it a few months ago.
I think the Audi's been coming from the right and the Astra has turned across his front. A sensible driver wouldn't do 45 on Station Road across the lights due to risk of bottoming on the gradient changes.
Massive, massive tragedy for all involved. Never needed a satnav myself...I'm an A to Z man !
Ted
Ted
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Here's what the Astra driver would have seen, a 'no right turn' sign on each traffic light and a large ' Ahead only ' painted on the road just under the camera car.
tinyurl.com/6j9r6bq
Ted
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That's the same conclusion I came to Ted. Not consistent with some of the Mail's wording but fits the facts for no right turn.
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Um. I had the Audi driver going that way, and the Astra driver coming out of Station Road. If it's the Mail's fault (wording), then others have the same fault - the "Notlob Examiner" or something seemed to say the same. Anyway, it's all by the bye, really.
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EDIT:
should have read article properly first!
Last edited by: devonite on Thu 3 Feb 11 at 16:25
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The thing that occurred to me after posting was that the straight ahead lane is quite narrow.
If the Astra was sat behind a 44 tonner, then I would think the lights/signs would not be seen. Likewise the markings on the road might be under the truck.
No excuse for breaking the law, of course, but confusion with the satnav plus the hidden signs might have caused the crash.
I have noticed on several trips, that the signs/road markings can be hidden. One example I've found is the approach to roundabouts where you're in the outer lane intending to go straight but the right turn arrow is masked by traffic in front of you.
I came across this somewhere where there were a series of roundabouts. On the first 2, the outer lane was marked for straight over/right and the inner for left turn only. The next roundabout had the inner lane for left and straight.....all in a mile of road.
Ted
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I see the Audi driver has not been criticised.
Presumably he gambled on the Astra being clear of the junction before he arrived.
Hmmm.
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All of which bears the question, should anyone other than a qualified driving instructor be allowed to teach someone else to drive?
I've been surprised for a long time now that it's still allowed.
Pat
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I don't think so. I certainly would not like to take a learner out in a vehicle without dual controls. It is strange how so much else of our lives is regulated but you can still teach a complete novice to drive.
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The Bolton News has a much better report than the Mail's, and supports Ted's analysis rather than mine. It says unambiguously that the Astra was on the A6 and turned right towards Blackrod. So, no red light, presumably, but regardless of signs and satnavs, the driver committed a more fundamental error of turning right into the path of an oncoming vehicle.
Significantly, I can find no reports of this in the quality press. The Bolton paper has a legitimate local interest, while the national rags have leapt on the satnav angle. Sadly, the truth is that bad driving caused the accident.
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Sounds like an attempt to transfer blame to an inanimate object, from the driver.
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Another factor in the sad outcome of the accident. The Astra is an elderly model which means side impact protection will not be up to modern standards.
I disagree with someone learning to drive with all the family in the car - and enjoying ice creams. The learner driver will be all to easily distracted, as he was by sat nav. Sad story.
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The mile or so of this road behind the Streetview car really frightens me at night,
It's single carriadeway, 60 limit and unlit. The fact that it's unlit is exacerbated by the trees and hedges linimg both sides which effectively keep out any light from other sources. Drivers put full beam on and in the wet it's really dazzling.
It used to be a place where the kids could do a bit of racing.....I don't think there are any cameras yet. The by-pass was by-passed itself by the M61 and the road is fairly quiet now.
It was the main road to the North.
I walked as far as the traffic lights from Manchester in the '60s when there was a craze for long distance walking. We were trying for Blackpool but most of us only got half way.
Ted
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>>while the national rags have leapt on the satnav angle.
>> Sadly, the truth is that bad driving caused the accident.
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Not sure I agree with you... I agree with earlier comments that there is no way a learner driver should be taking instructions from a Satnav, they just do not have the experience to be able to read the road and consider whether the Satnav is talking rubbish... Enough qualified drivers have issues with them... That Satnav should have been turned off, if anything the qualified driver is at fault for not stopping him trying the manoeuvre, but the decision not to prosecute would have been the same... Tragic ending...
Last edited by: hobby on Thu 3 Feb 11 at 22:31
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As they were under instruction the instructor (wife in this case) was equally if not more to blame. Why didn't she tell him to stop the manoeuvre? Probably because she didn't know the area either and was relying on satnav.
I wonder if they went there for a bit of a trip out (using satnav) and decided he'd have a go at driving on the way back? Maybe she had an ice cream to eat?
Don't forget the 'instructor' would be breaking the law if they were holding let alone using a mobile phone when they are in a car with a learner driver. They are meant to be instructing the driver.
As I said above, sad story. Prosecuting would not be in anyone's interest really.
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Unfortunatley not prosecuting results in the press blaming the sat nav.
While it may be heartless a prosecution would remind everyone else that the supervisor is there to instruct the driver and has some responsibility, also that the driver is responsible not the sat nav.
Making others think IS in the public interest.
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I can't see how a prosecution 'pour encourager les autres' would help. The traffic offences considered were probably relatively minor, in the fine & points area. Even if a 'causing death by/whilst' charge had been laid it's very doubtful that a judge would have given the sort of custodial sentence that actualy stick in minds. Any such sentence would rightly provoke public outrage.
I suspect the press publicity will do more to make people think. I wonder though whether it would have made national headlines if the victim were not white, blonde & photogenic.
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...I wonder though whether it would have made national headlines if the victim were not white, blonde & photogenic...
Bromptonaut,
A job on the Daily Mail newsdesk is not quite yours for the asking, but you are showing promising signs.
While the pics don't do the story any harm, the best line is the sat nav and the stupid way in which the driver followed the instructions.
The story is much less likely to have made the nationals had the child died in a routine two car collision.
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I live near a test centre and regularly pass instructors on their phones driving with pupils.
As for the OP. There were two pairs of eyes looking out the front of the car. How much of a warning do you need that there is no right turn at this junction. The marking on the road. No right turn signs on the signals and the ahead only green arrows on the traffic lights. I do not accept the blocking of vision by a high sided vehicle. You have two people that have visual range both left and right. If you do not get too close to the larger vehicle in front, you should be able to see some if not all the warnings at the junction.
The warnings in place more than covered this eventuality. The learner has to navigate using the signs around them. I have been told by my satnav to go a certain way when presumably over time the road layout has changed. I just ignore and adhere to the signage. The satnav should not be a replacement or an excuse for poor driving.
A tragic case and one the parents will have to live with.
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How many road signs, restrictions etc are caused by people "campaigning" when in reality it is their fault? The compassionate part of me says it is wrong to prosecute, the practical part of me says they need to understand it was their fault. Refusing such a campaign makes the council or whoever look hard hearted, it's easier to go with the "something must be done!" attitude. So who's right? I have no idea.
John
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Could I please introduce myself to let you know that I am the Grandfather of Ariana – the little girl who was killed in this tragic accident. May I firstly congratulate you on a well-balanced debate on this incident. It has been interesting to read your comments.
Since I attended the inquest into the death I am able to provide you with the facts of the case which may help you but this may not be for a day or so as we are still considering options.
I agree that a car with family members is not the ideal environment for driver training to be carried out. However the direct.gov.uk states “If you want to practice your driving with an accompanying driver, the accompanying driver must be over the age of 21 and must have held (and still hold) a full licence, in the relevant vehicle category, for three years. As a learner driver you must display 'L' plates ('L' or 'D' plates in Wales) in a conspicuous position on the front and rear of the vehicle you are driving.”
These conditions were met in full and my daughter was not giving a lesson to her husband, she was the ‘accompanying driver’ on this occasion. As such of course she would still be responsible for her husband’s driving.
They had left Blackpool to drive to an address in Chorley and then onwards to an address in Blackrod. My daughter drove the entire route to Chorley, and then she drove to an ice-cream establishment know as Fredericks on the A6. I have no idea as to whether any ice-cream they purchased (or whether they had coffee) was finished before they returned to the car or not. It was at this stage however that her husband asked if he could drive for a short while for practice and, those of you that know the area will recognise that there was only a little distance left of their outward journey, he was behind the wheel for only a very short time. Their return journey would have taken them back via the M61, M6 and M55 and he would not have driven at all.
Let me say at this stage that they would normally leave the children with us, the Grandparents, when making such a journey. However, on this occasion, we were decorating at home as we had only recently moved home and my daughter considered that they might be ‘in the way’. I’m sure you will appreciate how I feel about this now – I would burn the house down if it would bring our little girl back to us.
With regard to the SatNav in use; it was located directly in front of my daughter when in the passenger seat and not the driver. They would both hear the audible instructions but only she would view the map with the route being shown going to the right at the junction.
On 4th of February 2011 the Bolton News reported “A NOTORIOUS junction is to be reworked following pleas from a mother whose daughter was killed at the accident blackspot.
Highways officers say they are looking to improve safety following the inquest into the death of a girl, aged four, who was killed in a car crash on the A6 at the junction with Station Road, Blackrod.
They have already reduced the speed limit and say they are looking at other ways to make it safer.
Ariana’s death was the sixth at or near the junction since 2005 following the accident last September. ”
I promise that I will come back to you to provide much more information about this case but I hope that I have addressed some of your points.
For now could I please ask your help?
Scenario: The speed limit on approach is now 50mph. There is a sweeping left-hand bend which obscures the junction until the driver is fairly close. There is a large word of ‘SLOW’ painted on the carriageway. The carriageway is quite narrow. There is likely to be traffic waiting to turn right in the filter lane. The lights are on green but they will at some time change to amber then red.
Can you kindly respond and suggest what you believe would be the correct maximum speed to pass through the lights on green. What do you consider the ‘SLOW’ to mean?
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Grandad.
I would like to offer our sincere condolences to you for the loss of your Grandaughter in such tragic circumstances.
I believe that comes from everyone who posts on this forum.
I do however wonder if any comment may be appropriate before the end of the inquest and I'm sure the Moderators will make that decision for us, and we'll be happy to abide by it.
Pat
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Same here Grandfather - thanks for taking the trouble to post.
Rob Site Moderator.
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Let me post here as one who has had a major accident, where Sat Nav was a contributory factor.
It was in a minor unclassified road, a road I had never previously travelled. The Sat Nav indicated no deviation or action required and just highlighted the road straight ahead. The visual clues to me were straight ahead (road up a hill, hedgerows and telegraph poles up a hill etc)
In my path, hidden in a fold in the hill was a classified road ( a B road ) and a give way required. It had no pre warning signs, the Give way sign was the legal minimum size required ( a ludicrous 60 cm in size) and the road paint was worn. I had probably 50 metres at 50 MPH to overcome all the pre established data in my mind ( the visual clues, the Sat Nav etc.) I didn't till too late and slid into the Major road, hit a school bus, running it and me off the road.
The bus was empty, only by 30 minutes, otherwise the outcome could have been horrific.
The road junction was changed after my accident, and its now not possible to approach this junction is the same direction as I did. (3/4 mile of road has been made one way necessitating a 1.5 mile detour)
My thoughts?
If a Sat Nav can contribute, in whatever small way, to a mistake by a driver of 35 years and over half a million miles experience, its use should be banned in learners cars. Even by the supervising license holder.
The Police, HA and councils do change roads where practical to negate risk factors. This is sheer common sense.
The driver (and in the case of learners the supervising license holder) do have the responsibility for, and the consequences of, their actions. As I did, it was my error. Had I killed, maimed or injured 50 children the mental effect on me would have been immeasurable. Would that have stopped me being prosecuted for my actions? No. The driver in this case should have been similarly prosecuted. Fortunately only myself and the innocent coach driver were injured.
My sympathies to the family involved. We are all human and at the end of the day humans can, do and always will make mistakes. We should be grateful that as a whole, the drivers on this island make fewer mistakes than most of the rest of the world, as our road death tolls indicate year after year.
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...I do however wonder if any comment may be appropriate before the end of the inquest...
The inquest is complete.
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I totally echo what Pat says. As the Grandad of a 6 year old girl, I can't imagine your grief.
We lost a grandson, a perfect little soul, at 2 days old and we were in bits for a long time.
The road...I know this road and junction well. I would put a 30 on in both directions before the lights and a 40 on the rest. The motorway runs parallel and within sight, use that if you want to do 70/80 . The powers that be admit it's dangerous, so why hasn't it been done years ago ?. Another problem, during our evening trips, was tailgating by folk who know the road and wanted to keep up to 60mph. It's difficult when you've got someone on full beam behind and you're trying to find the premises you want.
I don't think you could put a no right turn on northbound as Station Road is the main lnk into Horwich from the A6. Horwich is a much busier place than Blackrod. I can see, however, that traffic in the right turn lane would obscure the view of traffic coming up the nearside to head to Adlington...that traffic will travel at some speed.
I've been thinking about this since the last postings. I wonder if the satnav, which presumably says to take the next right, actually should say take the next legal right, the correct way to get to Blackrod. Of course, it would be better if it kept it's mouth shut until the junction had been passed. What brought this to mind was that on Police driving courses I was on in the 60s, there was a point where the instructor said take the next right. You got in the middle of the road, signalling and as you arrived at the turn, found out it was no entry, the real turn being 50 or so yards further on. A trick on their part to test observation.
Everyone missed it !
I know all our good wishes go to you and your family.
Ted
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I take Ted's and others points on the dangerous nature of the junction.
But isn't the problem here too little speed rather than too much?
Had the driver not slowed down to make the illegal right turn, he would have been clear of the junction by the time the Audi driver arrived.
Audi driver has not been criticised, but it seems to me he assumed the Astra would have been out of his way, as any car which was carrying straight on would have been.
If I'm right, the Audi driver has not covered himself in glory, the Astra could have slowed or stopped in the junction for any number of reasons.
I would be curious to know what the girl's family make of the Audi driver's driving.
The family perhaps don't want to appear disingenuous, but I think there can be too much worrying about sensibilities.
It gets in the way of getting to the heart of the matter.
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Iffy is quite right to say that the Inquest is now complete and we have no intention to challenge the verdict which was along the lines that Ariana lost her life because of injuries received in a road traffic accident.
I don't want to say too much at this stage but I will say that having slowly passed through the lights the driver halted before crossing onto the oncoming carriageway to look for the approach of cars. He (and my daughter) say that they saw none. This might say something about the speed of the Audi (I will provide more information about this later - I promise) but I also would like to say at this stage that the Audi driver, as advised by the police investigator, has done nothing wrong in the eyes of the law. He was entitled to go through the junction at 60mph.
Whether he should or not is the basis for my asking what you believe to be a safe SLOW speed through the lights as 'advised' by the road marking.
snipped at poster's request
Last edited by: Pugugly on Sun 6 Feb 11 at 15:51
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Dear Mods,
This should have said 'we do our best' not 'why do our best' but better still, can you delete this paragraph from my text - perhaps this isn't the place to have said it.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Sun 6 Feb 11 at 15:51
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Thanks for speaking to us at what must be a a difficult time for your family, I am sure many of us who use this forum have children and grandchildren but can only imagine your grief.
I do not know this junction but there must be similar ones in many other locations. As I see it, the No Right Turn was put in to stop people turning across fast approaching traffic. It has been mentioned that the speed limit should be slower at this junction, but drivers have to work within the current rules applicable to the junction. There were possibly three errors here, not being aware of the speed limit, not seeing the road signs leading to an illegal right turn, and not checking for oncoming traffic before turning right.
I do not intend to be critical, just to explain how I see the (incomplete) facts.
EDIT:- Our posts crossed, I withdraw "Not looking for oncoming traffic".
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 6 Feb 11 at 15:30
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Another sat nav calamity - Skoda
