I decided that I would change a wheel on my new Berlingo, just for practice, and selected the rear wheel on the driver's side. I jacked the car up, and then, using the equipment provided by Citroen, set about removing the nuts that held the wheel in place. Not one of them could I budge. I'm assuming that they loosen when turned anti-clockwise, but I tried clockwise as well, just in case. It's just as well that it wasn't an emergency.
OK, the vehicle isn't brand new - it had been on the road for four years before I bought it.
The odd thing is that when I needed to change a wheel in December on my 9 year old Berlingo just a couple of weeks before writing if off, I had no difficulty.
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normal after having tyres fitted at a tyre centre...
they normally use air tools wound up to max - and have no idea what a torque wrench is.
I would NEVER allow a tyre centre to touch my car, unless I was watching.
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Everytime I have had wheels replaced at a tyre place they tighten using a torque wrench.
Having said that, a mobile tyre fitter had great difficulty with the air tools to get a wheel of my old Passat. I think the steel bolt in the alloy wheel was stuck due to some corrosion of similar. It took about 15 minutes to get the last wheel off... no hope if you had the standard tyre wrench which offers very little leverage.
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>> Everytime I have had wheels replaced at a tyre place they tighten using a torque
>> wrench.
>>
>> Having said that, a mobile tyre fitter had great difficulty with the air tools to
>> get a wheel of my old Passat. I think the steel bolt in the alloy
>> wheel was stuck due to some corrosion of similar. It took about 15 minutes to
>> get the last wheel off... no hope if you had the standard tyre wrench which
>> offers very little leverage.
>>
Scaffold tube.
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tyro, didn't you try to loosen the nuts a smidge before jacking it up? That way, you can jump up and down on the wheel wrench to put a bit more weight on it, without fear of knocking the car off the jack.
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Yeah ~ always ~ crack the nuts off a bit while its on the ground, then jack it up.
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Yes, you need to loosen the nuts a smidge before you jack.
Also, the wheel braces supplied with cars are always carp. You need an extendable wheel wrench to really get over the tyre-monkeys best efforts to defeat you. Simples.
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The tyre fast fit outfits using a torque wrench is a joke, I have seen them tighten wheelnuts with an air wrench set to max, and then check them with a torque wrench. No wonder it clicks.
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Agree with others, get the nuts cracked off before jacking. Frankly the OEM wheelbrace is unlikley to be fit for the task and I'd be using a socket set with appropriate extension bar. As an eight stone weakling I'd probably be standing on the extension and bouncing; I don't want a hernia.
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The £3 lidl extending wheel brace is the exact same as the £7 tesco one and the £9 halfords one and they're as good as you'll find quality wise.
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Thanks all. It sounds, at the very least, like I need a new wheelbrace. I don't know a thing about them. I googled "Lidl wheelbrace" and saw a 4 way wheelbrace for £4.99. I don't know if that is what I want or not.
"tyro, didn't you try to loosen the nuts a smidge before jacking it up? That way, you can jump up and down on the wheel wrench to put a bit more weight on it, without fear of knocking the car off the jack."
No, I didn't, and thanks for the tip. I do, however, suspect that with the wheelbrace I was using, it might not have done much good. But then again, perhaps it might have.
Last edited by: tyro on Mon 21 Mar 11 at 17:27
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I agree those 4 way braces are a bit rough, although they are better than most OE ones.
What no one has said is that whatever you use - and a socket with the right extensions is best - you need to use one hand to hold the spanner square on the nut or bolt head and the other to apply the force. Just sticking a spanner on the nut and jumping up and down on it risks rounding the nut and/or spanner. I've done it many times.
Had a wheelnut so immovable on my VW once that I had to use a scaffolding pole as a lever. The socket exploded in the end. Can't remember how I got it off but there may have been other damage too.
My local tyre place is exemplary in its behaviour. Pleasant chaps too.
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Thanks, RF. The order has been placed.
"Just sticking a spanner on the nut and jumping up and down on it risks rounding the nut and/or spanner."
I must confess that I was getting concerned that I might have done exactly that.
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>>I decided that I would change a wheel on my new Berlingo, just for practice,
>>
Always a good idea! Much better than finding the problems when in the dark on a wet n windy night especially on an important trip.
>>
>>Had a wheelnut so immovable on my VW once that I had to use a scaffolding pole as a lever.
>>
I had the same problem with a hire car when on holiday. More difficult getting a pole in a foreign land.
>>
>> The socket exploded in the end.
Recently had a security nut snap in half and the stud had to be drilled out.
Oh happy days
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>
>> More difficult getting
>> a pole in a foreign land.
>> >>
Not too bad if you're im Warsaw, though.
I use a strongarm with a socket in the workshop. A much ' squarer ' turn than the extenders, I often have to use a length of pipe to give more torque.
The 4 way has less leverage than what you want, they are good for spinning the nuts off when loose. Known as a Spider in the trade. You can get 6 way as well.
Ted
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>> I agree those 4 way braces are a bit rough, although they are better than
>> most OE ones.
I have both actually. A folding 4 way brace and a long extending brace.
The 4 way one is great for spinning the nuts on and off quickly.
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I keep my nuts well enough lubricated to be able to spin them off by hand once released.
Ooh Matron....
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If the bolts or studs have overtightened could they have been damaged and need replacing ?
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you may need to get a blow torch on them.
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>> I keep my nuts well enough lubricated to be able to spin them off by hand once released
I was told that's a bad idea on alloy wheels Humph, as the copper grease (I assume?) allows overtightening of the nuts and possible hairline cracking of the wheel.
I didn't read the OP thoroughly at first, yes for goodness' sake Tyro crack the nuts off with the car firmly on the ground! The last thing you want to be doing is applying shock loads with it perched on a spindly wind-up jack. Also, pull the handbrake firmly on and leave the car in gear (in Park if it's an automatic).
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi {P} on Mon 21 Mar 11 at 18:39
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>> I was told that's a bad idea on alloy wheels Humph, as the copper grease
>> (I assume?) allows overtightening of the nuts and possible hairline cracking of the wheel.
>>
Copper grease isn't a lubricant but a barrier. I doubt if it would allow you to overtighten unless you are ham-fisted enough to tighten right to the limit anyway.
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>>I doubt if it would allow you to overtighten
It does.
Wheel bolt tightening torques are specified dry.
We are lucky that steel bolts fail in such a graceful way that people tend to get away with horrendous bodging with car wheel bolts.
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>> >>I doubt if it would allow you to overtighten
>>
>> It does.
>>
>> Wheel bolt tightening torques are specified dry.
>>
We have done this before, copper grease is fine, other greases and lubricants not so.
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>>copper grease is fine
We have done this before, and copper grease isn't fine.
Manufacturers specify wheel bolts should be tightened dry.
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Mon 21 Mar 11 at 22:18
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>>The socket exploded in the end<<
Obviously not a Snap On socket then :+)
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>> "tyro, didn't you try to loosen the nuts a smidge before jacking it up? That
>> way, you can jump up and down on the wheel wrench to put a bit
>> more weight on it, without fear of knocking the car off the jack."
>>
>> No, I didn't, and thanks for the tip.
Young whipper-snapper. Another "tip" is to pull the wheelbrace (or spanner) rather than to "jump on it", a far more controllable and powerful method which won't graunch your nuts (in either way).
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I thought one extended the wheelbrace, wedged it on the ground and drive a few inches in the appropriate direction " Let the car take the strain not your back?"
And the next problem is the alloy wheels are stuck on ?.
So put ther nuts back on but slack and do a few slow speed swerves on a quiet road to loosen them ?
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>> I thought one extended the wheelbrace, wedged it on the ground and drive a few
>> inches in the appropriate direction " Let the car take the strain not your back?"
Is that how you snapped the security nut?
;););)
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>> Is that how you snapped the security nut?
>>
>> ;););)
>>
Twas my trusted indie wot done it .
Now reverted to normal nuts as no McGard nuts are available for the Yaris
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...Another "tip" is to pull the wheelbrace (or spanner) rather than to "jump on it", a far more controllable and powerful method which won't graunch your nuts (in either way)....
More than a tip, it's essential.
Hard to describe, but you want to lean lightly against the car with the shoulder of your pulling hand and keep your hand and arm straight, using your four fingers as a hook.
Put the brace on the nut at about horizontal and pull upwards firmly.
When you get confident, you can mimic an impact tool by giving the brace a 'snatch' to shock the thread.
I've been to breakdowns where the customer couldn't undo the wheelnut, but I've undone it using his brace, but my correct technique.
Jumping on the brace is for the home bodger.
Last edited by: Iffy on Mon 21 Mar 11 at 19:47
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If you've got an extending wheelbrace, don't use it to tighten the nuts / bolts back up or you'll risk overtightening them. Either use the manufacturers brace or even better a torque wrench set to the correct setting.
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>>Jumping on the brace is for the home bodger<<
You rang! ... I've always "jumped on" the wheelbrace & never had any trouble whatsoever ever not never.
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>> You rang! ... I've always "jumped on" the wheelbrace & never had any trouble whatsoever
>> ever not never.
If you didn't jump on it, i'd feel i hadn't got my moneys worth. Need to put a show on for the punter!
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>>If you didn't jump on it, i'd feel i hadn't got my moneys worth. Need to put a show on for the punter!<<
That's right! ... Ahem, I'll be leaving you know Sir :)
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A couple of times I've been stranded with a near immovable wheel nut after a puncture, with only the OE wheelbrace to work with and 'welded-on' wheelnuts.
Step One: Jack car up several inches until the wheel is just about off the ground
Step Two: put the wheelbrace on the chosen nut with its length running horizontally to the right
Step Three: put a brick/log/whatever under the end of the wheelbrace
Step Four: Slowly lower the car using it's weight as a lever on the wheelnut (car lowers but brace remains on the brick/whatever)
Step Five Do NOT look at the brace while doing step four in case it 'twangs' and kills you.
Job jobbed.
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My dad taught me how to change a punctured wheel on his car when I was a learner - including loosening the nuts before jacking up the car, and tightening them by pulling the wheelbrace with the car on the ground..
Which reminds me, I must remove and refit the wheels on the Mondeo tomorrow, so I know they will come off if I ever need to change one out on the road in the dark. The Ford wheelbrace was missing when I got it but the spacesaver doesn't appear to have ever been used.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi {P} on Mon 21 Mar 11 at 23:58
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>>Step Five Do NOT look at the brace while doing step four in case it 'twangs' and kills you.<<
Always better to not know when the end is coming!
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>> I'm assuming that they loosen when turned anti-clockwise, but I tried clockwise as well, just in case. >>
That's a little concerning, you could have overtightened them if they had moved.
That's where a little copper grease comes in, it ensures that the the nut/bolt facing and the wheel facing don't bind so consistent torque can be applied on assembly and consistent torque only is needed on disassembly.
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When good science goes bad...
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>> >> I'm assuming that they loosen when turned anti-clockwise, but I tried clockwise as well, just in case.
>> That's a little concerning, you could have overtightened them if they had moved.
Actually if a thread is rusted up, you can quite often release it by slightly tightening it first.
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>> Actually if a thread is rusted up, you can quite often release it by slightly tightening it first. >>
That was not the OP's intention, rather that he considered that the threads might be left handed.
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I was in a tyre place today, so I mentioned my inability to loosen the nuts to the gent who was assisting me. He took a 4 way wheelbrace, went around each of the four wheels, and loosened the nuts. (Needless to say, he didn't jack up the car!) I asked him if they had been over-tightened, and he said "Not really."
Oh dear . . . .
How embarrassing.
Anyway, at least I should be able to change the wheels myself now.
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That's Irn-Bru for you Tyro...
:-)
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One wonders how the Northern hoards ever managed to scare Publius Aelius Hadrianus and the 7th Legion.
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Och, nae problem, RF.
All that was necessary was deploying a detachment of the womenfolk from lower Clydeside.
:-)
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Perhaps a can of goo is what I really want - Skoda
