Had a 24 hour trip to Madrid this week which involved several taxi trips.
Final trip back to the airport was in a passat tdi with a dsg gearbox. I have no first hand experience of these, but from a passenger perspective it was very smooth. When being given some welly the only indication of gear changes was the change in revs.
This example had a shade over 200K kms on the clock, so well used, but not old in taxi terms, but I hear people complain about the DSG gearbox and to me it appeared perfect.
Are they really as bad as some say?
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Evidently not. Maybe some of the reported problems are down to user error.
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I've only driven one briefly and it worked mostly like any auto. But it does not creep like a torque converter auto so I was extra careful when I reverse parked it back at the dealers.
Some say there is a fraction of a second delay at junctions when moving off whilst it engages a gear - a torque converter would be ready to go immediately. Can't say I had much time to notice though. I did toy with the idea of getting one but it would have cost a lot more than the manual as a company car.
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I've only had a couple of weeks with my petrol Yeti DSG 7 speed so am not well qualified. However, it does have creep. Maybe not as much as a T.C. or my previous CVT Jazz, but it does creep. When you've got going it's as smooth as anything you might want. Pulling away from standstill, however, isn't, for me, as smooth as the two previously mentioned options. It does have a very slight delay when pulling away or when approaching hazards at low speed. A fast get away is not a particularly pleasant experience... it's wheels spin and it changes in to second quickly and quite sharply but if you pull away steadily and smoothly you're OK. Probably no worse than a snappy manual take off though. You have manual control via the lever which is easy to operate and you have a Sport mode which means it hangs on to gears longer and rev higher throughout the range. Left to it's own devices in Normal mode it changes at the earliest opportunity and gets in to as high a gear as soon as possible.
In short, it's OK for me but I can see it's not for everyone. The larger engine diesels have slightly different DSG boxes and might be very different, I haven't driven one. I might buy one next time but am happy enough for now. The rest of the car is excellent. Wouldn't know what to replace it with at present. CRV, Sportage, ix35, Freelander and X Trail are bigger and dearer. This is only 4.2 metres long and quite cheap to run. Feels solid and safe (as indeed it is). I like it.
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"But it does not creep like a torque converter auto"
Probably badly-adjusted or not run in - no difference between DSG and TC
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They need their 40,000 mile fluid changes.
Whether these are done on time, or skipped / done late seems to dictate whether they rack up big mileages without issue, or turn into cripplingly deep money-pits.
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I have driven a TT 3.2 DSG, fine on the move though not ideal in stop start traffic or when manouvering to park.
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Interesting comments. Thinking back I dont think we were really in any traffic - always on the move.
Might consider a decent test drive when nearer changeover time
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When you are buying any new auto, get the test drive in start stop traffic. Traffic and steep hills are where autos show their mettle. or not.
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I think they've improved over the years: my new Octavia has none of the jerkiness in stop-start driving nor the embarrassing pause when starting off from rest. OK, an automatic is never going to be as quick off the mark as a manual which you naturally rev a little as you start - but it's quite acceptable, and soon 'catches up' by seamless gearchanges.
I did try a Fabia vRS with DSG and that had more of a pause - possibly because the demonstrator was very new or there may be more than one type of DSG box. I believe some of them have 7 speeds, although I can't think why.
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>>. I believe some of them have 7 speeds, although I can't
>> think why.
>>
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Maybe to help incorporate a low first gear to reduce the hesitation tendency. That might also explain the wheelspin and early upchange that kb refers to above.
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My S-Max has a Powershift box (twin-clutch automated manual like VW DSG). It has creep and so no hesitation pulling away, but you do get hesitation if, say, you slow almost to a stop and then pull away, like at a roundabout. But you soon get used to it and adjust accordingly. It is absolutely fine in stop-start city traffic. The benefit over a TC auto is you don't get the 'slip' that really feels inefficient when you drive, and all the changesare really smooth. Overall I prefer it to the Merc TC auto that I was driving before.
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>> but you do get hesitation if, say, you slow almost to a stop and then pull away, like at a roundabout
The car is anticipating you're slowing down and stopping so the next selected gear is a lower one. And then you go to accelerate and need a higher gear and there is a delay whilst it reselects the right one.
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Sounds like the double clutch manuals are the dogs danglies if you remember such.
They are an automated manual. It's an automatic manual, not an auto
I only have experience of a single clutch automated manual (EGS) which works perfectly well if you pre-empt traffic at a roundabout for example.
Downside, is, as mentioned movement in a confined space when left and right foot co-ordination is required.
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 21 May 11 at 21:57
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Don't get me started on exploder 8.
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I've had my DSG for over 4 years now, and when mated to the 2l diesel engine it has been perfect, no problems in heavy/light traffic or when parking, maybe I've just been lucky, although I have stuck to the service schedule for the box and had all of the software updates applied to it.
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I had a Passat 2.0TDi DSG from new, did have to have software upgrades for abrupt changes but when done it was a cracking box except reverse ! no creep so was doggy parking in tight spaces as mentioned many times already
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>> except reverse ! no creep so was doggy parking in tight spaces as mentioned many times already
It was creep in reverse - or lack of it - that I was referring to above. Came to park the car and had to reverse park it and realised I'd need to give it some power. And I didn't want to damage it or another car in the car park :-)
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I thought I was either making it up, or dreaming so I went out and checked my 1.2 DSG Skoda Yeti. It creeps backwards and it creeps forwards...same amout of creep...enought to reverse in to a gap on the level but needs throttle to reverse uphill. Make what you will of what I say, I'm just telling you what MY one does.
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I recently had a Passat CC rental car with DSG. It also definitely had creep, forwards and reverse, except when you braked to a stop and the autohold function activated. Driving it was just like driving a torque converter automatic albeit one with very fast gearchanges. The only real giveaway was the "DSG" embossed into the gear selector.
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I think the key with DSG is to get as new a one as you can get your paws on.
There have been a few wrinkles with earlier ones, but i can't fault the 6 speed DSG mated to the 2.0TSi engine. For the money, even allowing another £5k into the pot, i'm pretty much convinced there isn't a better drive train on the new car market just now.
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I'm now wondering if it was the automatic break I experienced. Bear in mind I only reversed it to park it in the space back at the dealers. The subsequent longer test drive I had was for the manual because I worked out just how much more the DSG would cost per month and I couldn't justify it to myself :-) And then I decided to go for the 170PS car too so even more for the DSG version.
It did creep going forward so I guess it made sense it would creep going back.
P.S. I was also distracted by an option I thought might be handy - the reverse camera. Waste of money. The mirrors plus standard parking sensors better ;-)
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On the road they are good, no doubt about it, a bit of delay at junctions whilst it makes it's mind up, but nowhere near as bad as automated manuals which are useless imo...i still wouldn't want one mind.
I had a particularly awkward loading of a new petrol turbo A4 with DSG, i needed to put the car in underneath a car on an angled deck, which meant i'd have to nose the Audi over a step just before stopping it within a couple of inches of the deck as it angled down over the bonnet and front roof line.
No creep worth mentioning, and the clutch bite point coincided with the engine just starting to spool the turbo up, so the car wanted to launch itself...trying to touch the brakes cut the power instantly so it was a sweaty several attempt jobbie to get it right, and an expensive rollicking if i got it wrong, you don't want violent movements or bounce to feature in such circs either.
Few owners will have to perform such a trick, but once in a while we've all ended up trying to park somewhere that means you have to climb a steep kerb/rise with precise control and stop instantly when dropped over said kerb, that's where these boxes let you down.
Seeing how many parking efforts resemble vehicle abandonment these days, i doubt many need car control..:
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 24 May 11 at 19:14
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Could you not just leave it to creep GB?
In the mornings the multi storey car park at work can be busy. Sometimes there'll be a delay on the next level up. Leaving it in D and letting it creep up the ramp to the next level normally gets you onto the next level in perfect timing to see the blockage disappearing into their space. Those ramps between levels are relatively steep.
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>> Buchanan Galleries?
No, we get a discount through the work for the big NCP down on Oswald St, just between Central Station and the Broomielaw / Clyde.
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Know it well. Used to work in an office on the corner of Maxwell St a lifetime ago.
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>> Know it well. Used to work in an office on the corner of Maxwell St
>> a lifetime ago.
>>
Must have been more or less across the water from BobbyG's place.
It's all been cleaned up a bit now, not sure where they've been decanted to now but i couldn't tell the last time i was propositioned by a lady of the night on the way to the car.
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>> Must have been more or less across the water from BobbyG's place.
I stayed at a hotel opposite(ish) BobbyG's place in 2009 and it wasn't so much rough but I'd have not wanted to be out alone late. In fact I think someone was killed there a few days after I was there! I say kill it might have been murder.
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>> Could you not just leave it to creep GB?
Modern transporter decks unfortunately don't work like that S, there's all sort of stops, lumps, rises, joins, extensions etc.
Many decks the vehicle drops into specific wheel holders, many automated manuals simply don't have the power to pull/push themselves out of these traps and it won't be the first time that we've had to tow them out...unheard of since the mk4 Escort 1.4 carb'd version.
I can't impress just how easy almost every* torque converter auto is in loading operations, total infinitely variable control, even a little Matiz, and just how difficult to control virtually every auto manual is.
*some, especially supercharged big engined petrols need careful and respectful handling, even 4x4 versions such is the instant and astonishing power surge, i won't say how many or which makes have disappeared over the front complete with driver...not me by the way.
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>> Modern transporter decks unfortunately don't work like that S, there's all sort of stops, lumps, rises, joins, extensions etc.
I can imagine. Hats of to you and folks like you, at least in my day job a crash can be fixed just by holding the power button for a few seconds :-)
Whoever unloaded my last Octy scraped the underside of the spare wheel well on the ground or something. Only a thin line about an inch long but through the paint. Nothing a judicious slap of underseal didn't handle.
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>> once in a while we've all ended up trying to park somewhere that means you have to climb a steep kerb/rise
>> with precise control and stop instantly when dropped over said kerb, that's where these boxes let you down
The MAN TipMatic gearbox (single clutch automated manual) got me in a spot of bother a few weeks ago. Occasionally I have to drop a 40ft trailer up a small kerb and into a 41ft long warehouse - this time I backed it in soooo gently I didn't feel it touch the wall at the back, and managed to push the bottom 6ft of the brick wall out of line by about 8 inches. Result= one no longer secure warehouse and an insurance claim :(
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 24 May 11 at 19:34
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>> The MAN TipMatic gearbox (single clutch automated manual) got me in a spot of bother
>> a few weeks ago.
I know exactly where you come from Dave, all trucks with these boxes (excepting Volvos and possibly latest 2 pedal Scania) it is almost impossible not to hit a loading bank when you back up to them, you try to feather the thing and gently does it...surge...bang, makes you look a right plonker, worse than usual..
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>>No creep worth mentioning, and the clutch bite point coincided with the engine just starting to spool the turbo up, so the car wanted to launch itself...trying to touch the brakes cut the power instantly
That would irk me - I like to be able to manoeuvre precisely, and if you're not half on half off a road hump you can be on a hill or across a not very dropped kerb.
The CRV did the touch-the-brakes-cut-the-power thing, but I discovered that if you already had a foot on the brake, you could operate the accelerator, and as I habitually heel and toe anyway that solved the problem for me - lightly press brake and operate accelerator with right edge of foot.
I half expected the Mitsubishi to have some variation of this feature, but it seems not to - drying the brakes the other day with the left foot didn't cut the power as I expected.
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Question for GB, or any other of the pros on here....
Up to now the discussion has been only on dual-clutch, torque convertor or automated manuals.
How do you blokes find the CVT type transmissions like the multitronic that I have in the Audi?
I have to say that I find it very easy to park in normal situations - not quite as much creep as in a TQ box, but plenty enough for my limited skills.
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>> How do you blokes find the CVT type transmissions like the multitronic that I have
>> in the Audi?
Driven too few that i'm aware of to be honest, however i daresay i've shifted plenty over the years with various new, rental and lease cars, not to mention auction stuff, and not really found such dodgy manoeuvering talents that i found on the newer designs, so they must have been quite acceptable or i'd have been cussing them long ago.
Interesting that some who have the latest DSG's mention creep, confess i didn't find any worth mentioning, however it's probably 18 months since i drove a DSG, maybe improved since then?
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>> P.S. I was also distracted by an option I thought might be handy - the
>> reverse camera. Waste of money. The mirrors plus standard parking sensors better ;-)
>>
Whereas I find my reversing camera far more useful than the parking sensors. Sensors tend to beep solid when you've still got loads of (London) parking space left. With my camera I can see the edge of my bumper and get to within mm of the adjacent car.
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I had a car with a reversing camera for a few days. I found it down right dangerous. Mirrors and reversing sensor for me please.
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The parking sensors on the Passat I'm getting display on the satnav/stereo so you can also visually see how close you are to something. It basically displays distance graphically per sensor. With the camera you lost a lot of this info and the red line that represented the bumper was visually wrong IMO.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XBe2ZzQm00&feature=related
Although the graphics with the rear view camera show where the car will go - but it's next to useless. Especially when reversing I'd want to look in the mirrors and over my shoulder and not on a screen.
In fact I think I figured out how the auto park works but didn't get to prove my theory. It is very aggressive in that it parks in a minimum space considering the size of the car. It is using the rear and front sensors. When I let it try to parallel and reverse park on the two tests it failed though :-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 24 May 11 at 22:04
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I've used a few reversing cameras, but never really had one long enough to get used to it, i like Z would go for a good set of sensibly sized door mirrors and a well sited set of reverse sensors every time.
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>> I've used a few reversing cameras, but never really had one long enough to get
>> used to it, i like Z would go for a good set of sensibly sized
>> door mirrors and a well sited set of reverse sensors every time.
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Agreed. And a decent rear window to look through instead of the porthole that seems to be standard fitment on so many modern cars.
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>> instead of the porthole that seems to be standard fitment on so many modern cars.
That'll be the Passat CC I've ordered then. Which is why I thought I order the reverse camera and having seen how it worked I knew I could save a few quid and park it m'self.
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You can have mirrors, sensors and camera.
I've only had a camera for about a month, and I thought to begin with it was a dangerous distraction. I've changed my mind now. I do a quick reassurance check for low obstacles, then ignore it until the sensors are at full beep. I then switch view from mirrors to camera to get a foot nearer if I want to.
It can't distract you unless you look at it.
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I've got the DSG on my Passat TDI. Its good, but not brilliant - the lower gear changes are a bit sluggish and dim-witted but then 3-4,4-5 and 5-6 can be seamless. It think this is down to the diesel engine as well as its the older style PD engine.
It certainly can't change smoother than me at lower revs and its a bit of a pain in traffic as it constantly jumps betwen 1st and 2nd unless I put it into manual, which defeats the purpose a bit.
Having said all that, I've just been told my car needs a new mechatronics unit to get rid of some hesitation and jerking. At 50k thats a poor lifetime for the gearbox. Once this is out of warranty I will be getting rid ASAP!
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