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M5 in Somerset closed both directions by major pile-up
Twenty-five vehicles have been involved in a serious collision on the M5 in Somerset with reports of multiple injuries and possible fatalities.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-15603124
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 8 Nov 11 at 10:28
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Just listening to the midnight BBC news: they expect the M5 to be closed in both directions between J23 and J26 for at least 24 hours.
No information yet as to why it happened: strange that it should be there, on a fairly straight and level stretch, rather than on the twistier, split-level stretch just south of Bristol.
Last edited by: Avant on Sat 5 Nov 11 at 00:19
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Unbelievably, after 40 minutes BBC News 24 is still on this story, with no more information than they had at the beginning. They really do need to give us the rest of the news and come back to this, horrific as it is, when they actually have some more news.
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I've just seen this on BBC News at 5am.
They report that it involved 27 vehicles and 35 poeple are injured but many are still trapped and at the scene.
The BBC they can report that 'a number' are dead but again still trapped.
The M5 will be closed in both directions for at least the next 24 hours.
How sad.
Pat
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There must have been an element of perhaps too fast and certainly too close and perhaps there was fog? Is that stretch low lying, in a shallow valley or otherwise liable to mist and fog?
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It is low lying and prone to fog but the roads were very wet as well.
It is also at the approach to an exit so that might have been a factor, but really we shouldn't speculate at this stage.
It's the thing all road users fear, whatever we drive.
Pat
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Mixed messages from eye witnesses. One saying fog/mist and another saying it was clear; maybe it was intermittent which is more dangerous than dense and permanent?
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It's not far down the road from me. Has been the main topic on the local radio this morning and many are saying the fog was bad.
Also been mention of a large fireworks display nearby - probably unrelated, but could have been a cause of smoke / distraction combined with the fog.
One eye witness on the other carriageway stated that he was 5 lanes away and the heat was unbearable, so that must have made the rescue job very difficult, and also resulted in substantial road damage.
I wouldnt expect to see it open for some time yet, maybe even tomorrow
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Do the panel not think that 'most' motorway drivers travel too close in any conditions? I certainly do and to be honest I hate the things with a passion.
MD
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Yes they do. There is stretch of the M11 near Stansted where they have painted chevrons on the road with the instructions to keep 2 chevrons apart. The majority of drivers ignore the instructions even when travelling at 80mph plus
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>> Do the panel not think that 'most' motorway drivers travel too close in any conditions?
>> I certainly do and to be honest I hate the things with a passion.
>>
>> MD
>>
Yes, most certainly.
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The Telegraph website is reporting 16 possible deaths and 43 injured, some critical.
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Beggars belief how it can happen when everyone is going in the same direction with usually a difference of 20 or 30mph between the slowest and fastest.
Obviously once a crossover happens all bets are off.
Oh and i hate tailgaters with a passion, unfortunately this problem is getting worse.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 5 Nov 11 at 12:59
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I suppose the thing is, once a wagon jackknifes in the fog and suddenly becomes stationary, the difference in speed is a lot more than 20 or 30mph and the knock on effect with the following 20 or so vehicles is almost instantaneous.
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>> I suppose the thing is, once a wagon jackknifes in the fog and suddenly becomes
>> stationary,
From the picures i've seen the it occured just after an on slip, always a danger point, add sudden patchy fog a recipe for disaster.
Terrible tragedy, some trucks still jack knifed despite all the years of progress.
Quite where the accident investigators start i wouldn't have a clue.
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Just caught this on the news.
The police are appealing for video of the incident if anyone has any.
7 confirmed. Police think more likely.
Looks like carnage. Looking at the videos they have, if trapped in the car the fires would have got them.
Perhaps the French have a point with mandatory speed limit reductions for inclement weather.
Our rules state drive to the conditions. Perhaps they should be enforced.
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Just seen sky news.
At least 6 lorries involved, 4 jackknifed, 3 burnt to nothing.
7 confirmed dead, likely to reach 10.
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>> At least 6 lorries involved, 4 jackknifed, 3 burnt to nothing.
>> 7 confirmed dead, likely to reach 10.
Those are uncomfortable but not surprising numbers for people doing my job Z, as proved when things like this happen, fortunately rare but not rare enough, the truck to car ratio is higher than i'd have expected given the time of day, not the number of trucks, the number involved.
All the ncap ratings in the world make not a scrap of difference if you are in a car in the wrong place when trucks collide.
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When something like this happens, I always want to know more about the role of the lorries involved. The driver of a heavy lorry crashing into slower or stationary traffic has much to answer for; not that I am alleging that happened in this case.
Witnesses report thick fog. I wonder if it is even possible to drive safely in a car in those conditions given you may be hit from behind if you drive at a very low, but appropriate, speed.
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>> Our rules state drive to the conditions. Perhaps they should be enforced.
Relatively few drivers leave a 2-second gap even in good visibility...
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In my experience, if you drive at 70 and leave a 2 second gap, some bonehead in an Audi/BMW may well undertake you and go into the gap.
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They might but you then drop back to reinstate the gap
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Not 'may', but 'will'.
Although I'd have left the make of car out of it - as the haemotologist said "many ways to transport a clot".
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>>Perhaps the French have a point with mandatory speed limit reductions for inclement weather<<
Hah. I've never seen this enforced and I'm told cameras don't re-calibrate.
For some reason that has always seemed totally inexplicable to me, the French actually appear to drive faster when it rains.
This dreadful mishap happened on my old home patch so I was listening to BBC Somerset earlier. One suggestion was that a vehicle joined the motorway travelling at a speed relevant to the conditions of bad visibility but slower than the traffic already in L1. It only takes a flare of brake lights sometimes, I guess.
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Was the accident at or just after a joining slip-road, do we know? What MH has mentioned seems very plausible.
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Just after, as far as I could see. I knew the junction well, it's on a normally 'fast', straight stretch.
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No point in investigating this and trying to determine a cause - clear it up and get the road open. Move on.
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>> No point in investigating this and trying to determine a cause - clear it up
>> and get the road open. Move on.
I don't think the injured or the relatives of the deceased will see it that way. For better or worse we live in a society where people have to be 'held accountable' and where money to put things right depend on proving liability.
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Normally I say shovel it aside and open the motorway.
In this case one needs to wait till they have recovered the bodies
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>> Was the accident at or just after a joining slip-road, do we know?
The daily wail for all it's faults has some good but devastating pictures M, it's clearly just after a on slip road.
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Germans tailgate at very high speeds on their unlimited Autobahnen, even in the rain. One serious mistake and the carriageway becomes a pool table.
We saw one of these within fifteen minutes of the crash a decade ago or more somewhere this side of Nuremberg. It was much bigger than this M5 incident, a mile long counting the small supplementary shunts at the back end of it. Looked like 100 vehicles or more involved, perhaps many more. But we weren't counting although the traffic on our side of the road slowed to a crawl to give the Germans the good ogle they so enjoy.
Much bigger, but not as nasty I think. Must have been some injuries but perhaps no deaths, or only one or two.
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Looks like a Mini-Bus involved as well - gruesome.
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>> Germans tailgate at very high speeds on their unlimited Autobahnen, even in the rain. One
>> serious mistake and the carriageway becomes a pool table.
>>
I've just seen this accident reported on Pro7 news in Germany.
A mixture of Sky website footage and voice over of Police Officer's statement.
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 5 Nov 11 at 17:16
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Further to my post above I find that most drivers are not concentrating at all. Stand by the side of any road, major or minor and view. We are all guilty of it.
MD
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Some numpty making a hash of joining the motorway by the sounds of it, either mimsing on or piling into the back of slow moving traffic.
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It is unlikely to be a single factor. There is no cure for human error and lack of brains and concentration upon the job in hand.
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>> In my experience, if you drive at 70 and leave a 2 second gap, some
>> bonehead in an Audi/BMW may well undertake you and go into the gap.
Or in my case driving my BMW on the M40 last Saturday, with a safe gap from the car in front, a bonehead in a Polo did it to me, almost taking the nearside front of my car off at the same time.
If only spotting boneheads before they had the opportunity to put yours and your family's life in danger was as simple as looking at the badge on their car....
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Usual bleating starting on the BBC radio news tonight - "the government should re-think their 80 mph speed limit idea" baa baa baa baa.
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Know your place !
It's always the same, they get your hopes up with various noises made about 80 mph, and you'll end up with a 60 mph limit.
I think I can see DP's problem. He said he was "driving" his BMW. I though most were piloted when low flying.
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 5 Nov 11 at 18:13
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>> Usual bleating starting on the BBC radio news tonight - "the government should re-think their
>> 80 mph speed limit idea" baa baa baa baa.
I'm still not sure 80 will happen. The road safety lobby won't stop it but the bereaved or grieviously injured on the front page of the Mail could.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 5 Nov 11 at 18:15
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80 limit likely immaterial in this instant, the trucks involved were travelling at up to 55mph, and intermingled enough with the cars, imo.
Friday afternoons/evenings have always seen lemming driving mentality, switchover to idiot mentality occurs at around 1pm, repeated on Sunday as the lemmings return.
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I use that stretch regularly. Should've been there yesterday as it happens. Something came up. Glad it did. Sure makes you think.
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>> 80 limit likely immaterial in this instant,
Well, of course. The speed limit is always irrelevant.
But that won't stop the ninnies from bleating will it?
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>>Or in my case driving my BMW on the M40 last Saturday, with a safe gap from the car in front, a bonehead in a Polo did it to me, almost taking the nearside front of my car off at the same time.
Perhaps he thought you were 'clogging' (Centre Lane Owners Group).
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No, it was the only way he was going to avoid hitting the car I was overtaking right up the chuff.
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After all this. Tonight I was joining the A40 from the Hangar Lane RAB westbound. A Royal Mail artic behind me on the slip road inches from my bumper. As we joined the main carriageway, he went out into lane three tailgating a 4x4, which eventually had to get over to let it pass. Do these nutters not heed anything from such instances as the M5 incident. In too much of a hurry in my opinion, and all it would have taken is me or the other driver he was riding to need to brake hard and we could have ended up in a similar situation. When will people learn.
Knight of the road. Don't make me laugh.
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>> Knight of the road. Don't make me laugh.
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You don't need to convince me and i drive something biggish for a living, i cringe at some of the antics i see, and we all get tarred by the same brush.
He wasn't a driver and likely never be one as long as as he has a rear orifice, he was a licence holder, plenty about, cheap.
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>> Knight of the road. Don't make me laugh.
This applies to all vehicles, not just artics. If you're going to do something daft on the road, ensure that neither your company name or phone number are displayed on the vehicle, otherwise that's just asking for the transport manager or company to get a phone call and/or email from me.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 6 Nov 11 at 00:08
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In fairness, there are proportionately far fewer HGV drivers who behave like the one seen by Mr Ecs (because most are professionals) than car drivers (most of whom aren't).
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Hang on a minute. Look at it another way.
Ecs and the 4wd were mimsing. The HGV driver was in a hurry. Sounds all right to me.
Why is everyone so ready to get indignant over a thin little account like that? No detail, no description, apparently only three vehicles on the road, no traffic conditions described, nothing.
Boring as hell, this sort of faffing.
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I've been up and down the M5 between here and Devon quite a few times in the last few weeks following a death in the family, so I'm quite familiar with the road.
Last Sunday was hopefully the last time for a while I'll be doing the drive, but conditions seemed to be like those on Friday night may have been - patches of mist, standing water, huge amounts of spray. I normally like to make progress on the motorway, but the conditions meant keeping down to 60 and leaving a generous gap. A lot of drivers however were piling past in the outside lane, frequently bunched nose to tail; total inability to drive to the conditions.
The junction I usually join the M5 on incidentally - J22 - has a very badly designed entry slip road - a tight bend going straight onto a single lane slip road that means you frequently get drivers joining the carriageway at 30mph with a queue of traffic behind them.
And regarding the antics of a minority of lorry drivers I had one pull across in front of me to overtake another lorry going up Telegraph Hill a couple of weeks ago, towards the top where the third lane merges in. The slower one seemed to be doing 20mph, the faster one maybe 2 or 3mph faster....
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I don't know if you've still got your Saab 900 Ash, but I'm sure it should be able to reach far more than 20MPH at the top of Telegraph Hill to allow you to accelerate along the remains of the diminishing third lane.
This type of remark is usually borne out of indignation at having to move over by another persons actions and not from one's own choice.
Invariably it can be anticipated by observing the vehicles well ahead of you, and a consideration of their needs as well as your own.
It's so easy and life is so much easier for both parties.
Pat
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Sorry Pat, but I did observe and anticipate the vehicles ahead - failure to do so would have resulted in a rather nasty accident. As I've said it was the section towards the top where the third lane merges in.
Accelerating along "the remains of the diminishing third lane" would have ended up in the barrier, I don't think that's clever at all, but no doubt everyone else in the queue of traffic that built up behind these two elephant racers was delighted to consider their needs.
Last edited by: AshT on Sun 6 Nov 11 at 09:13
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>>The junction I usually join the M5 on incidentally - J22 - has a very badly designed entry slip road - a tight bend going straight onto a single lane slip road that means you frequently get drivers joining the carriageway at 30mph with a queue of traffic behind them.
>>
Lots of press talk about smoke from the fireworks display but I suspect traffic joining from the slip road played a part in the events.
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Could very well be Henry - it's an uphill entry slip onto an uphill stretch of motorway so you could get traffic joining at a lower speed than you'd normally expect.
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Driving at the speed limit or at a reduced speed appropriate to the conditions (M5 incident?) is not minmsing or dangerous. Tailgating (M5 incident?) is aggressive, intimidating, dangerous and can be lethal.
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Can I just say that as yet, we have no idea if anyone was tailgating, driving at an inappropriate speed or mimsing.
Surely this isn't the time to be apportioning blame on anyone.
A good friend of mine drives for Iceland at Swindon.....I have only just found out that he wasn't driving the lorry in most of the photo's.
He was however on his way up the slip road and saw it all happen in front of him, knowing his colleagues vehicle was a in it.
I feel angry when I watch the Guardian chappie doing the newspaper review on BBC News this morning, talking of seeing lorries and coaches 'doing 80 to 90mph' but it's what I expect of the media these days.
Please don't go down that route on here.
Pat
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>> I feel angry when I watch the Guardian chappie doing the newspaper review on BBC
>> News this morning, talking of seeing lorries and coaches 'doing 80 to 90mph' but it's
>> what I expect of the media these days.
>>
>> Please don't go down that route on here.
I agree with Pat, there is and going to be a lot of Press crap about this. We all know that lorries dont do 80 or 90 mph on the motorway, mores like three abreast at 53mph, 54mph, and 55mph ( ;P)
Also i doubt the full veracity of MR X's story, I do a lot of miles still, and I have not seen a lorry in lane three for about 25 years, without good reason, (like lanes blocked). You also have to bear in mind that at this time of year a lot of truck drivers are Christmas contract drivers, and could and probably are from any part of the EU.
To tie this in with the M5 crash, Its not a "lorry" thing, no-one here is placing blame on the trucks, its a general road mix accident, and by the nature of big motorway shunts, not even a really big one. What does single this one out is the huge fire and the subsequent death toll.
I would like to know, "why the big fire?" "why were fire crews helpless to save those in the midle?" why did so many die in what should have been a regular motorway pile up?
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"why the big fire?"
I heard some radio clip that one of the trucks was carrying a load of aerosols...dunno if it's true or not.
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>> I would like to know, "why the big fire?" "why were fire crews helpless to
>> save those in the midle?" why did so many die in what should have been
>> a regular motorway pile up?
There's no doubt the joker in the pack here was fire and that many/most of the deaths will be from burning or toxic fumes, not the impact. Barring something in the truck's cargo the most likely fuel for the fire was diesel. But what allowed spilled diesel to get near it's flaspoint and then ignited it?
Once it's burning then there's nothing in the fire service's armoury to get them access to those in the middle in any reasonable time. I doubt even the kit and response times available to airport fire srvices could do that.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 6 Nov 11 at 09:47
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>> Also i doubt the full veracity of MR X's story, I have not seen a lorry in lane three for about 25 years
They are allowed to use the outside lane on 3-lane dual carriageways Z. Common sight on the A12 around Chelmsford. It's only motorways where the outside lane ban applies.
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I know that, but you dont see them there, costs its the devils own to try and get back again
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If your comment is directed at me pda, politely as always, let me say that I am pointing out a few of a multitude of possible reasons/causes of this tragic event. I am not saying that anyone was doing any of them. Driving at a speed, and with a spacing appropriate to the conditions, can never be a bad thing
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Not aimed at you in particular Meldrew, not at all, just a general request for us all not to apportion blame.
Pat
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Thank you! The position is clear!
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I usually agree with AC, but not necessarily on this one. Most instances of poor driving don't prevent me from driving my own way and dealing with it, but there are some go beyond that.
It doesn't follow that Ecs etc. were mimsing, or matter as far as I can see.
Habitual tailgaters tend to do it whether they want to go faster or not. There are plenty of circumstances where your speed is dictated for you either by cameras, or conditions including heavy traffic, and still, there they are, attached by the invisible towrope.
Often they won't overtake however many opportunities you force feed them. There's a straight country road near here that I won't do more than 40/45 on because deer frequently suicide there. Some people do 60/70, their choice. Last week I had a(nother) tailgater who just wouldn't overtake. I ended up stationary with her stopped behind me, gesticulating furiously. I don't think she knew how to overtake.
The overriding point though is that professional drivers of heavy vehicles should not use them in an intimidating and dangerous manner. Dependent of their licences as they are, if they don't value them enough to drive responsibly they shouldn't keep them. (To Pat's post, I don't allege anything in relation to the M5 crash).
I do not exonerate drivers of less lethal vehicles by these comments.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 6 Nov 11 at 09:12
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>> It doesn't follow that Ecs etc. were mimsing, or matter as far as I can see.
No, it doesn't. My post was written hurriedly in a moment of irritation late last night. What I meant to suggest was that, from Mr Ecs's extremely detail-free account, he and the 4X4 might have been mimsing and the post office artic might have been in a hurry. I didn't mean to assert that they definitely were.
I certainly agree that tailgaters are a pain. There are quite a few in these parts, usually small cars, quite often driven by women, and as you say quite often not really wanting to go any faster but just too dumb and ignorant to maintain a safe, courteous distance. My wife, less experienced than me and quite a bit more cautious, hates them with a passion.
Time was when I went everywhere more or less flat out. The only tailgaters then were hooligans in fast cars. These days I drive more at the upper end of normal speed, quite often within the law even. Only when a sequence of well-known bends arrives do they suddenly get all crossed up and drop back into the distance. But my car is a bit lumbering in the twisties so even then some of these idiots manage to hold on, being in modern cars far too good for them.
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Ac I would presume you know that part of London.
That slip road runs down almost onto a 40mph speed camera. I was not mimsing at all. Just didn't want a ticket.
As for the 4x4. He wasn't either.
Last edited by: Mr. Ecs on Sun 6 Nov 11 at 12:45
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>> Hang on a minute. Look at it another way.
>>
>> Ecs and the 4wd were mimsing. The HGV driver was in a hurry. Sounds all
>> right to me.
>>
That doesn't give the HGV driver any right to put other people's lives in danger. An idiot in a 40T HGV is much more dangerous than an idiot in a 2T car.
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>>ensure that neither your company name or phone number are displayed on
>> the vehicle, otherwise that's just asking for the transport manager or company to get a
>> phone call and/or email from me.
>>
And me, one a month at least.
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I try and remember that a good rule of thumb for emailing or phoning a complaint to anyone, is would I bother if I had to go home, sit down and get a pen and paper out, write the letter and go and post it.
Usually the answer is no.
Pat
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death toll at the scene has been confirmed at 7
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I didn't realise until the other day that most recent cars have plastic fuel tanks (if I understand correctly). I am of course, no expert, but it seems to me that - even with automatic cut-off valves, etc - this is a bad idea.
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Actually its a far better idea.
A tin tank splits and tears badly in a crash, emptying its contents pretty quickly.
Plastic tank will deform much much more before it ruptures, and when torn has a (small) element of self healing.
Foir example, stick a piece of angle iron into a metal tank, and you end up with a triangle type hole, stick it into a plastic tank and you have two narrow slits that try to close up again.
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They also don't generate sparks and act as an insulator slowing the transfer of heat to the fuel .
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And they don't lose integrity through corrosion. Sorry to gang up on you Mike ;-)
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They do melt though, grab than lifeline Mike..;)
The old Benz has the galvanised steel fuel tank in a most unusual place, it's mounted upright in the boot up against the steel bulkhead separating the boot and the passenger compartment, no access at all the three boxes of the design are fully separated, seems close for comfort but it would have to be a devastating accident to split that tank, which is obviously as sound as the day the car was made.
I well remember having to patch mild steel tanks mounted directly in harms way just behind the rear bumper, they rotted as badly as the rest of the car.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 6 Nov 11 at 13:03
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I remember lying under my Ford Zodiac MK 111 using this grunge to patch a petrol tank in the 60s. I am surprised there is still a demand for it - classic cars perhaps?
www.partridgeshadleigh.co.uk/catalog/granville-petro-patch-petrol-tank-repair-compound-35ml-p-6449.html
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>> I remember lying under my Ford Zodiac MK 111
Confession here M.
I had a lovely C plate mk3 executive (gold with black leather bucket seats indeed), it needed a drop link for the MOT otherwise good, so i stripped it out and banger raced it.
Kimbolton is where it died.
Still can't believe i did that and wish i could turn the clock back, i was only 18 at the time so stupidity taken for granted..;)...please forgive me.
Replaced it with a mk4 exec i seem to recall, underrated car that.
Never used petro patch, i found glass fibre matting with resin bonding made a good seal, ot later the useful P40 Isopon...resin base with chopped glass fibre mixed.
Probably get us locked up now, but money was tight in those days, and you'd never find one any better in the scrappy.
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Just as well I used tinyurl for this tinyurl.com/cmktb9p
The original had 13,382 characters in it!
I bought mine second hand (FBH992C) and apart from the rusty tank it went well. It had a useful factory mod of a floor change but it made a bit of a nonsense of having a bench front seat!. It died after a rear end shunt.
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 6 Nov 11 at 15:24
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There's one for sale here
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C190531
Grisly colour, visible rust and £2850 so not for me!
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MG midgets had 12 1/2 gallon vertical tanks right at the rear, completely exposed and coach painted to match the rest of the body.
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Well, you're welcome to plastic tanks folks. In the same way that disaster happens in a split second I can't believe the alleged safer characteristics could make much difference in a case like we've seen this weekend. I feel happier in a car that's built like a brick outhouse.
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There was a lot of sucking of teeth when the law changed allowing plastic tanks on bikes - seems to have improved design though allowing complex shapes to be formed improving wet, sprung, weight distribution
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News update mentions that the possibility of visibility being reduced by bonfire and/or firework smoke is being investigated.
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Melly, It always seems to be a bit mistier and smoky around 5th of Month due to bonfires...ISTR some years ago similar comments being made about farmers burning off stubble after a few accidents on adjacent motorways.
Ted
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Quite right Ted. The situation is complicated by a driver talking about white smoke (like paint on my widescreen) and another witness mentioning black smoke. It has been revealed that the Club bonfire was totally official and had been approved by all relevant authorities. A total tragedy however it was caused; it is reported that there were 4 members of one family in one of the cars - dreadful.
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 6 Nov 11 at 19:19
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BBC Wales radio reporting an elderly couple from Newport that are missing since Friday night. Doesn't look good.
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Southbound now open again, but northbound still shut.
I have a few work colleagues who commute from down there - hope they are OK
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To swing the perspective, and broaden the scope of the thread.
M5 motorway crash: How safe are Britain's motorways?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15608217
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Does midlifecrisis not patrol this area?
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Think his M5 beat is north of Bristol, more in the west midlands.
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>> Think his M5 beat is north of Bristol, more in the west midlands.
Pretty sure he's Central Motorway Police - West Mids plus Staffs, Warks, Shropshire and Hereford/Worcs.
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>>
>> Melly, It always seems to be a bit mistier and smoky around 5th of Month
>> due to bonfires.
Just had an amended thought about that, There are not many bonfires around here yet, on non windy days, it seems to be the smoke from fireworks that hangs around.
Is ' gunpowder ' smoke any different to 'fire ' smoke ? Heavier and less likely to disperse, perhaps ?
We'll have few more days of bangs 'cos it's Eid, and all the lads are at it round here ! Good luck to them all
Ted
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-15623499
Two lorry drivers were among seven people killed in the M5 crash
Samworth Brothers, which owns pasty makers Ginsters, said it was "shocked and saddened" by the deaths of two of its drivers. A third employee was injured
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>> Is ' gunpowder ' smoke any different to 'fire ' smoke ? Heavier and less
>> likely to disperse, perhaps ?
>>
We watched the display at Chester racecourse on Saturday. The course is in a bit of a bowl, and we were above it, on the Walls. At first the smoke was rising and drifting to our left, but as the display went on it seemed to stop rising and was then spreading along the ground in all directions.
By the time the display finished you could barely see the low level fireworks!
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I just wonder with two lorries from the same outfit involved whether they were driving in very close convoy?
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www.metro.co.uk/news/880850-taunton-m5-motorway-crash-police-to-speak-to-bonfire-organisers
I'm surprised that no-one has picked up on the significance of the two cars parked on the hard shoulder approx 400 yards ahead of the crash.
Both were damaged and not removed for over 24 hours.
If you scroll down the link and watch the video, you can see about 1 minute in, them being removed.
Could that have been the cause of the initial jacknife?
Pat
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I bet the Rugby Club are checking their insurance cover.
I bet other clubs who do fireworks are having a good think about their own insurance which is unlikely to be more than £20m (and quite possibly only £2m). Quite possibly they won't have told their ins co that they were having a firework display, so potentially no insurance at all.
And £20m doesn't go very far with destroyed motorways, and deaths of those of earning age. So, if a club incurring a liability greater than the insured amount is an unincorporated members' club, the individual members are probably liable.
All sensible clubs that do this sort of thing are run through companies (limited by guarantee).
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Mon 7 Nov 11 at 18:10
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One of the road Ministers who attended the crash was very surprised by the fireballs that happened during the incident, he used to be a fireman and had never seen such explosions during his service, when I first saw some of the pictures I was taken back by the flames as we are always told that modern car fuel tanks don't explode in crashes, speculation seems to be that more fatalities were caused by the resulting fires than the initial impacts.
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I was down "that" stretch of the M5 this morning. Clearly no lessons learned. Typical Monday morning. Everything too close to the vehicle in front and weaving like shuttlecocks as usual.
Came back up the M5 / M6 tonight. M6 shut between 12 and 13. "Accident" apparently. Thank goodness for the very clever Merc "dynamic" sat nav. found me a country lane jam avoidance route without asking. It "sees" jams and re-plots round them.
And so it goes on. More people will die again tomorrow because someone can't bear not being a few yards further down the road than it's safe to be.
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>>Clearly no lessons learned<<
I was thinking the same thing this morning when I took the Lancer out for a spot of mimsing,
White van man trying to mate with my cat (alyzer)
It's a crying shame to hear about the people that lost their lives on the M5 last Friday,
When the details come out about who they were, where they lived, what age they were, who they've left behind etc.,
I was particularly saddened to see a photo of the elderly couple from S. Wales in todays press.
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I was out in the car and Radio 2 was on as usual. But it was the irritating Jeremy Vine show. I didn't switch over/off because someone from the IAM was speaking. They explained how this could have been avoided (maybe not the initial accident) if people drove at an appropriate speed with a sensible gap in front (I am paraphrasing). Vine cut in a few times about the 2 second rule and rightly got told it didn't apply. That's for good conditions, dry road etc.
Bottom line is people were too close for the speeds involved. If visibility poor you slow down. Or even.... stop I guess.
I drove to/from near Durham on Saturday. On the way there the weather was bad and on the M1 I drove appropriately but we got overtaken at well above the speed limit. And this when the signs were saying debris in road and 50mph. When we came across the debris (middle lane of A1(M)) it looked like plastic etc from light clusters. And at that point there was a badly damaged Audi A4 on the other side of the carriageway with an ambulance... and a damaged central reservation. I do wonder whether they were going north (like us) or south.
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The present position seems to be that there was no bonfire, according to some news sources, but there was a firework display and smoke from this may have contributed to the massive accident. Yesterday it was stated on one TV news bulletin that a "Fingertip search" of the rugby club site was taking place. What would they be hoping to find I wonder?
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Couldn't agree more Humph. I drove up to Avonmouth yesterday morning. The motorway northbound seemed much quieter than a normal Monday morning, but normal service was resumed going back down in the afternoon - lane indiscipline, bunching / tailgating, etc.
Off up there again now - see what it's like this morning.
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>>>no bonfire, according to some news sources, but there was a firework display and smoke from this may have contributed to the massive accident
We've noticed this time of year in the fens** a fairly small amount of smoke from an evening bonfire will travel in a concentrated corridor for a long way clinging just above ground level.
***I mention the fens as it's an unusual chance to observe landscape for over a mile with no interuptions of hedges, trees, hills or buildings.
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M5 in Somerset closed both directions - Avant
