Why does HJ have this pathological dislike of diesel engined cars? I've never known him to recommend one in his DT column, citing problems with dual mass flywheels and DPF filters.
Except my family has been driving diesel cars for the past 15 years, doing a mixture of journey types, and we've never had a problem. Nor has anyone I know.
Yes, they're more expensive, and yes, you need to be pushing 20,000 miles a year to justify it economically. But ultimately they are far more pleasant to drive than a petrol engine of equivalent power, the noise issue is gone, and the particulate problem is gone.
The BMW 116i is appallingly bad - I took one as a courtesy car once and in a 60 mile round trip on the motorway at 75 mph, it averaged 32 mpg. How can you live with that?
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HJ is not against Diesels........he is against HUGE repair bills with newstyle Euro 4/5 diesels.............DPF issues, DMF issues, Clutch issues, Turbos, EGR Valves, wrecked engines............bills of £2,000+ in cars with average miles and only a few years old.
Old diesels were smelly, noisy but ran for donkeys as long as the oil and filters were changed.......many diesels in the last few years are quiet, powerful, good fuel consumption but when things go bang your pocket suffers.
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But doesn't the same apply to petrol engined cars nowadays? Every aspect of the injection cycle is computer controlled, even the coil packs need pairing with the computer. Both have complicated ESP / airbags / electronics etc.
Do you know anyone personally who's suffered massive repair bills from a modern diesel?
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yes i do, a honda accord 2.2 cdti the warrenty company dodged out of most of the bill. He paid 1400 out of 2000 pounds. Mainly clutch and other knock on issues
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>> Do you know anyone personally who's suffered massive repair bills from a modern diesel?
>>
Yes, me! I was quoted at least 3500 pounds (and that is with "goodwill") for the turbo failure on my BMW - which did collateral damage when it went.
I'd only done 77000 miles, mostly on the motorway. The garage claimed that this style of driving was actually the best for the turbo, and was probably why I had been able to get SUCH A HIGH MILEAGE FROM IT BEFORE IT WENT!
Seeing the many failure reports on the internet, and fan forums, BMW seems to have a serious problem with turbos. Shame that they are now strapping them onto all their petrol engines as well.
They make a great choice as a new car, but I wouldn't touch one out of warranty.
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>>the warrenty company dodged out of most of the bill.
I've yet to read anything positive about extended warranties and their potential benefits, so I tend to self insure.
But there must be satisfied customers somewhere, surely.
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>> But there must be satisfied customers somewhere, surely.
>>
Yes, plenty. However there are also horror stories.
I firmly believe though, that to a degree, you can create your own luck. I'd be fairly uncomfortable buying a second hand modern diesel, because you'd never know if the previous keeper/user had:
- misfuelled it,
- constantly used cheap supermarket petrol,
- constantly rode the clutch,
- regularly lent it to someone who drove it like he's stolen it,
- regularly towed a heavy trailer
- etc
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>> >>
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>> - constantly used cheap supermarket petrol,
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I think that would be included under misfuelling :)
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Don't agree with the cheap supermarket petrol being an issue - it is all made to the same British Standard.
Last four of my company cars
Vecrtra 2.0 TD - 46k in 18months
Passat 1.8T Petrol 98k over 4 years
Acccord 2.2 Cdti 126k in 4 years
Octavie 1.9 Tdi 103k and counting in just under 4 years
No DMF problems but I start it with foot on clutch
No DPF problems (havn't had a DPF yet) but my use is unlikely to cause DPF problems
All run on cheap supermarket fuel and no misfuelling - you learn to look twice when you drive lots of hire cars.
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>>No DMF problems but I start it with foot on clutch
Don't we all do it that way. Or is it just me and thee?
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I always start a car with clutch depresssed. Was taught it from the off so habit now anyway
Back to the diesel issue, our Bravo (57 plate) now has 124k miles on it (1.9 multijet 150). It had an EGR issue fixed under warranty at 20k miles, but no other issues oft reported on modern diesels. Turbo, clutch etc.. all still original.
Oh and I would say over 90% of the fuel used has been supermarket..
Last edited by: PR on Tue 6 Mar 12 at 08:44
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I always start a car with the clutch depressed, a required habit from the days of pathetically weak starter motors, treacle oil and usless batteries.
However, I dont think that has much to do with the longevity or otherwise of DMFs, much more wear and damage can be done to the in the way you drive.,
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>> >>I start it with foot on clutch
>> Don't we all do it that way.
Used to, but my car doesn't have a clutch pedal any more.
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Nothing wrong with supermarket petrol (its not cheap round here either), nothing wrong with driving like you stole it either (in fact doing so is vital to keeping a modern diesel clean and healthy)
I reckon turbo failure on diesels is down to the stupidly long oil change intervals, the oil is full of soot. Petrol turbos seem ( these days - it was never always thus) to last longer.
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>>they are far more pleasant to drive than a petrol engine of equivalent power<<
That's your personal opinion, and of course you are entitled to it, but for me its petrol every time,
unless its a commercial vehicle, or a paw x paw.
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I wouldn't buy a car or lease what can do less than 50 mpg.Our diesel 54mpg.I fill the tank with the BP super stuff.If prices keep going up next car might have a look at a car with a LPG tank build in.I used to drive using LPG in a VW Jetta.
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You've got to put the clutch in on the X1 and the V50.
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Same with the Focus R.P.Press clutch push button start.
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>> unless its a commercial vehicle, or a paw x paw.
>>
Oh I dunno, I used to have a Discovery V8. Always funny when some prune neglected to read the "V8i" bit on the back and attempted a carve up, only to find that it was significantly more lively than they were expecting and the anticipated gap they'd gambled on didn't materialise.
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You have to depress the clutch on my VW too.
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"Sorry clutch I'm going to have to depress you" In the style of Nigel Planer's Neil.
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>> "Sorry clutch I'm going to have to depress you" In the style of Nigel Planer's
>> Neil.
>>
Yeah man, like my clutch is like really, really heavy.
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Replacing the DMF and clutch on my S60 diesel cost £1,600 at eight years and 114,000 miles; a new intercooler last year was another £400. Horrendous? Well, I'd have preferred not to, of course, but over that mileage the equivalent petrol model would have used 5,000 litres more fuel. The car is now fettled for the foreseeable future, and will probably fetch a few hundred more than a petrol S60 when I do eventually sell it.
Would I go back to 2002, knowing what I know now, and choose a petrol instead? Emphatically, no.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Tue 6 Mar 12 at 14:33
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>>Replacing the DMF and clutch on my S60 diesel cost £1,600 at eight years and 114,000 miles
Replacing the clutch on a Montego at 35,000 miles would be £400. (I know, it would have been £135 in 1986, but you get my point!)
So whilst the bill is considerably bigger, it's much less frequent.
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FF
I think HJ is merely picking up on the trend that modern diesels are much more complex and potentially more expensive to fix than the old school models. Blame Euro 4/5 for that and when Euro 6 comes along with its NOx reductions, it will be another step change in complexity and cost. I drove older diesels without problems but would be cautious of owning a newer one. Even my old Octavia needed a turbo at £1k, after 20000 miles. Brother in law spent £2K trying to fix a Touran tdi, neighbour spent £3K fixing a Ahlambra tdi, two people at work right now have EML light on on VAG tdis. Another colleague had to scrap a 2004 Peugeot 407 diesel as nobody could fix it for sensible money!
Also, your hired 116 was indeed a bad example, most petrols that size will average over 40 mpg on such a trip. My Focus 1.6 yesterday, 100 miles on the motorway = 43mpg. Our 1.4 petrol Corolla averaged almost 50 mpg on a recent 200 mile trip.
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You are all quoting BMW and VW diesels..
Since their cars are inherently unreliable anyway judging by the reliability figures I have seen, you are in reality cherry picking faults in diesels..
VW make wiring looms that fall apart and oil pumps that fail.. so to expect them to make all their diesels reliable...is like asking Ken Livingstone if he avoids tax:-)
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MAdf, I have never personally heard of a Toyota diesel fail but there are a few DMF flywheel problems on the Toyota forums. Other than that, they seem very robust. But there are a lot less of them about, so sample size in my totally unscientific survey is completely flawed!
I would like to see some proper data on the reliability of Japanese and Korean diesels --anyone?
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>> MAdf, I have never personally heard of a Toyota diesel fail but there are a
>> few DMF flywheel problems on the Toyota forums. Other than that, they seem very robust.
>> But there are a lot less of them about, so sample size in my totally
>> unscientific survey is completely flawed!
>> I would like to see some proper data on the reliability of Japanese and Korean
>> diesels --anyone?
>>
Toyota had a string of HG failures on the 2.2 D4D... manufactured in the mid 2000s and happening after c 100k miles.
As it was a design problem, they changed them FOC...
There are the usual blocked up /sooted up EGR valves and the odd sticking turbo..
Yaris d4d appear good for 200k plus miles without major incidents...
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and what about high mileage Kia Diesels ?
It wasn't until 2011 (if memory works) that a DPF was fitted.
So there must be a few high mileage Diesel Kia's out there with no problems.
No dual mass flywheels and no DPF filters to worry about.
What I am unsure about is the new 1.1L diesel Kia Rio, not sure if it has DPF and Dual mass flywheel.
So the point I am raising is that not ALL diesel cars are a problem.
Last edited by: diddy1234 on Tue 6 Mar 12 at 14:47
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Don't be so sure, Diddy. 100,000 miles is a long time to spend in a Kia, especially if there's no DMF to make it civilized. I don't see your typical Kia buyer as a high-mileage user.
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hmm one owner here with 132000 miles in four years.
not bad.
www.roadtestreports.co.uk/road-test-reports/Kia/Rio/#carreviews
Most high mileage Kia's I have seen (for sale) are around 50,000 to 75,000 miles.
I would imagine it is because the timing chain needs to be replaced at 60,000 miles.
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Kia's are not chosen by company car drivers, so few are used as 200 mile a day motorway munchers. I doubt if many will have clocked up more than 70k in the warranty period.
And after the warranty no-one will fix them at reasonable cost, so most will (and do) get crushed.
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shame but I suspect true.
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>> And after the warranty no-one will fix them at reasonable cost, so most will (and
>> do) get crushed.
>>
Are they that expensive to repair?
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>> Kia's are not chosen by company car drivers, so few are used as 200 mile
>> a day motorway munchers. I doubt if many will have clocked up more than 70k
>> in the warranty period.
>>
If I keep mine for the whole 7 year warranty (unlikely) it will be at about 110,000 miles. I expect it to go at five years and about 75,000.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 6 Mar 12 at 18:34
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>> Don't be so sure, Diddy. 100,000 miles is a long time to spend in a
>> Kia, especially if there's no DMF to make it civilized. I don't see your typical
>> Kia buyer as a high-mileage user.
>>
Try driving a Ceed, you will not be able to tell if it has a DMF or not.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 6 Mar 12 at 18:21
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>> What I am unsure about is the new 1.1L diesel Kia Rio, not sure if
>> it has DPF and Dual mass flywheel.
>>
I don't know if the new Rio has a DMF but all diesels sold in Europe must have a DPF from Jan 2012 to meet the Euro 5 spec.
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I don't think you can really include turbos in the argument against diesels now that you can't really get a petrol engine without one (thinking of VW's TSI range, for example).
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I think you will find there are plenty of new cars to be bought without a Turbo.
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Plenty of cars without a turbo but more and more getting them. VAG have petrol cars with both a turbo and a supercharger! Then again the latest BMW diesel in the 550d and other models has three turbos!
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In all the diesels I've had, the engine has been the most reliable part of the car.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 6 Mar 12 at 19:05
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Out of a total of probably 35 cars I've owned, not one has been a diesel.With my low annual miles, and SWMBOs company car available for longer trips, I don't see that changing in the future.
Her previous '07 Passat Tdi failed her twice when the injectors packed up, at just over 100k miles, 2.5 years old and both times stranding her on the motorway. Goodness knows how much the repair bill would have been if privately owned and out of warranty. However, she still prefers it to her current Insignia Ecotec.
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On t'other side... - Falkirk Bairn
