Introduce Yourself > Can anyone help Caveman Miscellaneous
Thread Author: bathtub tom Replies: 33

 Can anyone help Caveman - bathtub tom
 Can anyone help Caveman - FocalPoint
I have done so before and will do again.
 Can anyone help Caveman - MD
Caveman Rocks!
 Can anyone help Caveman - bathtub tom
He wouldn't roll, hadn't invented the wheel.
 Can anyone help Caveman - MD
W I L M A!!!
 Can anyone help Caveman - Caveman
I'm here Barney. Many thanks Chris. I was not much of a contributor on HJ, more of a lurker. Enjoyed reading some of your posts though, and hope to do the same here.
I've only had a quick look round so far, but from what I've seen this looks a great place to hang out. I might be a caveman, but the HJ site was becoming way too prehistoric for my liking.
 Can anyone help Caveman - VxFan
Greetings Caveman. Whether a lurker or contributor, your presence is welcome.

Reading the thread you started on HJ, I can't help but notice bhoy wonder's post. A quick forum search reveals he's here, so can't understand his comment. Come on BW, don't be so shy.
 Can anyone help Caveman - bhoywonder
Sorry if my comment caused any confusion with my comment. Was trying to let other back roomers know that there is another site out there. Completely unsuccessful by the looks of things and I had my 8 month old boy on my knee at the time trying to break the keyboard.

 Can anyone help Caveman - Caveman
I'll see if I can help janliv18 in the same way that I was helped. Seems he's missing us too.

 Can anyone help Caveman - Caveman
Oh dear! Got this email this morning,

Dear backroomer,

Unfortunately we have deemed it necessary to remove your post. Please
refer to our backroom policy –

Well that's one forum I shan't be returning to in a hurry if that's the way they treat their members.
 Can anyone help Caveman - Stuu
Oh they still doing that are they. I was looking through that place the other day and it really doesnt seem to have gained much momentum, esp on the quality front.

Thing is, we have Rattle, so we are way way better than them ;-)
 Can anyone help Caveman - FocalPoint
I have had a similar message in connection with a post I made in the Backroom thread "Discovered another forum".

As I have strongly protested against the deletion to the "Webmaster" who e-mailed me, and am awaiting a reply I shall say nothing - for now.
 Can anyone help Caveman - Pat
What did you expect?

Would you like someone to come inside of your business and tell the public that they can get better/cheaper elsewhere?

No, you would turf them out on their ear, and claim you had every right to do so.

I've been dissapointed at the lack of forum etiquette shown by a few ex backroomers in the last few months.

I've watched the surrepticious posts made on HJ asking for people to make contact via email and I absolutely dissaprove of this practice.

The internet is a big enough place for both forums to exist and if any party is that unhappy about the one they are using, they have the world at their finger tips to look for an alternative.

I read the backroom every morning, I don't read it and gloat but more with sadness that it's struggling. I would like to see it get back to where it was.

I rarely post, as I'm more comfortable here, and I do firmly believe that this forum is far and away better and will succeed as a major player in the future, in it's present form.

I also know where my loyalty lies, but I have a personal code of practice that I try and live my life by, and 'touting against forum rules' falls way outside of it.

I would like to think that it's something the management here don't approve of either.


 Can anyone help Caveman - car4play
I get your point Pat, but I don't think it is quite as straightforward as you state. I can think of a few reasons why here, and there may be more that don't come straight to mind:

1) there isn't any business lost in the sense that forum members aren't paying for any services. They flit in and they flit out at will. In business terms users are just clicks on some stats system.

2) If someone asks a simple question on a public forum about another person's whereabouts or what has gone on, what is wrong with a simple truthful reply? Are you suggesting that it is wrong to give a simple answer on a public forum?
One could go further and see situations where it would be wrong not to help someone who genuinely needs that information. e.g. extreme example: if you were in hospital A and hospital B had developed the drug to cure you which A does not have, it would be wrong for a visitor to A not to tell you about B.

3) if someone says that member xx on this forum can be served better in the quest for an answer on another forum we would allow that information to be shown here.
(On a similar vein in our own business:

- I point some of our customers to other companies when I think their needs will be met better by that other company. e.g. I pointed someone the other day to the developer behind the HJ site as they needed some help with ASP.NET as we don't do that. i.e. if there is a service someone wants and we aren't really able to provide that I point them to someone that can. By being civil and putting their needs first I sometimes get other business that is more relevant to us from them, just because they know they can trust us to give them what they really need. If I don't, that's also fine.

- I never try to keep a customer whose 'heart and soul' is really with someone else for whatever reason. If someone doesn't appreciate the service or product that we supply, then no amount of persuading can often make them feel otherwise and we let them go. We are worth far more than having to beg, grovel and scrape to a customer that doesn't value what they get from us. Our customers appreciate us and we feel likewise about them. If they don't, they are better off served elsewhere and that is good for both parties involved.

4) I believe there is a technical issue also at stake here in that the HJ Backroom policy (as I understand it) does not specifically ban the kind of activity that ChrisPeuguot and Caveman have done. I may be wrong and they can correct me, but I believe that part of the problem is that they don't know what policy in particular they have infringed. At the end of the day this is probably irrelevant because that site can do what it likes and that's ok, but it does rather leave a sense of injustice that punitive action has occurred when no apparent rules have been broken.

Last edited by: car4play on Fri 4 Jun 10 at 09:48
 Can anyone help Caveman - Pat
Why doesn't that answer inspire any confidence whatsoever in me?

All I ask is that if the tables were turned............?

And now I'm off out to work, so I will leave you to ponder what the word etiquette means.


 Can anyone help Caveman - car4play
Hi Pat

Sorry, I don't feel you actually really read what I wrote.

>>All I ask is that if the tables were turned.

.. I did put that in point 3 down concerning our own business. Specifically for C4P we allow mention of whatever forum or site. Period.
(Edit: and if the tables really were turned I would have hidden your post because it contained the word HJ referencing another 'competing' website! You have broken our forum policy, but I won't tell you which one or why.)

And in the extreme case example I cite, if you are ever terminally ill (God forbid) in hospital A and the treatment lies with hospital B would you like your visitors who know about B not to tell you because of 'etiquette'. I hope not! It would not be right to hide that information from you.
As I said, it isn't quite as simple as you originally state. The extreme example shows that there is a line somewhere in there for what is right or 'etiquette' and what isn't.
Last edited by: car4play on Fri 4 Jun 10 at 10:01
 Can anyone help Caveman - Iffy
...I will leave you to ponder what the word etiquette means...

I won't.

'Etiquette - noun, the rules of correct behaviour in society or among members of a profession.'

Car4Play's post shows a firm grasp of professional etiquette, and I've had a lot more etiquette shown to me on here than I did in the other place.

 Can anyone help Caveman - R.P.
You're a very ettiquetted person that's why !
 Can anyone help Caveman - Iffy
...You're a very ettiquetted person that's why !...

Or 'netty-quetted' - that's one for our North East members to smile about.
 Can anyone help Caveman - FocalPoint
I have the greatest of respect for Pat, but I really cannot let her post (directed at me, I think) pass unchallenged.

"Would you like someone to come inside of your business and tell the public that they can get better/cheaper elsewhere?"

- I have not done that. I have not suggested on HJ that car4play is better in any way ("cheaper" isn't relevant); I have merely offered information about its existence. My last (now removed) post does not even hint at the nature of the information I was prepared to offer. My previous posts have offered privately to answer questions raised on HJ about where certain BR members have gone. I guess I am now blacklisted.

" would turf them out on their ear, and claim you had every right to do so... 'touting against forum rules'..."

- I accept that those who run a website have every right to do as it suits them and I have said so to the various representatives of HJ with whom I have been in communication. However, they have claimed I have breached their rules in some way, which I do not understand; read the t & c and policy documents published on their website and form your own judgement. So if objective criteria are claimed to be relevant here, it seems that HJ's minions' apparent inability to justify their banning of even the faintest whiff of car4play smacks of petty-mindedness, to say the least. And of course it's one-way; car4play does not ban references to HJ, positive or otherwise.

What you say about the internet being big enough to accommodate both sites is certainly true and I share your reluctance to gloat. As for feeling sad that HJ seems to be struggling, I guess I am more matter-of-fact about that than you. They have made their bed and must now lie in it.

"I also know where my loyalty lies, but I have a personal code of practice that I try and live my life by..."

- I believe loyalty should be to individual people rather than organisations and I guess that is why a lot of people are here, on car4play. As for a personal code of practice, I hope you can accept that I have been motivated by principle, not prejudice. If my moral and ethical compasses seem awry I trust someone will show me in what way this is so.

Last edited by: ChrisPeugeot on Fri 4 Jun 10 at 10:12
 Can anyone help Caveman - Pat
Very quickly before I leave, there have been many reasons from car4play and from you Chris to justify it.

I will listen to them and can accept them all.

But with respect, deep down in my heart, I know the reasons behind the posts and so do you both
It can be justified with facts.................but it will never be justified morally as far as I'm concerned and I suspect I'm not the only one who is shocked to see it being not only condoned, but encouraged on here.
Although I may well be the only one prepared to say so:)

Now, any replies will have to wait until tomorrow morning.

 Can anyone help Caveman - FocalPoint
I feel tempted to respond to Pat's latest post (I will at least thank you for your fair-minded reaction, however), but feel I should not be fuelling the debate any further, particularly as she won't be reading this stuff or able to respond for some time.

Better to let others have their say, I think.
 Can anyone help Caveman - Bellboy
You can take it from me im not in your side of the car park pda.
In fact there is a very wide motorway to cross thats busy 24/7
I also don"t try and take other peoples customers, as i neither want or need them ,but, im always willing to give competitors referrals ,even though it might not be in my interest in the short term.
I think thats the answer to be honest.
Theres those that see the bigger picture and those that only see to the front gate
 Can anyone help Caveman - Dog
I used to work for a national mobile car tuning outfit (Hometune) in London,
I eventually went on my own after 7 years under the name Autotune (E.Sussex)
I was in direct competition with the Hometune Franchisee in that area,
We used to get on so well, he would often pass-on work to me (and vice versa)
I notice many links here to Aitchieboys, but I wonder why they fear car4play so much.
 Can anyone help Caveman - Iffy
Leaving aside interesting questions of etiquette, I am grateful to whoever it was who sent me an email about this forum.

OK, some of you might wish that email was never sent, but that's another story. :)

Anyone who is prepared to help others find their way here gets my vote.

As Car4Play points out, it's not as if paying customers are being poached, which would be a bit naughty.

 Can anyone help Caveman - Stuu
I think the difference between here and the BR is that the BR is all business. We may well have fallen into a false sense that we were part of something bigger, but in reality, none of us matter to the business as individuals.

Here, we, the individuals seem to matter. It was set up so far as I can see, because a few good souls saw the value in the people, thats why many of us got handy hints.

I think its quite funny that they are so protective about references to other forums simply because had they been mature and intelligent about it, they would have realised that im sure the vast majority would have continued to contribute there had it not been for their 'attitude'.
It has been rather counter-productive for them. Give a little and get more back.
 Can anyone help Caveman - Pat
Good morning all, and thanks Chris for suggesting waiting while I was at work. It was late when I got home last night I am back again at 5am this morning.

First, I would like to answer car4plays post in a bit more depth.

>>1) Exactly, and I agree with you, but since the service is provided free of charge it allows the provider to make their own forum rules and expect people who use it to abide by them. If we don’t want to do that, then the option is not to use the forum, it isn’t to protest and try to change them. I feel that policy applies to ALL free to use internet forums.

>>2) Nothing wrong with that at all providing it complies with the above, but in the case of the BR, it doesn’t. As far as I’m concerned, we ( I) have to accept that.

>>3) Very commendable and one of the reasons for car4plays success. However, it is within the rules for car4play but not for HJ. That doesn’t mean it is open house to try to get HJ to change THEIR rules to run alongside yours. Individual forums and individual rules should be respected and stand or fail on their own.

>>4) Now, it is this one I have a problem with. As I see it, the HJ Backroom policy is no longer anything to do with anyone other than their Admin and owners. Previous knowledge, in this case, is a bad thing. It is ‘past’ knowledge and this forum would be even better than it is, if it stayed there. If Chris & Caveman feel a sense of injustice then they have the option that can be taken in point 1.

During the last 8 years, I have been involved in some ongoing lorry driver forum rivalry and disputes. There has never been a winner, and more to the point a couple of the forums are now defunct. Strangely, the majority of the forum posters on the defunct forums don’t post anywhere now and have been lost.
It is my opinion that the quieter ones among us don’t like the disputes and drift away. I certainly don’t want to see that happen here and feel it is a major reason for the BR downfall.

Now to Chris!
Once again thanks for waiting and it wasn’t intended to have a go at just you or Caveman, if that’s any consolation:)
However, nit picking their rules and T&C’s has only one effect, it gives Admin and the owners a whole bundle of work to do ( work which is usually done voluntarily in their spare time).
As above, it’s their ball and they can play with it however they want to. There is no rule saying they have to use the same rules as car4play.
I fully respect and understand your reasons for doing it Chris, and I know it isn’t prejudice. I do feel that in some way, those reasons are misguided though, and to come and report back on here of your displeasure just adds fuel to the flames unnecessarily.
It was that which prompted me to finally put my view forward on this.
Many people read forums and never post at all, and we should remember the impression we’re giving them too.

I knew when I posted I would be in a minority, but that has never stopped me from voicing my opinion, in this case it is different to yours.
I would suggest to you that maybe I am seeing a little more than the front gate with the future of this forum in mind. The bigger picture will unfold at some point:)

The emails were acceptable in my book, especially when the BR was down for a couple of weeks, and after that. It’s knowingly going against other forums rules I can’t get to sit straight with me.


I think you about sum the situation up for me:)

And of course, there’s good old Dog!

Now, what I would love to see happen would be the owners of this site and the BR settle their differences and work alongside each other. It can be done, Dog says so. We have managed to do it on our forums and the Mods & Admins have a much easier time now.
The forum members are happier without the undercurrent of animosity and some are tempted to actually make that first post.

I hope this explains all that I didn’t have time to explain yesterday and that Chris didn’t mind me using him as Devils Advocate either!

I’ll face the flak later this afternoon or early tomorrow morning!


Last edited by: pda on Sat 5 Jun 10 at 03:53
 Can anyone help Caveman - FocalPoint
"I hope... that Chris didn’t mind me using him as Devils Advocate" - so that's what it was! :-)

Thanks to Pat for a long and thoughtful trawl over the issues here.

I really don't want to prolong this. My feelings are that Pat wants a quiet life and for the world to be a peace with itself and others here (me included) feel it's worth testing principles, even if it means making some unpleasant waves. If it wasn't Pat involved in this I might have the temerity to suggest there is a gender element here! (You know, cavemen swinging their clubs at each other - that kind of thing.)

One more point to add: this is an internet forum, for God's sake, not the whole of life itself. I don't really care if HJ blacklists me or bans me or whatever may happen. I don't actually mind if people here don't agree with me. I do believe it's important to say what you think, have a good reasoned argument and move on.

I do welcome what others have said and value c4p as a pretty good place, when all's said and done. And that's the end of my contribution to this thread.
 Can anyone help Caveman - Caveman
>> I do welcome what others have said and value c4p as a pretty good place,

I echo those comments too Chris. Sorry, not been around much of late and just catching up with things. I didn't realise it would cause such a huge debate by trying to inform someone from the other forum where everyone had gone. I certainly appreciated being told where you were all hanging out these days. It's a much more relaxed and happy atmosphere here.
 Can anyone help Caveman - car4play
Thanks for the detailed reply Pat. I agree with most of your points. If I may say a couple of things:
1) there is a difference between posting invites to here on the honestjohn forum to simply answering someone's legitimate question as to everyones whereabouts. We would not sanction the former as that would be impolite (lacking etiquette), or simply wrong. I don't see anything wring about the latter although would not sanction it on the basis that they clearly don't like it and we are not about deliberately upsetting them.
>> Now, what I would love to see happen would be the owners of this site and the BR settle their differences and work alongside each other. It can be done

I would not want anyone to be under the apprehension that we have "differences" to settle. Not at least to my knowledge. After developing their site for the last ten years I have had a business relationship with longer than anyone here. We still do business with them. We just no longer develop their website. We simply could not devote the resources to them that they required.

A consequence was that we still own the forum software of their previous Backroom and this is what you have here in modified form.
We will continue together as very different sites. Fundamentally is autocratic (excuse punn). It is driven by articles written by experts. They are the main content generators for useful income. The Backroom (and now owner reviews) are really misfits in my opinion.
On the other hand is a community-based website where all the content will be user-generated. The forum, member reviews of cars etc. fit into this model better. It is harder to create a successful site like this that is useful to punters looking for information because as much as I love you all some of the stuff you write is silly (even if some of it is very funny) while a lot of it is really useful information. The only way to get some handle on which is what is with a rating system which I know many if you hate. The usefullness of this system is higher on information that is more motoring based. Eg once we get owner reviews we will rely on it to prioritise good (high rated) reviews on a particular car model.

I believe we have the bigger challenge of the two sites.

Luckily we like a challenge!

Last edited by: car4play on Sun 6 Jun 10 at 18:25
 Can anyone help Caveman - bathtub tom
>>once we get owner reviews we will rely on it to prioritise good (high rated) reviews on a particular car model.

I'd hope you'd give a balanced view and not just emphasise the good points of any vehicle.

Kia Pride owner!
 Can anyone help Caveman - Pat
>>it's important to say what you think, have a good reasoned argument and move on.<<

Thanks car4play, it's good to see there isn't the animosity between the management of both sites as sometimes appears, and I think we can all respect Chris's statement above now:)


 Can anyone help Caveman - MD
Pat, I think you are probably the most balanced person here, genuinely.


 Can anyone help Caveman - Pat
Thanks M.
Perhaps you'd like to try telling that to Ian now and again:)

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