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More pedal power chat.
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Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 7 Nov 14 at 10:23
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29497117
Reckless and stupid behavior in anybody's book.
I do hope though that those cyclists observed all the speed limits, "approaching 70 mph" even with a bit of journalistic licence seems to me to be somewhat excessive on a bicycle on a public road .Especially as I can see no evidence of a dual carriageway (the only road where a pedal cycle can legally do 70 mph) on the route.
Of course being cyclists they'll be above the law anyway. ;-)
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>> I do hope though that those cyclists observed all the speed limits, "approaching 70 mph"
>> even with a bit of journalistic licence seems to me to be somewhat excessive on
>> a bicycle on a public road .Especially as I can see no evidence of a
>> dual carriageway (the only road where a pedal cycle can legally do 70 mph) on
>> the route.
As a matter of law (rather than common sense) speed limits are for motor vehicles. An attempt to prosecute a cyclist over the 30 limit has been tried and failed in recent past.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 5 Oct 14 at 19:30
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You live, you learn.
Do speed limits have no [legal] relevance to cyclists? Because some parts of traffic law do.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 5 Oct 14 at 19:38
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>> Do speed limits have no [legal] relevance to cyclists?
Good article here: www.bikehub.co.uk/featured-articles/cycling-and-the-law/
See 'cycling furiously' some way down the page.
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>> You live, you learn.
>>
>> Do speed limits have no [legal] relevance to cyclists? Because some parts of traffic law
>> do.
AIUI on ordinary roads exceeding the posted limit is not, of itself, an offence. Exceeding it by a significant margin might though support some other charge such as 'furious riding'. OTOH speed limits imposed via by-laws, of which those in the Royal Parks are perhaps most relevant, do apply. I've read that cyclists are regularly fined for exceeding the 20 limit in Richmond Park.
I'm not aware of any other areas where traffic rules omit cyclists, red lights, STOP/Give Way signs etc certainly do not.
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But a bicycle tyre blowing out suddenly on a fast bend is pretty lethal. It happened to my poor little sister. She sustained a serious head injury and was never quite the same again although her marbles remained intact.
I'm convinced that the worry, and the physical effort of rushing to see her when his heart was a bit dicky, shortened my father's life. I've never felt the same about my former brother-in-law since, suspecting him (as the male partner) of not making sure the sister's bike was in proper condition, something that wouldn't have occurred to her until the thing was literally unrideable. This although I've always liked him.
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In any workplace, a risk with the heading of
"said the act could have badly injured or killed someone" would be taken very seriously but if the risk was then put to the test 70 times and
"More than 70 racers had their tyres burst by the spikes although no-one is thought to have been injured" it would be rapidly downgraded.
In other words, yes it sounds horrific and dangerous but in reality all it did was give punctures to 70 participants.
A similar thing happened in Scotland a few years ago - I don't think they ever got the person responsible.
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>> I do hope though that those cyclists observed all the speed limits, "approaching 70 mph"
I see that the DM has changed the wording in its headline to 'up to 50mph'.
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>> I see that the DM has changed the wording in its headline to 'up to
>> 50mph'.
Looks as though there's been a further edit. Speed now omitted from headline and reference in text is to 40mph (70kmph). The use of kmph does not comply with normal protocol which whoul be kph.
I suspect something was lost in transcription/editing of original report.
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Coming back from Bakewell last Monday with the caravan in tow I drove down the long straight descent from from High Lane to Hazel Grove on the A6. After the buildings finish it changes from 30mph to 50mph.
I was bowling along merrily at about 40 when I was overtaken by 2 cyclists on my offside. The first was pedalling furiously with his nose on the bars and his bum in the air. The other seemed to be slipstreaming him about 10ft behind and wasn't pedalling.
With all the traffic, we jockeyed for the next 5 miles or so......of which 4 were 30mph. I had to make a left eventually. I was very careful about doing so as these guys had come up my nearside a few times during the journey. I had placed myself a bit nearer the kerb than usual to dissuade them but nevertheless, I took extra care in turning.
I never saw them again.......perhaps someone further back got them !
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>>
>> Cyclists should wear identification similar to car number plates to help curb misbehaviour, according to
>> a police commissioner.
>>
>> www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article4231138.ece
>> metro.co.uk/2014/10/09/number-plates-on-bicycles-could-be-the-future-of-cycling-4899299/
Another example of why putting minor politicos in charge of the Police just leads to stupidity.
Like re-testing older drivers one first needs to prove a need. Then consider practicality.
Even those places that have tried it have given up.
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When questioned, just a little, on why such a step would be justified, the Commissioner demonstrated why the role is otiose. www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2014/oct/09/police-commissioner-proposes-id-for-cyclists-but-cant-explain-why-or-how
An example:
"In the last few years in Sussex we’ve had over 1,700 incidents involving cyclists. Those sort of numbers worry me.
But what did 1,700 incidents involving cyclists mean – was it incidents where cyclists broke the law, or were themselves hit by cars? And if the latter, how would bike IDs help anything?
That’s the terminology that the police use – 1,700 incidents. You’d have to ask Sussex police.
Pardon?
This is information that the force have given me. In the last three years, over 1,700 incidents involving cyclists in Sussex.
But what does it mean?"
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Sat 11 Oct 14 at 20:16
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>>
>> Another example of why putting minor politicos in charge of the Police just leads to
>> stupidity.
>>
>>
There's nothing these people like better than foisting yet more rules and regulations on the rest of us. I can see the method in her madness, it ensures she gets her name in the paper in an attempt to prove that overpaid her non-job actually has a purpose.
I bet she was a prefect at school.
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"Also, there is already a very good case study of easily readable ID plates for cyclists: London’s hire bikes, which have numbers in easily-readable digits on the frame. But when someone asked the cycle hire people how many reports of lawbreaking had been made out of several million trips the answer came back: two. And neither cited the registration number."
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"it ensures she gets her name in the paper in an attempt to prove that overpaid her non-job actually has a purpose."
Who's idea was it to introduce PCCs?
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>> Who's idea was it to introduce PCCs?
Conservative manifesto 2010?
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>>
>> Conservative manifesto 2010?
>>
There's nothing politicians of all pursaitions like better than creating new departments and posts that will cure all ills in whatever field they happen to be. It would be better if they abolished half of those that exist already and re-employ the self important twits that fill them into something that more suits their limited talents, like cleaning toilets and picking up litter.
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Number plates!!!!!!! Some lights and a brain would be a good start.
At dusk today I came across a guy on a racing bike, on a narrow, fast, two lane country road completly dressed in black Lycra. When he was in the shadows he almost disappeared. My daughter was driving about ten minutes behind me and her husband who was a passenger said " Did you see the nutter in black on the bike " when we met up later.
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>>At dusk today I came across a guy on a racing bike, on a narrow, fast, two lane country road completely dressed in black Lycra. When he was in the shadows he almost disappeared.
>> My daughter was driving about ten minutes behind me and her husband who was a passenger said " Did you see the nutter in black on the bike " when we met up later.
He couldn't have been that invisible if both your daughter & husband, and you also saw him ;)
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>> He couldn't have been that invisible if both your daughter & husband, and you also
>> saw him ;)
>>
>>
True, but he was riding towards our direction of travel. I will risk being called a racist by saying the most obvious bit of him was his white face. It was a clear sky with a very low sun and dark enough for most drivers to have their lights on, my auto lights had switched on.
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I witnessed the classic "sorry I didn't see you" scenario yesterday in our local town. Car waiting to turn right to join the flow of traffic I was in. Lady cyclist coming safely and properly the other way. Gap appears in vehicular traffic and the right turner shoots out straight into the path of the cyclist causing her to take emergency avoiding action, not exactly crashing but causing her to swing hard to her left, hit the kerb and stumble.
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>> Gap appears in vehicular traffic and the right turner shoots out straight into the path of the cyclist causing her to take emergency avoiding action, not exactly crashing but causing her to swing hard to her left, hit the kerb and stumble.
It's worse when you are the right turner, as I have been several times over the years. I always try to apologise when I've caused a near miss, but there isn't always enough time.
It sometimes amazes me how few people are killed and injured on the road.
Huge tractors have been tilling the big fields round here at night with headlights, like tractors on the plains of the US Midwest. And their huge knobbly wheels have covered stretches of the lanes and even the rural A roads with lovely slippery mud. I enjoy the odd wriggle and moment of wheelspin, but I don't suppose everyone does. Makes the cars look well-used too, mud up to their eyebrows.
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>> ....................rural A roads with lovely slippery mud. I
>> enjoy the odd wriggle and moment of wheelspin, but I don't suppose everyone does. Makes
>> the cars look well-used too, mud up to their eyebrows.
>>
A friend of one of my daughters, and a young mum, slid off on a bend covered in tractor mud that had been rained on. It was dark. She broke her back.
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>> A friend of one of my daughters, and a young mum, slid off on a
>> bend covered in tractor mud that had been rained on. It was dark. She broke
>> her back.
>>
This happed very near where we saw the cyclist dressed in black with no lights yesterday on the B939.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 12 Oct 14 at 13:53
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>> At dusk today I came across a guy on a racing bike, on a narrow,
>> fast, two lane country road completly dressed in black Lycra.
>>
Far worse than that was the horse rider that I encountered down a fast country lane by us at dusk this weekend. Black horse, whose rider wearing dark trousers, dark jacket and black riding helmet. No attempt at lights or high viz.
The difference between a horse and a cyclist is that the horse is unpredictable, very heavy and a potential killer when out of control.
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>
>> The difference between a horse and a cyclist is that the horse is unpredictable, very
>> heavy and a potential killer when out of control.
>>
Also if you hit it, take the legs from under it, and it comes through the windscreen or roof. A bit like a big deer or stag.
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I am in Dublin just now and amazed at how many cyclists there are in city. Far, far more than what you see back home in Glasgow.
Fighting for road space with the sightseeing buses. There is only ever going to be one winner there.
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>> I am in Dublin just now and amazed at how many cyclists there are in
>> city. Far, far more than what you see back home in Glasgow.
>> Fighting for road space with the sightseeing buses. There is only ever going to be
>> one winner there.
I suspect that as in Central London the cyclists have (or shortly will) achieve critical mass. At that point they're just part of the traffic with buses and everything else adapting.
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It is silly season for cyclists in St Andrews at the moment. An old town with narrow streets, some one way, and a new batch of students on bikes to add to the day trippers, foriegn tourists, golf tourists, and local residents. One of my daughters who is a resident thinks that the students must think that they have reached the end of the world, way beyond common sense and traffic laws. Be they pedestrians or cyclists.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 13 Oct 14 at 17:14
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>> It is silly season for cyclists in St Andrews at the moment. An old town
>> with narrow streets, some one way, and a new batch of students on bikes
I've said repeatedly here that Freshers in Uni Cities, along with grad trainees and other new recruits in London, should be prime target for cycling training.
[tic]If your'e gong to shoot reds and ignore one way streets at least you should learn to do it at minimum risk [/tic]
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>> Fighting for road space with the sightseeing buses. There is only ever going to be
>> one winner there.
The pubs.
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The pubs certainly won with me tonight! Everything I could ask for in one evening! Hic!
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>> The future ?
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29601069
London's travel to work zone is too big to achieve Copenhagen's proportion, though the Mayor's new cross London routes will encourage more.
Other cites like York or Cambridge may not be so far off 50% though
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Imagine if all those who parked the bikes were trying to park cars.
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I never understood how cycling is so popular in places like Copenhagen or Netherlands with their inferior winter climate to ours - I mean look at all those women with kids in cargo bikes cycling in the snow - you would never see that over here. And no helmets, either. It's not as if they non't have underground rail in Copenhagen - I guess its a cultural thing.
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>> I never understood how cycling is so popular in places like Copenhagen or Netherlands with
>> their inferior winter climate to ours - I mean look at all those women with
>> kids in cargo bikes cycling in the snow - you would never see that over
>> here. And no helmets, either. It's not as if they non't have underground rail in
>> Copenhagen - I guess its a cultural thing.
It's partly cultural but Holland began putting effort and money into cycling facilities 40 years ago as a response to the then 'fuel crisis'. Previously they'd followed same pattern as UK with motor vehicle as king. Copenhagen has gone down a similar route.
As you may have found in London where there is an intensive underground or bus service a bike is quicker than public transport. Even where tube is a handful of stops one one line, say Euston to Victoria, the bike is competitive as soon as you factor in any real walk to/from station. Add a need to change, say Euston to Holborn or Temple, and public transport is left for dead. The bike journey is also predictable to a minute or two; no 'next train 4 minutes' or deciding whether to travel nose by armpit or hope next one is less packed.
Worked at Archway Tower for a short while. Even with station in the office basement the bike was about same time to Euston.
Used to see cargo bikes full of kids in London every day but mostly on the segregated bit by Tavistock Square.
Don't know either city but I suspect both are far more compact than London and have affordable habitation closer to workplaces. While both are significantly colder than London decent clothing will compensate. Unless precipitation is much higher than London the chances of rainfall during a 30 minute ride each way are actually pretty low.
Cycling is seen in both countries as a normal activity, like walking. Whatever the perception head injury rates for utility cycling are low - about same as for pedestrians. If wearing a helmet makes people feel safer on a bike they wear one but clearly most Dutch/Danes have come to same conclusion as me - too much hassle for any real gain.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 14 Oct 14 at 12:38
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My cycle to from work goes through Hyde Park. I assumed that because roads pass through it, it would remain open after dark (even though I did wonder about the security for users). But the pedestrian/cycle gates are shut, which means I have to skirt round the Park. At the moment Kensington Palace Gardens with the ambassadors residences is a nice alternative, being traffic free, and with some truly enormous mansions.
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The lad and I and one of his mates "did" the red trail at Llangegla yesterday, some info here ... www.coedllandegla.com/NetsiteCMS/pageid/21/index.html
I've been "mountain biking" for nearly 5 decades. Brought up in Scotland with easy and unrestricted access to the hills and mountains we started trail riding long before the concept of MTB riding had become recognised and developed as a mainstream leisure activity. With no knowledge of the early off road specific bike development which was starting mainly in Califorinia at the time, we by trial and error built our own what we called "tracker" bikes. Primitive machines assembled from second hand parts begged or borrowed often from old bikes dumped at the the local tip.
No such luxuries as suspension forks and indeed the most vulnerable aspect of those trackers were their forks, constantly breaking on the rough stuff we'd often take a spare set if we were going to tackle anything challenging.
The frames were deliberately chosen undersized for manoeuverablility and even then you could buy knobbly tyres but nothing as sophisticated as now. By experimenting with different configurations we also discovered that straight handle bars were the best solution and that fitting the best brakes you could afford was money well spent.
Anyway, it has remained a hobby to this day and although I'm now closer to 60 than 50 I still enjoy getting out in the hills on a bike almost weekly. Technology has advanced exponentially and it's possible to buy or build the most complex of machines but the basic principles remain the same and the riding techniques aren't so different.
My son took an interest in my hobby at an early age and my wife is now also a mud plugging addict.
So, back to yesterday, I had one of those father / son life moments when it came to me that my son was suddenly a bit quicker on the hill than I am for the first time. He'll be 15 in February and I realised that I was struggling to keep up. There was that odd mixture of pride and sorrow I guess comes to most when something like that happens. Don't get me wrong, I'm arrogant enough to believe I was still the quickest "old guy" on the trail yesterday but the young bucks were outriding me.
Damn!!
What's more, I had to spend a good hour chugging up and down the swimming pool last night just to untangle my tortured legs.
"He" says he can't feel any after effects.
Double Damn!!
I'm not ready to be old. Not nearly.
;-)
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Growing old is inevitable.
Growing up is optional!
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No immediate plans to embrace the latter !
;-)
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Give yourself a new lease of life, Runfer.
Buy a road bike.
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But that would mean riding only on roads.
Nah !
Can't get airborne on roads.
Then there's the Lycra
Nah !
;-)
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>> But that would mean riding only on roads.
>>
>> Nah !
>>
>> Can't get airborne on roads.
>>
>> Then there's the Lycra
>>
>> Nah !
>>
>> ;-)
>>
Road bikes (The cyclo cross versions of) are banned in mountain bike races because they are too fast. MTB's are allowed in cyclo cross because they're not.
Man up Runfer, grow a pair and do it properly ;-)
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I have a hybrid bike with upright handlebars but quite fancy a road bike with drop. Had one before and sold it because I just didn't like the brake position and lack of repeater brakes on the horizontal bar.
Then I saw the cyclocross bikes and some of them have these additional brake levers, some have brake discs which would solve my issue of commuting in rain with normal brake blocks, and they also come with hybrid type tyres if you wish.
Just b***** dear to go with it though!
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...I just didn't like the brake position and lack of repeater brakes on the horizontal bar.
As a general rule, brake levers on drop handlebars with repeater levers do not work as well as plain brake levers. The overall placement of the levers is quite crucial and a bike on drops with good lever placing will stop in less space than using repeater levers.
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All banter aside ROR, road biking has never appealed to me. Not as a hobby anyway. I'll ride on the road for practical reasons without hesitation but it just doesn't float my boat to do it for fun.
The reward, for me anyway, of a long off road climb is the descent. It has sort of replaced skiing for me now that I live somewhere where that is more impractical to maintain as a regular hobby.
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>> I'll ride on the road for practical reasons without hesitation but it just doesn't float my boat to do it for fun.
You could take your mountain bike on the road sometimes and get airborne over speed bumps and cushions some of which seem made for the purpose. Others nay seem too abrupt. You have to get to know your route.
Some of those London road cyclists go really fast, well over 30mph. Chapeau! Not that I know anything about cycling. I sometimes consider getting an assisted bike of some sort, an electric one or Velosolex. But the enthusiasm never lasts long.
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>> All banter aside ROR, road biking has never appealed to me. Not as a hobby
>> anyway. I'll ride on the road for practical reasons without hesitation but it just doesn't
>> float my boat to do it for fun.
>>
It's horses for courses Runfer, whatever floats your boat. I briefly had a mountain bike a couple of decades ago but it never appealed. When I was getting into racing in my mid teens my then best mate took up cycle speedway which was a popular sport then. Your tales of riding small frames sourced from skips and the like was how most of the speedway lot operated back then. Road racing needed a light bike with a decent spec, but on the short four laps they used as long as the wheels went round and nothing fell off they were competitive. The only thing they ever bought new were tyres and when the knobbly treads wore down on the left they turned it as the unworn side was still perfect for the anti-clockwise tracks.
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On holiday in France this summer I saw a guy on a cyclocross bike going hell for leather on the beach at low tide. Right down by the receded water's edge in the wet but slightly harder sand. Quite impressive. I guess he had to go fast or he'd have dug in. I couldn't make my mind up whether the dog running behind was his or whether it was chasing him ! In either event the beach had signs banning both cycling and dogs so there were a few possible scenarios I suppose.
;-)
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Every beach I've been on in France has had a No Dogs sign. And dogs. I presume something similar applies to bikes.
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The French are not renown for obeying signs.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 30 Oct 14 at 20:40
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>> All banter aside ROR, road biking has never appealed to me. Not as a hobby
>> anyway. I'll ride on the road for practical reasons without hesitation but it just doesn't
>> float my boat to do it for fun.
>>
Me too, mainly I don't ride roads for pleasure because of the potholes on our wonderful Surrey roads.
>> The reward, for me anyway, of a long off road climb is the descent. It
>> has sort of replaced skiing for me now that I live somewhere where that is
>> more impractical to maintain as a regular hobby.
>>
Skiing is the sport in which our kids surpassed my 'skill level' long before they were 15. 5 more like!
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>>
>> Skiing is the sport in which our kids surpassed my 'skill level' long before they
>> were 15. 5 more like!
>>
One of our kids did not ski as a kid but took up snowboarding after she married. They thought they were cool dudes and were somewhat surprised when they were unable to come anywhere near to our ski pace. We did have several years of ski holidays advantage though. Now the grandkids would be good competition if we still skied.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29894590
Quite a long article looking at and expanding on some of issues covered in the Boardman thread.
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>> Just every now and again the yanks hit a home run..............
>>
>> www.etsy.com/listing/88282099/bicycle-wine-rack-black-leather-bike?ref=related-1
Note though that it needs a British saddle for the full 'look'.
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>> >> Just every now and again the yanks hit a home run..............
>> >>
(coughs politely) Last time I looked Montreal was in Canada. You trying to start a diplomatic incident? ;-)
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>> Last time I looked Montreal was in Canada. You trying to start a diplomatic incident?
Did you notice the name of the company selling it?
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That's no good at all!!
The wine will be shaken up and the sediment in a good red will need far too long to settle again. But then what do Yanks (or Canadians) know about fine wine, eh?
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Quite a lot actually. Some of the world's finest wines are madei the USA. Most of the good stuff never makes it over here. Canadian wine is surpringly good too but seldom ever seen here.
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I lived in Napa for a couple of years, they have some stunningly good wines. I did my best to reduce their stocks, but they won in the end.
Also; The French wine blight of 1850 or so was caused by an aphid from North America. It devastated the vines which had no resistance. Eventually the solution was to merge the European and North American strains to produce a single resistant result.
They're not as different as you think.
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Or graft Vitis Vinifera (the European vine) onto phylloxera resistant American root-stocks, which is how they do it in France. Chile seems to have escaped the blight, so can grow vines on their own roots.
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lcc.org.uk/articles/london-cyclists-object-to-stay-back-command-on-lorries-and-buses
I've just heard a debate about this on the JV show at lunchtime.
Reading the letter in the thread just makes me realise it is the mind set of city cyclist at fault and nothing will ever change until that changes.
They object, among other things, because it is worded as a command.
Well, wake up and smell the coffee cyclist, you are a road user and such we ALL have command on the form of 'Halt' 'Stop' and 'No Entry' signs to comply with in our daily commutes.
I do realise these signs are alien to cyclists and they totally ignore, them but perhaps it's time to tackle their attitude to their own immortality rather than any other road user, or organisation, trying to help keep them safe.
Equality comes at a price, it means cyclists have to comply with the bits they don't like as well as the bits they do.
Pat
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>> lcc.org.uk/articles/london-cyclists-object-to-stay-back-command-on-lorries-and-buses
>> Well, wake up and smell the coffee cyclist, you are a road user and such
>> we ALL have command on the form of 'Halt' 'Stop' and 'No Entry' signs to
>> comply with in our daily commutes.
>> Pat
However, the sign on the back of a bus or lorry has no authority in law.
So, wake up and smell the coffee, lorry driver.
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You've lost me there Duncan...
Of course, I realise that....so why do they object to it 'as a command'?
If the cyclists are that fragile they can 'take offence' at a sign like that, then they can't be the same ones who let out a tirade of foul mouthed abuse at me when I pip my hooter at them to indicate I am turning left, as they ride up my inside.
Surely they should welcome any, and all, signs to raise awareness of them to other road users, and of other road users to them?
Pat
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Pat,
Warnings on back of LGVs etc were originally intended to cover the issue with the nearside of big trucks. In central London that's mostly the tip/skip construction service vehicles we've talked about many times before. Artics obviously present the same danger but are less common in the areas of London where accidents have been most frequent.
There were perfectly adequate signs available to alert riders to that risk.
What we now have is 'stay back' as pictured in article you link. Whether by design or accident they appear to deter (in your words prohibit) ANY passing manoeuvre including perfectly safe offside overtakes. Furthermore they're not just on on trucks or buses, I've seen them on Berlingo sized vans.
The objection is not to the stay safe principle but to a Health and Safety gone mad mission creep on part of TfL.
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>> they appear to deter (in your words prohibit)<<
Where did I say 'prohibit'?
Their objection is made clear in objection number 4 of the letter.
You cannot help those who are not prepared to help themselves.
....and so the chasm and resentment widens.
Pat
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>> >> they appear to deter (in your words prohibit)<<
>>
>> Where did I say 'prohibit'?
>>
>> Their objection is made clear in objection number 4 of the letter.
>>
>> You cannot help those who are not prepared to help themselves.
>>
>> ....and so the chasm and resentment widens.
>>
>> Pat
Sorry, wasn't looking closely enough at your OP. The word you adopted 'command' was form the letter, but you went on to place it in same bracket as prescriptive road signs.
Objection number 4 needs to be read in context of whole letter. A 'command' to stay back in all circs and on light vans as well as LGV/bus sized vehicles is overkill. What's needed is what we had already - a specific warning of the lethal dangers of the nearside. A generic warning/command actually dilutes that.
No chasm or resentment in my part, just head shaking at TfL's overstretch to deal with a specific problem.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 15:20
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>>A 'command' to stay back in all circs and on light vans as well as LGV/bus sized vehicles is overkill. <<
Why is it overkill if it prevented an accident, and as it hasn't been tried yet, you don't know that it won't.
How much time would that cost the few cyclists who may take notice of it?
Why shouldn't cyclist 'stay back' in the orderly queue of vehicles?
It's not about that at all, it's about being asked to compromise and conform to the rules of the road we all have to adhere to.
It's about an authority, any authority, actually trying to address the problem in a fair manner. Simply because it imposes some responsibility on the cyclist to do something we all have to do, it's opposed.
Cyclists need to realise that signs in red circles are mandatory to them as well as al other road users.
Signs in red triangles are advisory, again, to them as well as all other road users.
Any other type of sign is advisory......and wise road users take a lot of notice of them.
Pat
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Pat,
I'm not getting involved in a debate phrased in terms of your prejudices about how 'cyclists' behave (eg cyclists need to realise that signs in red circles are mandatory to them as well as other road users).
However, to address a few specifics:
I cannot improve on London Cycling Campaign's letter as to why this sign is inappropriate. As I've already said my personal concern is that, by being generic rather than specific, it dilutes the message about nearsides which is where death lurks.
The fact that sign is spreading to light van fleets suggests to me that some managers think it might give them a 'get out' when their employees cause hook or dooring type accidents.
The reason why cyclists don't stay back in an orderly queue is one that must be obvious to you as a motorcyclist - it's raison d'etre stuff. There's no rule of the road that stops a m/c overtaking or filtering and TfL shouldn't be inventing one for cyclists.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 16:27
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Some motor cyclists commit suicide by stupidity, some cyclists commit suicide by stupidity but use a lorry, unfortunately cyclists involve a lorry driver.
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That's exactly what I mean about a city cyclists mind set....faced with a logical reason for something they 'don't want to get into a debate and accuse me of prejudice!!!
>>The fact that sign is spreading to light van fleets suggests to me that some managers think it might give them a 'get out' when their employees cause hook or dooring type accidents. <<
Of course, it wouldn't occur to you that a good manager seeks to reduce accidents and thus, insurance premiums?
Pat
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>> That's exactly what I mean about a city cyclists mind set....faced with a logical reason
>> for something they 'don't want to get into a debate and accuse me of prejudice!!!
There's no logical reason to not pass a stopped bus or van on the offside. As we've established before it's far safer than creeping between nearside and gutter. TfL should recognise that fact and withdraw/amend the sign. All I meant about debate was I'm not doing the yah/boo stuff about running red lights and counter it with equally unsupported assertions of my own about the construction industry
>> >>The fact that sign is spreading to light van fleets suggests to me that some
>> managers think it might give them a 'get out' when their employees cause hook or
>> dooring type accidents. <<
>>
>> Of course, it wouldn't occur to you that a good manager seeks to reduce accidents
>> and thus, insurance premiums?
I'm not stupid of course they do. But if they try to do so by adding a sign they can point to after saying 'SMIDSY' and claim it's your own fault then that would be quite wrong.
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>> But if they try to do so by adding a sign they can point to after saying 'SMIDSY' and claim it's your own fault then that would be quite wrong. <<
It would demonstrate to a court and Traffic Commissioner hearing that they'd taken 'due diligence' and it would prove to the insurance company they had taken all available preventative action for avoiding the situation.
If it helps to prevent an accident surely the indignant attitude referred to by some is worth it...it's only pride, after all.
Pat
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If a car squeezes up the inside of a truck, on a road where there is only one lane, is that allowed? Or on the outside, for that matter.
Now obviously there is more likely to be room for a bicycle than a car and thus it is more likely to happen, but is it allowed? For both, neither or one of them?
I have driven in London and I've cycled in London (although not nearly as much as Bromp, for example). IMO cyclists do a million times more stupid stuff than truck drivers. Or any other driver for that matter. About 10 millions times more illegal things.
Its just that a bicycle doing something bad simply doesn't have the same implications as a truck driver doing it.
This current campaign is just silly cyclists being silly.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 17:19
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>> If a car squeezes up the inside of a truck, on a road where there
>> is only one lane, is that allowed? Or on the outside, for that matter.
>>
>> Now obviously there is more likely to be room for a bicycle than a car
>> and thus it is more likely to happen, but is it allowed? For both, neither
>> or one of them?
Going nearside is risky whatever your means of transport. I don't think though the presence of lane markings is definitive for cars never mind two wheelers whether powered or not. There are junctions round here where one lane is wide enough for left and right turning traffic to separate and loads of places where two wheel traffic can filter past slow/stopped cars>truck sized stuff.
No laws are broken even if the centre line is crossed.
>> I have driven in London and I've cycled in London (although not nearly as much
>> as Bromp, for example). IMO cyclists do a million times more stupid stuff than truck
>> drivers. Or any other driver for that matter. About 10 millions times more illegal things.
Cyclists do stuff they shouldn't like any other road user. Some such as RLJ and skimming pedestrians on crossings are obviously illegal and stupid as well as dangerous. Others, like following a nice green bike lane into the nearside left turn death zone or entering an ASL box into a skip truck's blind spot are not as apparent as we experienced and aged motorists would like to think.
And that scenario ignores the passing truck you suddenly realise is losing in you and squashing you agaist the junctions 'safety' railings.
>> Its just that a bicycle doing something bad simply doesn't have the same implications as
>> a truck driver doing it.
Obviously and that leads policing priorities.
>> This current campaign is just silly cyclists being silly.
See Manatee's explanation below.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 20:19
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>> The objection is not to the stay safe principle but to a Health and Safety
>> gone mad mission creep on part of TfL.
FFS its a warning message!
What we have here is your inability to accept ANY part of cyclists responsibilities for their own safety.
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>>FFS its a warning message!
And its value on a light van is what?
>> What we have here is your inability to accept ANY part of cyclists responsibilities for
>> their own safety.
If you'd bother to look back I've never evaded cyclist's responsibility for their own safety. I do though try and focus debate on what actually matters and away from supposition and prejudice.
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>>And its value on a light van is what?<<
Exactly what I've posted above.
Accident prevention.
Pat
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Islington where I've just been for 3 days is bike country. There are about a hundred Boris bikes in racks just round the corner from where we were staying. They all seemed to be there at 10.30 this morning... perhaps the truck had been round replenishing the racks.
There's a cycle lane all the way along the snaking narrow road along the ridge, Amwell St - Penton St, etc. all the way to Pentonville jail on the Caledonian Road. No doubt Bromptonaut will know it. My favourite nephew lives just round the corner from that end, not in the jail though! The cycle-path is marked out separately from the carriageway but they intertwine for much of the distance, with speed cushions and tight bollards menacing motor vehicles. Always a pleasure to see a big white Sprinter/Transit-type van belting through all that and bouncing into the air at high speed. London van and taxi drivers are a specialized species. Not like the utter onanists pratting about very slowly in Addison Lee people carriers. My heart sinks when I come up behind one of those. Can't get out of their own way.
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>> speed cushions and tight bollards menacing motor vehicles
Virtually all the speed cushions have been repeatedly gouged by people's sump drain plugs, front subframe bolts and so on. I've never hit one despite the jalopy's nose-down stance, but I did in the past, and had to cope with resulting damage too - bent and jiggered sump plug among other things, destroy a socket and bend a long tommy bar...
But I worry about the inside of the tyre treads getting savagely worn in the way HJ, that prophet of doom, alleges they will if one takes the easy way over the awful things. God local authorities are ghastly.
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Filtering is permissible: wishing it away won't do. Some is more risky (on the inside of trucks) but some is not. Putting signs up is not an accident reduction measure! Especially signs that are missing the point.
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How many of the cyclists posting here have driven rigid and articulated lorries in urban areas ?
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>> How many of the cyclists posting here have driven rigid and articulated lorries in urban
>> areas ?
Licensing is an obvious hurdle there ON!!
Never driven anything bigger than a Merc Sprinter to move daughter and her beau. Only urban bits were segments of Southampton and Plymouth. As a cyclist though I was well aware of how much the rear of a long van ran tight on corners.
I've also had the opportunity to sit in cab of a tip/skip truck. Keltbray occasionally make on available at bike shows and at roadside safety exhibitions.
To reverse question, how many truckers have ridden a bike in urban or rural roads where proximity of large vehicles is an issue.
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I have done both the lorry and the bike bit. Even in a car I don't get alongside a lorry on a roundabout, any driver only has one pair of eyes. There is no way I would get alongside a lorry bus or van on a bike, if it goes wrong there is only one loser.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 18:19
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>> >> How many of the cyclists posting here have driven rigid and articulated lorries in
>> urban
>> >> areas ?
>>
>> Licensing is an obvious hurdle there ON!!
>>
>> Never driven anything bigger than a Merc Sprinter to move daughter and her beau.
>>
You have a very one sided view of the subject then.
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>> You have a very one sided view of the subject then.
Do I need to handle a supertanker before taking a dinghy beyond the Beaulieu river?
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Typical answer, it demonstrates the arrogant cyclists view that only their progress has priority regardless of other road users.
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Bromptonaut, and the objectors, are absolutely right about this ill-conceived stickers.
It's not a case of "every little helps". What it appears to do is to put any cyclist passing a stationary vehicle displaying one of these in the wrong, and by implication absolve the driver of at least some of his responsibility for taking proper care.
Nobody can seriously be suggesting that cycles should not be able to progress sensibly through gridlocked or crawling traffic? And yet that is what these stickers appear to do.
The attack on the objectors here, or at least some of it, is I am afraid symptomatic of the what I referred to recently as 'passive hostility' to cycling that is very widespread and feeds on every apparent case of a cyclist seen on a pavement, not in a cycle lane, or running a red light.
I've spent a lot of time in Cambridge recently (driving) and it struck me yesterday as I was muttering about a cyclist on Milton Road, southbound, using the pavement on the approach to the junction with Union Lane.
My daughter, who cycles that route regularly, made the point that is often a good reason for that sort of thing. In this case, the cyclists are supposed to share the bus lane; but there is no room for buses to pass cycles safely so what happens is either that a timid cyclist rides in the gutter and risks being closed passed (and potentially falling under the bus if they wobble) or the cyclist rides centre lane and as often as not gets the bus following aggressively a few feet behind.
Looking down the other end of the telescope is something all parties can usefully do from time to time.
I noticed that on the other side of Milton Road there is a shared path for cycles and peds. I necessitates the cyclist crossing all the joining roads just like the peds - so, surprise surprise, the quicker cyclists are on the road if they are going up towards the Science Park.
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How very well put Manatee. I particularly like your "passive hostility" observation, it does exactly summarise my take on the subject.
While we have a brief opportunity to theorise on the sociology or psychology, I do wonder sometimes if there is a latent need or tendency in some to feel superior or outraged or threatened or indeed choose your own reaction, to groups of which they are not a member.
It's not so long ago that racism, sexism and any number of other isms were openly displayed in public whereas now most of the higher profile manifestations of those have, if not been eradicated, at least been driven underground.
So what does the natural tribalist do now to vent his or her spleen? They have to find another minority group to despise and revile.
It's just a sadly all too common human failing to forget that people are just people who may happen to be involved in a given activity at the time. In any group you get a mixture of good, bad, sensible and foolish, intelligent and stupid and all points in between.
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>> It's not so long ago that racism, sexism and any number of other isms were
>> openly displayed in public whereas now most of the higher profile manifestations of those have,
>> if not been eradicated, at least been driven underground.
>>
>> So what does the natural tribalist do now to vent his or her spleen? They
>> have to find another minority group to despise and revile.
Like fatties?
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>> It's not a case of "every little helps".
of course it is.
>>What it appears to do is to
>> put any cyclist passing a stationary vehicle displaying one of these in the wrong, and
>> by implication absolve the driver of at least some of his responsibility for taking proper
>> care.
complete r*******. It absolves no-one of anything, especially in court where it would be meaningless, but it does remind cyclist of their responsibilities to ride defensively not aggressively
>> Nobody can seriously be suggesting that cycles should not be able to progress sensibly through
>> gridlocked or crawling traffic? And yet that is what these stickers appear to do.
Sensibly - far too many aggressive cyclists around. Specially those with go-pros searching for trouble to get into.
>> The attack on the objectors here, or at least some of it, is I am
>> afraid symptomatic of the what I referred to recently as 'passive hostility' to cycling that
>> is very widespread and feeds on every apparent case of a cyclist seen on a
>> pavement, not in a cycle lane, or running a red light.
Its caused by cycling militancy demanding special rights. Ones they don't pay for.
The fact they are complaining about something designed to save their lives speaks volumes to me.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 20:42
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>> >>FFS its a warning message!
>>
>> And its value on a light van is what?
Oh sorry, didn't realise light vans only turn right.
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>> And its value on a light van is what?
>>
>>
It would be of more value as a van driver probably has not had any training beyond a car licence.
It seems it is a bit beyond a cyclists comprehension though.
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>> It would be of more value as a van driver probably has not had any
>> training beyond a car licence.
>>
>> It seems it is a bit beyond a cyclists comprehension though.
A Berlingo sized van, whether driven by a 17yo who passed car test yesterday or by a Class 1 HGV driver, doesn't have extensive blind spots, still less several feet of trail on inside of a turn.
But don't let anything stand in way of your massive blind prejudice against cyclists.
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>> Oh sorry, didn't realise light vans only turn right.
Of course they do but given they're like cars it's not a problem is it?
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You have to get properly past a cyclist before turning left across them, or if you can't do that hang back until they're out of the way. It's not always an easy decision because so many of them go so damn fast!
One assumes of course that drivers of long or articulated vehicles look in all their mirrors before doing anything. But no HGV driver, or even car driver, can save a suicidal cyclist from himself (I imagine women are more rational as cyclists). You do your best of course, but cyclists provide a lot of 'moments' in London for example. Not Bromptonaut I'm sure. Just cyclists.
:o}
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 20:31
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>> >> Oh sorry, didn't realise light vans only turn right.
>>
>> Of course they do but given they're like cars it's not a problem is it?
>>
What did you say earlier about a Sprinter?
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>> >> >> Oh sorry, didn't realise light vans only turn right.
>> >>
>> >> Of course they do but given they're like cars it's not a problem is
>> it?
>> >>
>>
>> What did you say earlier about a Sprinter?
As you well know I was talking car derived vans/van derived cars. LWB Transit/Sprinter class vehicles are not light vans.
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>> >> Oh sorry, didn't realise light vans only turn right.
>>
>> Of course they do but given they're like cars it's not a problem is it?
Apart from the lack of windows and rear view mirror you mean?
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>> Apart from the lack of windows and rear view mirror you mean?
Our Berlingos both have massive door mirrors. So big I can almost legitimately tow the caravan without extensions. No issue at all driving with car type rvm obstructed.
Other vans are same.
Even complete absence of mirrors is no excuse for lack of observation.
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Well i do my best to save your life even if you don't care - refusal to wear hi viz and a helmet - because its your right, decrying any attempts to warn cyclists because - because of what? I haven't worked that out - just "because" it seems.
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I think its fair to say that there have been 15 volumes of this thread and its time to accept that there are differing attitudes towards cyclists and these are never going to be agreed on.
As a commuter cyclist I wear my hivis, helmet and obey most road signs and junctions. But I see plenty who don't and this annoys me but each to their own.
I think that as with anything in life, people need to take responsibility for their own actions and that includes cyclists. I don't have any issue with these signs at all, my only concern would be there will be bad drivers who will think that sticker on their vehicle absolves them from any blame when they take out a cyclist.
I just wish that UK as a whole could embrace the cycle culture better and actually start to make dedicated city cycle paths to encourage more on the road. But it would take guts to change this as there would be a huge impact on vehicular traffic where there is no expansion space away from the existing road.
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>> Well i do my best to save your life even if you don't care -
>> refusal to wear hi viz and a helmet - because its your right, decrying any
>> attempts to warn cyclists because - because of what? I haven't worked that out -
>> just "because" it seems.
I'm proud to be a helmet refusenik. The idea that polycarbonate+polystyrene will save my life, or even my sanity, in more than a tiny number of scenarios is a laughable triumph of marketing over common sense.
On hi-viz I'm more nuanced than you suggest but you can see for yourself it's hardly viz at all under most forms of street lighting.
On other warnings I'll take a view based on my own experience.
'Overtake a slow/stationery British Gas van and you'll die' falls at the first fence.
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mega snip quote for the lazy one
>> 'Overtake a slow/stationery British Gas van and you'll die' falls at the first fence.
Really doesn't need any response from me. I can't sum up your ridiculous attitude any better than you just have. I'll leave it there.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 21:30
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>> Really doesn't need any response from me. I can't sum up your ridiculous attitude any
>> better than you just have. I'll leave it there.
So, as you can't say which of my propositions don't stand up, you prefer to resort to the dismissive?
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As I said, no further response from me required.
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>> mega snip quote for the lazy one
you power crazed megalomanic you.
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>>I'm proud to be a helmet refusenik. The idea that polycarbonate+polystyrene will save my life, or even my sanity, in more than a tiny number of scenarios is a laughable triumph of marketing over common sense.
I just don't get this - I never go out without my helmet - even if it is never brought into action its surely not causing any bother? My brother's life was saved by his cycle helmet, so the surgeon told him.
In over 40 years of being transported in vehicles, and in over 27 years of driving, I have never once had to call on my seatbelt to save me. I would never get in a car without putting one on though.
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>> I just don't get this - I never go out without my helmet - even
>> if it is never brought into action its surely not causing any bother? My brother's
>> life was saved by his cycle helmet, so the surgeon told him.
If you're happier wearing one then that's dandy; no wish to dissuade you. Personally I find them uncomfortable and restrictive of both vision and hearing. I knew one cyclist personally who suffered personality changing head injury but he'd cycled almost literally around the world and was desperately unlucky just once on a ride he did day in and out.
With respect to your brother's surgeon I suspect he knew more about the cranium than the real characteristics of a polystyrene hat.
>> In over 40 years of being transported in vehicles, and in over 27 years of
>> driving, I have never once had to call on my seatbelt to save me. I
>> would never get in a car without putting one on though.
Ditto. But there's no comparison in either wearer comfort or risk averted between a bike helmet and a seat belt, even static type of our youth never mind modern inertia reel/pre tension+air bag jobbies in cars we drive today.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 22:07
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>>Personally I find them uncomfortable and restrictive of both vision and hearing
Seriously? When was the last time you tried a helmet on - it does not cover your ears and if fitted properly has absolutely no impact on your vision either?
I have heard various arguments against wearing helmets but never have I heard they reduce hearing or vision!! I am genuinely gobsmacked at that!
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>> I have heard various arguments against wearing helmets but never have I heard they reduce
>> hearing or vision!! I am genuinely gobsmacked at that!
Seriously? you only need to look back up these threads or the Boardman one for similar accounts.
To recap - I've never found one where periphery of helmet and/or straps were not in periphery off my field of vision. Whether it's straps shifting my ear lobes or airflow round the helmet itself they also have at least a subliminal effect on my hearing.
Even best ventilated soon get hot underneath stopped or on climbs - hence why professional riders were allowed to remove them on mountain stages for several years after they were mandated for road races.
The straps need to be under my glasses so every time helmet is on or off I first need first to remove specs. Apart from inconvenience that's doubling wear on expensive frame hinges. And I'd have left the damn thing on train at least twice a year if attrition of coffee flasks is any sort of example.
And all for what is at best a marginal benefit.
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I am also a glasses wearer - bought prescription cycling glasses which have proved to be quite durable!
Was fed up seeing all these cyclists with their sleek shades and me with my bog standard prescription glasses!
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>> Was fed up seeing all these cyclists with their sleek shades and me with my
>> bog standard prescription glasses!
Found the b/s ones OK for keeping dirt and insects at bay. Aviator style frames, worn since my teens, probably help.
I'm also fortunate in that my short sight and astigmatism are mild enough that riding without glasses is an option when caught out in the rain.
Worrying bit though is that I can, with a bit of squinting, read a numberplate at requisite distance without specs. Idea of driving a car at at 30, never mind M/way speeds, with that limitation is truly alarming.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 6 Nov 14 at 22:54
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>>I'm also fortunate in that my short sight and astigmatism are mild enough that riding without glasses is an option when caught out in the rain.
The peak on my helmet effectively keeps my specs dry.
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>>The peak on my helmet effectively keeps my specs dry
same with mine but I also carry this to wear if the rain is really bucketing it down. It fits under the helmet easily
www.decathlon.co.uk/rain-cap-id_8281752.html
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>> Even complete absence of mirrors is no excuse for lack of observation.
Quite right. You have to move your head and look about you. There are always blind spots even with modern big door mirrors.
When I were a nipper there were 'wing mirrors', useless damn things. And a small floppy interior mirror.
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Stupid - Harleyman
