Non-motoring > Corbyn - Volume 3
Thread Author: VxFan Replies: 85

 Corbyn - Volume 3 - VxFan

Continuing Discussion

561652
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 20 Feb 18 at 10:27
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Bromptonaut
www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/jun/08/general-election-results-2017-uk-live-labour-tories-corbyn-may-election-results-live-news-line

Oh dear, how sad, what a pity, never mind.
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Bromptonaut
So she went for a landslide and ended up with no/smaller majority.

Is PMSL a good reason for taking a sickie tomorrow?
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - sooty123
If the exit polls are right of course.
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - riddler
Definitely serves Mrs Bean right for her stupidity and arrogance.

About as strong and stable as jelly,
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - zippy
Celebrations at UKIP headquarters were short lived when they realised that exit poles aren't exit Poles!
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Lygonos
One must expect the postal voters who put in their cards before May imploded will skew the final polls towards the Blue end of the spectrum.

Presumably, however, if she doesn't get a bit of a bigger majority she will fall on her sword and be replaced by BoJo?

Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 8 Jun 17 at 22:36
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - CGNorwich
Hope she's feeling strong and stable.
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Hard Cheese
Shame DC resigned as an MP, it would be good to have him back ...
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Thu 8 Jun 17 at 23:01
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Manatee
>> Shame DC resigned as an MP, it would be good to have him back ...

As the one who created this mess with his cynical referendum, I don't think they'd have him.
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Manatee
Too soon to say. ISTR it all changing direction well into the count on a previous occasion.

If it is true, or even nearly true, I'd guess she's dead meat. The Conservatives have no mercy with their failed leaders, and by all accounts she had few actual friends even before the awful campaign.
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - sooty123
The Conservatives
>> have no mercy with their failed leaders, and by all accounts she had few actual
>> friends even before the awful campaign.
>>

That's true they seem to me to be ruthless, generally speaking, with those that fail or are weak leaders.
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Zero
>> One must expect the postal voters who put in their cards before May imploded will
>> skew the final polls towards the Blue end of the spectrum.
>>
>> Presumably, however, if she doesn't get a bit of a bigger majority she will fall
>> on her sword and be replaced by BoJo?

Bojo? well at least it would make Trump look better.

Looks like the SNP woman got her ass kicked
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 8 Jun 17 at 23:31
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Robin O'Reliant
May ran the most disasterous campaign I can ever remember (Apart from Foot that is) and she got what she deserved. No way can I see her leading the Tories into the next election, which is bound to come sooner rather than later.

But neither is Corbyn likely to be PM unless he engineers a fair sized shift in policy. He got quite a large "He doesn't seem like a bad bloke after all" vote because of the measured way he conducted himself and the stupid way the current government did, but because no one expected him to have a prayer his spending plans were not scrutinised forensically where they would have shown some gaping holes.

In the longer term (Despite the immediate chaos) it is a good result for democracy and for the population in general. Like Trump in America and the Brexit result here, whatever you think of either, the cosy establishment elite got a severe kicking from the electorate, reminding them not to take people for granted because it will come back to bite them hard.
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Zero

>> In the longer term (Despite the immediate chaos) it is a good result for democracy
>> and for the population in general. Like Trump in America and the Brexit result here,
>> whatever you think of either, the cosy establishment elite got a severe kicking from the
>> electorate, reminding them not to take people for granted because it will come back to
>> bite them hard.

Even tho we broke our teeth biting them
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - No FM2R
>> the cosy establishment elite got a severe kicking from the
>> electorate, reminding them not to take people for granted because it will come back to bite them hard.

I'd like to think you were right, but regrettably I doubt it

The electorate as a whole has a stunningly short memory, little ability to look behind the rhetoric and a shameful lack of understanding of the issues.

And the politicians know that.
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Dutchie
The only time people are not taken for granted when a revolution arises.

The French are good at that when they kicked the bourgeois out.Otherwise it is business as usual keep squeezing the sheep.
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - Manatee
You've got it Dutchie;)
 Exit Polls Say Hung Parliament - The Melting Snowman
>>Looks like the SNP woman got her ass kicked

Long overdue and a shame I couldn't assist in the process.
 change in austerity - sooty123
Its hard to say how much influence JC has had with the latest focus on public sector pay and more widely with austerity, but I don't think there'd be the focus on this right now without him. Of course you could say he's tapping into public sentiment that was there anyway. Putting aside whether you like him or not or what you think of his policies he's certainly changed the latest political debate to something more of his own choosing/area of safer ground for him.
That's not bad for someone not long ago thought of as a political disaster, I wonder if anyone in the labour MPs thought they'd be where they are now last year?
 change in austerity - Cliff Pope
True, but I don't suppose he manoeuvred the focus round to the issue of the single market, and having to bring out into the open the fact that Labour policy is to withdraw from it.
So far he's been trying to have it both ways - attracting lots of support from the anti-brexit young, while at the same time having to keep on side the majority who voted out.
 change in austerity - sooty123
No but walking a fine line is nothing new, most parties have a wide range of views. Of course no one has the ability to control the latest thing.
I wasn't really worried his policies in particular, more about how he is seen by his party and the voters at large.
 change in austerity - Aretas

The Book of Jeremy Corbin:

tinyurl.com/y9goggth
 change in austerity - zippy
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40697326

Shock, horror! (Not!)

 change in austerity - Manatee
Not a surprise at all...he never said they would write it all off. But it will have to be dealt with, since a great deal of it will never be repaid anyway, so what was the point of that?

If it's a graduate tax, it should have been called that. But that would have prevented governments 'selling' lumps of it (at even greater cost to the taxpayer).

Successive governments are locked into a cycle of competing with each other at finding new ways to fiddle the public finances. In that respect, it makes little difference who you vote for. But when the bribes are going to wealthy capitalists, it makes no sense for people living on wages to vote Conservative:)
 change in austerity - No FM2R
>> But when the bribes are going to wealthy capitalists, it makes no sense for people living on wages to vote Conservative:)

If you vote Labour the bribes go to the poor and homeless?
 change in austerity - Manatee

>> If you vote Labour the bribes go to the poor and homeless?

Correct:)

And some would say that is preferable. At least they spend it. The rich just lend it, at interest.
 some questions - sooty123
observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/

Looks like corbyn might have a few to answer at the weekend.
 some questions - Bromptonaut
>> observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/
>>
>> Looks like corbyn might have a few to answer at the weekend.

That's an American site reporting an allegation aired in The Sun and which Corbyn has explained. Yes he met diplomats from Iron Curtain Countries. Those who were part of their country's intelligence network might have been other enthusiastic in reporting their successes.

And of course, like his 'controversial' links with Irish Republicans, this stuff's ancient history to voters under 30.
 some questions - sooty123
That's an American site reporting an allegation aired in The Sun and which Corbyn has explained. Yes he met diplomats from Iron Curtain Countries. Those who were part of their> country's intelligence network might have been other enthusiastic in reporting their successes.

I'm not sure what relevance where the report comes from. I'm sure it was wholly innocent, probably discussing trade union rights behind the iron curtain or some such.


>> And of course, like his 'controversial' links with Irish Republicans, this stuff's ancient history to
>> voters under 30.

So...
 some questions - Bromptonaut
>> I'm not sure what relevance where the report comes from. I'm sure it was wholly
>> innocent, probably discussing trade union rights behind the iron curtain or some such.

Do you thin we cab trust the Sun to report matters about Corbyn impartially? At the time I wrote the message this morning even the Mail hadn't picked it up but this afternoon I saw they'd lead on it today. Seems pretty thin gruel though relying on one long retired Slovak diplomat/undercover agent who's story has suddenly emerged.

Or maybe, like the Oxfam story, it's something that's as old as the hills but is suddenly newsworthy because it suits someone's current agenda.


 some questions - smokie
The Oxfam CEO made some very brave comments in an interview, with which I happen to sympathise with quite strongly. I doubt he'll win friends by saying it though.

One bit was "Anything we say is being manipulated: ‘Oxfam’s still making excuses, still trying to justify itself.’ I went on the Today programme on the first day and tried to explain and it totally failed. All it did was fuel the fire.” Every explanation he’s tried to offer has been branded an excuse “and just failed in the court of public opinion. "

And another was “The intensity and the ferocity of the attack makes you wonder, what did we do? We murdered babies in their cots? Certainly, the scale and the intensity of the attacks feels out of proportion to the level of culpability. "
 some questions - sooty123
> Do you thin we cab trust the Sun to report matters about Corbyn impartially? At> the time I wrote the message this morning even the Mail hadn't picked it up but this afternoon I saw they'd lead on it today. Seems pretty thin gruel though> relying on one long retired Slovak diplomat/undercover agent who's story has suddenly emerged.

The link i provided wasn't exactly a copy and paste job from the Sun. Seemed a pretty good summary to me.




> Or maybe, like the Oxfam story, it's something that's as old as the hills but
>> is suddenly newsworthy because it suits someone's current agenda.

Well it's from an archive so this type of thing often takes a long time to surface.
 some questions - Bromptonaut

>> The link i provided wasn't exactly a copy and paste job from the Sun. Seemed
>> a pretty good summary to me.

Not a copy paste job but it takes the Sun's report as truth and extrapolates to make Corbyn an agent of foreign powers. For me that's a leap too far.

>> > Or maybe, like the Oxfam story, it's something that's as old as the hills
>> but
>> >> is suddenly newsworthy because it suits someone's current agenda.
>>
>> Well it's from an archive so this type of thing often takes a long time
>> to surface.

Which doesn't answer why stuff from 2011, that was dealt with at time, is suddenly newsworthy in 2018
 some questions - sooty123
> Which doesn't answer why stuff from 2011, that was dealt with at time, is suddenly
>> newsworthy in 2018
>>

I think the fact it came from an archive is fairly reasonable, it's not like it's unheard of. I can't say I ever saw it crop up in 2011 but the main reason would be obviously he was a nobody in 2011. Who really would have heard of him back then, very few.
 some questions - Zero

>> And of course, like his 'controversial' links with Irish Republicans, this stuff's ancient history to
>> voters under 30.

Corbyn is a "back to the traditional roots of the labour party" leader. Its traditional for them to be communist lackeys or spies.
 some questions - Manatee
Communist lackeys and spies, or capitalist running dogs and tax evaders, take your pick:)

Or St. Vince of Cable. Don't hear much about him these days.
 some questions - Haywain
If you're quick, you'll catch the Matt cartoon on today's Telegraph online.
 some questions - Dutchie
Be interesting how the local May elections will go.

Corbyn a spy? Don't look the type to me but what do I know.
 some questions - Duncan

>> Corbyn a spy? Don't look the type to me
>>

What do they look like?

Blunt?

Philby?

Lenin??

McLean?

Burgess?

Cairncross?
 some questions - Cliff Pope


Spot the odd one out.



>>
>> Blunt?
>>
>> Philby?
>>
>> Lenin??
>>
>> McLean?
>>
>> Burgess?
>>
>> Cairncross?
>>




Lenin. The others were all spies.
 some questions - Zero

>> Lenin. The others were all spies.

Its is postulated that Lenin was a German agent.
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - sooty123
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

Accusation of anti-semitism still follows him.
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - smokie
I am not a Corbyn fan but I do have some sympathy for the targets when stuff gets dredged up and can easily be skewed to suit an agenda. It is so easy for folk to pick holes and find unintended meanings, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

I've no idea if that's what has happened here however.
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Dutchie
I tend to agree with you smokie.

Any dirt throwing at Corbyn is the name of the game at this moment in time.Maybe fear of the local elections coming up in May.

Corbyn is a socialist not a soft Tory like Blair was.You either take to him or not.

Watching a program this morning more than three million pensioners on the poverty line that is nothing to be proud of under this government.Corbyn might have a strong opinion on the policies of the Israeli government but accuse him of racism no.
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Zero
On the whole (ok there are exceptions as there are for everything) left wing political movements and the jewish community are mutually incompatible. The more left wing the Labour Party leans, the more critical the jewish movement becomes, and the more critical of the jewish movement the Labour Party is.

Its not a uk thing, its a global phenomena.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 27 Mar 18 at 13:18
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Bromptonaut
>> On the whole (ok there are exceptions as there are for everything) left wing political
>> movements and the jewish community are mutually incompatible. The more left wing the Labour Party
>> leans, the more critical the jewish movement becomes, and the more critical of the jewish
>> movement the Labour Party is.

Suspect that's broadly correct now.

Historically the Labour party has had strong ties with Israel - Labour Friends of Israel was a large interest group in the seventies. More recently with failures of the peace process the left has become increasingly concerned with the rights of the Palestinians.

Similar with Democrats in US.
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - sooty123
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45027582

Seems an issue labour and JC just can't get away from or resolve.
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Bromptonaut
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45027582
>>
>> Seems an issue labour and JC just can't get away from or resolve.

I'm sure there are a minority in party who are if not happy then at least content to follow the hook nosed banker meme when attacking capitalism. That's bad and should be stamped on

OTOH the 'Corbyn as existentialist threat to UK Jewish Community' headline is nonsense.

JC, rightly or wrongly, identifies with the Palestinians. Israel must be worried about a man with those views commanding a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

Much of the brouhaha is around that issue rather than clear and proven examples of anti jewish sentiment in labour.
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Bromptonaut
Jezza himself has now spoken:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-party
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Zero
>> Jezza himself has now spoken:
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-party

Much to my despair, I have a degree of sympathy with the Labour Party and therefore JC.

Anti Semitism is racism, pure and simple, and should be treated - ie not tolerated -in just the same way. So why is there this:

www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Its peppered with references to the Holocaust and Nazism

The holocaust happened, we all know it, but how the hell did we end up with a draconian holocaust denial law in lots of countries. Why is it needed? There are no similar offences about slavery denial, North American Indian ethnic cleansing denial, The Crusades denial, Its history, it will stick because its the most documented atrocity ever, revisionism is impossible.

And why all the references to the state of Israel. There are over twice as many Jews outside Israel than within, and its this outside who suffer anti semitism, mostly because of the actions of the state of Israel. But no, criticising the State of Israel is deemed as anti Semitic.

So what is the Labour Party doing? Treating it as racism is what, and not slavishly sticking to definitions a countries political movement is trying to enforce on the world to justify its actions and using racism to do it.

The politicalisation of Judaism around the world is what creates the hostility towards it.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 5 Aug 18 at 08:32
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Bromptonaut
Pretty much agree with what Zero said. I would though add that Holocaust denial is on another level to slavery denial because there are still those living who were part of it or directly affected. The latter group includes the children of victims or survivors and the children ogf the 'kindertransport' generation.

Much of the Holocaust Remebrnce Alliance definition is straightforward but two or three of the examples are contentious. One refers to claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor, another to Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis and a third to Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

Supporters of Israel will conflate A State of Israel with THE State of Israel and attempt to shutdown debate on it's laws giving preference to Jew citizens over those of other faiths.

Israel is seizing land and property to take space for its own people while condemning those removed to hand to mouth existence in Gaza where they risk being shot for protesting their situation. Why should we not make the obvious comparison?

Is it unreasonable to suggest that last weeks co-ordinated headlines in Jewish press owe less to any realistic existential threat to UK Judaism and more to Corbyn's potential seat on the Security Council and how that might be used?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 5 Aug 18 at 15:34
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Duncan
When The Balfour Declaration was published by the British government in 1917, how did they think that was going to work in practice?

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

Was it not effectively trying to turn back history?

An incredible act of naivety?
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Cliff Pope

>>
>> An incredible act of naivety?
>>

And perhaps of typical imperial arrogance? Who were we to assume that a pronouncement by the British government should determine the indefinite future of a piece of someone else's land?
And why does this particular British declaration have so much lasting validity, as if Balfour had been up a mountain and read it on a tablet, compared with all the other doomed pronouncements of British politicians down the ages?

Aren't we glad we secured the mandate for that territory, and hence the right to determine its future. Supposing it had been France, and a French politician had declared it should be a Palestinian homeland - perhaps that would have settled the matter the other way. :)
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Ambo
>>There are over twice as many Jews outside Israel than within, and its this outside who suffer anti semitism, mostly because of the actions of the state of Israel.

Surely it is more because of envy? Jews punch well above their weight in most forms of activity and succeed in them (although I am not sure about sport). For our own society, I think we are fortunate to have their contribution.

This is not to defend the actions of state of Israel however.
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - Bromptonaut
A different take from Alastair Campbell's Missus:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/04/fiona-miller-labour-membership-corbyn-brexit
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - henry k
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/04/tom-watson-labour-antisemitism-eternal-shame
 Corbyn - Volume 3 - No FM2R
There is a certain satisfaction in seeing Corbyn who has made a life's work of slinging bricks at other people in his own party now having to catch a few himself.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Bromptonaut
Keir Starmer has suspended Jeremy Corbyn and withdrawn the whip. Actions follows Corby saying today's EHRC report is overstated and failing to withdraw those comments:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54730425

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/jeremy-corbyn-rejects-findings-of-report-on-antisemitism-in-labour
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - zippy
Unbelievable! The bloke just doesn't know when to give up!

(or should that be totally believable - it's certainly a character flaw when one cannot admit that they are wrong.)
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 30 Oct 20 at 02:55
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - No FM2R
I'm no supporter, or even liker, of Corbyn. But rock and a hard place...

1) Yes, the party was full of anti-Semitism even though I said it wasn't and I tried to stop them investigating it which one could argue was facilitating the issue. .

2) It wasn't and I didn't, but if it was I would have dealt with it because it's wrong.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Falkirk Bairn
There was a previous look at anti-semitism by a a lawyer called Chakrabati.

She found no evidence .................... and that was only 4 years ago.

I suppose the outcome sometimes depends on who is paying for the "right answer" to the question.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Manatee
>> I'm no supporter, or even liker, of Corbyn. But rock and a hard place...
>>
>> 1) Yes, the party was full of anti-Semitism even though I said it wasn't and
>> I tried to stop them investigating it which one could argue was facilitating the issue.
>> .
>>
>> 2) It wasn't and I didn't, but if it was I would have dealt with
>> it because it's wrong.

Or

3) I was wrong, I'm sorry for that, I've now learned and I fully support the implementation of the recommendations

A number of Corbyn supporters have said they can't stomach his suspension and de-whipping and are leaving the party, which must delight Starmer.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - No FM2R

>>3) I was wrong, I'm sorry for that,...

A politician saying that, hell freezing over and the second coming will probably all come along together.

And indeed people appreciating the honesty.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Bobby
As someone living in Scotland, I don't fully understand the whole Labour / Anti Semitism issue.

I understand the Israel / Palestine conflict and I also believe personally that if you criticise Israel for their actions in Palestine it doesnt make you an anti - semite? Why has Labour got such an issue with this? And also why are there some Jewish Labour associations that fully back Corbyn?

Is part of the issue that it is a deliberate divisive to break the Labour party ?

I'm genuinely curious.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Zero
or 4)." I am not the leader any more, I'll keep my trap shut for the sake of the parties chances of reelection" . might have been a good option.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 30 Oct 20 at 02:56
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Bromptonaut
>> or 4)." I am not the leader any more, I'll keep my trap shut
>> for the sake of the parties chances of reelection" . might have been a good
>> option.

That I think is the critical one for now.

I've not yet read the EHRC report, only the press coverage.

I was and am uncomfortable that there's a conflation between (a) cases where there has been discrimination, offence etc to Jewish members and (b) legitimate criticism of the State of Israel.

However some time for reflection/digestion is appropriate before drawing conclusions as Corbyn did would be sensible.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 29 Oct 20 at 20:50
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Manatee
>>
>> I was and am uncomfortable that there's a conflregularly accused of being a Zionist pig, a Tory hag, a racist shill or being a dizzy old bint who should be executed by Hezbollah.ation between (a) cases where there has
>> been discrimination, offence etc to Jewish members and (b) legitimate criticism of the State of
>> Israel.

I am no expert on this and I'm baffled by half of it.

However it isn't just the critics who can't tell the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. Anti-semites might really think they are just anti-Zionist, or pretend they are. Those on the receiving end of it probably don't see the difference either when 'anti-Zionism' takes the form of "regularly [accusing me] of being a Zionist pig, a Tory hag, a racist shill or being a dizzy old bint who should be executed by Hezbollah" in the words of Margaret Hodge.

Corbyn hasn't been found deficient for this directly, but for the degree to which he and his office either appeared to tolerate it or interfere with investigations. The fact that he can't see it speaks volumes. Maybe he just isn't very bright or lacks the imagination.

Starmer didn't suspend Corbyn AIUI, David Evans did. Perhaps the push came from Starmer but I suspect he would be very wary of doing exactly what Corbyn's office did, i.e. interfering with proceedings in this area.

There are Labour FB groups where you can find 100 posts attacking Starmer before tripping over one that criticizes the government or advances a policy. The former Momentumites and Corbynites who are still doing this aren't going to convert, and have a negative value as members, so the fact that they are protesting about Corbyn's suspension by cancelling their memberships can only be welcome to Starmer. Chuff knows who they are going to vote for, or what their plan could possibly be.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 30 Oct 20 at 08:30
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Zero
>> Corbyn hasn't been found deficient for this directly, but for the degree to which he
>> and his office either appeared to tolerate it or interfere with investigations. The fact that
>> he can't see it speaks volumes. Maybe he just isn't very bright or lacks the
>> imagination.

He is a poor natural leader and administrator, hampered by a very ancient left wing ideology of collective power & control. Ideology achieves nothing on its own.


Thats the problem with left wing types like him, they worship the old Trotsky and Leninist ideas of collective power by the people, conveniently ignoring the fact its a smokescreen spouted by the tyrant in charge at the time to maintain control and direction.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 30 Oct 20 at 09:04
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Terry
It's politics.

For Labour the Corbynistas are nutter left, detached from reality, momentum funded, etc.

Corbyn and co should under no circumstances be allowed to govern. I may not agree with Starmer, Nandy and co, but at least they seem a rational alternative.

To balance the post politcally, the Tories have their own right wing extremist sect - includes the like of Duncan-Smith, Steve Baker, Bill Cash to name a few.

In my view they should be similarly unelectable!

 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Lygonos
Or 5. Starmer has played a hand as to make the left and the Unions (and their money...) bog off and make him more attractive to corporate money and centre-ground/wet tory voters who will become unhappy with the inevitably worsening cronyism and sleaze from Boris et al

The second coming of the Blairssiah...
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - sooty123
Probably thought Labour needed a change in policy, that last one wasn't really a winner.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Netsur
. >> It's politics.
>>
>> For Labour the Corbynistas are nutter left, detached from reality, momentum funded, etc.
>>
>> Corbyn and co should under no circumstances be allowed to govern. I may not agree
>> with Starmer, Nandy and co, but at least they seem a rational alternative.
>>
>> To balance the post politcally, the Tories have their own right wing extremist sect -
>> includes the like of Duncan-Smith, Steve Baker, Bill Cash to name a few.
>>
>> In my view they should be similarly unelectable!
>>

They might be right wing, but they do not spend their time accusing Jews of being like Nazis, or simply saying that Jews don't merit any special protection as a minority. We are after all only 0.3% of the population.

The Tory party has several ethnic minorities in positions of some significant power. Whether you like their policies or think they are competent is irrelevant. They are in position. And many Jewish people as their predecessors.

Corbyn encouraged and added fuel to the flames lit by the ultra-left. The only worry is that so many people including Keir Starmer stood for election in 2019 as the grounds that Corbyn would be PM.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Ambo
>>We are after all only 0.3% of the population.

So, if you are a Jew, are you a semite? If so, how do you define "semite"?




 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - No FM2R
>>that Jews don't merit any special protection as a minority

The Jews deserve no more and no less protection than any minority or other group of people and the ultimate goal is equality for all, not special treatment for any one group.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Bromptonaut
>> >>that Jews don't merit any special protection as a minority
>>
>> The Jews deserve no more and no less protection than any minority or other group
>> of people and the ultimate goal is equality for all, not special treatment for any
>> one group.

I'd read Netsur's comment as meaning that Jews/Judaism are entitled to the same protection that extends to all minority groups by virtue of the Equality Act and its predecessors and that there was an inference that parts of the Labour party asserted they did not.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Zero
It would be easier if the state of Israel did not deliberately invest a great deal of effort in glueing criticism of state to racism against race and religion. Its gong to be counter productive long term.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - No FM2R
Absolutely.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Netsur
May I refer to honourable gentleman and his dog loving colleague to the following article. In summary the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity...

The status of the Israel Palestinian conflict is irrelevant to the concept of anti-semitism. It existed centuries before the State of Israel was even thought of.

tinyurl.com/yyy6bhw4

And yes, I only ask for the same treatment as any other minority in the world. I want to walk down the road, especially on the way home from the synagogue on a Saturday morning, without a moron hooting constantly as he drives down the road, or worse shouting "dirty Jews' from the car. That type of person is encouranged by Corbyn and his acolytes and they continue in their nasty work.

No-one shouts dirty Chinaman at people from the Far East despite the appalling treatment of the Uighurs by the Chinese regime. So not all Chinese people are responsible for the actions of the Chinese government and I nor any of my fellow British Jews are responsible for the actions of the Israeli government.




 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Zero
>> May I refer to honourable gentleman and his dog loving colleague to the following article.
>> In summary the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity...

Fear not sir, Given the choice between having a dirty dog, or dirty Palestinian in my house, the Palestinian would be left outside every time.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 3 Nov 20 at 12:14
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - No FM2R
>>I'd read Netsur's comment...............

I'd no thought that I was disagreeing with Netsur, more deflecting would could be the next comment from someone else.

There should be equality. No specially entitled groups, no less entitled groups. Simply equality.

Something that one would hope would be obvious, but somehow appears not to be.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Manatee
>>There should be equality. No specially entitled groups, no less entitled groups. Simply equality.

You would think it was that simple, I bet it isn't, otherwise it wouldn't be a topic for discussion.

cf. BLM.

I'd agree that all minority groups should get similar protection in similar circumstances, but some minorities undoubtedly face problems that others don't.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Ambo
>>So, if you are a Jew, are you a semite? If so, how do you define "semite"?

These were my questions, above. However, I now see how antisemite and antisemitic have been confounded. A German journalist Wilhelm Marr tried to clarify the issue in his book "The Victory of Judaism Over Germandom" (1879) by inventing the term antisemitism "...to describe the new racial breed of hatred that was replacing the old religious version." (To quote Simon Sebag Montefiore in his book "Jerusalem: The Biography".)

Not much attention has been paid to Marr but one is now antisemitic if hating Jews but an antisemite if hating semitic groups, either ethnic of by their use of a semitic language. The term "anti-Jew" better describes most of what is now called antisemitism.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - R.P.
Thanks Ambo for reminding me of the need to get that book read ! My brother in law is half Jewish, his mother escaped from Wittenberg just before the war, ironically Martin Luther's base.
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - Ambo
>>the need to get that book

Montefiore's book in excellent, I am told, but that quotation is the only bit of it I read (page 442, footnote).
 Corbyn Suspended/Whip Withdrawn - R.P.
Just bought it for the princely sum of £2.00 from Amazon.
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