Hopefully some can help with a quandary I've being this about....
As we know VW are facing multiple actions in the US and fines of many billions of dollars plus possible jail time for their bending of the emissions rules in certain US states (that reminds where did those class actions go to that were advertised in the UK by ambulance chasing lawyers??) causing, as far as I know, no deaths.
And yet...
Today I heard of another airline that is facing big losses running into the millions because of the worldwide grounding of the 737 Max, other airlines are also facing massive finical issues, and from the news reports today Boeing have admitted that they have cocked-up with the roll-out of the anti-stall safety device... and of course Boeing's mistakes have lead to hundreds being KILLED!
And yet...
Boeing don't seem to be suffering the same level of grief as VW... maybe it's early days but I can't help feeling the Boeing might get 'special' treatment as they have many high up connections in the US government and military (I even heard that they had their 'own' FAA inspectors based in Seattle to rubber-stamp changes).
Am I missing something?
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Bit different, vw dodged the rules knowingly. Boeing not so, at least not yet.
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Didn't the airline (or Boeing) compensate for the first crash?
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To get really confused, try reading the 450+ replies on pprune re the 737 Max issue.
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>> Boeing don't seem to be suffering the same level of grief as VW...
Oh they are. This is very bad for Boeing, Yes it early days, but fines and damages will be every bit as big as VW
>> have many high up connections in the US government and military (I even heard that
>> they had their 'own' FAA inspectors based in Seattle to rubber-stamp changes).
>>
>> Am I missing something?
Yes you are missing something in that its not a matter that Boeing had its own inspectors, but that Boeing deliberately misrepresented changes so that pilot training, and FAA certification would not be required, the FAA are guilty of lack of oversight.
Heads in the FAA will roll.
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I suspect the FAA and Boeing are going to be allowed by the US government to be very weaselly on this.
Boeing didn't even put details of how MCAS works in the manuals and conversion training (which as I understand it was just printed matter/videos or whatever, not actual flying or sim sessions. Yet they seem to have expected pilots to figure out what was happening and switch it off. The two crews might well have done that had they been at 35000 ft, but in both cases they were very low and (like Sully) did not have time to work through the checklist before they would have hit the ground.
The Max didn't go through proper certification, obviously with the blessing of the FAA which flatters itself as setting the gold standard in aircraft safety. The cockpit looks like older 737s, but the airframe and specifically the position of the engines is very different, hence the need for a new 'safety' system which they didn't tell anybody about!
Boeing are still acting in their words with "an abundance of caution" as if the don't really need to ground the fleet.
This will be a classic case of "we did nothing wrong really and there wasn't a problem (but we've fixed it to make sure).
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Thanks, I'll be very interested to see how the US treat another 'establishment' US company as a posed to a euro company who they have against the ropes and looking for ball-busting amounts of fines.
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>> Thanks, I'll be very interested to see how the US treat another 'establishment' US company
>> as a posed to a euro company who they have against the ropes and looking
>> for ball-busting amounts of fines.
The ball busting fines will be just a factor, wait till you see the size of the class actions.
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And this is what I don't fully understand with the VW issue in the US... I know they bent a rule to their advantage but how does the huge amount of the fines and possible jail correlate to the actual losses?
In most compensation claims surely the amount you are awarded relates to the total you are out of pocket, on the face of it there is a big disparity between the two values and as far as I know VW have bought back or paid out to car owners to put them back to how they were before the issue.
I still have a feeling that Boeing won't face the same level of fines/jail.
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The biggest threat for Boeing must be the effort to get the MAX back in the air and ongoing passenger resistance to it.
Let's say in 6 months time Boeing say they've sorted the problem with a software change. Regulators though will be more cautious and require some simulator training so pilots understand how the stabilisation system works and are drilled to deal with the 'what's it doing now' issues when it operates as it should or if it fails. AIUI there are at present very few MAX simulators.
I think there will be a very significant number of passengers who, whatever the assertions are that it's fixed, won't fly in it.
Ryanair have around 150 on order/option. First of them made its maiden flight on 13-01-19 and has been allocated the Irish registration EI-HAT. Still appears to be at Seattle so not yet delivered. I'd guess O'Leary and his team are thinking very hard about how to cover it's arrival and eventual service entry but there must be a nuclear option where the order is cancelled.
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>> Thanks, I'll be very interested to see how the US treat another 'establishment' US company
>> as a posed to a euro company who they have against the ropes and looking
>> for ball-busting amounts of fines.
>>
They seemed to do the job on Enron.
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>> The Max didn't go through proper certification, obviously with the blessing of the FAA which
>> flatters itself as setting the gold standard in aircraft safety. The cockpit looks like older
>> 737s, but the airframe and specifically the position of the engines is very different, hence
>> the need for a new 'safety' system which they didn't tell anybody about!
AIUI conversion training consisted of some reading and Powerpoint presentations on differences. No simulator sessions. Pilots expected to be rostered to fly mixed fleet of MAX and previous (NG) versions, sometimes both on same day.
Somewhere in one of the PPrune threads is an account of a US airline crew who only discovered they were to do their first sector in a MAX while in the taxi taking then from their hotel to the airport.
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>> Its looking very bad indeed for Boeing.
And that's if it's only a cock-up, rather than a conspiracy.
It has been mooted I believe that the desire to avoid a full certification process on the Max might be responsible for the fudges around MCAS. Had the Max been launched with more material changes to controls and procedures that might have made it safer to fly, Boeing would perhaps not have been able to get it signed off with minimal conversion training and no requirement for simulator time.
If indeed Boeing did do a less complete job than they should have done, in order to avoid the significant delay, cost and likely loss of orders on the Max, then this looks like turning into more than a question of competence.
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Is it their "Comet" moment ?
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Comet as in found in bits are the bottom of Mediterranean and finished the UK airline industry I think
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>> Comet as in found in bits are the bottom of Mediterranean and finished the UK
>> airline industry I think
Thanks, makes more sense.
But I don't recall any suggestion of incompetence, negligence, cover-up etc by de Havilland, wasn't it an aspect of metal fatigue that wasn't designed around at the time?
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Being too early, and the Boeing 707 did for the Comet.
I think its fair to say the 707 was a game changer
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 4 Apr 19 at 19:30
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>> Comet as in found in bits are the bottom of Mediterranean and finished the UK
>> airline industry I think
Not sure I can agree with that. UK airlines in form of BOAC, BEA and multiple independents from British Eagle to Britannia, Dan Air etc flourished long after Comet disasters. British airliners like the Viscount, BAC 1-11 and latterly the BAe146 and its derivatives sold moderately well.
The VC-10 and Trident suffered from commercially well targeted designs being compromised by requirement to tailor them to needs of the national corporations. The Caravelle had a similar issue where it was compromised by requirement to serve Air France's routes in their north african colonies rather than slightly more range that was needed for US city pairs between coasts and mid west.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 4 Apr 19 at 19:18
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I meant jet airliner manufacturing industry.
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>> I meant jet airliner manufacturing industry.
And latter part of my reply dealt with that. Adding turbo-props to jets the HS-748 and Jetstream were both moderately successful.
These days, like most other countries, it's mostly about building sub assemblies for Airbus/Bombardier and Boeing. We do pretty well at that too.
Long time after the Comet that BAe dropped the Avroliner and ended final assembly of jetliners in UK.
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And this sort of leads back to my initial query...
Boeing as a company are embedded in the US way of life (share-holders, military), this is rapidly unravelling for them but will they face the same level of financial losses?
I'm very surprised that the airlines with grounded planes haven't got together to start an action to claim damages for lost revenue... plus I heard that Boeing have a full order book for 737 MAXs and that they still expect to sell them! What would they do if the airlines now cancelled the orders? could they do that? what would they do if passengers refused to fly on the airlines brand new planes because of it's now tainted reputation?
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>> I'm very surprised that the airlines with grounded planes haven't got together to start an
>> action to claim damages for lost revenue..
Its happening, right now, but it will be confidential for a while as its a contractural thing that varies from order to order.
>>plus I heard that Boeing have a full
>> order book for 737 MAXs and that they still expect to sell them! What would
>> they do if the airlines now cancelled the orders?
SOme of them can, some of them cant, dont forget a lot of them will be leased, its all varies, but you can be rest assured they will all be screwing boeing to the wall
>> they do if passengers refused to fly on the airlines brand new planes because of
>> it's now tainted reputation?
Possible, but you can be assured airlines will be using this as a lever.
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Boeing vs VW - sooty123
