| Non-motoring > Tuition Fees Volume 3. | Miscellaneous |
Thread Author: R.P. |
Replies: 33 |
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Thu 16 Dec 10 00:31
Tuition Fees Volume 3. - R.P.
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Ongoing discussion about the Tuition Fees. 3rd volume started - 2nd can be found HERE Last edited by: Pugugly on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 00:35
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Wed 15 Dec 10 22:40
Tuition fee protests - Volume 3 - PhilW
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Changing tack..... and hoping I am not repeating a Q already asked. Was listening to radio the other day and there was an item on some black footballers who were asked to pay in advance for a meal at a pizza place. Some "equality" spokeswoman said that it was illegal to discriminate against anyone on the basis of race, nationality, creed, disablity, gender, the way they look, the way they dress etc., etc., etc.. So, why are Scottish and Welsh universities allowed to discriminate against English students by charging them more for their courses? is that not "racial discrimination"? Am I missing a very obvious point? Last edited by: Pugugly on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 00:33
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Wed 15 Dec 10 22:42
Tuition fee protests - Volume 3 - rtj70
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>> So, why are Scottish and Welsh universities allowed to discriminate against English students >> by charging them more for their courses? is that not "racial discrimination"? >> Am I missing a very obvious point? They don't. And someone from Wales going to an English university pays the English fees. Last edited by: Pugugly on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 00:33
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Wed 15 Dec 10 22:47
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - PhilW
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"They don't" So what does this article mean? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12000741 Scottish students pay nowt, English pay £1900 and may in future pay up to £6000?? Last edited by: PhilW on Wed 15 Dec 10 at 22:49
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Wed 15 Dec 10 22:53
Tuition fee protests - Volume 3 - R.P.
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It means residents of that country (I think three years in Wales' case) - you don't have to be a haggis eating kilt wearing Scotsperson - as long as you've lived long enough in the country to qualify..
Last edited by: Pugugly on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 00:33
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Wed 15 Dec 10 23:10
Tuition fee protests - Volume 3 - PhilW
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"It means residents of that country" Ah, that's OK then - only discriminated against if you are a resident of a different country!!! Is the Principality of Wales a different country to England ???? Have the Scots revoked the Act of Union???? What happened to The United Kingdom? Why does my passport say I am British rather than English? Should I have taken my passport when I went to Swansea on Monday? Somewhat rhetorical questions!! Think I've been affected by that Daily Mail I saw the other day! Last edited by: Pugugly on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 00:34
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Wed 15 Dec 10 22:57
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - John H
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>> So, why are Scottish and Welsh universities allowed to discriminate against English students by charging >> them more for their courses? is that not "racial discrimination"? I asked a similar question earlier in this discussion: www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=3989&m=84635&v=e "One thing I don't understand is how the equality and discrimination laws allow that the Scots Universities can offer free education to anyone from the EU, but not if you come from England." |
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Wed 15 Dec 10 23:11
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - PhilW
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| Sorry John, didn't see that and didn't realise the bit about the EU!! Interesting!! |
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Wed 15 Dec 10 23:23
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - CGNorwich
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| Isn't the answer that Scottish and Welsh universities charge the same amount for all UK students. It just that in the case of their own residents these fees are met in full or part by their governments. |
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Wed 15 Dec 10 23:59
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - R.P.
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| That was my understanding. Both national assemblies/governments have that power I believe. Same a the free prescriptions (I actually disagree with that) |
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Thu 16 Dec 10 09:23
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - John H
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>> Isn't the answer that Scottish and Welsh universities charge the same amount for all UK >> students. It just that in the case of their own residents these fees are met >> in full or part by their governments. >> OK, so you have explained the bit about England, Wales and NI. That still doesn't explain why education at Scottish Universities is free for students from the rest of the EU. |
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Thu 16 Dec 10 09:38
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - CGNorwich
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This inequality exists because European Union Member State nations are required under EU law to charge European Union Member students the same rates as other European Union Members’ home undergraduates." For the purposes of European Law England is not a European Union Member state, it is part of one , the UK. English students are not therefore protected in the same way as other countries' students. Unfair, yes. tough, yes but you asked me why. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 09:38
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Thu 16 Dec 10 10:58
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - hobby
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While we're on the inequality discussion lets ask when they are going to sort this out: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question Which is the only reason NL got the fees through in the first place... |
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Thu 16 Dec 10 11:12
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - John H
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>> This inequality exists because European Union Member State nations are required under EU law to >> charge European Union Member students the same rates as other European Union Members’ home undergraduates." >> >> For the purposes of European Law England is not a European Union Member state, it >> is part of one , the UK. English students are not therefore protected in the >> same way as other countries' students. >> >> Unfair, yes. tough, yes but you asked me why. >> i asked why, but you seem to have dug a hole for yourself. :-) How is Scotland a "European Union Member state"? Using your logic, the EU students should be charged a UK fee. The UK fee could quite legitimately be the lowest, or the highest, or an average of those applying in the whole of the UK. Last edited by: John H on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 11:13
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Thu 16 Dec 10 11:23
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - CGNorwich
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How is Scotland a "European Union Member state"? It isn't "Using your logic, the EU students should be charged a UK fee. The UK fee could quite legitimately be the lowest, or the highest, or an average of those applying in the whole of the UK." No the EU student will be charged the same fee as a student from the home country is charged for attending a particular university. in the case of variable charges as in the UK, the lowest rate applies i.e. for Scotland and Welsh Universities free, the same as a Scottish or Welsh residents . It isn't my logic by the way, its EU law |
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Thu 16 Dec 10 11:39
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - John H
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>> It isn't my logic by the way, its EU law >> Doesn't compute. If you can discriminate between the administrative divisions of UK, then you can discriminate between the administrative divisions of, say, Spain, France, Germany. So at a Scottish University, you should be free to charge different fees to someone from Catalonia, Brittany, or Bavaria. Please quote or give a link to this EU law that you are relying on for your replies. |
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Thu 16 Dec 10 18:18
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - CGNorwich
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Doesn't compute. If you can discriminate between the administrative divisions of UK, then you can discriminate between the administrative divisions of, say, Spain, France, Germany. So at a Scottish University, you should be free to charge different fees to someone from Catalonia, Brittany, or Bavaria. I think you are misunderstanding me. The EU does not allow member countries to discriminate against the citizens of other member countries in certain areas. They must give them the same privileges and entitlements as member of their own country. Thus when in Greece say you are entitled to be treated the same under say the Greek health care system as a Greek National. The EU does not prevent a member nation's local or regional governments charging differently within a country. Thus for example your council may charge more than mine for supplying the same services. When it comes to education, if lived in France my children would be educated in the same way and at the same cost as French children. Similarly a French student attending a Scottish university will be charge the same rate and receive the same subsidies as a Scottish student. The fact that variable subsidies apply to students coming from different parts of the UK is not a matter for which the EU can intervene. ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/education/university/fees/index_en.htm |
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Thu 16 Dec 10 21:40
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - PhilW
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"The fact that variable subsidies apply to students coming from different parts of the UK is not a matter for which the EU can intervene." So it's OK for the Scottish Government to discriminate against the English?? But they can't discriminate against Greeks, French etc?? Mind you, I have the feeling that I'm being a bit thick about this - so no need to reply GCN if you are tired of trying to explain simple things to a simple mind!! I do see what you mean but I still don't see why it is not "racial" discrimination! |
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Thu 16 Dec 10 21:46
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - John H
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>> things to a simple mind!! I do see what you mean but I still don't >> see why it is not "racial" discrimination! >> I agree. It seems that it is OK not to make it fee-free to a Spanish Basque separatist (because he is from Spain, a member of EU), but it is also OK to charge a fee to a Welsh or English separatist (because he is from UK, a member of EU). Last edited by: John H on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 21:47
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Thu 16 Dec 10 22:50
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - CGNorwich
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"So it's OK for the Scottish Government to discriminate against the English?? But they can't discriminate against Greeks, French etc??" That is indeed an accurate summary of the situation as far as the EU is concerned. |
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Tue 28 Dec 10 17:51
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - The Melting Snowman
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The seeds to the current mess over student fees were sown some years ago by the Tories. Before about 1991 there were two distinct camps - Universities and Polytechnics. As a very broad generalisation, if you wanted to study the Arts you went to the former and for technical courses the latter. Always exceptions of course but that covered most of it. Then Major poked his nose in with this ridiculous idea of creating a 'classless society' and allowed the Polys to become Unis, subject to certain criteria being met. One of these criteria was the colleges has to increase the student numbers. As a cynic I would argue that this was to help keep the youth unemployment figures down. So the process of force-feeding huge numbers of youngsters into degree courses began, a process continued by Labour post 1997. The result has been a huge expense to the taxpayer and a misleading of expectations. No longer is a degree a guarantee of employment unless you are privileged to go to a 'top' university and/or a do a work-specific course which as some value (not the wishy-washy degrees we can all think of...) Many of today's problems can be traced back to pre-Labour. Another is the expensive PFI. And the flogging off of council houses now resulting in those in need renting at private rents. Nice one. My solution would be to exempt all useful degrees (engineering, teaching, nursing, medical etc.) anyone else can pay. I should add that I'm no supporter of Labour but don't see these problems as being the result of only one party. Last edited by: The Melting Snowman on Tue 28 Dec 10 at 17:53
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Mon 3 Jan 11 19:56
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - John H
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>> Many of today's problems can be traced back to pre-Labour. Another is the expensive PFI. Can you explain to me this: Where/how would the money for projects financed by PFI otherwise come from? Oh yes, the Government would borrow to add yet more debt to our already immense burden. And end up in the gutter like PIGS Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain. >> And the flogging off of council houses now resulting in those in need renting at >> private rents. Nice one. >> So if the council houses had not been sold you think there would be no shortage of homes to rent now? Wrong. Council house tenants stay as tenants forever. Once in, they never leave. So you would have the Councils build new homes to provide new councils homes. Do you know how costly it is for councils to build homes? Where and how would they get the money? Yes, they would borrow again and/or fleece the ratepayers. They over specify and over engineer and over regulate and overpay for the privilege. It is far far far more efficient to subsidise and pay housing benefit to tenants to house them in private housing than to allow councils to operate as landlords. >> I should add that I'm no supporter of Labour but don't see these problems as >> being the result of only one party. >> Looks to me like you have bought wholeheartedly in to Labour propaganda. |
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Mon 3 Jan 11 20:55
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - swiss tony
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>> So if the council houses had not been sold you think there would be no >> shortage of homes to rent now? Wrong. Council house tenants stay as tenants forever. Once in, they never leave. True to a point. Once in a council property most people will always live in one, but not always the same one. A flat as newlyweds, 2-3 bed as a family, a flat when kids leave home, old people housing late in life. I do know that some people stay in the same property all their life, but that could be stopped very easily. >>So you would have the Councils build new homes to provide new councils homes. Do you know how costly it is for councils to build homes? No more expensive than any other housing estate, and in fact could/should be cheaper, as all properties would be sold before building, not forgetting economy of scale. >> Where and how would they get the money? From the rents on other properties. before Thatcher much of the housing stock was old, and the rents on those were less than newer stock. if the rents had been levelled between old and newer stock, the profit on the older houses would have paid for the new builds. Don't forget on a 1930's property the build costs had be covered many times over. >> They over specify and over engineer and over regulate and overpay for the privilege. LOL....now that one does take the wee-wee.... have you ever been in a council property? to say they over specify and over engineer is total rubbish! in my experience the opposite is true, cheap builds, with cheap fittings. Last edited by: swiss tony on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 20:55
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Mon 3 Jan 11 21:21
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> LOL....now that one does take the wee-wee.... have you ever been in a council property? >> to say they over specify and over engineer is total rubbish! >> in my experience the opposite is true, cheap builds, with cheap fittings. >> Not according to the various property programmes on the box, where ex-council houses are pointed out as being very solidly built. My last house was ex-council and that was my experience too. The cheap builds probably only apply to jerry built tower blocks. |
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Mon 3 Jan 11 21:52
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - swiss tony
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>> Not according to the various property programmes on the box, where ex-council houses are pointed out as being very solidly built. My last house was ex-council and that was my >> experience too. >> >> The cheap builds probably only apply to jerry built tower blocks. >> No,I cannot agree with that comment. I was bought up from the age of 5 in a council house. That had been built in the 30's, and yes the bricks and mortar was solid, but the fittings that replaced the originals were cheap rubbish. When I got married we got a new build single bedroom council flat - that WAS a cheaply and shoddily built place. (not a high rise BTW, it was 3 floor terraced design. When we had children, then we moved into a 3 bed terraced house build in the 60's or so. the build quality of that was noticeably poorer than my parents house. the house i'm in now, a 30's semi, private rent, has a decent build quality, and the fittings although old, are of a decent spec. |
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Tue 4 Jan 11 10:12
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - hobby
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| We lived in a couple of ex council properties and they were solidly built... I think the problem is that the contractors charge the Council for expensive fittings but fit cheapo ones... |
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Sun 9 Jan 11 20:16
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - The Melting Snowman
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>> Many of today's problems can be traced back to pre-Labour. Another is the expensive PFI. Can you explain to me this: Where/how would the money for projects financed by PFI otherwise come from? Oh yes, the Government would borrow to add yet more debt to our already immense burden. And end up in the gutter like PIGS Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain. Not the point I was making. I was merely stating that PFI was introduced by the Tories and that the Labour Govt. has continued with a policy their predecessors introduced. My own view is that’s it’s better to borrow than to finance by PFI anyway – at least the Govt. ends up with a tangible asset even if they have paid for it many times over (no different to having a mortgage on your house versus paying rent). In any case, inflicting higher taxes on the next generation to pay for the PFI extravagance is grossly unethical. >> And the flogging off of council houses now resulting in those in need renting at >> private rents. Nice one. >> So if the council houses had not been sold you think there would be no shortage of homes to rent now? Wrong. Council house tenants stay as tenants forever. Once in, they never leave. So you would have the Councils build new homes to provide new councils homes. Do you know how costly it is for councils to build homes? Where and how would they get the money? Yes, they would borrow again and/or fleece the ratepayers. They over specify and over engineer and over regulate and overpay for the privilege. It is far far far more efficient to subsidise and pay housing benefit to tenants to house them in private housing than to allow councils to operate as landlords. In my view the flogging off of the council houses was purely political. It was a deeply devisive policy even amongst the Govt. of the day. It was a cynical and costly way of both 'buying' the Working class vote (and hence diminishing the Labour vote in key areas) and diminishing the power of the Unions. No where more evident that around the Tilbury docks area - big strikes in the 1960s and 70s but once people had mortgages weren't prepared to strike and lose pay. Regarding the costs of building council houses, swiss tony's reply covers it all. Not going to repeat his sound logic. Council houses are a public asset. They should not have been built with public money to then be flogged off at knock-down prices to then be resold some years later at full market prices. Some people we know live in an ex-council house paying a private rent, the owner lives out of the area. They claim part housing benefit which is far more than what the council rent would have been. The lack of housing in some areas is so severe that I’ve read that some Councils are now trying to buy back their old homes. Complete bonkers. As is often the case, the consequences of daft policies frequently don’t become known until years later. >> I should add that I'm no supporter of Labour but don't see these problems as >> being the result of only one party. >> Looks to me like you have bought wholeheartedly in to Labour propaganda. You can believe what you like as far as I’m concerned. I’ve never voted Labour in my life but would probably be more inclined to do so than vote for the dreadful lot we've got now. |
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Sun 9 Jan 11 21:00
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - John H
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>> You can believe what you like as far as I’m concerned. I’ve never voted Labour >> in my life but would probably be more inclined to do so than vote for >> the dreadful lot we've got now. >> Ah, showing your true colours now! |
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Sun 9 Jan 11 21:03
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - John H
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>> From the rents on other properties. >> before Thatcher much of the housing stock was old, and the rents on those were Sounds like typical labour economics. The cost of maintaining council houses was such taht rents hardly ever covered the costs. Where do you get the capital, and how do you pay for it? Last edited by: John H on Sun 9 Jan 11 at 21:04
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Tue 11 Jan 11 13:17
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - R.P.
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| Wonder if you get charged tuition fees if you're studying for a degree from a prison cell ? |
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Wed 12 Jan 11 10:50
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - Gromit
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"When it comes to education, if lived in France my children would be educated in the same way and at the same cost as French children." Indeed. Don't forget, too, that UK citizens have the option to travel to other EU countries for third-level educatiton, and that the same principles regarding tuition fees and student grants apply. Remember, too, that within the UK there are typically more college places than candidates to fill them - hence the system for 'clearing' places in UCAS. Prospective students should consider themselves as customers and look for the best deal on their education. You could, for example, attend college in Dublin or Cork. Travelling to and from Wales, that may work out cheaper than living away from home within the UK, and differnet fees apply (but are always subject to change!). Likewise, a student based in Scotland may consider Belfast (or vice versa). And a growing number of European colleges now offer tuition in English - for example, Irish and German veterinary students going to Hungary is not uncommon anymore. Slightly off topic, some shrewed students (or parents) reduce the cost by choosing their preferred unis based on the length of term - a shorter term means lower rent and living costs, and a longer summer in which (hopefully) to earn back some of those costs for next year. |
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Wed 12 Jan 11 10:57
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - Alanovich
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Good grief, whatever happened to choosing your place of higher education based on the course being offered fitting your needs, abilities and academic preferences? It's now down to how much rent you'll have to pay? How sad. |
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Wed 12 Jan 11 10:59
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - smokie
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" a shorter term means lower rent and living costs" - halls often charge for a standard term time - nursey daughter had to take the longer option as her course was a five day a week course and ran (IIRC) for 40 weeks - other option was 32 weeks I think (Birmingham Uni). And even more off topic - other daughter finished a three year degree (with a 1st) last year at UWE (OK, we already know that's not a proper Uni from previous discussions...!). She reckoned the course could have been comfortably covered in two years if the system was changed - often she had only 1 formal session per week, and even then the lecturers managed to miss quite a few. That'd bring down costs!! |
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Wed 12 Jan 11 11:07
Tuition fee protests - Volume 2 - Iffy
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...and even then the lecturers managed to miss quite a few... Don't get me started on skiving lecturers. Last edited by: Iffy on Wed 12 Jan 11 at 11:08
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