| Non-motoring > Have the Lib Dems blown it? | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: SteelSpark | Replies: 70 |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 09:40
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
Seems that their support is down to only 8% now. Perhaps a temporary blip, following the tuition fees fallout. I still think they made a great error in not pushing for full PR, or at least a commitment on the alternate vote. I reckoned they have missed their window now. Although I suppose they could threaten to withdraw from the coalition now, and bring the government down. Would love to see the smug faces of Cameron and Osborne, if they suddenly had to stop talking down to us for a bit, and had to convince us to vote for them again. "Oh, you know that time that we told you that we were going to cut all your services, but then lectured you on how it was right to send piles of your cash abroad...er...we'd been drinking...sorry...won't happen again" |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 09:45
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Zero
|
|
The liberals are a joke, always have been in my lifetime. They were, are and always will be of little consequence. As for Cameron and Osborne, you want Labour back? We always end up broke under Labour, always have done ever since the party was formed, the only thing that varies is the length of time it takes to get there. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 09:56
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> As for Cameron and Osborne, you want Labour back? Not particularly, I just don't like what I perceive to be their arrogance at the moment. Would be good to see them humbled, if only for a bit. Childish, I know. Last edited by: SteelSpark on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 09:56
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 09:52
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Alanovich
|
|
I am staggered that people seem unable to understand the simple concept of coalition government. Compromise. I suppose it happens so infrequently here that people aren't used to it. The Liberals did not win the election, therefore they can not be expected to be able to implement all the policies from their manifesto. As a junior partner in coalition they will get very few things they origianlly wanted. Why people can't see this, and then throw their toys out of the pram over "broken promises" is beyond me. If they were in government alone, then yes. Nail them. But the reaction to their compromise on tuition fees is ridiculous. Personally I'm delighted that we've finally got a coalition government, and we have a moderate party tempering the policies of one of the big ones. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 09:58
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> I am staggered that people seem unable to understand the simple concept of coalition government. >> Compromise. I suppose it happens so infrequently here that people aren't used to it. I agree, but that's politics, eh? Are they going to damage their credibility with their core supporters (albeit unfairly as you say) and then have missed the chance to potentially push for electoral reform that could perhaps have established them as a more formidable force for the future. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 10:02
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Zero
|
|
Our whole system of politics is, and always has been based on a confrontational model. Parliament itself was formed to oppose the Monarchy. THe building is square so we can have Two sides. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 09:57
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Tooslow
|
|
"I still think they made a great error in not pushing for full PR, or at least a commitment on the alternate vote." I thought that was what we would be voting on in May? I'm baffled by the Lib Dem supporters & MPs and, to a slightly lesser degree, the Conservatives. The Lib Dems have more power today than they have had since 1916 (and that was a co-alition with the Conservatives) and yet their supporters are foaming at he mouth because they are not doing this, that and the other. They totally fail to see that they have more influence than they have had for nearly a century, are achieving some of their aims and are moderating what would pesumably have happened if the Conservatives had won outright. It's simple chaps - YOU DIDN'T WIN. Nor did the Conservatives. Go and look up "compromise" in the dictionary. John |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 10:03
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> I thought that was what we would be voting on in May? My understanding is that it has to be approved by Parliament and the Tories have said that they won't be backing it. I could be wrong though. >> They totally fail >> to see that they have more influence than they have had for nearly a century, >> are achieving some of their aims and are moderating what would pesumably have happened if >> the Conservatives had won outright. >> >> It's simple chaps - YOU DIDN'T WIN. Nor did the Conservatives. Go and look up >> "compromise" in the dictionary. Yeah but, again, that's politics. You can't hope that voters are rational, you have to play politics. I think that they are doing themselves damage in the eyes of their voters and then not really getting anything out of the coalition in terms of electoral reform. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 10:08
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - John H
|
|
>> Would love to see the smug faces of Cameron and Osborne, if they suddenly had >> to stop talking down to us for a bit, and had to convince us to >> vote for them again. >> >> "Oh, you know that time that we told you that we were going to cut >> all your services, but then lectured you on how it was right to send piles >> of your cash abroad...er...we'd been drinking...sorry...won't happen again" >> I don't think a large proportion of the UK voting public agree with you. The support for Tories is going up, and even the left wing biased BBC political correspondents think that Cameron is performing well. Yesterday, one of them said that if Cameron had done this before the election, he would have won a big overall Tory majority in parliament. The same programme went on to say that the coalition was doing far better than anyone could have imagined at the start. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 10:22
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - madf
|
|
The LibDems in Opposition based their promises on being in opposition. So they promised the earth. Any supporter of theirs who is now disillusioned is really only commenting on their own inability to see the real world, not the world as they would like it to be.. And the real world is one where there is and will continue to be a squeeze on all overspending governments . And it's going to get worse rather than better - as at some time interest rates are going to rise. So all criticisms of LibDems by former supporters are more an indictment of their own naivety or ignorance or both. Many voters believe there is a free lunch - paid for by someone else - for life. But eventually economics will out and he who pays the piper etc... And although you may not care for the current incumbents of Downing Street , they are at least more human and truthful than the past ones who in the last decade comprised a warmongering liar who has become a multimillionaire on the back of a property boom engendered by his colleague who promised to prevent one and lied - frequently about it. And who colluded in the MPs' expenses scandal. Last edited by: madf on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 10:25
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 10:32
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> And although you may not care for the current incumbents of Downing Street , they >> are at least more human and truthful than the past ones Just give them some time madf, just give them some time, and then we'll see who is disillusioned. Oh, and I don't disagree with what you say about the Lib Dems, and about what they can be expected to achieve, I just think they have blown it politically. You can do everything in your power to do the very best you can for the country, and yet you can still make a political pig's ear of it. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 10:29
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> I don't think a large proportion of the UK voting public agree with you. The >> support for Tories is going up, and even the left wing biased BBC political correspondents >> think that Cameron is performing well. Yesterday, one of them said that if Cameron had >> done this before the election, he would have won a big overall Tory majority in >> parliament. The same programme went on to say that the coalition was doing far better >> than anyone could have imagined at the start. The latest polls that I can see, say the following: YouGov - Con (39%) - Lab (42%) - LDEM (9%) MORI - Con (38%) - Lab (39%) - LDEM (11%) I hardly see how Cameron could have won a big majority on the basis of those figures. What some political pundit thinks is of less relevance than what the voters seem to be saying. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 10:41
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Cliff Pope
|
|
>> >> >> >> What some political pundit thinks is of less relevance than what the voters seem to >> be saying. >> What voters seem to be saying in a MORI poll is of less relevance than what they actually say when they vote. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 10:46
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> >> What some political pundit thinks is of less relevance than what the voters seem >> to >> >> be saying. >> >> >> What voters seem to be saying in a MORI poll is of less relevance than >> what they actually say when they vote. So we are to apply more weight to what a single political pundit says, rather than opinion polls? Is his taking his own polls that have some greater accuracy? This is interesting (unless we are dismissing opinion polls, of course). It seems that any gains have been at the Lib Dems detriment. ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/voting-intention |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 10:56
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Mapmaker
|
|
There was no way the country was going to reelect Gordon Brown in May. Therefore Cameron would have won a large majority in May, irrespective of what the opinion polls say now. All these people complaining about broken manifesto commitments just don't understand coalition. The point of a one-party-in-power system is that you vote for a manifesto. The problem is that the Government we have didn't have a manifesto, so with a coalition the voters don't get any say in what happens at all. That's why the AV vote will fail (though we mustn't be complacent) and why the LDs will never again win as many seats as they did in May. The British will have woken up to the stupidity of voting for a coalition. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 11:03
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> There was no way the country was going to reelect Gordon Brown in May. Therefore >> Cameron would have won a large majority in May, irrespective of what the opinion polls >> say now. Not sure what you mean. Under what circumstances would he have won a large majority in May? (obviously he didn't in reality) If there was an election today, what reasoning would suggest that the polls are so out of whack that the Conservatives could win a large majority? >> All these people complaining about broken manifesto commitments just don't understand coalition. The point of >> a one-party-in-power system is that you vote for a manifesto. >> >> The problem is that the Government we have didn't have a manifesto, so with a >> coalition the voters don't get any say in what happens at all. >> >> That's why the AV vote will fail (though we mustn't be complacent) and why the >> LDs will never again win as many seats as they did in May. The British >> will have woken up to the stupidity of voting for a coalition. Again, I don't disagree. It is all about whether the Lib Dems have played the politics well. Given that they failed to get electoral reform and have lost support from their own voters (rightly or wrongly), I would suggest that they haven't. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 11:06
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - John H
|
|
>> I hardly see how Cameron could have won a big majority on the basis of >> those figures. >> Those figures are after Cameron has had to announce and pass some unpalatable policies, and before Ed Miliband fills in his blank piece of paper and announces what what he would cut. www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/oct/21/icm-poll-data-labour-conservatives#data www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/22/labour-pulls-ahead-guardian-icm-poll?intcmp=239 "The accuracy of the Lib Dem score – then and now – was the subject of much discussion at yesterday's post-election British Polling Council conference. Some pollsters suspect the party's rating is now artificially low and that the party would outperform it in a general election. The coalition may take some comfort from the fact that smaller parties have benefited more than Labour from declining Tory and Lib Dem support. Support for "others" is up three points to 12%, including 3% for Scottish and Welsh nationalists, 3% for Ukip and 2% for the Greens. A plurality of voters think that the government's policies are taking Britain in the right direction. Overall 46% agree while 37% disagree. However fewer than half the people who voted Lib Dem in 2010 – 42% ≠ now approve of the direction of government policies." >> What some political pundit thinks is of less relevance than what the voters seem to >> be saying. >> The pundit was saying that if Cameron's performance in May 2010 was what it is now, he would have won in May. In other words, he is performing so well that despite the tough policies he has announced, his party is not losing ground that would be expected. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 11:14
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> >> What some political pundit thinks is of less relevance than what the voters seem >> to >> >> be saying. >> >> >> The pundit was saying that if Cameron's performance in May 2010 was what it is >> now, he would have won in May. In other words, he is performing so well >> that despite the tough policies he has announced, his party is not losing ground that >> would be expected. Seems a pretty bizarre piece of logic to me. But, bizarre or not, it is slightly irrelevant as to whether they would win an election now - which if the Lib Dems pulled out of the coalition would be when they would be forced to hold it (unless they tried to cling on with a minority government). If they did want to win, they would have to woo us voters again, rather than arrogantly lecture us - which was, of course, my original point. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 11:50
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - John H
|
|
>> Seems a pretty bizarre piece of logic to me. Seems pretty straightforward to me. >> if the Lib Dems pulled out of the coalition would be when they would be forced to hold it The Liberals won't do so. They are going to cling on to the power for 5 full years if they can. If there is an early election, the public will bring in a majority Tory government because they will know what the alternative new OLd Labour really stands for, because then Ed Miliband will have to start writing up his blank piece of paper. >> If they did want to win, they would have to woo us voters again, rather >> than arrogantly lecture us - which was, of course, my original point. >> I don't see the arrogance that you see. What I see is confident leadership and government. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 11:16
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Tooslow
|
|
As an aside, I do hope that we see a 50 - 60 seat reduction in the number of MPs and the balancing of wards, as was promised and which I utterly fail to understand why the Boundary Commission has not sorted out. They've not been slipped a few bob have they? John |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 11:26
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> Those figures are after Cameron has had to announce and pass some unpalatable policies, and >> before Ed Miliband fills in his blank piece of paper and announces what what he >> would cut. The problem, of course, is that the cuts are the easy part (politically unpalatable, but easy), the difficult part is how you stimulate growth. If you have a business that is losing money, do you immediately cut costs so that the books balance, even if that means that you destroy the earning potential of the business? Or do you invest more, and perhaps have to borrow in the meantime, to implement a sustainable business plan? Any moron can come in and fire everybody, sell the furniture and switch the lights off. Same with a country...and the UK can still borrow quite cheaply. Not saying that the Tories won't get this right, but let's not applaud them too much for just selling the furniture. Last edited by: SteelSpark on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 11:28
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 11:53
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - John H
|
|
>> Not saying that the Tories won't get this right, but let's not applaud them too >> much for just selling the furniture. >> I disagree with you, but I agree with many of the economics pundits and professionals, including the professional Mervyn King amongst them, who agree with the Lib-Con strategy. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 12:53
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> I disagree with you, but I agree with many of the economics pundits and professionals, >> including the professional Mervyn King amongst them, who agree with the Lib-Con strategy. I didn't say that cutting was wrong, I asked what their plan was for what came next. What is their plan for future growth? The cutting is the easy bit. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 12:57
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Zero
|
|
>> The cutting is the easy bit. Too hard for labour. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 11:57
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Mapmaker
|
|
SteelSpark, in amongst the left-wing dogma you spout, you make the following astonishingly ill-informed statement. >>[The Tories shouldn't have cut so much but instead carried on spending because] the UK can still borrow quite cheaply. Yes, indeed it can. And the reason it can is because it isn't borrowing. If it wanted to borrow more, it would have to pay more. The only reason the ratings agencies didn't downgrade UK debt prior to the election was because they anticipated a Tory victory complete with spending cuts.They got it, so debt remains cheap(ish). Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 11:58
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 12:04
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Zero
|
|
Our credit rating is still good. Its only still good because we are taking action to cut spending and balance the books. You want to know what happens when your credit rating gets cut? Pop over and see what's happening in Ireland. Or Greece. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 12:08
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Iffy
|
|
Have the Lib Dems blown it? To my mind they never had it built in the first place. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 12:34
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Old Navy
|
| I was thinking exactly that as I read the thread. A bit like the SNP. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 12:49
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - madf
|
|
You are wasting your time speaking to Labour supporters and left wingers when you try to explain economics. History shows they don't understand it and have a 100% track record of screwing up economies. See 1930s. The Callaghan years. Blair /Brown. Tax ans spend and spend unwisely is their motto. So far they have been 100% consistent. Milliput looks to be made from the same mould. You can understand why. Their supporters (on the whole and generalising) are either: very rich but pay little tax - see the Benns, Tony Blair. Government employees. Poor paid and pay no tax. On benefits. Logically they will support a Labour Government as it either costs them no money to do so, or gives them employment or pays them to be unemployed. And of course, the rich don't suffer when it all goes tits up as it always does.. (see the Guardian writers with their Italian villas). Last edited by: madf on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 12:50
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:04
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> Our credit rating is still good. Its only still good because we are taking action >> to cut spending and balance the books. >> >> You want to know what happens when your credit rating gets cut? Pop over and >> see what's happening in Ireland. Or Greece. Wrong. It comes down to how likely you are to repay it, not simply to do with how well you balance the books. You can have as much debt as you like as long as you are going to be able to repay it when it comes due. Your business is £200,000 in debt, but you are generating cash in excess of your debt payments - you can likely borrow more. Your business owes nothing, but makes nothing - your ability to borrow is low. It doesn't mean that you borrow just because you can, but debt is fine in a long term business plan. The US is taking the approach of trying to secure long term growth, even if that unfortunately means borrowing in the meantime, the UK is taking the approach of cutting debt, and potentially risking poor future growth. Time will tell who is right. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 14:16
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - madf
|
|
>> >> Our >> You can have as much debt as you like as long as you are going >> to be able to repay it when it comes due. >> . >> >> Time will tell who is right. >> Thanks you for proving my point. Your statement above is just plain wrong.. Minor things like people willing to lend, interest rates and perception of your ability tp pay are far more important... |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 16:01
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> Minor things like people willing to lend, interest rates and perception of your ability tp >> pay are far more important... Yes, exactly, your ability to repay (not how much debt you have) is what counts. Exactly what I said. Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 20:47
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 16:28
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - madf
|
|
>> Minor things like people willing to lend, interest rates and perception of your ability tp >> pay are far more important... """Yes, exactly, your ability to repay (not how much debt you have) is what counts. Exactly what I said" NO! I was very careful to say " perception of your ability to pay " Perception is ALL> If you can repay but others think you cannot, you are stuffed.. - See the Spanish who so far can pay - BUT - they need to refinance a lot in early 2011. The perception is that will be difficult so the cost of borrowing for them is going up now... although they can afford to pay. And once rates start going up, they will be unable to pay . A self defeating scenario based on perception.. The reason the UK can borrow cheaply is the perception they are doing the right thing.. (If you read the Heffalump in the DT - unlikely i know! :-) - he thinks they are NOT doing the right thing - should be cutting a lot more..) Perception is all. Ability to pay is a vriable depending upon debt AND interest rates. Rates depend on PERCEPTION.. ftalphaville.ft.com/ is worth reading on Spanish debt... as close to market views for free as you can get and easily unserstand .. for a layman...like me. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 16:45
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> I was very careful to say " perception of your ability to pay " OK, fine madf, if you want to be that pedantic. Naturally it is all perception. How could I have meant anything else? For any lender it is their perception of your ability to pay, how could it be anything else? Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 20:47
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 14:56
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Zero
|
|
>Time will tell who is right You have no idea how the international money markets work Its very simple, the more your debt builds, the less people think you can pay it off. One of the major credit ratings cuts your rating and the money you have borrowed suddenly becomes twice as dear to repay. People become less convinced you can pay it back, and the rating drops and your debt becomes dearer. This country was on the verge of having its credit rating cut. Its not a matter of actual money, its confidence. Now as I said, toddle over the Ireland and see how a refusal to consider paying back debt in these times has crippled them. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 15:35
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> You have no idea how the international money markets work I'm not even sure you know what a money market is. When did I say that they would be borrowing on the money markets? They may well of course. Regardless, you are right that it is about confidence, which exactly why it is not simply about debt, it is about how likely it is that the markets think you will be able to repay it. If you aren't making money, you aren't going to be able to pay off debt, no matter how free of debt you are. Which is exactly what I said above. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 12:50
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> SteelSpark, in amongst the left-wing dogma you spout, you make the following astonishingly ill-informed statement. >> >> >>[The Tories shouldn't have cut so much but instead carried on spending because] the UK >> can still borrow quite cheaply. Oh come on Mapmaker, I didn't say that. I said that cutting is easy, but building sustainable growth isn't. And I further pointed out that sometimes you need to invest, rather than cut, and that we could do that. I am not saying the Tories are wrong, just that we shouldn't applaud them for just doing the easy bit, until we hear how they are going to do the hard bit. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:03
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Tooslow
|
|
It is the government's job to persuade private enterprise to invest by creating an environment which attracts business.. They have already made a start with a phased reduction in Corporation tax and by starting to repeal some of the burden of rules and regs so loved by Labour because it creates jobs for those with petty minds to enforce petty rules. You're going to tell me that the government should be investing. Well, yes, but only up to a point. They are investing. A new Forth Bridge for example and another across the Mersey (so Rattle's friend can get to work). But anyone who thinks that government investment is the sole solution thinks that that they can lift themselves up by their shoe laces. I'm surprised you're asking SS. None of this is new or surprising, all covered again and again in the papers. Could it be that you're not hearing messages you don't like? John |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:11
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
SQ >> I'm surprised you're asking SS. None of this is new or surprising, all covered again >> and again in the papers. Could it be that you're not hearing messages you don't >> like? Just not my expectation of a business plan. I would expect to have to show much more to my bank manager. Very vague, cut corp tax, undo some rules and everything will follow. Where are the specifics? What are their targets for new construction, what are their targets for technology in the UK, what are their plans that back that up. Bridges indeed! Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 13:40
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:14
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Tooslow
|
|
Ah, you want a five year plan! Now I understand. You need to go to Cuba with comrade Mike. John |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:25
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> Ah, you want a five year plan! Now I understand. You need to go to >> Cuba with comrade Mike. >> John Ah, so you are just happy to hear that they are making cuts, and giving you a vague "we are going to make the environment better for businesses". Now I understand. One born every minute, I guess. I'll send you a postcard from Cuba. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:06
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - John H
|
|
>> I am not saying the Tories are wrong, just that we shouldn't applaud them for >> just doing the easy bit, until we hear how they are going to do the >> hard bit. >> You think the easy bit is to cut? That takes the biscuit. Come on, SS, what topsy turvy world are you living on? If cuts are easy, look at what is happening in Greece: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11998632 One of the measures they are having to stomach is "On Tuesday, the Greek parliament voted through key economic reforms stipulated by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and European Union, which are funding the bail-out. The new legislation will cap the salaries of workers in state-run companies such as the public transport networks. In the private sector, employers will no longer have to abide by union-negotiated agreements and can set their own wages." www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-14/greek-strikers-to-halt-flights-buses-as-bailout-reality-bites.html About 89 percent of workers at state companies, known as DEKOs in Greece, will have wages reduced 10 percent .. . Last edited by: John H on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 13:11
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:13
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
SQ >> You think the easy bit is to cut? That takes the biscuit. Come on, SS, >> what topsy turvy world are you living on? A bit selective with the quoting there John. I did say that it was politically difficult. When I mean easy, I mean that it requires little imagination. I could go into any business tomorrow and start cutting, but could I put together a sustainable plan for growth? Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 13:40
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:36
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - John H
|
|
>> A bit selective with the quoting there John. I did say that it was politically >> difficult. >> Taking the easy option to argue your point? Why don't you quote the bits I left out that you think I should have left in. >> When I mean easy, I mean that it requires little imagination. I could go into >> any business tomorrow and start cutting, but could I put together a sustainable plan for >> growth? >> I don't think anyone here has a chance to change your perception or politics. I will have one last go at replying to your points: You want 5 year plans, look up the 2010 budget and the 2010 spending review. They are here in full: www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/Budget/Budget2010/DG_188496 www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_191696.pdf Here is an easy graphic showing the plan to spend circa £700 billion this fiscal year. www.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/dhtml_slides/10/tax_and_spending_3/img/s3v2.gif |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 14:11
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> >> A bit selective with the quoting there John. I did say that it was >> politically >> >> difficult. >> >> >> >> Taking the easy option to argue your point? >> Why don't you quote the bits I left out that you think I should have >> left in. This bit "The problem, of course, is that the cuts are the easy part (politically unpalatable, but easy), the difficult part is how you stimulate growth." |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:42
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - VxFan
|
|
>> A bit selective with the quoting there John. Far better though than quoting the entire message! SS, please can you just quote part of the message you're replying to rather than everything - thanks. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 13:59
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Mapmaker
|
|
Governments don't "invest", they spend. (Unless you're Gordon Brown, of course.) |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 14:15
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - SteelSpark
|
|
>> SS, please can you just quote part of the message you're replying to rather than >> everything - thanks. As far as I can tell, I have only quoted the parts that I have responded to. If somebody has made a point, I feel the need to include enough of that point to make sure that I showed their reasoning. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 14:27
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - DP
|
|
The cuts and deficit reduction measures are only on paper at the moment. Next year is when they become real, and start to bite. Then we will see how the support fares for the coalition. I'm not anti-cuts or anti-Cameron. I actually think he's a pleasant surprise, and seems much more in tune with the public than Brown or Blair ever were. But it's also true to say the unpleasant stuff, while planned and in place, hasn't actually happened yet. The last shower was my first experience of a Labour government as a working taxpayer, and I sincerely hope it's my last. Incompetence and waste beyond words. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 14:49
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Stuu
|
|
I think of these cuts much like having a dodgy organ removed. It hurts abit and gets steadily worse, then you cut out the bad bit, which hurts alot, then you recover and if you dont do anything, consequences will be much worse. The only reason people complain about the cuts is self-interest, because I expect they will be loosing their job and they are worried about themselves, so I do carry sympathy for their individual circumstances, but at the same time, they are not the voice of logic and reason, which is the one I want running the accounts department. Id define a good government by one that makes hard, sometimes unpopular choices for the greater good. In answer to the OP, I look at the Lib Dems now with far more respect than I ever did before because they are getting their hands dirty, which will make them more realistic, something the Lib Dems never had a grasp on before. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 14:52
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - madf
|
|
>>The last shower was my first experience of a Labour government as a working taxpayer, and I sincerely hope it's my last. Incompetence and waste beyond words. I lived and paid taxes in the Wilson/Callaghan years. Incompetents all. The Tories under Heath were no better but they did of course dump him . Unfortunately there are enough dimwits/people on benefit who believe Labour Governments are good. Despite an unparalleled track record of failure and insults from Brown... Anyone who sincerely thinks politicians are good and does not approach them with scepticism and mistrust is destined to be screwed by them.. Many Conservative Governments were no better - see Major or Heath - but we did not have this holier than thou pious attitude of "Government knows best: do as we say : Just don't stop us enriching oursleves at your expense". |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 14:59
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - R.P.
|
| As I said to a my dear old dad - when he said that "those Tories are all millionaires" They made millions and more importantly they manages to hold onto their wealth - sounds good to me. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 15:06
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - madf
|
|
Or as Berlusconi said " The socialists love the poor. They love them so much that when they leave power, they have created more of them"...
Last edited by: madf on Thu 16 Dec 10 at 15:06
|
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 20:46
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - VxFan
|
|
>> As far as I can tell, I have only quoted the parts that I have responded to. No, you quoted EVERYTHING - instead of summarising the post with relevant text. >> If somebody has made a point, I feel the need to include enough of that point to make sure that I showed their reasoning. Sigh! |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 21:02
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Leif
|
|
Have the Lib Dems blown it? Probably. At least for a while. The British cannot cope with a coalition. I remember when Britain almost went bankrupt under a Labour government. And when the dead went unburied, and rubbish piled up in the streets. A large section of the British will always go for the sugar coated spin of Labour. I reckon Cameron has it right. Get the hard stuff out of the way as fast as possible, let us suffer at the start of the term, and see the gains towards the end, when our fickle memories will have forgotten the hard times. If that is how it pans out, the Tories will gain, and the Liberals might too. They might also be forced to campaign aggressively against the Tories, and claim that they acted for the common good. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 23:08
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - rtj70
|
|
>> I reckon Cameron has it right. Get the hard stuff out of the way as fast as possible, let us >> suffer at the start of the term, and see the gains towards the end, when our fickle memories >> will have forgotten the hard times. I think you're right. But we need to do the cuts as soon as possible for maximum effect. We don't want to go down the PIIGS route. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 23:28
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Leif
|
|
>> I think you're right. But we need to do the cuts as soon as possible >> for maximum effect. We don't want to go down the PIIGS route. Yes, I agree with that. Politically and economically it makes sense. |
|
New Thu 16 Dec 10 23:43
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - rtj70
|
|
>> Yes, I agree with that. Politically and economically it makes sense. Not for all those working in the public sector about to lose jobs though. |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 07:25
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Leif
|
|
>> >> Yes, I agree with that. Politically and economically it makes sense. >> >> Not for all those working in the public sector about to lose jobs though. It has been said that most if not all job losses will be by attrition e.g. retirement rather than laying off. Anyway, a bloated public sector is not healthy. The shame is that in so many northern towns the public sector is the main employer. |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 09:51
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Zero
|
|
>> shame is that in so many northern towns the public sector is the main employer. Mostly non jobs created by the previous government to massage the employment figures and buy votes. |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 12:58
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Stuu
|
| Which is IMO more cynical than cutting the jobs. Giving false hope of secure employment for political reasons is really low. |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 13:12
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - madf
|
|
If a Conservative Government gave a bank £5 billion to employ lots of bankers to produce a Governemnet Bond which subsequently turned out to be useless, all the leftwingers would go wild with anger. Quite rightly too. But when we build two aircraft carriers we cannot afford (£5 billion) - to keep a load of Scots in jobs - .... |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 13:16
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Alanovich
|
|
>> But when we build two aircraft carriers we cannot afford (£5 billion) - to keep >> a load of Scots in jobs - .... >> So you'd approve if the ships were built in, say, Southampton for argument's sake? |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 13:18
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Stuu
|
|
Depends what party holds the seat there really doesnt it. I expect Boris would like to see them built in Henley :-) |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 13:17
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - John H
|
|
>> Mostly non jobs >> examples: Job title: Future Shape programme co-ordinator Salary: [pounds sterling]70,189 a year. employer: North East Lincolnshire. Job description: 'To shape, challenge and co-ordinate the Future Shape programme. Job title: Climate change officer Salary: [pounds sterling]20,198-[pounds sterling]26,276 a year. employer: Gloucestershire County Council. Job description: 'A motivated self-starter who will champion the environment in our sustainability team. Job title: Communications director. Salary: [pounds sterling]700 a day - equivalent to [pounds sterling]182,000 a year. employer: Suffolk County Council. Job description: To bring 'a proactive approach to communications, particularly in media management, including campaigns, media public relations, marketing, events, publications, branding and web'. Job title: Wellbeing officer Salary: [pounds sterling]34,500 a year employer: Elmbridge, Surrey Job description: The council provides staff with holistic therapies, such as organic facial skincare treatment, aromatherapy and pedicures. It also offers a 24-hour 'life management' helpline as well as an annual health and lifestyle check. Job title: Communications waste strategy officer Salary: [pounds sterling]35,055 employer: Hackney, London Job description: To improve public relations on recycling and refuse policy. The job came to the notice of Communities Secretary Eric Pickles, who said 'one council is even advertising for someone to spin for their bins'. Hackney froze the post. Job title Weekend explainer Salary: [pounds sterling]8.81 an hour employer: Bracknell Forest Council Job description: Although the exact duties were unclear, one responsibility was 'presenting our science shows to the public'. Job title: Access to nature officer Salary: [pounds sterling]17,161 to [pounds sterling]19,126 in 2010 employer: Charnwood Borough Council Job description: A person who could increase 'the community's sense of ownership of local natural places and green spaces'. Job title: Community well-being co-ordinator Salary: [pounds sterling]35,399 to [pounds sterling]38,711 in 2010. employer: East Ayrshire Council Job description: The role is to ensure taxpayers feel good about life. |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 13:21
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Stuu
|
| Oh thats a brilliant list. Who does these jobs? What a fun world we live in. Im sure there must be a public awareness of car valeting job somewhere I can do, or at the very least, labour would have created it eventually :-) |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 13:27
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Alanovich
|
|
>> Job title Weekend explainer Salary: [pounds sterling]8.81 an hour employer: Bracknell Forest Council Job description: >> Although the exact duties were unclear, one responsibility was 'presenting our science shows to the >> public'. I expect that was for their really rather excellent "Outlook" Centre. Google it for details. Probably for a teenager/science student to run the scientific experiments and demonstrations which they put on for visiting children. My son's school did a day trip there recently and the teachers found it hard to drag the children away. It's easy to make something look stupid when you can be pretty sure the readership is going to be receptive of the idea that public service jobs are worthless. And it's easy to mock if you have absolutley no idea what you're talking about. This is an 8-pound an hour job for a student to earn some pocket money - which students are particularly in need of these days. Hardly the end of the world. |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 14:29
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - madf
|
|
I say set two rates of tax. A minimum level applicable to all. And then an additional tax level. Anyone - but anyone - who wants to champion any spending increase has got to find 500,000 people supporting their cause.. and they all have to pay the increased rate of tax.. with a minimum fixed amount irrespective of their earnings. That would have some interesting results. As for the dig about supporting the English making carriers... I treat it with the contempt it deserves . The English don't build carriers: only submarines. Both of course are worthless unless we intend to nuke the taliban ..:-) Last edited by: madf on Fri 17 Dec 10 at 14:29
|
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 14:37
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - John H
|
|
>> It's easy to make something look stupid when you can be pretty sure the readership >> is going to be receptive of the idea that public service jobs are worthless. And >> it's easy to mock if you have absolutley no idea what you're talking about. >> Here are some more, advertised in the weekly Guardian Jobzilla, for you to justify: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1126469/Week-Jobzilla-Lingo-Bingo-It-win-500--.html www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1116483/Eyes-game-Jobzilla-Lingo-Bingo-It-win-500-.html www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23379751-88m-fed-to-jobzilla-the-creator-of-non-jobs.do |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 15:05
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - Alanovich
|
|
How can I possibly justify everything? The one I commented on is an educated guess on my part, and I am merely trying to point out that it is not possible for any of us to say that, across the board, all these jobs are unjustifiable. Some may be, some may not be. I just like to stand up to the dailymailisation of opinion wherever I see it, and point out that there are always two sides to every coin. A simple matter of openmindeness against believing everything you read. |
|
New Fri 17 Dec 10 15:49
Have the Lib Dems blown it? - madf
|
|
Simple rule of thumb on public service jobs. If the advert is written with modern businessspeak, it's a waste of time. Edit and what's wrong with the Daily Mail.? Better than the hypocrites in the Guardian with their public school education and foreign villas preaching about equality when they clearly don't believe in it. PD I don't read the Mail. Do the Gaurdian: it's great...for a laugh. Last edited by: madf on Fri 17 Dec 10 at 15:50
|
Forum Version 3.0 - By Khoosys
Car4play Forum
