Two questions for the panel.
1. According to everyone except the outgoing Labour party we are broke, the reasons for it don't really matter as it's water under the bridge now.
If we really are in dire finacial straits, why has foreign aid been ring fenced unlike seemingly everything else?
2. Why are we still in the EU with the mind boggling costs involved?
If we managed to find a politician with a set that was acceptable to the electorate (maybe i should have said acceptable to the media and vested interests), who was prepared to remove us from the EU (assuming that's even possible after Lisbon) would we as a country lose out and if so how, or conversely what benefits do we get, or have we received, from the EU for all our contributions?
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And don't forget the £7bn cuts (in services I believe) that was made followed by two months later £7bn bail out for Ireland.
Last edited by: diddy1234 on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 12:24
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Norway and Switzerland seem to manage outside the EU. Why can't we?
I get really cheesed off at passport control when there is a large queue that citizens of the UK are given priority treatment - after all it should be far quicker to process a UK passport than any other.
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>> Norway and Switzerland seem to manage outside the EU. Why can't we?
>>
Switzerland, I don't know. Maybe banking.
Norway, oil and gas. It is state owned, they use little oil and no gas but sell lots, much of it to us, exporting their CO2 for us to worry about.
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>> And don't forget the £7bn cuts (in services I believe) that was made followed by
>> two months later £7bn bail out for Ireland.
>>
The £7bn loaned to Ireland is a very good deal. UK plc can borrow at x% and lend to Ireland at (x+4)%. Very good business to be in.
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>> Two questions for the panel.
>>
Join the BNP or EDL? ;-)
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From memory, EU membership was sold to us on the basis there would be trading advantages.
It was called the European Economic Community.
There may have been some trading benefits then, but I don't see any now.
What else is there?
I resent the bloated bureaucracy of the EU, its federalist ambitions and its meddling with the role of our parliament.
Time to leave.
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Same thing. Being rich means you have good credit so can borrow lots of money. Technically you are broke, but not until everyone wants their money back.
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>> There may have been some trading benefits then, but I don't see any now.
>>
Then you're simply not looking, as you won't like what you find as it will not suit your prejudices.
Zero has this argument spot on. Crikey, I need a nice cup of tea and a sit down.
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...Then you're simply not looking, as you won't like what you find as it will not suit your prejudices...
It's got nothing to do with prejudices, just observation.
Trade with Europe will not stop tomorrow if we leave the EU today.
The EU may have been a good idea at one time, but things move on.
Leaving all the Brussels garbage behind would be a breath of fresh air for everyone and blessed relief for business.
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I used to think like that. I even voted UKIP. Then I got involved in export sales for a while.
If we withdraw from the EU, the other members will simply trade with themselves rather than us, it wouldn't be worth the hassle/costs.
You think the Japanese will continue building cars in the UK if we're not in the EU?
Etc, etc... ad infinitum, ad nauseam................
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...You think the Japanese will continue building cars in the UK if we're not in the EU?...
Why shouldn't they?
Presumably, you are talking about the Japanese-owned UK factories exporting to the rest of Europe.
They will still be able to do that if we leave the EU.
What's going to change?
I imagine the factories already export to non-EU European countries.
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>> Presumably, you are talking about the Japanese-owned UK factories exporting to the rest of Europe.
>>
>> They will still be able to do that if we leave the EU.
>>
>> What's going to change?
The customers will have to pay and administer import duty. Far easier for Toyota/Nissan to build a factory in Slovakia. Which they could do at the drop of a hat.
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...The customers will have to pay and administer import duty...
Any country putting up import barriers risks reciprocal action.
I think it unlikely there would be a mass exodus of the Japanese manufacturers from the UK.
Our market - the UK one - is too important to them.
Don't they call it the land of money or treasure island or something?
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>> They will still be able to do that if we leave the EU.
>>
>> What's going to change?
Its called a Tarif.
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...Its called a Tarif....
Reciprocity, as I said.
You tax our stuff, we will tax yours.
We can do that, now that we are a sovereign nation again.
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Oh great. That'll make everything cheaper now that we're all under financial pressure.
Triffic.
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...Oh great. That'll make everything cheaper now that we're all under financial pressure...
Which is why it's unlikely to happen.
Both sides realise there is little to be gained from a trade war, so our leaving the EU would have no impact in that respect.
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Try telling the Yanks.
Protectionism always crops up where it can, it's like knotweed.
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...Protectionism always crops up where it can, it's like knotweed...
OK, but if, say, the French spit the dummy because we've left the EU and they put up tariff barriers to UK-made cars, what do we do?
Tell 'em where to stick their Renaults, Peugeots and Citroens.
The French car companies would put enormous pressure on their government not to get involved in that type of trade war.
The whole scenario is just not very likely, which is why leaving the EU would not have the earth-shattering impact some on here seem to think it would.
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But we'd still buy their Peugeots, Renaults and Citroens becasue we don't make any cars (in any decent range and quantity) in the UK any more! And if we left the EU the Japs wouldn't take the chance of getting caught out by a trade war, and they'd leave the UK.
We'd just end up with everything more expensive here, and the remaining EU would be thumbing their noses at us.
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If we leave the EU, Vauxhall, Nissan and Honda factories are offski.
No cars made in UK, we import them all.
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I give up
Like i said, glad you have no sway or power in government.,
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>> Leaving all the Brussels garbage behind would be a breath of fresh air for everyone
>> and blessed relief for business.
Business wants us in europe.
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Stuff those, join the UKIP.
www.ukip.org/page/ukip-manifesto
The BNP are a lot of scumbags, and the "EDL" are about to disappear.
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time to leave the Eu huh?
Well if that happens I am off, this country will sink faster into the mire than you could ever realise.
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>> this country will sink faster into the mire>> than you could ever realise.
Why so?
[[Same thing. Being rich means you have good credit so can borrow lots of money]]
That might be one way to look at being 'rich', doesn't sound like any sort of financial security to me though...which some might find when mortgage rates rise.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 14:39
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>> Why so?
where is the majority of our trade?
what do marginalised countries do, come the great fight for resources, those that are not part of a strong political and trading block?
do I really need top spell this kind of stuff out?
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...where is the majority of our trade?...
China? USA? Commonwealth countries?
Just because we are not in the EU, it doesn't mean all EU countries will suddenly not trade with us.
They will do so if the terms are right.
You are taking too short a view.
We managed perfectly well without the EU, and our world will not tip on its axis if we leave it.
I wouldn't try to over-estimate the positive effects of leaving, we are not going to become automatically prosperous overnight.
The British people are temperamentally unsuited to EU membership, maybe it's the island mentality.
There's very little to lose, so it's time to go.
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>> ...where is the majority of our trade?...
>>
>> China? USA? Commonwealth countries?
no no no
>>
>> Just because we are not in the EU, it doesn't mean all EU countries will
>> suddenly not trade with us.
wanna bet? this is the french we are talking about.
>> They will do so if the terms are right.
>>
for them
>> You are taking too short a view.
Nope the long term view
>>
>> We managed perfectly well without the EU, and our world will not tip on its
>> axis if we leave it.
Thats was over 30 years ago, and why do you think we joined europe?
>>
>> I wouldn't try to over-estimate the positive effects of leaving, we are not going to
>> become automatically prosperous overnight.
>>
>> The British people are temperamentally unsuited to EU membership, maybe it's the island mentality.
cobblers
>>
>> There's very little to lose, so it's time to go.
I am really glad you are not in a position of national power.
>>
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>> >> ...where is the majority of our trade?...
>> >>
>> >> China? USA? Commonwealth countries?
>>
>> no no no
America is our largest single market (15% of all exports). But the next biggest single markets are Germany, the Netherlands, France, Ireland and Belgium. 55% of exports go to the Eurozone - 7% to Ireland. Unfortunately we export very little to China, far less than Germany.
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>> time to leave the Eu huh?
>>
>>
>> Well if that happens I am off, this country will sink faster into the mire
>> than you could ever realise.
Like Norway has sunk into the mire, eh? Switzerland, too. Sunk into the mire without trace.
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Neither are comparable to the uk, and well you know it
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The problem with UKIP and infact all proper Right-wing parties is that the Left have managed to tar them with the BNP brush, so nobody takes eurosceptics seriously these days. It is a huge shame because Right wing politics is not in the main anything to do with kicking anyone out of the country who isnt white, thats just the BNP agenda and I find it annoying that they are somehow seen as a representitive of the Right.
In this sense, UKIP have failed massively, they need to re-brand Right-wing politics in the same way that moderate Muslims need to rebrand Islam in the minds of the nation and pull away from the extremes that the public have in their minds.
Im curious how we would fare outside the EU although the way things are going, within my lifetime we may find out I suspect. Can only hope.
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One of UKIP's failings, so far as I know, is that they ony have one policy - "get out of Europe". But anyone who can be monumentally rude to Emperor Rumpy can't be all bad!
John
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Europe is one of the issues which makes me furious.
During my voting lifetime, I have never had any opportunity to make my feelings known about the issue - I would vote for getting out ASAP.
As far as I understand it, Europe was presented to the people as simply joining a free trade area during the referendum vote in the early 70's (was it 1973?) - and only a small number of politicians voiced any concern about giving up sovreignty, and the supremacy of parliament in making law for the UK. To use a modern phrase, "a flawed prospectus".
EDIT: Sorry - 1973 was when we signed the treaty of Rome, and the refendum was 1975
news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/6/newsid_2499000/2499297.stm
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 15:21
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Leaving the EU would also give us some much-needed control over immigration.
I've seen EU-country defendants in court receive the usual weedy sentence and a recommendation for deportation at the end of it.
"You can't do that your honour," says the defending barrister. "My client is from an EU member state and therefore cannot be deported."
Most of the EU migrants are economic not criminal, but they bale out as soon as the going gets tough - the Polish plumbers, for example.
I don't blame them, they are using the system to their own best advantage.
It's the system that needs changing, and quitting the EU would do that at a stroke.
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The vast majority of international trade we have is through The City which does not recognise EU borders or any borders. Like Switzerland we would barely suffer and probably see a significant increase in our financial health if we left the EU.
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...The vast majority of international trade we have is through The City which does not recognise EU borders or any borders...
The City of London would not suddenly become a ghost town if we left the EU.
It would remain one of the most desirable places on the planet to do business.
I was told Frankfurt was going to take over, but that was 30 years ago.
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>> I was told Frankfurt was going to take over, but that was 30 years ago.
"the city" is in danger of ceasing to exist. Financial trade is 24 electronic hours now. The days of a "financial centre" anywhere in the world are now being looked upon as a major overhead.
Virtual trading banks that exist, or not in any country - well - they dont pay tax.,
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 19:57
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UKIP has zero credibility. Period. A successful exit from the EU requires a detailed thought out economic strategy to cater for:
those companies who invested in the UK to export to the EU. If we leave the EU, they will leave the UK eventually.
those companies planning to invest in the UK who are put off by a Small UK attitude.
the inability of the UK to provide enough of its own citizens to do essential jobs in farming, nursing and medicine. We currently rely on immigrant labour.
Since UKIP has no policy that makes sense, then I suggest they are absolutely useless and deserve their current votes and MP numbers.
And those who want us to leave the EC must address these issues. I can see lots of good coming out of the results if thought through but of course it would mean a large section of the country currently on benefits losing them if they refuse to take a job if offered.. and I mean ANY job. Edit : and being effectivley forced to relocate to get a job.
Any party which thinks it through and spells it out currently does not exist..
Last edited by: madf on Mon 24 Jan 11 at 11:12
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>> "the city" is in danger of ceasing to exist.
Much of the reason for that is that the "EU" is against it being London based and being a money-spiner. They want it.
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>> Much of the reason for that is that the "EU" is against it being London
>> based and being a money-spiner. They want it.
The EU is not "THEY". It is "WE".
This is the prejudicial attitude which causes most of the knee-jerk dailymailist anti-Europe opinion in this country. Mindless, to coin a phrase.
Until that attitude is changed, we will always be outsiders in the organisation, rather than in control and truly reaping the benefits.
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...Mindless, to coin a phrase...
Just because someone disagrees with your view, it doesn't make them mindless or a Daily Mail reader.
All such remarks do is illustrate your own prejudice, if that's what you want to call it.
In the wider context, I see people who ought to know what they are talking about in both pro and anti-European camps.
So taking 'expert advice' doesn't assist me in making up my mind.
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>> Just because someone disagrees with your view, it doesn't make them mindless
Oh. Sorry. Thought that was accepted par for the course on here. Just trying to rub along with the in crowd.
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>> The EU is not "THEY". It is "WE".
Oh no it isn't. What was the "Common Market" could be us, though.
>> Until that attitude is changed, we will always be outsiders in the organisation
Good. We should in fact be completely outside the organisation, with the proviso above, of course.
Were this to be, of course, the "EU" as it currently exists would quite possibly collapse, with the removal of one of the most productive milch cows - us.
>> rather than in control and truly reaping the benefits.
France and Germany are in control. Three's a crowd. There is no tangible benefit to being in the "EU"
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>> France and Germany are in control. Three's a crowd. There is no tangible benefit to
>> being in the "EU"
>>
So leaving their gang will help. Righto. I expect we'll be able to make up for the lost business by selling our goods and services to Belize and The Central African Republic, will we?
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>> I expect we'll be able to make up for the lost business by selling our goods
>> and services to Belize and The Central African Republic, will we?
What lost business?
However, you are right that there's the whole of the rest of the world to do business. I don't know why you single out small ones - not the way I'd go to find business - there are much better opportunities than these globally, you know.
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>> However, you are right that there's the whole of the rest of the world to
>> do business. I don't know why you single out small ones - not the way
>> I'd go to find business - there are much better opportunities than these globally, you
>> know.
>>
Absolutely. We should make more of the Commonwealth for a start. But that's no reason to turn our backs on business on our doorstep.
Europe is already our biggest customer. Any businessman will tell you it's easier to keep and develop exisiting customers than to find new ones. And it'd be spectacularly daft to ignore the exisiting ones and focus on seeking out the new.
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>> >> However, you are right that there's the whole of the rest of the world to
>> >> do business. I don't know why you single out small ones - not the way
>> >> I'd go to find business - there are much better opportunities than these
>> >> globally, you know.
>>
>> Absolutely. We should make more of the Commonwealth for a start. But that's no reason
>> to turn our backs on business on our doorstep.
You mentioned lost business. Now you mention "turn our backs on business". I asked "What lost business?" above. So, what lost business?
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See my post at 11.13.
Now answer my question posted at 13.49.
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>> See my post at 11.13.
Yo are talking about leaving what used to be called the "Common Market". I'm not.
>> Now answer my question posted at 13.49.
Hang on.
Ah. See below.
Last edited by: FotheringtonTomas on Mon 24 Jan 11 at 13:56
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>> Yo are talking about leaving what used to be called the "Common Market". I'm not.
Oh, I see. You think we can renegotiate our position back to that of the original Common Market. Hmm. Sounds like a waste of time to me.
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>> >> "the city" is in danger of ceasing to exist.
>>
>> Much of the reason for that is that the "EU" is against it being London
Err No.
The reason is China, time zones, global economy and technology.
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>> The reason is China, time zones, global economy and technology.
Particularly the last one, I feel.
No need for frantic arm waving by guys wearing 'Biffo the Bear' blazers :-(
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>> >> >> "the city" is in danger of ceasing to exist.
>> >>
>> >> Much of the reason for that is that the "EU" is against it being
>> London
>>
>> Err No.
Err, yes. Changes mean that it will simply lose it's position.
>> The reason is China, time zones, global economy and technology.
Good reason not to tie the hands of the people who work there. Technology, as you say, is a driving force - there's no reason why one cannot deal with anyone in the world by using it - unless hamstrung bu a malignant structure such as the "EU's politicos.
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>> there's no reason why one cannot deal with
>> anyone in the world by using it - unless hamstrung bu a malignant structure such
>> as the "EU's politicos.
>>
How does the EU "hamstring" our business dealings outside of the EU precisely?
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>> >> there's no reason why one cannot deal with anyone in the world by using
>> >> it - unless hamstrung bu a malignant structure such as the "EU's politicos.
>>
>> How does the EU "hamstring" our business dealings outside of the EU precisely?
Rules, man, rules. Are you prepared to say that being in the "EU" does not in any way impede our ability to trade with anyone in the world in whatever way we want?
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>> Are you prepared to say that being in the "EU" does not
>> in any way impede our ability to trade with anyone in the world in whatever
>> way we want?
>>
Well when I was exporting British manufactured products globally, I never came across an EU specific rule which "impeded" me from selling anything to whomsoever I liked.
UN sanctions were a different matter.
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>> Rules, man, rules. Are you prepared to say that being in the "EU" does not
>> in any way impede our ability to trade with anyone in the world in whatever
>> way we want?
Of course being in the EU affects the way we trade with the rest of the world. We are part of EU trade agreements someof which work to our advantage and some may not. But being out of it would involve restrictions and downsides as well. the idea that we can found some sort of allaince based on the English speaking world is a complete fallacy. We already suffer too much from being the very junior partner in the 'special relationship', we'd have even less clout with Uncle Sam outside of the EU.
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>> >> >> >> "the city" is in danger of ceasing to exist.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Much of the reason for that is that the "EU" is against it
>> being
>> >> London
>> >>
>> >> Err No.
>>
>> Err, yes. Changes mean that it will simply lose it's position.
Nope Nothing to do with europe.
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>> One of UKIP's failings, so far as I know, is that they ony have one
>> policy - "get out of Europe".
That's a major part of their raison d'etre, however the manifesto at:
www.ukip.org/page/ukip-manifesto
indicates that there's more.
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UKIP has the same problem as any fringe party, as is evident when they have to put up someone for something more serious than a publicity stunt. No-hope parties attract no-hope politicians, squeezed out of the mainstream by people with the ability to rise to prominence in a party with some hope of gaining power, and trying their luck at being a big fish in a small and very scummy pond.
And no knee-jerk cynical claptrap, please, about all politicians being the same. Blair, Brown and Cameron are undoubtedly imperfect, but would you seriously consider putting Nigel Farrage in charge of anything? Even the White Van demographic he appeals to would struggle to find him a job he could actually do.
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Oh be fair. Nigel Farrage is competent as a politician. More competent than his party which elected some incompetent lord to follow him and went backwards as a result.
Farrage has made his fortune himself and is a clever and interesting speaker. And I still don't support UKIP...!
Last edited by: madf on Mon 24 Jan 11 at 14:01
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Ok, let's try to find the root cause for most of us being against EU.
Immigration can be divided among following groups
Skilled migrants - coming from EU and non-EU (the later bit has already been cut by recent rules) but they are fewer in numbers
Non skilled migrants - coming only from EU (and govt. can't control that) - quite large in number
Asylum/Refugees - coming from all over the world (and govt. can't control that)
Illegal immigrants - UKBA doesn't have a clue how many of them or how to control them.
Monetary policy - UK did not join in Euro, so we have control over our monetary policy (granted EU can still interfere anyway)
Boder control - UK is not part of Schengen area, so we can control our own borders (but how inept is UKBA that is different story)
We drive on left, we use miles/gallons etc. So we still have some uniqueness in spite of being in EU/EEA.
However,
Our benefits system is rubbish (too easy to claim benefits by any EU citizen)
Our justice system sucks (slap on wrist for serious crimes, face full force of law for minor offenses)
Our border control is non existant (UKBA thinks an illegal immigrant will come via main airports only with a valid passport)
Our government is useless (railway got privatised etc. etc.)
Our house prices are ludicrous (most Londoners are priced out from market)
Our religious tolerance (I better not explain that more) is too much
The list goes on....
So at the end, I believe, UK can still fix itself without leaving EU. Media is trying to project as if all problems are down to our inclusion in EU where in reality, a lot of problems are down to other factors.
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Does anyone SERIOUSLY expect UK judges to change their views on repatriating illegals because we have left the EC?
I mean send them back to where they could be shot or injured or imprisoned?
(And whether it is real or not is irrelevant).
I cannot see any change in that at all as our judiciary are indpendent of government (and common sense at the same time)
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>> Does anyone SERIOUSLY expect UK judges to change their views on repatriating illegals because we
>> have left the EC?
Judges are interpreting UK and international law. Their own personal views would, I suspect, be as wide ranging as those expreesed in this forum.
We cannot deport within the EU because of free movement rules Those would go if we left.
Sending people back to places where they could be shot/tortured affects their rights under European Convention on Human Rights. The convention has nowt to do with Brussels or the EU. It was a treaty we entered into after the last war and it would remain in force if we left.
Revoking the Humna Rights Act would make it more difficult to enforce convention rights in our own courts. It would not stop people going to the ECHR in the Hague.
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...Does anyone SERIOUSLY expect UK judges to change their views on repatriating illegals because we have left the EC?...
Just to be clear, my post about deportation related only to simple criminals - no human rights implications.
As an example, a Nigerian who committed credit card fraud over here might be recommended for deportation at the end of his sentence.
An EU citizen can carry out the same offence, receive the same sentence, but cannot be recommended for deportation.
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Nor can a Welshman or a Scot be deported for an offence committed in England. It's a compromise we make for the benefits of living in a greater whole. Zero has it right: we no longer have the clout to make it on our own, and in the EU we only lose out to France and Germany because we've persistently avoided committing ourselves.
We've heard a lot lately about WWII. We prevailed then thanks to a lot of individual bravery and hard work, and a lot of money borrowed from the US. After the war, the Truman administration recognised that the old great powers were gone for good and that Europe needed to unite in order to prosper. It was good enough - and self-interested enough - to help it to do so. Somehow, Britain clings to the idea that it's above all that and that its Special Relationship amounts to more than holding George Bush's coat while he throws America's weight about. Some of the sentiments expressed here suggest we didn't leave that behind in the 1940s.
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>> Some of the sentiments expressed
>> here suggest we didn't leave that behind in the 1940s.
Excellent post WDB, I agree with you entirely, Britain is not the workshop of the world anymore.
Though according to an article I am reading, 'Britain is still the second largest exporter of services in the world (compared to the sixth or seventh when it comes to goods). Even in a catastrophic year for the finances industry, 2009, Britains trade surplus in finance and business services was £47bn, covering more than half the deficit on goods'.
Last edited by: corax on Mon 24 Jan 11 at 20:37
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...Britain is still the second largest exporter of services in the world (compared to the sixth or seventh when it comes to goods)....
Will all that activity cease if we leave the EU?
Of course it won't.
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Some of it will, due to our export of services (and goods) becoming more expensive relative to other competitors within the EU, who will favour trading with eachother. Over and over again we have to explain the same thing.
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>> Will all that activity cease if we leave the EU?
>>
>> Of course it won't.
A dig at the Anti's generally not you Iffy but......
We've spent the last 38 years developing our trade in what, irrespective of its moves to federalism, is a tariff free Common Market. Any suggestion that we could simply 'cast off' from Europe and plough our own furrow without impact on employment, investment and lifestyle is, IMHO, incredibly naive.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 25 Jan 11 at 10:11
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Ecomies of course do not switch on and off due to changes in political and economic alliances.
But they do affect economies at the margin. And as we should all be aware, it's at the margin that things hurt or get better..
The difference between 0% GDP growth and 2% is "only" 2%.. but in economic terms it's the difference between growth and stagnation..
So all this talk of "our exports will continue" is of course true but misleading. Will they grow or fall? Or grow more slowly?
The differences in % terms may be small but the economic impacts can be quite large. And felt noticeably by tax payers and benefit recipients.
It's all marginal impacts. I note the lack of detailed economic studies!
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...A dig at the Anti's generally not you Iffy but...
No problems, I'm in one camp, your in the other, no more to it than that.
What I really don't understand is how are goods/services all of a sudden become more expensive in what remains of the EU when we leave.
I don't see that we will instantly be faced with tariff barriers all over the place, because any country seeking to impose one would know we would likely retaliate in kind.
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Without any of their own Governments encouragement, exports and services to the EU countries would simply decline, because we would be outside the tent. Probably perceived, rather than the tolerant view (excluding Ireland!) of the English as eccentric and hankering after former glories, as unfriendly losers.
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Tue 25 Jan 11 at 11:29
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>> We've heard a lot lately about WWII. We prevailed then thanks to a lot of individual bravery and hard work, and a lot of money borrowed from the US.
Er... and American industrial power which provided aircraft and tanks... and the US military who led the invasion of Europe... and the Soviet Union which probably lost more troops than we had to start with, and broke the Wehrmacht at Kursk and Stalingrad...
It was a right mess. No one has recovered yet.
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Are we broke or a rich nation. Also the EU. - diddy1234
