| Non-motoring > Radovan Karadić | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Armel Coussine | Replies: 41 |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 20:45
Radovan Karadić - Armel Coussine
|
|
The Serbian football federation (or whatever it's called) denies the 'racist chants' and missile throwing during yesterday's game and accuses a black England player of 'vulgar and unsportsmanlike behaviour' towards Serbian fans. Radovan Karadić, Bosnian Serb leader now on trial for various grave human rights abuses and war crimes, says he is a liberal psychiatrist and all-round good bloke innocent of the many mass murders he ordered. Serbian nationalist ideology is the slimiest farrago of lying carp you ever heard in your life. Is there after all something that one could call a 'national characteristic'? I think we should be told. There's something truly disgusting about barefaced lying in the face of all the evidence. Nursery school playground writ large and incredibly evil. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 20:52
Radovan Karadić - Lygonos
|
|
Are you referring to the "indigenous population" who all share some "national characteristic"? Pretty sure that guff isn't just restricted to Serbia. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 20:58
Radovan Karadić - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> that guff Serbian nationalism is expansionist Lygonos. And the ideology, skewed history included, has to be heard to be believed. Everyone's history is invented and constructed. But some histories are more fanciful, and more falsified, than others. For whinging and bullying excrement the mainstream Serbian stuff takes a lot of beating. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 21:01
Radovan Karadić - R.P.
|
| I thought he was pitching for the next Nobel Peace Prize when I heard his little self-plaudite on the radio. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 21:08
Radovan Karadić - Kevin
|
|
>I thought he was pitching for the next Nobel Peace Prize.. He'd heard that the EU got one and thought it was worth a punt, apparently. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 21:11
Radovan Karadić - R.P.
|
| You read my mind. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 21:16
Radovan Karadić - Bromptonaut
|
| David Owen, trying to act as a mediator in the Balkans described Milosevic and Karadic as developing lying as an art form. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 21:18
Radovan Karadić - Roger.
|
| As an ex Liberal politician, he should know. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 21:21
Radovan Karadić - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> As an ex Liberal politician, he should know. He was never a Liberal. Declined to join the LidDems and went of on his own as a rump SDP. The Single Doctor Party as the wags had it. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 21:24
Radovan Karadić - Zero
|
|
>> I thought he was pitching for the next Nobel Peace Prize when I heard his >> little self-plaudite on the radio. You have to admire a bloke who can think that far outside the box. |
|
Wed 17 Oct 12 22:12
Radovan Karadić - R.P.
|
| I don't think anyone else would put David Owen in the same league as Mr K. Dr Owen was/is a decent man who worked hard for peace in the area. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 02:09
Radovan Karadić - devonite
|
|
>>>> I thought he was pitching for the next Nobel Peace Prize when I heard his >> little self-plaudite on the radio. You have to admire a bloke who can think that far outside the box. Just have to hope he`s proved right! - cos if he shoots himself in the foot, he could end up here! |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 09:54
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
My Serbian wife is utterly disgusted and appalled (not to say extremely embarrassed) at the behaviour of the Serb team and fans at that match, and the Serb FA. She, and everyone I know in Serbia (and indeed the ethnic Serbs I know who still live in Croatia and Bosnia), is watching the Karadzic trial closely, hoping for a guilty verdict and justice to be done. Most people there are very sad that Milosevic didn't get what was coming to him. A half Serb/half English friend wrote this yesterday: "I think, though, to be fair, when you're one of the most central countries geographically, and you've been invaded by pretty much every power since the Ottomans, and by a load of other countries too, as well as seeing the boundaries of your country systematically reduced over a course of years, whilst other nations involved in the conflicts never, ever seem to get any bad press, despite shocking acts being perpetrated on both sides, it may get a little ingrained in the national mentality to go on the defensive." Well put, but you can take the invasion stuff much further back than the Ottomans, and right up in to living memory. Yes, Serbian nationalism is a vile creed, however it's not the only nation guilty of harbouring such minority views and does not deserve to be singled out, particularly when we're still a long way from securing a lasting peace in the Balkans. Bosnia could easily go up again, as could Kosovo, and we'd be well advised to keep the anti-Serb rhetoric on the back burner, for fear of feeding the nationalist minority once again. Let's not also forget the Croat nation's involvement in WWII (Ustasha), which side it threw itself on, and who the Serbs were with during those times. Serbia fought a magnificent campaign against the Nazis, despite being surrounded by Axis nations such as Croatia and Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria. When speaking of this Serb nationalism, and remembering all that was done in its name, we also have to remember the millions (yes, millions) who took to the streets of Belgrade during the wars and during Milosevic's regime, to protest and try to remove the despot from power, and put a stop to it all. During my wife's student years she was part of these protests, which often lasted for months on end, through harsh winters, clogging the centre of Belgrade day after day, night after night. These things are forgotten in the West, and were barely reported at the time. Let's have some balance please, when we're thinking of coating the reputation of entire nations in the brown stuff. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 10:14
Radovan Karadić - sooty123
|
| Interesting thoughts, I always like to read things from the another perspective. I suppose it is easy to lump too many people in together when discussing countries and their attitudes in general. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 11:31
Radovan Karadić - Pat
|
|
So do I, that's why I love the wide and diverse opinions we get in this forum. Pat |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 11:45
Radovan Karadić - sooty123
|
| Yes on here too, although I meant foriegn media online newspapers and the such. I find them a better source of news and feel I better informed than if I read UK versions. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 13:39
Radovan Karadić - Cliff Pope
|
| I think any party or nation that has the concept of a "Greater Ruritania" in its psyche, based on historically wider borders than it now enjoys, is not going to be a force for stability in a region. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 14:02
Radovan Karadić - TeeCee
|
|
>> Let's not also forget the Croat nation's involvement in WWII (Ustasha), which side it >>threw itself on, and who the Serbs were with during those times. Serbia fought a >>magnificent campaign against the Nazis, despite being surrounded by Axis nations such >>as Croatia and Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria. Actually let's all forget that. That was then, this is now. The Serbs have been trotting out "we were on the right side in WWII" as if it were some sort of "get out of jail free card", giving them the right to behave like complete SOBs to everyone else, for so long now it's not funny. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 14:21
Radovan Karadić - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> The Serbs have been trotting out "we were on the right side in WWII" as if it were some sort of "get out of jail free card", giving them the right to behave like complete SOBs to everyone else, for so long now it's not funny. That is indeed about the size of it. During the wars following the disintegration of Yugoslavia, which the ghastly Milosevic had launched in the hope of expanding Serbia into large areas of Bosnia and other former Yugoslav states by killing and terrorizing the region's non-Serb inhabitants, Milosevic continued to pose as general secretary of the Yugoslav Communist Party and claim that he had been trying to hold the federation together (the opposite of the truth). I remember vividly the donkey-like lefties of my acquaintance who were inclined to believe all that. Others behaved badly in those wars, but in numerical terms they were fairly feeble compared to the Serbs. Nevertheless I take Alanovic's point about the many Serbs who resisted those processes and didn't follow Milosevic or Karadic. Perhaps the remark about 'national characteristics' was a step too far in the context. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 14:30
Radovan Karadić - Dutchie
|
| How to defy a national characteristic A.C.People are individuals but to control the masses is easy.Look how Hitler archieved it.Mention National pride we are better than them foreigners and the one who shouts the loudest is listened to.It is easy to fall for the hype and history always repeats itself. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 14:47
Radovan Karadić - L'escargot
|
|
>> People are individuals but to control the masses is >> easy. Look how Hitler archieved it. Hitler didn't control the German population. He got their support by telling/promising them what they wanted to hear. You only have to watch television/film footage of his political rallies to realise that the German population attending these rallies was totally in favour of his ideals and plans. Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 18 Oct 12 at 14:50
|
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 15:24
Radovan Karadić - Zero
|
|
>> >> People are individuals but to control the masses is >> >> easy. Look how Hitler archieved it. >> >> Hitler didn't control the German population. He got their support by telling/promising them what they >> wanted to hear. You only have to watch television/film footage of his political rallies to >> realise that the German population attending these rallies was totally in favour of his ideals >> and plans. Think you'll find thats a well know form of control. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 17:52
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
>> >> The Serbs have been trotting out "we were on the right side in WWII" >> as if it were some sort of "get out of jail free card", giving them >> the right to behave like complete SOBs to everyone else, for so long now it's >> not funny. >> >> That is indeed about the size of it. No, it isn't the size of it. It's the size of it that is best known in the west. It is not the whole picture by a very, very wide margin. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 20:07
Radovan Karadić - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> No, it isn't the size of it. It's the size of it that is best known in the west. It is not the whole picture by a very, very wide margin. I suppose you're right again Alanovic. But I don't think the west has it in for Serbia or Serbs in particular. You have to remember what happened in the 90s wars, who was systematically aggressive, who did a majority of the worst atrocities. It's all very well to say that Serbia in relaxed mood is much like anywhere else. No doubt it is. But if you were a survivor from Omarska or a miraculous escapee from some other horrid mass murder or torturefest you might take a different view. Milosevic, Karadić, Mladic and others - all Serbian nationalists - let the Serbs in for this and influenced outside perceptions of the country. 'No one loves us!' the carphounds cried as they casually lobbed shells into the Bosnian capital from the hills around it. Quite right, no one does, and who could blame them? |
|
Fri 19 Oct 12 09:44
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
>> But if you were a survivor from Omarska or a >> miraculous escapee from some other horrid mass murder or torturefest you might take a different >> view. Well, I know several survivors of Croat perpetrated war crimes, I have in-laws who still live in what is probably now the only Serb majority village in Croatia, just outside Vukovar. There are missing people at the family's dinner table, disappeared, never to be found again. The evidence of war is still there to be seen in the burnt out buildings and bullet holes. And in the discrimination they suffer, their inability to get work in a country which barely recognises their existence, this the place they were born, where their ancestors have worked the land through centuries of various, usually foreign, rule. AC is right in that the greatest crime committed against the Serbs, however, was that committed by their unelected leaders. My brothers-in-law spent months living in dark, damp cellars in order to avoid the roaming groups of Arkan-inspired press gangs, seeking out youth to send to Kosovo to fight. If they'd have been found, or those who brought them food discovered, they'd have been shot on the spot, no doubt. The UN sanctions imposed upon the rump Yugoslavia, as is the usual effect of sanctions, really just served to impoverish the people and subject them to undue hardship and suffering, whilst the top brass got away with it. I used to visit the country during those times, the only road fuel available was smuggled petrol from Bulgaria, sold by black marketeers from the roadside in plastic pop bottles. Existence was hand-to-mouth. Relatives from over the new borders in Croatia and Bosnia risked pretty much everything to smuggle food and clothing to Belgrade. And yet still they filled the streets, still the tried to remove Milosevic and his henchmen, still they tried all they could, peacefully, to put an end to it. TeeCee is probably right, it's time to move on from the prejudices of WWII. But that being the case, surely we should be trying to move on from the 90s also, not entrenching the feeling of isolation and persecution some of the Serbs feel. I guess my experiences and connections enable me to take a balanced view, something which is severely lacking in the Western commentary on the Yugoslav civil wars. History is always written by the victor, let's not forget. Yes, perhaps the Serbian army and its leadership was the biggest perpetrator of crimes in the civil wars. That does not exonerate the other nations involved, it does not mean that we should continue taking a hard line against a now democratic and peaceful nation, and it does not mean the Serbian people at large were responsible for, nor supportive of the crimes, which took place. It is now encumbent upon Europe and the world to help all the nations of the Balkans to move forward, find a new prosperity and security in harmony with eachother, and by this path help stem the chance of any revival of the old nationalisms and violence. It's going to take at generation or maybe more, much as it will in that now mostly forgotten corner of the United Kingdom called Ulster. A bit of glass houses, here, is there not? |
|
Fri 19 Oct 12 14:43
Radovan Karadić - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> the greatest crime committed against the Serbs, however, was that committed by their unelected leaders. You could say so. I don't want to go on needling decent humane Serbs, who were and are many. But one has to remember that the atrocities weren't committed by these 'nationalist' leaders all by themselves, aided only by a few nasty sadistic paramilitaries. As in the case of nazi Germany (with which there are a few parallels here), quite a lot of the horrors in Bosnia, in places like Prijedor, were committed by people's neighbours with whom they had lived in relative harmony for many years. The trouble with these really toxic ideologies is that they seem to offer something to those willing to go along with them. So with ethnic Germans in Poland and Czechoslovakia, eager to steal the property of their Jewish and Slavic neighbours; and so with ethnic Serbs especially in Bosnia. Those with a more humane, mature outlook, able to resist bad mainstream views, are not necessarily a majority. Among the Serbs who were decent all along there must be more than a few with very guilty memories, glad to have got away with it. By the way, can it be said that there were any 'victors' in the Yugoslav events? There were losers all right. And I don't see Serbia as a loser in the context. |
|
Fri 19 Oct 12 15:02
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
You're quite right in almost everything you say there, AC. It's this bit.......: >> Those with a more humane, mature outlook, able to resist bad mainstream views, are not necessarily a majority. .......with which I would disagree. I would argue that they are, as with any nationality I can think of. I don't truly think there's a single nationality on Earth whose majority is in the inhumane camp. Serbs very much included. I don't think you believe that, either. The majority of a population can, of course, be coerced in to turning the blind eye. As has been shown by many, many nations over the centuries. I think it unfair an unbalanced to continue singling out the Serbian nation for cirticism on this count, although the remaining bellicose nationalist minority can tend to appear a majority voice at first glance. Yes, there were victors. Slovene, Croat and Albanian (Kosovar) Nationalists seem to have achieved their stated aims of independence from the Yugoslav Federation. All well and good, if that's what they want, they've got it. Bosnia remains a moot issue. The sad thing is to imagine what an undivided Yugoslavia could have achieved. It was a wealthy nation with a sound manufacturing base and extensive agricultural output. It could have been a major EU player if the nations had piped down and got on with eachother, rather than declaring independence and precipitating the inevitable conflicts - inevitable given the intertwined nature of ethnicities within its original borders. What hasn't been mentioned here and is seldom discussed is the nationalist philosophy and ideology of Franjo Tudjman and his like on the Croat side. Broadly similar to and equally as vile, divisive and aggressive as that displayed by Milosevic. One of them got away with it, the other didn't and ended up in The Hague. Clearly, there is a victor in that situation. |
|
Fri 19 Oct 12 15:10
Radovan Karadić - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> What hasn't been mentioned here and is seldom discussed is the nationalist philosophy and ideology >> of Franjo Tudjman and his like on the Croat side. Broadly similar to and equally >> as vile, divisive and aggressive as that displayed by Milosevic. One of them got away >> with it, the other didn't and ended up in The Hague. Clearly, there is a >> victor in that situation. My Father, who visited Cszekoslovakia in 1946/7 and took a keen interest in Central European politics' regarded Tudjman as a species of fascist. |
|
Fri 19 Oct 12 15:16
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
Bromp Snr was correct. No surprise, given the Croat WWII associations. Although that other famous Croat, Tito, managed to avoid that path. Croat forces during WWII rounded up all the Serb women and children in my MIL's village (MIL a child at the time), and locked them in the local church. They were busily going about setting the fires which would consume them all, when a German detachment happened upon the scene. Appalled at the actions of their allies, they liberated everyone from the church and set upon the Croat soldiery. Complicated times. |
|
Fri 19 Oct 12 15:42
Radovan Karadić - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> Yes, there were victors. Slovene, Croat and Albanian (Kosovar) Nationalists seem to have achieved their stated aims of independence from the Yugoslav Federation. I do know that Tudjman and others in other states were pretty nasty and did pretty nasty things along the lines we have been discussing. But the 'Yugoslav Federation' which Milosevic continued to claim to represent had in reality been torpedoed by his nationalist agenda and no longer existed. I see Serbian expansionist nationalism as the factor that provoked the breakup of Yugoslavia: a question of timing and scale. But I agree that once there's a general barney going on it becomes difficult to choose between all the lying pointing fingers, and people can favour, consciously or unconsciously, their own social or ethnic or political preferences or prejudices. I don't really have enough detailed knowledge to persist into the small print, Alanovic, and since you are very clearly an honest and reasonable individual I am happy to leave it there without feeling bruised. |
|
Fri 19 Oct 12 15:48
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
>> since you are very clearly an honest and reasonable individual I am happy to leave >> it there without feeling bruised. >> Reciprocated. |
|
Fri 19 Oct 12 19:37
Radovan Karadić - Armel Coussine
|
|
>> humane, mature outlook, able to resist bad mainstream views, are not necessarily a majority. There are a lot of people in all societies, a majority probably, who are preoccupied with their own affairs, a bit confused about politics and none too bright. Such people may be humane up to a point, but fairly easily intimidated, tempted and corralled into a bad mainstream agenda - like Germans under Hitler, although that was a pretty special case. They don't all have the independence of mind to resist crap ideology. That was what I meant, not that a majority is 'bad'. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 14:23
Radovan Karadić - Dutchie
|
| I remember Yugoslavia under president Tito.What possessed the Serbian to slaughter he Croates is beyond me.Scary how people can behave under certain leaders. |
|
Fri 19 Oct 12 07:19
Radovan Karadić - L'escargot
|
|
>> I remember Yugoslavia under president Tito. I was in the same digs as a Yugoslavian at the time. The only Croation words he taught us was a swear word beginning with the letter j and the word ti. He applied the phrase to Tito. |
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 17:44
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
In response to TeeCee: Merely bringing in some historical context behind the tensions between the nations of the old Yugoslavia. If you're suggesting that history's got nothing to do with it, you're away with the fairies. It is obvious to those who wish to think about it that it is not simply a case of "Serbs bad", as it is presented to us so often. Last edited by: Alanović on Thu 18 Oct 12 at 17:45
|
|
Thu 18 Oct 12 19:43
Radovan Karadić - WillDeBeest
|
|
I spent a morning last week with a roomful of Serbs. All very charming and pleasant - and the one room in Serbia where smoking is not compulsory - and to be honest it didn't occur to me to wonder who had been on which side. Nice coffee, too. The political talk there now is of the recent, inconclusive election and the subsequent carve-up of top jobs in state enterprises. The will seems to be to move on and rebuild - and with some business indicators still at 50% of their pre-war levels there's a lot of rebuilding to do. It also impressed me that it takes less time for a UK passport holder to get into Serbia than to get into the UK, but then that's also true of Kenya, South Africa... |
|
Fri 16 Nov 12 11:54
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
Oh dear. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20352187 Croat shelling of civilians is lawful, but similar Serbian action is genocide. The expulsion of 200,000 Serb civilians from their homes is lawful, similar expulsions carried out by Serb forces is ethnic cleansing and illegal. We wonder why the Serbs think we've got it in for them. It's not hard to see why. More grist for the revolting extreme Serb nationalist parties and their mill. What a joke. Moderates will soon be flocking to them. What a tragedy. |
|
Fri 16 Nov 12 12:20
Radovan Karadić - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> Oh dear. >> >> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20352187 Not sure about this. There's a specific definition of war crime. It's not the same as civilians in crossfire or as accidental collateral. Whether the tribunals find guilt or acquit one side is going to be left with a feeling of injustice. But if we cannot trust international bodies to sort these things we're back to square 1. |
|
Fri 16 Nov 12 12:31
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
| Yes, 200,000 civilian refugees must be accidental. I see that now. I love Big Brother. |
|
Fri 30 Nov 12 11:43
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
There's more: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20536318 and: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20546292 |
|
Mon 3 Dec 12 11:54
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
At least the BBC are covering the feeling of injustice in Serbia at the moment: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20545798 Interesting comments about Croatia's forthcoming accession to the EU next year. |
|
Wed 5 Dec 12 12:31
Radovan Karadić - Alanovich
|
|
Obviously it is unclear what caused this new tragedy, but it has happened at a very sensitive stage in the war crime tribunal proceedings: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20607639 |
Forum Version 3.0 - By Khoosys
Car4play Forum
