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People seem to be getting very excited as to the exact percentage of safety that can be attributed to a COVID-19 vaccine. So for context;
The flu vaccine is 67% effective.
The chickenpox vaccine is 82% effective.
The whooping cough vaccine is 80% effective rising to 90% after the final (fifth) dose.
One dose of the MMR vaccine is 91% effective, two doses is 97% effective.
Two doses of the polio vaccine is 90% effective climbing to 99% with three doses.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 3 Jan 21 at 03:40
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Could have had the jab today but was just leaving work and they don't recommend you drive straight after having it.
I'll probably get a call first thing tomorrow when I'm on duty.
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>> Could have had the jab today but was just leaving work and they don't recommend
>> you drive straight after having it.
>>
>> I'll probably get a call first thing tomorrow when I'm on duty.
>>
>>
>> well you should have taken the opportunity to have a few pints.....
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>>Could have had the jab today
Likewise, but have delayed it til Tuesday when I'm off work.
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Vaccines should be voluntary.
I won't be taken anything yet my decision.
We take Vit D everyday eat good food.
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Yes, vaccines should be voluntary.
As should letting unvaccinated people without a Doctor's certificate on trains, planes and buses. letting them in shops or football grounds, or indeed anywhere outside their own selfish little environment.
You don't want to play your part, then you shouldn't be part.
As you say, your choice.
>>We take Vit D everyday eat good food.
So what?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 13 Dec 20 at 15:34
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It’s worth remembering that at the moment none of the vaccines are claiming that they reduce the likelihood of transmission, only the effects of infection. So while it's entirely possible that being vaccinated will reduce the risk of you infecting others, there is also no evidence that this is the case since that has not been part of the testing programme so far. Therefore assuming the vaccines are effective as stated - and safe - you would take them to reduce the risk to yourself, and by extension reduce the demand you might place on the health service by getting ill.
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>>none of the vaccines is claiming that they reduce the likelihood of transmission
Certainly the anti-vax folk are saying that but it's ridiculous to think that vaccination won't reduce infectiousness. If you don't have the disease you won't be coughing as much virus around for a start, even if you had virus on board and without considering the actual viral load.
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The only upside is that one would assume anti-vaxxers are more likely to die, which is kind of a win-win.
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Indeed... our twice weekly trust briefing have already mentioned that we (the UK) can expect to still be undertaking the current masking wearing, socially distancing measures well into the second half of 2021 (according to their DoH briefings).
Not sure if this will be dependant of the total numbers vaccinated.
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>> The only upside is that one would assume anti-vaxxers are more likely to die, which
>> is kind of a win-win.
>>
Perhaps unfortunately, given how many of them are young I suspect that statement might not be true :(
Apparently we need to get to around 70% vaccinated (with a working vaccine) for the program to be effective. Latest estimates that I’ve heard bandied around are that they’ll get to 50% reasonably quickly (end H1 2021), though obviously that’s only partly down to people not wanting to be vaccinated because simple logistics of getting people to appointments, availability of vaccine and capacity all impact the rate at which it’s rolled out.
On the plus side, round here large numbers of medically trained furloughed or redundant airline cabin crew (from LHR a d LGW) are being recruited to help administer the vaccine. I’m not sure whether or not to be reassured by that or not... ;)
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Once you've done a few cant be too difficult :)
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>> >>none of the vaccines is claiming that they reduce the likelihood of transmission
>>
>> Certainly the anti-vax folk are saying that but it's ridiculous to think that vaccination won't
>> reduce infectiousness. If you don't have the disease you won't be coughing as much virus
>> around for a start, even if you had virus on board and without considering the
>> actual viral load.
>>
Oh I agree its likely to help. But it’s disingenuous to dismiss it as an anti-vax statement, because it’s not proven or even claimed by the manufacturers yet. And it’s important because asymptomatic carriers of the virus are quite capable of spreading it widely, and are probably spreading it to more people in absolute terms since estimates are that 80% of carriers are asymptomatic. You don’t need to cough to spread it...breathing normally will do that, with the risk being higher in confined spaces and over extended periods of time. Super-spreaders can be asymptomatic. So if we want to get rid of social distancing it has to be able to prevent transmission as well.
That testing, which is of course now happening, is therefore important. And while it’s likely to be the case that it helps prevent transmission it’s not a certainty with the Pfizer vaccine, which uses different technology to most vaccines. It wouldn’t stop me taking if I’m offered it, and I expect by the time I am they’ll have the results. The AstraZeneca one and others using that approach seems more certain to prevent transmission, because other vaccines made that way do. They’ll also be a lot cheaper, which is another reason I think that’s what’ll be in the armoury by the time I make it to the top of the list!
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Recent outbreak in one workplace - everyone tested, 10 positive, 1 of whom hospitalised (but recovered ok), 5 of whom no symptoms at all.
No idea if 80% is a realistic proportion of symptom-free carriers but it is certainly a reasonable number.
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Just as an adjunct to this, it appears the Australians are also not yet persuaded that the vaccine prevents transmission, and so having had the vaccine won’t necessarily exempt returning citizens from having to quarantine in state facilities. Not helped of course that, at the moment, those that are being vaccinated aren’t being routinely issued with any record of the vaccination.
tinyurl.com/ydydcl5n
“Prof Kelly said Aussies in the US or UK that manage to get vaccinated against coronavirus may still have to quarantine when they come home. This is because clinical trials are yet to provide any evidence the vaccination stops transmission of coronavirus. "At the moment, unfortunately, the vaccines that we know most about don't appear to demonstrate any protection from transmission of the virus," he said. "They are very effective at stopping disease from the virus in an individual person, but it may well be that that transmission might continue. "So we need to really think that through very carefully. But certainly, it will have some protection and we will look at that amongst many other things over the coming month or so. And give strong and clear advice"
Worth noting also that BA have now cancelled the BA15/16 to Sydney until November 2021, and I wouldn’t be surprised, given the yields on that ultra long route, if it doesn’t come back for a very long time. So my bargain (£750 and 143k avios) flight in F to Australia that I picked up in the BA sale earlier in the year looks like being cancelled soon!
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>> Vaccines should be voluntary.
>>
>> I won't be taken anything yet my decision.
>>
>> We take Vit D everyday eat good food.
No problem your choice. You should also be refused treatment by the NHS for anything you catch you could have been vaccinated against.
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What about Brits living abroad? Thinking about our resident, e-scooter riding hooligan. How are they vaccinated. I've heard one embassy has been inundated with calls asking when they can come in and get it.
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>>What about Brits living abroad? Thinking about our resident, e-scooter riding hooligan
If you're *living* abroad then your health care arrangments are all part and parcel of you residency. Pretty much you count as a local and have to show your residency permit when attending.
If you're only staying temporarily abroad or you're illegal then I don't know.
p.s. pfffttt.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 13 Dec 20 at 22:46
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I don't understand why we need to achieve herd immunity at ~70% vaccinated.
The 60+ and exremely vulnerable group are ~ 20-25% of the population. As this group are vaccinated the risk to the NHS becomes low.
If this group are vaccinated by March/April next year, the chance of any mandatory restrictions being enforcable is close to zero. For economic and social reasons they would simply be ignored.
The vaccine rollout to other groups may continue over the summer.
Eradicating the virus completely may take decades given that vaccines will be voluntary in this country, and many overseas nations may never have an effective vaccination programme.
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It is highly desirable that a high vaccination rate is achieved because:
The vaccine like all vaccines is not 100€% effective
For some groups of people it may be less effective or not at all e.g the elderly
Some people e.g. those with deficient immune systems are unable to be vaccinated
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No thanks Norwich.
A vaccine based on a test never designed for mass testing and many false positives.
Have a listen to Dr Vernon Coleman on brandnewtube.
He has forgotten more about medicine what you and me will ever know..
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From Wikipedia...
"Vernon Coleman (born 18 May 1946) is an English blogger, novelist, self-published author and conspiracy theorist "
He is also the man who repeatedly claimed and wrote that AIDS is a hoax perpetrated upon heterosexual people.
He is an anti-vaxxer who states that the government is “openly employing military psychological warfare experts to terrify and mislead the population with brainwashing techniques”.
He also states that "billionaires such as Bill Gates are behind the COVID hoax and states the world is overpopulated and needs to be cut by around 90%."
In short, the man is lowlife scum who should do us all a favour and put effort into proving his statements about COVID-19 and AIDS by putting himself repeatedly in harms way until he is dead.
And if you are thick enough to believe such a deluded idiot, and simple enough to pass on his dross, then you should definitely join his research team.
Also this forum would benefit if you would pss off and take your stupid and dangerous beliefs with you.
I repeat, I really hope that you are in a more vulnerable group than what you realise. At least there would be one way what you could contribute to society.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 15 Dec 20 at 20:47
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No FM2R,
I live in Giggleswick but that retort made me giggle more than I have done in a long time.
????????
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Well FFS. I don't know which dick pointed him in our direction just after our last tirade against conspiracy theory idiots, but thanks for nothing.
I genuinely find it concerning that people so delusional live in our world. And some of them have children. I shudder to think. It ought to come under child abuse.
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There is nothing more you could of said there.
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>> There is nothing more you could of said there.
>>
...you could of said, "is there a vaccine against "blue?""....
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Tue 15 Dec 20 at 22:05
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Smurf, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Miss Z has just come home from a 14 hour shift at the local general hospital.
There are 79 COVID cases there. The hospital has about 500 beds and 20 intensive care beds. All are used. There is no spare capacity.
Elective surgery has been suspended. A&E cases are being transferred to hospitals further afield but the worry is that the new spread will overwhelm them as well.
During the first wave she worked in ITU and witnessed so many deaths in otherwise healthy people that it thoroughly upset and exhausted her and her colleagues.
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Iam certaintly not ashamed taken a vaccine I don't trust zippy.
You have 79 virus cases and how old are these people and what underlying problems do they have?
How many people die every year of the flu what has happened to these figures.
Many people are on waiting list for surgery and never be seen to the way this is going on.
Ashamed? More ashamed of politicians who shut down a soceity and cause more harm than good.
We now live in the age of fear.My daughter works many hrs in care your misses isn't the only one.
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Christ, you have a daughter? I pity the poor child. Rock and a hard place. Realises her Father is a fool or accepts being mislead.
I am surprised you understand shame. Somehow I thought you were beyond it.
Are you going to hand round here polluting the atmosphere, or will you get bored and pss off soon?
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Had my 1st vaccine yesterday.
Waiting for my superpowers to develop now....
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Should we call you Doctor Strange or RoboDoc?
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...just don't make him angry.....
;-)
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We should thank Smurf for his selfless devotion to the rest of humanity. By denying himself a vaccine he is allowing others to be vaccinated earlier.
I may think him daft - but it is he who will bear the consequences if he later finds his generosity to be misplaced. It may be as yet unproven that the vaccine prevents onwards transmission, but I understand that most existing vaccines do.
I would have the vaccine without hesitation - but I am 60+ with a few other problems. The risk profile may change if you are 25, fit and healthy.
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>> By denying himself a vaccine he is allowing others to be vaccinated earlier.
If he were denying himself I think he should be congratulated for his selfless acts. But he is peddling ridiculous s***e which is trapping the unwary into ignorance and danger.
Imagine, for example, the mess he might be getting his daughter into.
>> it is he who will bear the consequences
Or his daughter. Or other idiots in his little conspiracy clan. And I rather suspect that we may know one or two of those, though they'd be no great loss.
Imagine being proud of ignorance and delusion. It is a mindset quite beyond my understanding.
I think promoting the stuff he does he would probably be blocked on Facebook and probably hidden with a warning on Twitter. One would have hoped that this place would have a similar garbage disposal policy.
I really think he needs to fling himself into proving his hero's statements that AIDS is a hoax for heterosexual men and COVID-18 isn't real.
Worse case, he dies. Win - win really.
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I understand people being concerned about vaccine safety. The story that it usually takes years to get approval that has happened in weeks does suggest the question as to why, if it is completely safe, it isn't usually done a bit more quickly.
I'm not worried enough about the vaccine myself to refuse it because I don't expect anything to be 100% risk-free, and because it still seems likely that the risk (which is probably not as well quantified as would be the case with a longer testing phase) is very low and acceptable.
More importantly, what we do know with reasonable certainty of the risk from COVID to the individual, and to society, is that it is significantly greater without the vaccine.
I've just been listening to this chap on the radio. He has survived COVID but has ruined kidneys and amputations to deal with.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55332206
He has been terribly unlucky, and the vast majority infected will not suffer anything like these consequences, but there are plenty of cases of possibly permanent effects on the respiratory and cardiovascular system, and deaths on a scale of 10^4 so far - does anyone really think that the vaccine could be anywhere near as dangerous as that?
Humans aren't evolved to make probability judgements like this qualitatively. If they were, none of them would buy a lottery ticket in the hope of winning the jackpot or worry unduly about vaccination. Anaphylaxis (for example) caused by vaccine is around a 1 in 1 million risk so probably at least 10 times more likely than a jackpot win with one ticket. Still very unlikely.
The case is less clear for vaccinating young children, whose mortality risk from COVID is also around 1 in 1 million, about the same as a severe adverse vaccine reaction. For that and other reasons there are as I understand it no plans yet to vaccinate under-16's.
I'm not actually very worried about catching COVID myself, any more than I was about the risks of having an angiogram (risk of serious complications somewhere between 1:100 and 1:1000). But I'm not worried about the vaccine either, and I think the right course is to have it. Vaccines have done pretty well for me so far.
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>> I understand people being concerned about vaccine safety. The story that it usually takes years
>> to get approval that has happened in weeks does suggest the question as to why,
>> if it is completely safe, it isn't usually done a bit more quickly.
>>
>>
Because the massive amounts of money spent on developing a Covid vaccine and the number of labs who dropped everything else to work on one would not be affordable or practical for every known disease. Research findings that normally sat in somebody's in tray for a few months till they had the time to look at them were attended to straight away.
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>>Because the massive amounts of money spent on developing a Covid vaccine and the number of labs who dropped everything else to work on one
Well, quite. But if you were looking for justification for an anti-vaccine stance, you'd still say the short cut increased the risk. And you'd be (a bit) right.
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>>
>> Had my 1st vaccine yesterday.
>>
>> Waiting for my superpowers to develop now....
>>
>>
A colleague in Glasgow told me he didn't care if the vaccine gave him a third leg.
It'll help him get ta the pub quicker!
:-)
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>> A colleague in Glasgow told me he didn't care if the vaccine gave him a third leg
My nickname is already "Tripod" and it's not because I have an interest in photography...
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>> >> A colleague in Glasgow told me he didn't care if the vaccine gave him
>> a third leg
>>
>> My nickname is already "Tripod" and it's not because I have an interest in photography...
>>
'Cause your left leg and right leg are really short?
:-)
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Imagine having 3cm long legs. A big sacrifice just to get a nickname you like.
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Thanks guys
Was actually jokingly referred to as 'Tripod' for a while after a workmate overheard me asking my dad on the phone "how's Tripod?" referring to his 3-legged cat.
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>> Had my 1st vaccine yesterday.
I'm green with envy, no, hang on, you're the one that had the jab.
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Just seen a report on the BBC from France, a survey was carried out and 50% said they wouldn't have any vaccine. That's a lot more than I thought. Any ex pats over there?
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I'm looking after ill people, in contact with "the shielded", and have a wife in remission from leukaemia.
I'll take the 'risk' of vaccination.
140,000 given in first week and couple of significant allergic responses in people already carrying adrenaline pens for other allergies.
Not being vaccinated is as sensible as not wearing a mask or washing your hands, voting for Brexit, enjoying tobacco, hooking up with strangers in public toilets, etc etc
And I can pick up Radio Luxembourg with my left arm now thanks to the microchip.
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>> I'm looking after ill people, in contact with "the shielded", and have a wife in
>> remission from leukaemia.
>>
>> I'll take the 'risk' of vaccination.
>>
>> 140,000 given in first week and couple of significant allergic responses in people already carrying
>> adrenaline pens for other allergies.
>>
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Not many people want to take the vaccine, like most medicines or jab, they are unpleasant. But you do, for your health and the health of your loved ones.
The allergic reaction is worrying me a bit, having an undiagnosed reaction to something a few years ago which saw me ending up in hospital, I now carry an Epipen (generic version).
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>> I have a wife in remission from leukaemia.
I know someone in remission from lymphoma. We're unable to find out the efficacy and risks of the vaccine on people with blood cancer, other than "it wasn't trialled on those cases".
Do you have any info?
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Online vaccination calculator www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-uk
With no known underlying health conditions and not having a priority job I will apparently have between 10 and 12 million people ahead of me in the queue and should get my first vaccination on 24th Feb.
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As I suspected, I’ll be waiting a while. Between 27 million and 39 million people ahead of me. But hopefully by September ;)
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18-20 million ahead of me; April or May. Other than being 60+ I've no characteristics that advance me up the list.
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21.12.20 to 17.01.21
Could be next Monday? Anyone care to have a small wager with me that it won't be next Monday?
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I ended with an estimate of late September.
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...I suspect the accuracy of the estimates are very dependent on whether the vaccine or the virus gets to all of the vulnerable tranche first. The queue could be shortening!
;-)
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I just looked at the calculator again and my date has slipped a bit, I think it was early Feb and now mid March. Maybe mobilisation has taking longer than they thought it might (and I realise the calculator isn't official).
I have 6 weeks in Portugal booked from 1 March, booked yonks ago. I doubt I'll be doing it anyway but I suppose I could ask to be bumped up, though it's not really a very good reason and they are probably being swamped with requests.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 28 Dec 20 at 11:35
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>>Do you have any info?
No. It's not a live vaccine, so the main risk is it may not provide adequate immunity.
On the other hand it may. Interestingly those in the minority who manage to catch CV after being immunised appear to have a less crappy time with the illness.
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My 80 year old neighbours had theirs today. They may have got in a bit early as they were accompnianing a 90 year old relative
Last edited by: maltrap on Thu 17 Dec 20 at 16:38
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I was on schedule for January, but my bladder tumours have returned, so not sure how that will mix with more BCG and Chemo.
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Sorry to hear that Z...hopefully they’ll have a plan that gets you as well as possible quickly.
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>> Sorry to hear that Z...hopefully they’ll have a plan that gets you as well as
>> possible quickly.
Its unlikely to be fatal in the medium term, but the long stop "well" plan is a bit drastic and life changing. And not temporary this time.
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Sorry about that Zero, I trust and hope it goes as well as it can.
Is it too soon to take the pss?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 17 Dec 20 at 21:31
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>> Sorry about that Zero, I trust and hope it goes as well as it can.
>>
>> Is it too soon to take the pss?
>>
I don't think so no, Zero can I have your motor if it all goes pete tong?
I'll give the motor a good thrashing from time to time. I promise.
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Thoughts with you and hopes for a speedy recovery Zero!
Last edited by: zippy on Thu 17 Dec 20 at 21:56
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As above Z. My best wishes.
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>> I'll give the motor a good thrashing from time to time. I promise.
Watch those speed cameras
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>> Sorry about that Zero, I trust and hope it goes as well as it can.
>>
>> Is it too soon to take the pss?
Yes most definitely. You are suffering from premature extrapolation.
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>>
>> Its unlikely to be fatal in the medium term, but the long stop "well" plan
>> is a bit drastic and life changing. And not temporary this time.
>>
What I can say about drastic, life changing and potentially permanent medical intervention is only based on observing how Andy dealt with over 10 years of dialysis and how other renal patients did. It either becomes your life, or it enables your life. To this day I remain in awe of the courage, strength, determination and sheer b***** mindedness it took to live the life he wanted to live, and I rather suspect you’d take the same approach...
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>> What I can say about drastic, life changing and potentially permanent medical intervention is only
>> based on observing how Andy dealt with over 10 years of dialysis and how other
>> renal patients did. It either becomes your life, or it enables your life. To this
>> day I remain in awe of the courage, strength, determination and sheer b***** mindedness it
>> took to live the life he wanted to live, and I rather suspect you’d take
>> the same approach...
My medical path is, Another 6 weeks of BCG, then a check. If that fails (and it just has, so its likely to again) then its Hyperthermic Mitomycin C (heating up the inside of the bladder and then washing it with hot Mitomycin (chemo)) at St Georges, then a check. If that fails its a Cystectomy.
Based on my previous experience of an Ileostomy, I know a Urostomy is manageable, and how to deal with it, albeit knowing this time permanent.
The tough part with cancer I have just discovered - finding you have it, knowing its there, getting rid, being told its gone, is a journey I guess most of us have prepared for. I think I was,
But
Getting it, knowing its there, getting rid of it, and then finding out its back straight away, means at this moment in time, right now, you know its growing again and if left unchecked it will kill ya. There is nothing you can do about it, just wait for the next steps in the process.
Mentally that's quite freaky.
As far as Andy and dialysis goes, Nah I couldn't cope with that at all. Thats far too life invasive
Still I am in awe of Tracey Emin. She has just had her bladder, womb, ovaries removed and her fanny stitched shut. Her reaction? "thank god they saved my clitoris".
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My neighbour and friend had a cystectomy and a neo bladder reconstruction five years ago. He is 77 in January and is he’s leading a normal active life, still driving and working in his garden most days.
Anyway all the best
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>> My neighbour and friend had a cystectomy and a neo bladder reconstruction five years ago.
>> He is 77 in January and is he’s leading a normal active life, still driving
>> and working in his garden most days.
>>
>> Anyway all the best
Neo bladder is a no go, as is a urinary diversion because of the previous colorectal surgery. If I need a cystectomy, a urostomy will be the outcome.
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I think you should give Zippy your car just so we can read about the Rodney King outcome.
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Enjoy it while you can.
Now, about the BMW....
If it lives in a hot dry country, like Chile say, it'd never have to worry about rust, and not even rain that often.
You owe it to the car and you're fortunate that I'm here to help.
I'll even chip in on the shipping costs.
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Your positive attitude will see you through this, Zero.
All the very best.
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Keep on fighting, Z, the forum wouldn't be the same without you.
.....on second thoughts...........
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All the best - I still find the night before the next consultant visit (virtual or otherwise) the most stressful.
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Whats almost comically laughable about this whole thing is that you actually get to see your enemy, and it's an almost alien looking being.
The camera goes in and you see the inside of your bladder and you see the tumour at exactly the first time your consultant does in real time. You know what it is because you have seen them before.
So the real stressful part is going to be the Uroscopy, after the next round of BCG. That moment the camera squeezes past your prostate I'll not be breathing.
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Ooops. A Belgian politician tweeted the cost of the different vaccines (subsequently deleted).
Price per dose.
AZ 1,78€
J&J $8.50
Sanofi/GSK 7,56€
BioNTech/Pfizer 12,00€
Curevac 10,00€
Moderna $18.00
(Nicked from Guido Fawkes website.)
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ISTR AZ were doing it at cost for the duration of the pandemic, could be wrong. (AZ being the Oxford one, which has gone quiet again...)
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 18 Dec 20 at 22:15
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To vaccinate the 60m population of the UK with 2 doses of the Biontech vaccine at $12 a shot would be £1.2bn.
Peanuts - the economy is leaking £280bn this year on covid measures.
Even adding the cost of nurses, doctors etc etc giving the virus, the cost is plain trivial. The real important thing, as Boris would no doubt attest, is GET IT DONE!!
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Where's the jolly jape in that when you can keep giving contracts to your pals?
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>> (Nicked from Guido Fawkes website.)
>>
Something else that appeared on Guido Fawkes website, apparently.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55364465
I am sure there is a delicious irony there, if I could only think what it was.
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This tickled me. Particularly the 'Next slide please' mug :)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55333205
Seems Chris Witty has become a bit of an icon. What a brilliant business idea. Brit humour.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 19 Dec 20 at 11:27
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>> www.rfi.fr/en/france/20201204-french-opposition-to-covid-19-vaccine-grows-as-government-announces-campaign-health-medicine-emmanuel-macron-conspiracy
>>
>>
>> Seems scepticism is growing in France over the vaccine.
>>
I think surveys about getting the vaccine as about as reliable as surveys on who would vote for Trump, and for similar reasons.
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True, you don't know until they are called forward for it.
I did see this, a bit more background on why the French are sceptical about vaccinations.
www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/french-connections/20201217-why-are-the-french-so-sceptical-about-vaccines
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 24 Dec 20 at 10:26
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>> www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/french-connections/20201217-why-are-the-french-so-sceptical-about-vaccines
For a country that eats animal bowel full of poo, snails, leg of frog, and stuffs its geese so they bursts and eat the mashed liver, they seem very fussy about medicine.
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The French only believe in treatments they push up their bottoms. (even paracetemol)
8o)
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>>The French only believe in treatments they push up their bottoms
Some folk take their coffee up the Khyber too: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_enema
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>> From Starbutts?
>>
...that would explain why somebody wrote "a$$hole" on his cup when he ordered.....
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www.france24.com/en/france/20201230-france-criticised-for-slow-start-to-covid-19-vaccinations
Seems it's been a struggle to get started in France.
'But in the first three days of the campaign less than 100 people have been given the jab -- compared to 42,000 so far in Germany '
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>> 'But in the first three days of the campaign less than 100 people have been
>> given the jab -- compared to 42,000 so far in Germany '
If it's the Pfizer jab, then they must have thrown away over 900 (more if it's from more than one batch). I guess the cheese eating, surrender monkeys get all they deserve!
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Half a million people vaccinated in a week. A statement that half the population needs to be vaccinated. So that's 35 weeks at the current rate. (22nd August).
However, everybody seems of the opinion that the vaccination rate is likely to significantly increase. Also, it is believed likely that the vaccine will lower transmission rates and given that the vulnerable are being vaccinated first, then one would expect fatality and hospitalisation rates to fall also, both much earlier.
metro.co.uk/2020/12/21/more-than-half-a-million-people-in-the-uk-have-now-had-covid-vaccine-13788208/
I have hope for impact from the vaccinations.
As for the rest, I've had enough of the doom and gloom. I'm going with Doris Day.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 22 Dec 20 at 14:11
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I've been vaccinated and yet have have clinical work colleagues of the younger age group who are very skeptical of the vaccine.. the coffee room chat is sometimes unbearable.
The actually vaccination process with the associated paper-work, form filling and health checks/warnings take some time per person so I can see why it could take several months to vaccinated a good few people
You need it be like you see on the old war films where the soldiers all line up and they go along with an automatic injection gun! (just kidding).
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There is a yank, who for once makes some sense, He reckons we only need to vaccinate 20/30% of the population to achieve herd immunity. Assumption being 30 - 40% have caught it, will get it shortly and are now/ will be immune
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Front line NHS daughter is having her first jab tomorrow at a hospital (I think in separate single-purpose facility).
I understand once they get the Oxford one (with it's more easily met storage requirements) it is likely to be done in places like football grounds where they have parking and can control the queues etc.
Daughter says they were advertising in her area (B'ham) for people to work on vaccinating - especially the "admin" bits like reception etc . I think they are also training people other than nurses to give jabs. So vaccination rate should increase quite dramatically.
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>>You need it be like you see on the old war films where the soldiers all line up and they go along with an automatic injection gun! (just kidding).
It's not far off that in Chile except the line files past the nurse(s).
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Has the vaccination program started in Chile yet?
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 23 Dec 20 at 02:36
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>> Has the vaccination program started in Chile yet?
No, it's all very strange.
Chile has suddenly gone back into lockdown, the curfew is being set at 10pm and travel outside your home city is not permitted.
It's not clear why since the figures have not deteriorated particularly, though this announcement coincided with them removing the official daily reports from the Govt website.. I think it can only be one of two things; They're either concerned about a flare up, which seems unlikely since it didn't happen on the independence holidays which are larger, or they've heard some talk about riots and are using this to head them off at the pass.
Further, they have made vague statements about waiting to see how the vaccine progresses in other countries before moving forward themselves. There are rumours that they may wait until February.
I was at a dinner last night with people who should have known the answers, and they didn't. It's most peculiar.
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Do you know if they've got the vaccine in the country yet?
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There are three trials running and they certainly placed pre orders but I don't know what has or has not arrived.
It may be that the Third World infrastructure, the summer (mid 30s most days), and the storage requirements of the vaccine are giving them problems.
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I see some cases have been found in some Chilean research station in Antarctica and they've been taken to Chile.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-55410065
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Thanks for that, I think I saw that on Fr24.
I see a similarly high number saying they won't bother.
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>>I see a similarly high number saying they won't bother.
There are many here who believe that the virus is simply an invention of the Government to suppress the poor. Daft, the Government here don't even really know that the poor exist and certainly doesn't believe that they have any relevance.
Some of the Conspiracy Theories here would make a Trump supporting red neck cry.
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Everyday is a new conspiracy (not heard that one before)
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>> As for the rest, I've had enough of the doom and gloom. I'm going with
>> Doris Day.
Trust you to go with the nymphomaniac crazy cat lady.
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>> Trust you to go with the nymphomaniac crazy cat lady.
My kind of girl.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 23 Dec 20 at 02:34
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Doris Day ? Is that rhyming slang ? Didn’t she do a Kermit last year ?
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I've always been straight out the door after my flu jabs, this year was my fourth.
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First ever flu jab last week.
They took my blood pressure as I have not had it taken at my surgery for five years. Then gave me the jab, I put my shirt back on, said a few seasonal pleasantries and went on my way. Five minutes inside at most?
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>> Doris Day ? Is that rhyming slang ? Didn’t she do a Kermit last year
>> ?
>>
Que será será.
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University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust staff including the executive team were offered the jab when booked patients did not turn up as they "did not want to waste the vaccine"
Surely it should have been offered to frontline workers first.
Another case of the management putting themselves in front of the ones that should be first.
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>> University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust staff including the executive team were offered the jab
>> when booked patients did not turn up as they "did not want to waste the
>> vaccine"
>> Surely it should have been offered to frontline workers first.
>> Another case of the management putting themselves in front of the ones that should be
>> first.
As it's clearly a very short notice opportunity, the front line workers are probably very busy doing vital stuff. As for the executive team.............
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Whilst there are clear temperature related issue with the Biontech vaccine, assuming the Astra Zeneca one is approved I don't understand what the problem is.
The target high risk groups are pretty much the same as are advised to have a flu vaccine each year. This is done in most surgeries over a limited number of sessions where the time allowed per jab is 1 or 2 minutes. GP practices may need some extra funding to cover the costs.
The main at risk groups number about 15m - less than 25% of the population. As these are vaccinated, the pressure on the NHS become much smaller. It may then still be sensible to do "hands, face, space" but there will be limited need for social and business restrictions.
Those who don't want a vaccine can take responsibility for their own stupidity.
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>> The target high risk groups are pretty much the same as are advised to have
>> a flu vaccine each year. This is done in most surgeries over a limited number
>> of sessions where the time allowed per jab is 1 or 2 minutes. GP practices
>> may need some extra funding to cover the costs.
I believe the Covid vaccination may take longer than flu. There's a requirement to wait 15-20 minutes after the jab in case of allergic reaction.
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>>
>> I believe the Covid vaccination may take longer than flu. There's a requirement to wait
>> 15-20 minutes after the jab in case of allergic reaction.
>>
I believe the standard advice for vaccinations such as the flu jab are also to allow for 15 minutes observation. I'm not sure whether this is widely observed (sic) since this is the first year I've actually taken the same, and the two of us were through the process and out on the street in little more than 30 seconds! (Patently, times ain't normal, though).
I've also seen references in various medical journals indicating that the observation time post a Covid vaccination will be (very) curtailed.
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Tesco made me hang around for 5 mins after the flu jab this year.
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>> Tesco made me hang around for 5 mins after the flu jab this year.
>>
At Boots I was in and out within a minute, which is annoying because the pharmacist was a cracker!
;-)
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I'm 77, so I must have had 12 flu jabs, all at my local surgery. I've never been asked to remain for observation even briefly.
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I genuinely read that as:
"The Oxford vaccine will be rolled out from Jan 4 across the counter....."
...in the glimpse I got before the intrusive privacy banner popped up.
Usual endless queue at the pharmacy on Monday, then.....
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I'll have a pint of whatever he's drinking, please.
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p.s. privacy banner? Something from The Telegraph?
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...yup.
Cookies and Privacy settings.
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In many of the surveys that were done towards the end of November up to 50% of people were saying that they would not have the vaccination. It would appear that resistance is rapidly decreasing now that vaccination is an actual option. Spain, for example, has seen the figures more than halve.
Inevitably sooner or later someone who has been vaccinated will catch COVID-19 and I wonder about the effect. No doubt many on the internet will panic not understanding what less than 100% effective actually means, any more than their parents understood a similar statistic about condoms..
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I think the catholic church in Spain frowns upon the use of condoms? Certainly did in their parents time anyway, Prexit maybe?
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>> I think the catholic church in Spain frowns upon the use of condoms?
As with so many other things, the Catholic Church ends up tying itself in knots trying to control everybody but still pretend it's being reasonable.
As I understand it the last note on this subject was that condom use for homosexuals was fine because that was about health not about contraception, but for heterosexuals it was about contraception so they should practice abstinence instead.
So, if you're gay then you can bang anything that moves safely and with the Pope's blessing, but if you're straight then you have to tie a knot in it.
And people say the Catholic Church is a ridiculous and archaic organisation ......
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>> I think the catholic church in Spain frowns upon the use of condoms? Certainly did
>> in their parents time anyway, Prexit maybe?
>>
In the eighties a cousin from Ireland was working over here for a spell and I went to Paddington station with him to see him off for his Christmas trip home. We went into the gents and he bought a few packs of condoms from the vending machine and hid them in the bottom of his suitcase because they were still banned in Ireland.
As was the News of The World and The Life of Brian, and most Irish residents had never heard of Dave Allen who was strictly off limits in Catholic dominated Ireland.
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On the subject of Spain, their Health Minister, Salvadopr Illa said
"Según ha precisado, se llevará a cabo "un registro", que además será compartido "con otros socios europeos" -, con "aquellas personas que se les ha ofrecido y simplemente han rechazado" la vacunación, "como se hace con otros tratamientos"."
Essentially, the vaccination is voluntary not compulsory but a registry will be kept of those who refuse the vaccine and that will be shared with other EU Countries.
Assuming they stand by that, and no doubt it will be challenged, that should ensure that the selfish gits worry about facing restrictions in the future.
The link is top an article in La Sexta and thus in Spanish.
www.lasexta.com/programas/al-rojo-vivo/entrevistas/illa-confirma-que-se-citara-a-la-gente-para-vacunarse-y-se-hara-un-registro-de-las-personas-que-lo-rechacen_202012285fe9d9c2bc50ef000101275c.html
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www.bbc.com/news/health-55280671
The oxford/az vaccine approved for use.
'The priority should be to give as many people in at-risk groups their first dose, rather than providing the required two doses in as short a time as possible'
A change in policy I believe.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 30 Dec 20 at 07:47
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Good news and the policy seems sensible, especially in the light of the new strain(s) and the inability or unwillingness of some of the population to follow simple requirements.
I'm really hoping this is light at the end of the tunnel, albeit it's a long way off - cos it's the whole world which needs to be rid of it before we go back to "normal" again, and that's quite a big ask.
I like the Spanish idea of recording details of refuseniks, just as I have no problem with the concept of them losing some freedoms as a result. Not in a spiteful way but why oughtn't businesses and people be able to discriminate against them as it's for the general good and well-being of everybody. We oughtn't pussyfoot around when it's potentially a matter of life and death. Just ban them from flights, cinemas, concerts, football games etc etc etc. By choosing to not have the vaccine they would still not be as badly off as some poor people with physical disabilities which prevent them from doing such things, and if they knew up front what the impact would be on their lives then maybe they would think again about whether their reasons for refusing really stack up.
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The whole world will not be free of covid - certainly not for several years, possibly never.
This does not mean an indefinite delay to normality - many viruses kill thousands in the UK and millions worldwide each year. - eg: flu, measles, pneumonia.
Getting back to normality merely means reducing the consequences of the virus to a level at which it becomes an unremarkable risk - perhaps within the next three to six months.
The emotional response to somehow punish those who decide not to vaccinate is pointless. It is they who will mainly suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.
Setting up a bureaucracy to manage punishment, mandating medics not to treat those who have refused a vaccine, and/or pursuing some sort of legal remedy and enforcing fines and prison sentences for non-compliancee is all fantasy land.
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Yeah well that wasn't what I was thinking. I didn't mention not treating them in hospital (though there have often been threats made AND carried out to not treat smokers and the obese) nor did I mention punishments and prison.
However if you make certain life choices then you ought to be prepared to live with the consequences, which might in this case include not being able to do the things I previously mentioned, and more.
Nothing emotional about it really - just require evidence of a vaccination prior to being able to do certain things. Responsible people would normally do as much when travelling to, say, parts of Africa where cholera is rife. You have to have a driving licence before driving a car. What is the difference really?
Doesn't strike me as being a big deal really. I'm sure that as you have a jab you're details would be entered into a database.
Even if some bureaucracy was required the overheads would be considerably lower than the potential disaster it might help avert.
We oughtn't pussyfoot around wringing our hands over upsetting one or two. JDI.
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Wholeheartedly agree with that one.
We've become a nation of pandering to the shouty Liberals with their 'rights'. Thats why we are in this current state. Sometimes you just need to get a solid grip of things.
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UK Population' Rights come with responsibilities,
Forgotten by roughly 25% of the population who think it does not apply to them.
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>> We've become a nation of pandering to the shouty Liberals with their 'rights'. Thats why
>> we are in this current state. Sometimes you just need to get a solid grip
>> of things.
Not forgetting the shouty non-liberals, who sometimes call themselves libertarians and are at least as likely to be anti-vax.
I often agree with you FC but I think you have the wrong end of the telescope to your eye there.
Funnily enough I also agree with Smokie. But I don't think it will happen, and it will be the right wing nutters who will shout loudest. Although Farage has said he is pro-vaccine, his Reform party supporters seem very anti.
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I think if you have the word "wing" in your political beliefs, whichever wing it is, you are likely to be fundamentally wrong about everything.
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>> I think if you have the word "wing" in your political beliefs, whichever wing it
>> is, you are likely to be fundamentally wrong about everything.
Can you mean me? Just shorthand.
I don't care which wing I'm on from time to time, or think about it.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 30 Dec 20 at 15:15
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>>Can you mean me?
No, I certainly didn't. Never though of you as a wing sort of person.
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>> I think if you have the word "wing" in your political beliefs, whichever wing it
>> is, you are likely to be fundamentally wrong about everything.
Left/Right, the wing bit is pretty much otiose, is surely just standard terminology for politics.
We may use it to define our own views or those of others.
I happily identify as left (wing).
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>>
>> I happily identify as left (wing).
>>
I happily identify simply as right..... (every time!)
;-)
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>>I happily identify simply as right..... (every time!)
Common sense should tell you that since you sometimes, inexplicably and irrationally, disagree with me then you cannot be right every time.
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>I happily identify simply as right..... (every time!)
Could you aks Mrs TnE to post a confirmation that she gave you permission to make that claim?
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She just says something, and I go "Right!"
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>>Left/Right, the wing bit is pretty much otiose
I had to Google that. For anyone else...
adjective: otiose
1. serving no practical purpose or result.
"there were occasions when I felt my efforts were rather otiose"
2. archaic
indolent or idle.
>>I happily identify as left (wing).
A fundemental difference between us indicative of party politics, which we both know I dislike.
As it happens I'd say you pretty obviously lean left, but I would not describe you as left wing.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 30 Dec 20 at 15:38
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Indolent, I love that word, I should use it more but I can't be bothered.
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I have teenage daughters who have teenage friends. It's a word that fits into my life often.
I always have the level of energy required to abuse indolent teenagers.
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>>
>> I happily identify as left (wing).
Maybe change your moniker to ‘number 11’ ?
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I think there is a dogma that comes with "**** wing" that prevents considering issues objectively and on their own merits.
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I'm more a holding midfielder than a winger.
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...your wife's got you down as a sweeper.....
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>> I think there is a dogma that comes with "**** wing" that prevents considering issues
>> objectively and on their own merits.
There can be a dogma but not necessarily. I was going to suggest the word paradigm but that's too rigid as well. I'm a creature of the left, albeit the mixed economy socialism advocated by Crosland et al, and regard that as a framework to consider matters of policy. It does not stop me considering views on their merits.
And if, on engaging that framework I come to a different view to you that doesn't make it wrong or my analysis faulty.
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>>And if, on engaging that framework I come to a different view to you that doesn't make it wrong or my analysis faulty.
Silly boy, of course it does.
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Email from chief executive of the Board today advising anyone whose second vaccine was due 5th Jan or beyond will now be re-dated to around 12wks after their first dose to get more people vaccinated with dose number 1.
This is certainly a Scotland-wide directive, and presumably will apply to England/rUK also
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SWMBO reported nurse daughter in Brum has been told she's unlikely to be getting the second dose at anticipated time.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 31 Dec 20 at 12:29
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www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9099049
Pfizer don’t guarantee effectiveness for 12 week gap between doses.
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I haven't heard anything yet... I did wonder about this as surely the vaccine was licenced and passed by the MHRA on the basis that the second dose was given within their specified time to give maximum effectiveness.
What case would a healthcare worker have if they became ill in the period that their second jab was delayed?
Unless of course Pfizer have the minimum and maximum allowances written in the data sheets.
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That is reassuring maybe they be happy with more than two jabs.That be the future then zippy jab after jab.
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Any chance you could translate that into English?
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>> Nothing emotional about it really - just require evidence of a vaccination prior to being
>> able to do certain things.
Sound easy until you try to implement it. There will be a significant number for whom the vaccine is contra-indicated; immuno deficiency is probably just one of them. Some categories of allergy will probably be another. What about people with a genuine and serious fear of needles or mental health issues; do we just tell them to man up?
Do you allow businesses to discriminate against those people?
Let's see what the real numbers are for refusal before we start trying to dream up methods of coercion and control.
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Then you'd get into who is entitled to know if you've had a jab or not and why, Caldicot principles I think it's called. Sounds like something you can chat about online, but doing it for real?
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>>Sound easy until you try to implement it
No, it actually is easy. Schools here have done it for years. I'm pretty sure my girls' school in the UK did it too.
>>What about people with a genuine and serious fear of needles or mental health issues; do we just tell them to man up?
We certainly don't ask anybody else to deal with their irrational fear either. They can live with the consequences and if that means they are, say, unable to fly then they'll have to work out just how genuine and serious their fear is.
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>> No, it actually is easy. Schools here have done it for years. I'm pretty sure
>> my girls' school in the UK did it too.
I suspect UK businesses and service providers may run into disability/reasonable adjustment issues if they're not live to the issues around people who are not vaccinated.
>> We certainly don't ask anybody else to deal with their irrational fear either. They can
>> live with the consequences and if that means they are, say, unable to fly then
>> they'll have to work out just how genuine and serious their fear is.
Whilst not denying the existence of fakers what seems irrational to you or me is utterly real for people with that fear.
So is mental health in all it's manifestations.
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They may well be genuine in their fear of needles. That doesn't mean that I should manage the consequences.
I am perfectly happy for airlines, for example, to block those who have refused a vaccination. Or theatres, or restaurants, or hospitals for that matter.
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>> They may well be genuine in their fear of needles. That doesn't mean that I
>> should manage the consequences.
If you're vaccinated and a relative handful of others are not what are the consequences you might need to manage?
>> I am perfectly happy for airlines, for example, to block those who have refused a
>> vaccination. Or theatres, or restaurants, or hospitals for that matter.
There's a number somewhere (85%?) that constitutes herd immunity. Even then, given that we don't know whether vaccination prevents spreading, I'm not clear what advantage accrues to theatres or restaurants that deny access to the unvaccinated.
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>>If you're vaccinated and a relative handful of others are not what are the consequences you might need to manage?
What about if it turns out that 10% cannot be vaccinated and 10% can.t be f. a***d?:
I expect them to do their part or deal with the consequences of not doing so. I do not believe that we should keep excusing the behaviour of lazy or ignorant idiots because it makes us feel like more woke people or as a way of signalling our own virtue. I detest that attitude in people, the desperate and fervent need to repeatedly signal how virtuous they are by excusing the behaviour of t***s.
Do your f. bit or suffer the consequences of not doing so. i.e. you don't get some advantage that someone else does. eg. air travel, theatres and hospital visiting.
>> I'm not clear what advantage accrues to theatres or restaurants that deny access to the unvaccinated.
Well I guess you'll either have to ponder it or forget it.
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The NHS is offering to maintain your health by vaccination. If you refuse that, then they have no obligation to treat you if you catch it. It really should be and could be that simple.
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>> The NHS is offering to maintain your health by vaccination. If you refuse that, then
>> they have no obligation to treat you if you catch it. It really should be
>> and could be that simple.
It's not that simple because there's a cohort for whom, for various reasons, vaccination is contra indicated or otherwise impossible.
Dealing with those is a different consideration from people who've swallowed a conspiracy.
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I don't think it will happen but compulsory vaccination should not be unthinkable. Around a third of European countries already make various childhood vaccinations compulsory, including France and Italy.
The cost of indulging ignorance and prejudice is unnecessary death and suffering to one degree or another.
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>>The cost of indulging ignorance and prejudice is unnecessary death and suffering to one degree or another.
Agreed. And to add selfishness, arrogance and t***ishness.
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Miss Z has just got home from a gruelling shift.
She reports that they have run out of capacity for any more sick patients to the extent that they can offer nothing but palliative care for some very ill young patients because they are overweight. She reports that it is very likely that several patients <35 years of age will not survive the next couple of days because there are no ventilators / ICU beds.
Perhaps a first dose of the vaccine is better than none in these circumstances?
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Missed the edit...
A&E was like a war zone.
General medicine was very quiet.
Some patients that she thinks should have been transferred to London for life saving surgery (who would have been transferred earlier in the year) were not and subsequently died.
Her comment was that it's a real "s*** show" and totally unfair, in that normally that would really do what ever they could to try to save a patient's life but at the moment there just are not the recourses to do so and so they just make them comfortable and move on to the next one.
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>>and totally unfair,
Perhaps yes, perhaps no.
It is a pity that there is no real way of knowing whether each patient is a reckless t*** or someone who did their best but caught it anyway.
I can't say I care much about the first group but my heart goes out to the second.
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>>Perhaps a first dose of the vaccine is better than none in these circumstances?
I don't know. But if there is some chance that the effects fade if the second dose isn't given in a period of time then it wouldn't be a smart approach.
You'd hope the decision makes would know what they are doing, but the last 6 months don't engender much in the way of confidence.
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And parties. I keep reading in my local papers about the police breaking up house parties, 30+ people in attendance. The householder/organiser ‘may’ face fines. Jeez. In my world every single person would be heavily fined, and securely confined somewhere until that fine had been paid.
Preferably shackled to railings as an example.
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>> In my world every single person would be securely confined somewhere, preferably shackled >>to railings as an example.
>>
You like a bit of that, do you?
only slightly edited.
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Talking of confinement, I recommend the film ‘10 Cloverfield Lane’.
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Coronvirus Vaccine - Rudedog
