Out rambling the hills today and talk turned to hybrids and specifically plug ins.
I can understand the benefits of lower BIK, and for those whose commute is sub 30 miles then they’re probably a good thing.
I’ve no idea how much a home charger costs to install ( please enlighten me) but a friend who paid top dollar for a Golf GTE two years ago has been very disappointed. On a reasonably open A road, he can’t get to the nearest large town (Skipton) a 30 mile return, on electric power alone. Then he’s lugging around batteries, and it’s even worse when he goes on regular long runs to the NE, with the majority of the journey on petrol power.
And it’s a tiny boot.
My pals neighbour recently bought a 330e Touring. It’s not a company vehicle. Cost a small fortune, £500+ annual VED the first five years, and a range of 35 miles on electric power alone. Gizmos allow you to input your journey details which ensures you empty the battery by journeys end, and there is lots of other clever stuff, but the hybrid thing just seems a very poor stop gap whilst EV’s continue to develop their range.
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Folk need to be clear what their usage pattern is.
If 5 mile commutes, school runs and shopping make up the normal usage, able to charge at home, only occasional (once every few months) longer journey then hybrid could make sense.
Frequent longer journeys beyond battery range - probably a waste of time.
Leaving aside the status, green and virtuous motives - a small hybrid is ~8-10p per mile on electric, and ~16-20p per mile on ICE. 5k pa on electric saving ~10p per mile - ~£500pa.
This may be ~10 year payback - hardly worth it if only keeping the car 3-5 years - but the trade in price will likely be better than pure ICE.
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Yes LL your mate clearly didn't do his research very well before buying did he?
A home EVSE is probably upwards of £500, twice that for the smarter ones. There was a grant towards them but that may have ended now (or reduced).
Mine was put in years ago for free under a government scheme - I didn't even own an EV then!! It did pack up but I found a company who basically replaced the innards for about £150 (with better equipment than the original had).
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 22 Jun 22 at 00:09
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I wouldn't mind a hybrid, as virtually all my journeys are local and well within the 30 mile range mentioned above.
However, I'm sure that using petrol power only a few times a year, would bring its own problems.
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We had a 225xe on lease for a couple of years - ~15 mile EV range suited wife's 12 mile daily commute.
Long trip average was 40-45mpg as a hybrid once the battery had used its juice (tho there was always a bottom buffer in reserve for acceleration).
It was effectively a 218i (136bhp) ICE FWD with 90bhp RWD electric motor so drove like a 225i AWD when required.
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Ideally suited for a short daily commute, or for those who for most of the time only drive locally.
Monday I had a 60 mile round trip to meet up for a walk, yesterday a 50 mile trip. So most of each journey would have been running on electric, unless ( I think) you need some sharp overtaking acceleration when the petrol engine springs to life. But I could be wrong.
In the meantime I’ll stick to the ICE. Preferably a flat 6 in my dreams.
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It’s difficult to see why any private individual would buy a plug in hybrid over an electric vehicle. If you drive mainly locally with only the occasional longer journey that can easily be managed by charging at a remote charger. OK there is a small time penalty but it’s not worth lugging a heavy petrol engine around for the odd time you wish to travel further afield just to “save” a few hours a year.
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>> It’s difficult to see why any private individual would buy a plug in hybrid over
>> an electric vehicle.
Its not at all difficult to see. There is NO Ev that does what I need. A Hybrid does.
> If you drive mainly locally with only the occasional longer journey
A lot of people dont. I dont.
>it's not worth lugging a heavy petrol engine around for the odd time you wish to travel further afield just to "save" a few hours a year.
Its amazing how selective people become with "facts."
Fact 1. A set of rechargeable batteries and motor weight more than an ICE with a full tank of gas. The full tank of gas goes down in weight as its used. I dont see the battery pack doing that, do you?
There are ONLY two reasons (no matter ow hard you try make them up to justify your EV choice)
1/ Environment
2/ Running costs*. (*That will be changed by taxation eventually)
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>>There are ONLY two reasons (no matter ow hard you try make them up to justify your EV choice)
>>1/ Environment
>>2/ Running costs*. (*That will be changed by taxation eventually)
3/ NVH and pleasing driving experience compared to equivalent ICE variants.
For towing a heavy 'van they're pants for range hence a very poor choice for Z.
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ICE will normally be the lightest vehicle. Proven but complex technology.
Hybrid based on same ICE with (say) 30 mile range will be heavier and have more performance if both motors can be used. Alternative is to combine electric with smaller ICE motor saving weight. Most complex solution.
Electric with (say) 250 mile range will be the heaviest by a few hundred kg due to battery weight. Still evolving but potentially the simplest technology.
As Lygonos says the reasons for buying and the future are clear.
2+ years ago purchasers of EV were early adopters taking a bit of a technological leap, over the next 5 years EV and hybrid will grow to capture 80%+ of sales, the remaining 20% will then be creating largely illusory arguments to continue buying ICE.
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Your driving needs would point to and ICE vehicle as best fulfilling your needs. I don’t think a plug in hybrid would be your ideal choice.
My point is that if you to go electric for whatever reason if you are a private’s buyer a plug in hybrid does not make a lot of sense. There is very little advantage. If you drive mainly short distances with e occasional longer trip a fully electric car makes a lot more more sense. The only advantage to a hybrid has over a pure electric is that you won’t need to use a rapid charger en route. If you can do 95% of your charging at home and are happy with a long journey taking slightly longer than it might in a PHEV then a BEV makes more sense.
If you constantly drive long distances and don’t want to spend time charging en route I would opt of a pure ICE vehicle.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 22 Jun 22 at 10:31
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>> Your driving needs would point to and ICE vehicle as best fulfilling your needs. I
>> don’t think a plug in hybrid would be your ideal choice.
A hybrid falls into a very wide use band, and is the ideal solution for a lot of people, Which is why they sell so well. A hybrid would suit me perfectly, and would happily swap my 540i touring for a 530e touring. Had it been available when I bought mine, I would have had one.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 22 Jun 22 at 10:42
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And if it's the same drivetrain as the 330e you'd have been disappointed. Very disappointed. It's absolute garbage.
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the 545e which apparently is very good indeed, is not available in the Touring.
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Just by coincidence...
I sold my E Class estate in September last year, p/ex for a new Toyota Corolla (self charging) hybrid estate. Very nice, smooth, quiet, adaptive cruise etc finished up at 62mpg!
But.. so b o r i n g. No pride in ownership. Long story a little shorter, that went last week. Today I took delivery of a - would you believe - an MB E Class estate, diesel with various bells and whistles.
It's nice, I like it, it's smooth and quiet. I now have back my pride of ownership. All I have to do is wade through 580 pages of user's manual.
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Oh Well done D, but please tell me its not the 4 pot.
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OK. I won't tell you.
We don't all have your sort of money!!
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Welcome back Duncan. It was a worry there for a while, a bit like watching a man who once had had some self esteem, now wearing Crocs. Thought we’d lost you to be honest.
;-)
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>> please tell me its not the 4 pot.
You may wish to sit down...
they even make a 3-pot!
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Sorry but I love the sound of a flat six and my turbo four in the GTi sounds great to me, can't complain at all about the NVH even in my three year old Mk7.5... give me that over a weird sounding milk-float any day...
Goodwood on Friday so I'm sure there will be plenty of 'interesting' noises and smells there.
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Noise Vibration and Harshness.
The stuff 4 cylinder diesels suffer from.
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Thanks
Equally, an affiliate of BBD ( snigger)
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That’s what car radios are for isn’t it? If your car is making any noises you don’t like, just turn the volume up a bit.
;-)
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>> If your car is making any noises you don't like, just turn the volume up a bit.
What if she can reach the volume control from the passenger seat?
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>> That’s what car radios are for isn’t it? If your car is making any noises
>> you don’t like, just turn the volume up a bit.
I bow to your greater experience.......
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Anyway, Duncan, which model did you buy? New or used? Colour, trim etc? Interested to know and to get your impressions if it’s one of the newer ones.
Mine was one of the very last of the “old” ones being registered in May 2016. Still soldiering on at 180,000 so far, trouble free miles.
Occasionally, I think I should change it, but it still looks and drives like a much newer car. I’m more likely to just keep going with it until it won’t keep going I suppose. Funds are available to replace it, but of course they could just as well be channelled elsewhere or saved for a rainy day.
I’ve started to like V90s too, but that could just be an age thing.
;-)
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>> Anyway, Duncan, which model did you buy?
>>
E220D 2019 AMG Line in Obsidian Black. There is a marked improvement in refinement compared with the previous E Class. I did toy with a new one but the delivery dates were moving away and it would have been quite a chunk more money.
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You could start doing airport runs again.
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>> You could start doing airport runs again.
>>
Well, after I "retired", that's what I did from '93 onwards. The E Class estate is the perfect tool for the job. But I think this car is going to spend more time transporting my bike.
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>> That’s what car radios are for isn’t it?
Old technology. It's infotainment systems now. Some vehicles even have separate systems for the rear seat passengers.
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I had the E-Class 220d estate but not in AMG spec. Best car I have used for years apart from the seats that I could not get on with on long runs (nor could any passengers in the front either). Very odd.
Now have a Volvo V90 T6 Recharge plug-in hybrid.
Interestingly Volvo claimed 36 miles electric range but only says it will do 25 on the dash when fully charged (I had it checked but was told "they all do that sir"). Not so happy.
In the winter I would get circa 18-20 miles on my 12 mile each way commute with the petrol engine only stepping in for the last few miles as it's a gentle run. Now the weather is warmer I can get at least the 25 miles, some times a very few more.
For my commute and company car tax this is fine and works well, but if I need to do an occasional longer or more spirited run then I have the assurance of the 253hp petrol engine (battery motor adds 87 = 340bhp total but it feels no-where near that powerful).
It's a nice car. Probably as good as the Merc (because the seats are not crippling me...) but with a smaller boot that is not as practical, but that is only an issue once or twice a year. Touch-screen dash is another slight negative, but superb Google sat-nav system makes up for this.
I don't have a charging station. I just use a 3-pin plug socket that's under cover. Plug in when I get home and unplug in the morning. Suits me fine.
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Plug in hybrids - Terry
